PDA

View Full Version : Second encounter with TSA over Behavioral Screening program




Anti Federalist
09-14-2011, 11:58 AM
The following is a transcript of my second encounter with this new "program". (http://www.boston.com/Boston/businessupdates/2011/08/logan-beef-behavior-detection-screening/T7ciqvPSoqZqgYFvBwIhOP/index.html)

The first one did not go so well, with mostly a confused response and a veiled threat of not being able to fly.

I'm thinking that perhaps there is some pushback, because as soon as it became clear that I was going to make trouble over this, a script went into play.



Me - walking up to TSA functionary at A terminal, Logan.

TSA - Good afternoon sir, after checking your boarding pass, I will be asking you a few questions about your travel plans today.

Me - Let me stop you right there. You are a federal officer, are you not?

TSA - Yes sir.

Me - You are aware then, that anything I say to you can be used against me, even if innocent of any other charges?

TSA - Well sir, I don't think that applies in this case.

Me - I'm afraid it does, even if not properly Mirandized, I can still be charged with "making false statements to a federal officer", a felony crime, even if through an innocent mistake on my part about a date or time or location. (I'm not quite sure if that's true, WRT to Miranda, but I wasn't gonna let him know that - AF)

TSA - These questions will only take a few seconds sir, and they are very simple.

Me - Not the point at all. Tell you what, what if I were to stand on my 5th Amendment right to remain silent when being questioned by a government "officer" and not answer any questions?

TSA - Oh, not a problem sir, if that's what you would like to do. It would require a hand swab for explosives and you can be on your way.

Me - OK then, that is just what I intend to do. Oh and I "opt out" of the fully body microwave scan also. Might as well get that out of the way as well.

TSA - Yes sir.



There followed the same rigmarole as always, when opting out of the porno scanners.

But it appears that word has come down from on high and some sort of "official policy" has been adopted for refuseniks standing on the constitutional rights.

If enough people push back hard enough maybe we can get the fuckers to recognize the 4th Amendment as well.

flightlesskiwi
09-14-2011, 12:01 PM
+rep.

(even though i don't fly-- good to know)

low preference guy
09-14-2011, 12:04 PM
I hate the 'rigmarole' when you opt out too.

also... tube?

CaptainAmerica
09-14-2011, 12:07 PM
+rep.

(even though i don't fly-- good to know)

I actually will never fly again because of the TSA.If they put their hands on me I'd probably instinctively deck them.

belian78
09-14-2011, 12:41 PM
I actually will never fly again because of the TSA.If they put their hands on me I'd probably instinctively deck them.

This is why I won't even consider flying, I know what I would do.

Anti Federalist
09-14-2011, 01:43 PM
This is why I won't even consider flying, I know what I would do.

Trust me, if I could get around it, I would.

My wife and kids will never fly.

But just giving up flying isn't going to change things, while in the meantime it puts decent folks out of work as ridership declines.

TSA has made it very clear they are going to bring airport style checkpoints to every form of transportation, including surface roads and public events having nothing to do with transportation.

Ripping TSA out by the root is only solution.

libertyvidz
09-14-2011, 02:15 PM
Awesome! Which airport was this? My wife had a different experience. When she flew in January it was no problem because the TSA was still on stand-down after the http://wewontfly boycott. But a few months later she was told she had to either be patted down or be scanned. She asked "Say if i choose neither?" They responded "Then we can't let you fly". She opted not to fly and I drove her 14 hours to her destination. A month or so later she got a letter from the local Homeland inSecurity head goon sent her a letter stating that she was being "investigated" for "interfering with the duties of the TSA" because she didn't go through the screening once it had "commenced". I helped her draft a letter back explaining in politically correct terms why he was full of it. She got another letter back stating that the investigation had been dropped but she was receiving a "warning". (Stinking coward. He knew we'd have ripped him a new one in court so instead he went for intimidation).

Since then we've avoided that particular airport. Surprisingly enough some airports that supposedly have scanners (like Chicago) aren't using them. We really need a good database of what the TSA is doing where. Yeah that's not a "solution", but it's helpful for those who still have to fly from time to time. Also we should patronize airports that have kicked the TSA out like Orlando Sanford.

http://gizmodo.com/5693455/orlando-airport-kicks-out-the-tsa

specialK
09-14-2011, 03:57 PM
Trust me, if I could get around it, I would.

My wife and kids will never fly.

But just giving up flying isn't going to change things, while in the meantime it puts decent folks out of work as ridership declines.

TSA has made it very clear they are going to bring airport style checkpoints to every form of transportation, including surface roads and public events having nothing to do with transportation.

Ripping TSA out by the root is only solution.

