Convictions affirmed against vegans in child death

[RonPaulFanInGA]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/09/12/national/a063600D82.DTL


The Georgia Supreme Court has upheld the murder convictions and life prison sentences given to an Atlanta vegan couple who were charged with allowing their baby to starve to death.

Prosecutors said Jade Sanders and Lamont Thomas, who lived a vegan lifestyle and ate no animal products, were living in the city's Buckhead neighborhood when Jade gave birth to their son, Crown Shakur.

In April 2004, authorities said Crown died at 6 weeks old, emaciated and weighing less than four pounds.

Authorities said the child died of bronchopneumonia due to extreme malnourishment or starvation. Police said his diet consisted only of soy milk and apple juice.

[wizardwatson]

How in the hell did they determine criminal intent in this case? Without knowing the details seems wrong to me.

[aravoth]

probably because a six month old should not, ever, weigh less than a newborn baby.

[wizardwatson]

probably because a six month old should not, ever, weigh less than a newborn baby.

Yeah, but murder implies pre-meditation. Neglect, probably, manslaughter, maybe, murder is a stretch I think. But like I said, don't know the details.

[Yieu]

Why is it mentioned in the title that the family was vegan? That is 100% irrelevant information and hyperbole.

This story keeps coming back from the dead.

This is why the child died:


Authorities said the child died of bronchopneumonia due to extreme malnourishment or starvation. Police said his diet consisted only of soy milk and apple juice.

At that age you shouldn't have soy milk and apple juice. You should have mother's milk or formula.

The child's death had nothing to do with the parents being vegan, and everything to do with that they had no clue what a kid that age is supposed to eat.

[dannno]

This is just a stupid hit piece against veganism and as an un-related issue these parents are absolutely innocent of murder.

But seriously, nobody in their right mind would use this as an argument to attack veganism.

[specsaregood]

At that age you shouldn't have soy milk and apple juice. You should have mother's milk or formula.


So if you are vegan and for whatever reason you can't feed the child mother's milk, it is ok in your view to go against your beliefs and feed the child formula?

[CaptainAmerica]

RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!! sickness can cause a person to lose lots of weight, duh thats why its dangerous to be sick. WTF is wrong with this nation? This would have been headlines a few decades ago.

[wizardwatson]

How many steps away is this from being charged with murder for not vaccinating your child?

[Yieu]

This is just a stupid hit piece against veganism and as an un-related issue these parents are absolutely innocent of murder.

But seriously, nobody in their right mind would use this as an argument to attack veganism.

Indeed!


So if you are vegan and for whatever reason you can't feed the child mother's milk, it is ok in your view to go against your beliefs and feed the child formula?

Well, mother's milk is always the best option, but if for some reason that isn't an option most formulas are dairy free, so they had no excuse for using soy milk instead at that age. Formulas have things in them to emulate human breast milk which are needed at that age... soy milk does not.

[affa]

So if you are vegan and for whatever reason you can't feed the child mother's milk, it is ok in your view to go against your beliefs and feed the child formula?

the core issue here is that the baby was fed only 2 things, neither of which are fully nourishing. as many have stated, this really has nothing to do with veganism. you could feed your baby porkchops and applesauce and would still risk a devastatingly malnourished child.

there are many reasons to avoid commercially available formulas. there are many alternatives.

this is a hit piece.

[dannno]

So if you are vegan and for whatever reason you can't feed the child mother's milk, it is ok in your view to go against your beliefs and feed the child formula?

I think at LEAST 95%+ of vegans would eat animal products if they were put in a situation where they had no other choice, no vegan options were available for them for a long enough period of time. They might skip a few meals first, but then I think they'd find that maybe squeezing some milk out of a cow's tit to survive isn't so bad.

I think for most people who go that route being vegan makes them feel better eating a lot of seeds, nuts, fruits, veggies, legumes, etc, but it also makes them feel better that they didn't have to kill an animal or hold one against it's will... the reason being more to do that they don't have to kill an animal or hold it against its will rather than what they might need to do if their survival depended on it.

[specsaregood]

but if for some reason that isn't an option most formulas are dairy free,
You might have researched this more than myself; but I don't think that is true. I'm sure there are probably a few available, but not most.

[Ronulus]

Do vegans not breast feed?

[Ronpauljones]

Yeah we would need all the details to decide if this was murder, if them being vegan is relevant, etc.