AF, as you mentioned every form of transportation, you also seem to know a lot about the rules when out at sea. As a person who is in US waters a couple times per month, I have yet to be approached by a US federal officer on the ocean, but if I am, what are my rights and do I have the same rights as a US citizen? Can they hop aboard and have a look around even though we have not landed? (This has already happened to us with Canada border patrol and Coast Guard). As a Canadian, going through US waters is the only way I can get from A to B, within Canada, due to the screwy way the border is drawn on the West Coast, so it is an ongoing concern for me.

Thanks.

Anti Federalist
09-14-2011, 05:06 PM
AF, as you mentioned every form of transportation, you also seem to know a lot about the rules when out at sea. As a person who is in US waters a couple times per month, I have yet to be approached by a US federal officer on the ocean, but if I am, what are my rights and do I have the same rights as a US citizen? Can they hop aboard and have a look around even though we have not landed? (This has already happened to us with Canada border patrol and Coast Guard). As a Canadian, going through US waters is the only way I can get from A to B, within Canada, due to the screwy way the border is drawn on the West Coast, so it is an ongoing concern for me.

Thanks.

I'll be as brief as can be, since the law on this issue is actually a convoluted mess WRT to all the different circumstances, but here's the down and dirty "bullet points".

USCG can board any US flag vessel, anywhere, at any time.

USCG can board any vessel, at any time, when that vessel is within the US EEZ (200 mile Magunson Act limits) regardless of whether you have made or intend to make, landfall in a US port.

They can search the vessel's "common areas" for contraband or safety violations with no warrant.

However they cannot search a seaman's personal area (stateroom, bunk, head, personal baggage) without a warrant or probable cause.

You do have the right to remain silent, regardless of citizenship. If you are ever arrested by US LEOs, exercise this right, even if it looks like, that by just answering the questions you may be on your way.

It's my understanding that in the case of an arrest of a foreign national on a foreign flag vessel, you are still given your Miranda warning.

RPF member Coastie, who is an actual ex-USCG LEO might be able to clarify and/or correct this information further.

Anti Federalist
09-15-2011, 11:23 AM
Or maybe AFPvet could expand on it.

CaptainAmerica
09-15-2011, 11:26 AM
Trust me, if I could get around it, I would.

My wife and kids will never fly.

But just giving up flying isn't going to change things, while in the meantime it puts decent folks out of work as ridership declines.

TSA has made it very clear they are going to bring airport style checkpoints to every form of transportation, including surface roads and public events having nothing to do with transportation.

Ripping TSA out by the root is only solution. His point is that instinctively our fists would be planted in TSA's face. The entire point I was making before him was that if a TSA agent attempted to touch me or condescend me, I would react to them and so its just better that I don't fly at all to avoid that situation.

Danke
09-15-2011, 11:27 AM
Looks like they are gearing up and will be better prepared for your next visit to an airport.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-mzFCnVzpKc

CaptainAmerica
09-15-2011, 11:36 AM
Looks like they are gearing up and will be better prepared for your next visit to an airport.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-mzFCnVzpKc I wish they could be deported.As messed up as that is, they don't belong here because they have absolutely 0 understanding about what our freedoms are about. I guess they will follow orders and continue to molest women,men,children,elderly and crippled.

belian78
09-15-2011, 11:36 AM
Ripping TSA out by the root is only solution.

If it had its own solitary root, yes that would be optimal. Unfortunately, the TSA is just a small part of a bigger monster. I'm just getting more concerned by the day that to excise that root, the first step will be the internet going silent.

CaptainAmerica
09-15-2011, 11:41 AM
If it had its own solitary root, yes that would be optimal. Unfortunately, the TSA is just a small part of a bigger monster. I'm just getting more concerned by the day that to excise that root, the first step will be the internet going silent. Have you ever heard of Infragard? Its pure fascism...and I have not heard a word about their chapter activity allover the U.S. since 2007.TSA is just the tip of the ice berg

http://www.infragard.net/

coastie
09-15-2011, 11:46 AM
I'll be as brief as can be, since the law on this issue is actually a convoluted mess WRT to all the different circumstances, but here's the down and dirty "bullet points".

USCG can board any US flag vessel, anywhere, at any time.

USCG can board any vessel, at any time, when that vessel is within the US EEZ (200 mile Magunson Act limits) regardless of whether you have made or intend to make, landfall in a US port.

They can search the vessel's "common areas" for contraband or safety violations with no warrant.

However they cannot search a seaman's personal area (stateroom, bunk, head, personal baggage) without a warrant or probable cause.

You do have the right to remain silent, regardless of citizenship. If you are ever arrested by US LEOs, exercise this right, even if it looks like, that by just answering the questions you may be on your way.

It's my understanding that in the case of an arrest of a foreign national on a foreign flag vessel, you are still given your Miranda warning.

RPF member Coastie, who is an actual ex-USCG LEO might be able to clarify and/or correct this information further.

You pretty much nailed it, AF.:cool:

ETA:

As far as foreign flagged vessels are concerned, they cannot just be searched willy nilly...There's a process that happens with those, and, in most cases, the master has the right to terminate any search consented to, at any time during the boarding, up to and including kicking the Feds off the boat.

While there are douchebag coasties out there, the majority just want to get the boarding over with and get the fuck home. In other words, we weren't concerned with searching a boat if it meant getting home that much quicker.

I'll leave you with this tidbit...in the thousands of boardings I've conducted, I never would've had probable cause to search on the TWO that I did, if it weren't for the people on the vessel opening their mouths....

Anti Federalist
09-15-2011, 11:51 AM
You pretty much nailed it, AF.:cool:

Thanks for checking into the thread, brother, and making sure I was giving correct information.

This is important shit and I'd hate to steer anybody wrong.

coastie
09-15-2011, 11:56 AM
Thanks for checking into the thread, brother, and making sure I was giving correct information.

This is important shit and I'd hate to steer anybody wrong.

No prob. As I alluded to after editing my post-it's simple. DONT TALK TO THE COPS/FEDS/COASTIES/anyotherabcarmed agent, and you should be golden.:)

Anti Federalist
09-15-2011, 12:03 PM
As far as foreign flagged vessels are concerned, they cannot just be searched willy nilly...There's a process that happens with those, and, in most cases, the master has the right to terminate any search consented to, at any time during the boarding, up to and including kicking the Feds off the boat.

But, of course, you will be denied entry to the US.

Try explaining that to the ship's owners, when you just held up 50 million dollars of refined petroleum products because you tossed off the boarding officers.

specialK
09-15-2011, 12:13 PM
You pretty much nailed it, AF.:cool:

ETA:

As far as foreign flagged vessels are concerned, they cannot just be searched willy nilly...There's a process that happens with those, and, in most cases, the master has the right to terminate any search consented to, at any time during the boarding, up to and including kicking the Feds off the boat.

While there are douchebag coasties out there, the majority just want to get the boarding over with and get the fuck home. In other words, we weren't concerned with searching a boat if it meant getting home that much quicker.

I'll leave you with this tidbit...in the thousands of boardings I've conducted, I never would've had probable cause to search on the TWO that I did, if it weren't for the people on the vessel opening their mouths....

Thanks, guys. The one time we were boarded by Canada Customs was basically our fault. We had just painted the boat and forgot to replace the registration numbers. Cruising along the border without numbers would be suspicious from their perspective, I'm sure.

One more question, if you happen to know, as foreigners, do we need to carry a valid passport to go through US waters, not land, just pass through en route? Thousands of Canadians do this everyday without a passport on BC Ferries, but I was told they were exempt because it was "commercial".

jmdrake
09-15-2011, 12:13 PM
If it had its own solitary root, yes that would be optimal. Unfortunately, the TSA is just a small part of a bigger monster. I'm just getting more concerned by the day that to excise that root, the first step will be the internet going silent.

Well ya gotta start somewhere. The TSA is the one part of the Bush crime monster that everybody is starting to agree needs to go. We need to hammer away at this. Once a critical mass has woken up not only to the fact that the TSA is bad, but that we'd be safer without them we'll be able to go after other parts of the hydra. (And yes I know this goes beyond Bush or Obama or even Clinton or that matter).

flightlesskiwi
09-15-2011, 12:13 PM
Have you ever heard of Infragard? Its pure fascism...and I have not heard a word about their chapter activity allover the U.S. since 2007.TSA is just the tip of the ice berg

http://www.infragard.net/

WTF!!??!! i detest PPPs... . spreading this website around ASAP.

Anti Federalist
09-15-2011, 01:40 PM
WTF!!??!! i detest PPPs... . spreading this website around ASAP.

Yeah, Infragard is one of the nasty ones.

So is the "preacher informant" program.

Homeland Security Enlists Clergy to Quell Public Unrest if Martial Law Ever Declared

Could martial law ever become a reality in America? Some fear any nuclear, biological or chemical attack on U.S. soil might trigger just that. KSLA News 12 has discovered that the clergy would help the government with potentially their biggest problem: Us

http://www.ksla.com/story/6937987/homeland-security-enlists-clergy-to-quell-public-unrest-if-martial-law-ever-declared?redirected=true

GunnyFreedom
09-15-2011, 02:05 PM
Looks like they are gearing up and will be better prepared for your next visit to an airport.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-mzFCnVzpKc

LOL I'm sorry, I know I'm supposed to be all skeered at the TSA taking orders and drilling like they were in the Army (the commander's bizarre hand salute with windows under his left arm like parade rest left no doubt dude was Army or Air Force) ... but they are so pathetic all I did was chortle and laugh. My Air Force JUNIOR ROTC platoon did a better job than this...