[specsaregood]

the core issue here is that the baby was fed only 2 things, neither of which are fully nourishing. as many have stated, this really has nothing to do with veganism. you could feed your baby porkchops and applesauce and would still risk a devastatingly malnourished child.

there are many reasons to avoid commercially available formulas. there are many alternatives.

this is a hit piece.
Yeah, I'm not hating on vegans. I was asking because my understanding is Yieu is vegan for religious reasons; so I was wondering about his suggestion about feeding a baby formula if mother's milk is not an option.

[Working Poor]

So if you are vegan and for whatever reason you can't feed the child mother's milk, it is ok in your view to go against your beliefs and feed the child formula?

Yes. Everyone has to eat. especially children and infants.

[pcosmar]

Do vegans not breast feed?

This one didn't apparently.
I am curious where they got the Idea that apple juice and soy were good for the baby.


Yeah we would need all the details to decide if this was murder, if them being vegan is relevant, etc.

This is true. They apparently starved the child to death.
Their reasons for doing so are irrelevant.

[Yieu]

Yeah, I'm not hating on vegans. I was asking because my understanding is Yieu is vegan for religious reasons; so I was wondering about his suggestion about feeding a baby formula if mother's milk is not an option.

I'm not vegan, I drink milk, because cows are sacred. I don't think even a vegan should have a philosophical problem with feeding their child their own human milk, so there would have to be some other reason they chose not to breast feed.

As for whether dairy free baby formula exists... it does and isn't hard to find, but perhaps using the word "most" to describe how many formulas do not have dairy may have been incorrect. I certainly recommend dairy, though.

[CaptainAmerica]

This one didn't apparently.
I am curious where they got the Idea that apple juice and soy were good for the baby.



This is true. They apparently starved the child to death.
Their reasons for doing so are irrelevant. and sending them to prison is really gonna make sense?

[dannno]

Do vegans not breast feed?

Of course they do, however some women have trouble producing milk for various reasons.

[specsaregood]

I'm not vegan, I drink milk, because cows are sacred. I don't think even a vegan should have a philosophical problem with feeding their child their own human milk, so there would have to be some other reason they chose not to breast feed.

As for whether dairy free baby formula exists... it does and isn't hard to find, but perhaps using the word "most" to describe how many formulas do not have dairy may have been incorrect. I certainly recommend dairy, though.

Ok, my mistake. Carry-on.

[eduardo89]

and sending them to prison is really gonna make sense?You'd rather give them a slap on the wrist, set them free to have another child to starve?

[eduardo89]

Of course they do, however some women have trouble producing milk for various reasons.
That's a very small minority, most women (even after csection) produce enough milk to feed their child. Most women who don't produce enough or dry out are the ones who don't care about breastfeeding.

If the baby isn't being fed properly, the breasts dry out. This happened with my daughter a few months ago, her mom would pump out enough for 2 meals, then skip a meal of feeding/pumping, giving my daughter the extra she had pumped out and within a week she was dry. The body usually only produces as much as neeeded.

[Yieu]

Ok, my mistake. Carry-on.

No problem, it is very common to confuse vegans and vegetarians... it happens all the time. :) Precisely why I was just explaining to someone who was arguing against veganism that he should explain that his criticism does not apply to vegetarians.

[jmdrake]

probably because a six month old should not, ever, weigh less than a newborn baby.

Ummmmm....I think you mis-read.

In April 2004, authorities said Crown died at 6 weeks old, emaciated and weighing less than four pounds.

I don't have enough information in the initial article. But there are premature babies that are still less than 4 pounds 6 weeks out. Of course this begs the question how the baby got home from the hospital...or if they ever were in a hospital.

[dannno]

Looking into it further, vegan infant formulas are soy-based.

Soy milk is just crushed soy beans mixed with water and then drained with sugar or flavorings added in some cases.

Rather than soy milk, infant formulas contains soy protein concentrate.

It also contains supplements that take the place of what can be found in other fruits and vegetables (or algae), or dairy.

Based on ingredients I like this one, personally (although I haven't tried it myself):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Babys-Only-Soy-Toddler-Formula-Iron-Fortified-12-7-oz-/120774264897#vi-content

[jmdrake]

This one didn't apparently.
I am curious where they got the Idea that apple juice and soy were good for the baby.

This is true. They apparently starved the child to death.
Their reasons for doing so are irrelevant.

Ummmm....you realize that a lot of baby drink soy infant formula and do quite well on it?

http://similac.com/baby-formula/similac-soy-isomil

The original argument doesn't give enough information. Was the baby born premature? We're the parents giving him adult soy milk or baby soy formula? What was the educational level of the parents? (If they didn't know they had a vegan option to give their baby soy formula, why not?)

[jmdrake]

Of course they do, however some women have trouble producing milk for various reasons.

There is a growing market for human breast milk, but unfortunately it's still small and largely unknown. (As in you can't go to your local drug store and pick up a can of powdered human breast milk). Right now it's mostly a "Craigslist" thing.

[Yieu]

Well, the article says soy milk, which to me means they did not use infant soy formula which has nutrients added that infants need, similar to what is found in human milk. Adult soy milk does not have those additional nutrients that infant soy formula has, so since it appears to be soy milk that was used, it would be lacking those extra nutrients.

[specsaregood]

Ummmmm....I think you mis-read.

In April 2004, authorities said Crown died at 6 weeks old, emaciated and weighing less than four pounds.

I don't have enough information in the initial article. But there are premature babies that are still less than 4 pounds 6 weeks out. Of course this begs the question how the baby got home from the hospital...or if they ever were in a hospital.

Yeah, I think some here are mistaking this incident with a similar in france:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?285748-Vegan-parents-charged-in-death-of-baby-raised-on-mother-s-milk-facing-30-years-in-prison

[specsaregood]

//

[dannno]

Based on what? Your whole 10 minutes of research? :)

I've been researching nutrition my entire life. It doesn't take long for me to recognize a good product.

There is actually one ingredient in there that you can't get from veggie sources, and that is L-Carnitine. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that your body can in fact produce that on it's own, however.

[jmdrake]

Well, the article says soy milk, which to me means they did not use infant soy formula which has nutrients added that infants need, similar to what is found in human milk. Adult soy milk does not have those additional nutrients that infant soy formula has, so since it appears to be soy milk that was used, it would be lacking those extra nutrients.

Yes. But that raises 2 important questions.

1) Did the writer of the article know the difference? (Hopefully yes).
2) Did the parents know the difference? (Probably no).

Really, there's no reason why a vegan parent would not give their baby vegan infant formula unless they didn't know it existed or couldn't afford it. Since WIC will pay for vegan infant formula I'm betting they didn't know it existed.

[Yieu]

This story has been posted on the forum multiple times. It appears they were only only convicted of murder, with life sentences... but the Supreme Court upheld the conviction. And every time it is mentioned that the parents were vegan... and every time that information appears irrelevant.

[TinCanToNA]

You'd rather give them a slap on the wrist, set them free to have another child to starve?In fairness, they probably wouldn't let their next child starve unless they were specifically choosing soy milk to make some sort of political statement (very doubtful).

It seems clear to me from a minimalistic republican (small r) sense--"children" and humans far from any level of developmental maturity should be "protected" from neglect by law. Technically laws don't actually do much protecting, but serve to deter such action through punishing what does happen after-the-fact. I have no problem with these parents being convicted of harsh crimes for failing to provide for their offspring; obviously no one was looking out for this child, so these parents (the primary or only, on some philosophical grounds, individuals responsible for the child's well-being) should be held responsible for their actions (and inactions) which resulted in the tragic, needless death of a human.

If one believes in having any sort of law, then this should be a pretty straight-forward one along with the other basics, such as don't kill, steal, or defraud. If you philosophically oppose laws and government out of principle, then that's quite another issue altogether.


Many posters are correct, however, in that this tragedy should not and, from a logical perspective at least, cannot be used as some assault against veganism. The parents were ignorant and their ignorance simply expressed itself through the death of their child, but vegans certainly can raise children, sometimes even healthy ones.

[libertybrewcity]

stupid parents.

[MRK]

Haha I love how the excerpt suggests that newborns die without eating animals. That is so rich. If anyone believes that, they should do some research on the evolution of human nutrition. Hint: humans are best fit to digest raw foods grown naturally from the earth, as they were evolved for millenia upon millenia to do exactly that. Eating meat is a recent adaptation.

[MRK]

Not to mention, meat is going to cost more because of the 1/10th energy theory. That is, for every level of food chain is ascended to, it requires 10x more energy to achieve that level. So if you're going to eat cattle who eat grass, it's going to require 10x much more energy to feed the cattle than it is to feed the plant. If you look at the nutritional labels of vegetables, you can clearly see that if you multiply that by 10 you are getting way more of every kind of nutrition, including protein, than you would be exposing your digestive system to an unexpected, complex organism such as a freaking steroid-strapped bovine.

[Yieu]

Haha I love how the excerpt suggests that newborns die without eating animals. That is so rich.