Pericles
09-15-2011, 02:44 PM
LOL I'm sorry, I know I'm supposed to be all skeered at the TSA taking orders and drilling like they were in the Army (the commander's bizarre hand salute with windows under his left arm like parade rest left no doubt dude was Army or Air Force) ... but they are so pathetic all I did was chortle and laugh. My Air Force JUNIOR ROTC platoon did a better job than this...

Not even the Air Force is that bad, or at least they weren't.

Danke
09-15-2011, 02:55 PM
LOL I'm sorry, I know I'm supposed to be all skeered at the TSA taking orders and drilling like they were in the Army (the commander's bizarre hand salute with windows under his left arm like parade rest left no doubt dude was Army or Air Force) ... but they are so pathetic all I did was chortle and laugh. My Air Force JUNIOR ROTC platoon did a better job than this...

Sounds like a job even an ex-marine could help out with and fix.

GunnyFreedom
09-15-2011, 03:08 PM
Not even the Air Force is that bad, or at least they weren't.

You ever notice how the best way to tell if a group has no idea how to drill is when their cadence speeds up dramatically at mark time or half step? left...right...left...right...left...right... -> half step march! -> left.right.left.right.left.right.

The only one who had the 1st clue how to drill was the commander, so I pegged him as prior service. WTF is he doing with his left arm during the hand salute? Maybe he was a drum major in a marching band.... :p


Sounds like a job even an ex-marine could help out with and fix.

AIN'T NO SECH DAM THANG! :mad: :D

Pericles
09-15-2011, 03:15 PM
You ever notice how the best way to tell if a group has no idea how to drill is when their cadence speeds up dramatically at mark time or half step? left...right...left...right...left...right... -> half step march! -> left.right.left.right.left.right.

The only one who had the 1st clue how to drill was the commander, so I pegged him as prior service. WTF is he doing with his left arm during the hand salute? Maybe he was a drum major in a marching band.... :p



AIN'T NO SECH DAM THANG! :mad: :D

The other thing is music with a different timing - saw a youtube of the Old Guard (3rd Inf Regt) at the victory day parade in Moscow, and the different music cadence even threw them off, and they looked bad.

GunnyFreedom
09-15-2011, 03:38 PM
The other thing is music with a different timing - saw a youtube of the Old Guard (3rd Inf Regt) at the victory day parade in Moscow, and the different music cadence even threw them off, and they looked bad.

Oh yeah, when I was setting these things up in...High School...if there was to be music, I always coordinated with the band to ensure that the music was at 120BPM or 60BPM.

The Old Guard is right up there with Marine Barracks Washington at 8th and I. I wonder if the Muscovite musicians ran their music at an off cadence on purpose to make them look bad? That's not outside the realm of how those things usually go...

ETA - Or it could be that they just used Russian/Soviet marching music. They march at something like 90BPM. Always looked funny to me, with the weird goose step and fast cadence...

CaptainAmerica
09-15-2011, 04:21 PM
WTF!!??!! i detest PPPs... . spreading this website around ASAP. INFRAGARD members were "deputized" in late 2007. I remember that the protocol was in a few news articles that the FBI deputized private sector employers and employees to shoot and kill citizens in the event of "martial law"...Im not making that one up.


the FBI actually issued a rebuttal claiming that they did not "deputize" private sector members with "Shoot to kill" authority....right. There are actually INFRAGARD instructional videos out on the web which the government made. Chapters are similar to what you would see in "hells angels". Every state has a local chapter.
http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-response-to-the-progressive-article-alleging-the-fbi-authorizes-infragard-members-to-201cshoot-to-kill201d

pcosmar
09-15-2011, 04:29 PM
ETA - Or it could be that they just used Russian/Soviet marching music. They march at something like 90BPM. Always looked funny to me, with the weird goose step and fast cadence...

Perhaps their drill and training instructor was NOT US military. That would explain some inconsistency.

And WTF is up with the Infantry Cord on the left side.

Anti Federalist
09-19-2011, 03:05 PM
Shut it down, exercise your rights!


New Security Program Causes Major Logan Jam

TSA Says It Is Trying New 'Chat Down' Procedures
POSTED: 7:37 am EDT September 16, 2011
UPDATED: 7:54 am EDT September 16, 2011

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/29203248/detail.html#ixzz1YR1Z9pLH

Anti Federalist
09-28-2011, 03:38 PM
bump