Indeed! Because newborns shouldn't really be having anything but mother's milk or maybe formula if there is a problem with obtaining mother's milk. So to suggest a 6 week old infant should be eating animals as it is suggested in the title of the thread is patently ridiculous.

[aGameOfThrones]

stupid parents.

It should be illegal to be stupid. I propose a new law... :toady:

[Anti Federalist]

How many steps away is this from being charged with murder for not vaccinating your child?

Ah, there's the core issue of this.

Criminalization of "poor parenting" first, then of "outside the mainstream" parenting, then of anything that is outside of full and complete compliance with the state's edicts of child rearing.

In fact, mundane, maybe it will be better if you just turn them over to us right now.

Based on the facts presented, there is no way these people were guilty of first degree murder.

And get a life sentence?

Shit, you can hold a up liquor store, shoot the owner in the face, carjack a passing car and take a shot at a cop and maybe not get life.

[Rael]

Veganism is unhealthy.

[AZKing]

Lol, a hit piece on vegans. You guys listen to too much Alex Jones.

[Revolution9]

I'm not vegan, I drink milk, because cows are sacred. I don't think even a vegan should have a philosophical problem with feeding their child their own human milk, so there would have to be some other reason they chose not to breast feed.

As for whether dairy free baby formula exists... it does and isn't hard to find, but perhaps using the word "most" to describe how many formulas do not have dairy may have been incorrect. I certainly recommend dairy, though.

I was from Atlanta when they got arrested and it was all over the news. She had the baby in the bathtub if IRC. These people starved the baby to death because of a strict adherence to their lifestyle which they believed everybody should follow. They learned from hard experience that the human body needs more than fruit juice and some soy protein. Soy demineralizes and I am sure that the phytoestrogens are a big negative for a just born baby boy. For those blowing this murder charge off..do you not realize the pain this infant went through, the stomach cramps, the muscle crampings, the severe mental anguish and the physical despair that was its short sojourn? If someone forced you to starve to death would you consider it murder? torture? inhuman? or would ya'all just be fine and dandy with it?

Rev9

[Revolution9]

Ah, there's the core issue of this.

Criminalization of "poor parenting" first, then of "outside the mainstream" parenting, then of anything that is outside of full and complete compliance with the state's edicts of child rearing.

In fact, mundane, maybe it will be better if you just turn them over to us right now.

Based on the facts presented, there is no way these people were guilty of first degree murder.

And get a life sentence?

Shit, you can hold a up liquor store, shoot the owner in the face, carjack a passing car and take a shot at a cop and maybe not get life.

I agree with you mostly but this was premeditated and even after knowing the baby was going down the tubes they kept up the regime.

Rev9

[Revolution9]

Ummmmm....I think you mis-read.

In April 2004, authorities said Crown died at 6 weeks old, emaciated and weighing less than four pounds.

I don't have enough information in the initial article. But there are premature babies that are still less than 4 pounds 6 weeks out. Of course this begs the question how the baby got home from the hospital...or if they ever were in a hospital.

Bathtub baby.These folks were incompetent to the point of torturing the young soul with a very bad diet for a newborn. They wanted no interface with anyone who would tell them their choices were incorrect. They saw it happening and did nothing.

Rev9

[COpatriot]

Veganism is unhealthy.
It's also inherently self-righteous judging by a lot of the vegans I've met.

[PaulConventionWV]

This one didn't apparently.
I am curious where they got the Idea that apple juice and soy were good for the baby.

Probably the cheapest option available, and they ended up using that as a staple. I even do that sometimes, although I try not to. It is dagnerous and ignorant to do that as parents, though.


This is true. They apparently starved the child to death.
Their reasons for doing so are irrelevant.

The motives are irrelevant? Veganism is not a motive, but I have to disagree here.

[Orwell]

Life in prison?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgij552Qg81qh71uoo1_400.png

Many babies of vegan parents have died even when being breastfed. Lack of B12 in the mother's diet will do that. Too many stupid people decide to be vegan after reading something online or watching a video without fully understanding that simply eating pasta and cheerios will kill your infant.

[BrendenR]

Life in prison?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgij552Qg81qh71uoo1_400.png

Many babies of vegan parents have died even when being breastfed. Lack of B12 in the mother's diet will do that. Too many stupid people decide to be vegan after reading something online or watching a video without fully understanding that simply eating pasta and cheerios will kill your infant.

I am vegan, so is my girlfriend. We're totally aware of the issues with the diet. You can get your B12 levels tested by a blood test. If we were having a kid, we would do everything in our power to make that kid healthy, if that included feeding the baby raw steaks, so be it. A non-vegan couple could be just as ignorant as this couple to the nutritional needs of an infant, or just as neglectful.

[pcosmar]

. A non-vegan couple could be just as ignorant as this couple to the nutritional needs of an infant, or just as neglectful.
Exactly so.

I am not a vegan. But I dislike the emphasis on them being vegan for this reason. If they were guilty for starving the child, either by stupidity, ignorance, or neglect they should be charged and tried on that.
Not on their personal food choice.

[fisharmor]

It seems clear to me from a minimalistic republican (small r) sense--"children" and humans far from any level of developmental maturity should be "protected" from neglect by law. Technically laws don't actually do much protecting, but serve to deter such action through punishing what does happen after-the-fact. I have no problem with these parents being convicted of harsh crimes for failing to provide for their offspring; obviously no one was looking out for this child, so these parents (the primary or only, on some philosophical grounds, individuals responsible for the child's well-being) should be held responsible for their actions (and inactions) which resulted in the tragic, needless death of a human.

You ought, then, to spend some time explaining how it could be that in the world's first little-r republics, it was commonplace simply to throw newborns into garbage dumps or leave them on a mountainside.

[dannno]

It's also inherently self-righteous judging by a lot of the vegans I've met.

Not nearly as self-righteous as the anti-vegetarian sentiment in this thread.

You guys are fucking insane for thinking that vegetarians are inherently unhealthy when it is SO OBVIOUS that the most unhealthy people in this country are the fucking meat eaters who also happen to eat over-processed garbage all day and that is a god damn fact. There is nothing wrong with the VERY FEW meat eaters who pay attention and eat a healthy diet, but they are in are in the minority in this country. You have to be blind not to see that right in front of your face.

Get some fucking perspective. The most healthy people I know are vegetarians.

[jmdrake]

Not nearly as self-righteous as the anti-vegetarian sentiment in this thread.

You guys are fucking insane for thinking that vegetarians are inherently unhealthy when it is SO OBVIOUS that the most unhealthy people in this country are the fucking meat eaters who also happen to eat over-processed garbage all day and that is a god damn fact. There is nothing wrong with the VERY FEW meat eaters who pay attention and eat a healthy diet, but they are in are in the minority in this country. You have to be blind not to see that right in front of your face.

Get some fucking perspective. The most healthy people I know are vegetarians.

Remember that quote "When 1 dies it's a tragedy, when 1 thousand die it's a statistic"? When a meat eater's baby dies it's not news. A vegan's baby dies? It's proof positive that being a vegan/vegetarian is the worst possible thing on the planet.

[dannno]

Life in prison?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgij552Qg81qh71uoo1_400.png

Many babies of vegan parents have died even when being breastfed. Lack of B12 in the mother's diet will do that. Too many stupid people decide to be vegan after reading something online or watching a video without fully understanding that simply eating pasta and cheerios will kill your infant.

HFCS, highly processed grains, pesticides, there are all sorts of things that will kill your infant in the long-run, as another poster above said, there are all sorts of nutritionally deficient people in this country.

We have children getting physical and mental diseases up the ying-yang due to most people's horrible diets, yet here we are focusing on probably the most healthy element of society, vegetarians. Ya, they aren't all perfect. Ya, it takes a little more effort. NOBODY said being vegetarian was easy. But some people here seem to want it criminalized!! :confused: Quite the irony.

[dannno]

Remember that quote "When 1 dies it's a tragedy, when 1 thousand die it's a statistic"? When a meat eater's baby dies it's not news. A vegan's baby dies? It's proof positive that being a vegan/vegetarian is the worst possible thing on the planet.

Excellent point, that's exactly what I'm trying to say here.

[dannno]

I am vegan, so is my girlfriend. We're totally aware of the issues with the diet. You can get your B12 levels tested by a blood test. If we were having a kid, we would do everything in our power to make that kid healthy, if that included feeding the baby raw steaks, so be it. A non-vegan couple could be just as ignorant as this couple to the nutritional needs of an infant, or just as neglectful.

Exactly, there are a few outspoken vegans who seem to have the attitude that all animals are sacred and a person should die before they eat meat, even if they really don't have that attitude and it just seems that way..

However the vast majority make the decision not to eat meat not because it is wrong to do for survival but because they don't have to kill other animals or put them in a cage to survive, and they prefer not to do that to other animals. Then there is a whole 'nother subset who do it primarily for health reasons and are less concerned with the well being of animals.

[Working Poor]

I would not feed my child soy milk especially not a male. I eat mostly veggies. When my son was a child if he wanted meat i gave it to him. Vegans piss me off when they won't let a child eat meat if they want it or want consider cows milk over soy milk. The only exception I might consider is if the vegan is a second generation or more vegan. If you were not fed only veggies as a child I do not think it is right to not give a child some animal protein.

[dannno]

I would not feed my child soy milk especially not a male. I eat mostly veggies. When my son was a child if he wanted meat i gave it to him. Vegans piss me off when they won't let a child eat meat if they want it or want consider cows milk over soy milk. The only exception I might consider is if the vegan is a second generation or more vegan. If you were not fed only veggies as a child I do not think it is right to not give a child some animal protein.

My health deteriorated as a child because even though I was VERY active I ate meat and drank hormone and anti-biotic laden pasteurized milk every day. The irony is that Lisa Simpson gave me the idea to try to be vegetarian to lose weight and be more healthy but I was never able to implement it even though THAT IS WHAT I WANTED. So essentially, my parents forced me to eat meat to the detriment of my health.

I'd be weary of telling other people how to parent their children..

However I wouldn't force my child to be vegetarian, either. They certainly would have that option.

[nbhadja]

Soy milk? Breast milk is NATURAL! These parents were idiots. Soy is not even good for you anyways.

[dannno]

I would not feed my child soy milk especially not a male. I eat mostly veggies. When my son was a child if he wanted meat i gave it to him. Vegans piss me off when they won't let a child eat meat if they want it or want consider cows milk over soy milk. The only exception I might consider is if the vegan is a second generation or more vegan. If you were not fed only veggies as a child I do not think it is right to not give a child some animal protein.

And again.. I have cut soy from my diet for long periods of time and I have eaten a soy heavy diet for long periods of time, there really is NOTHING to the whole soy estrogen testosterone bullshit, at least not for me. Maybe if somebody has a condition or can't digest legumes properly.

[dannno]

Soy milk? Breast milk is NATURAL! These parents were idiots. Soy is not even good for you anyways.

Soy milk is very highly nutritious. The strongest and most healthy I've been in my life, the most testosterone I've had in my life has been when I've eaten a lot of soy. That is because soy in normal reasonable amounts doesn't affect testosterone, but gaining muscle and having energy does increase testosterone.. and that is what soy does for me.

That doesn't mean a baby should survive on soy milk, of course natural breast milk is most healthy. But organic non-GMO soy is good for at least some large percentage people.

[Yieu]

These people starved the baby to death because of a strict adherence to their lifestyle which they believed everybody should follow.

Oh come on, now you're just trolling me for a rise. The diet of the parents has nothing to do with the baby dieing, and anyone can plainly see that unless their eyes are masked with bias. The baby was malnourished because it was given soy milk instead of soy formula, although I would recommend breast milk or dairy formula and would not recommend soy for a child.

Trying to blame it on the concept of veganism can only be out of a bias against it, in an attempt to demonize it, because this case clearly has nothing at all to do with veganism.

Trying to claim that all vegans "believe everybody should follow" it is hyperbole and false.

You are the one being self-righteous and condescending here.


It's also inherently self-righteous judging by a lot of the vegans I've met.

That is an inherently self-righteous and judging thing to say because most vegans and vegetarians are not like that.

[Revolution9]

Not nearly as self-righteous as the anti-vegetarian sentiment in this thread.

You guys are fucking insane for thinking that vegetarians are inherently unhealthy when it is SO OBVIOUS that the most unhealthy people in this country are the fucking meat eaters who also happen to eat over-processed garbage all day and that is a god damn fact. There is nothing wrong with the VERY FEW meat eaters who pay attention and eat a healthy diet, but they are in are in the minority in this country. You have to be blind not to see that right in front of your face.

Get some fucking perspective. The most healthy people I know are vegetarians.

You are ranting about over processed garbage eaters. Not meateaters. Get yer shit straight pal. Get some fucking perspective.

rev9

[Revolution9]

Oh come on, now you're just trolling me for a rise. <snip drivel>

Yer so self righteously self frakking important. I had my mind made up long before I never knew of your existence. I saw these pseudo-hippies on the news the night they were arrested. If you want to rise..go ahead.. You want to defend these reprobates who watched their bathtub born infant waste away..go right ahead. Ain't no besmirchment on me.

I note you are now being condescending to COpatriot because of his personal experience and the opinion he has of it. Yet you sit right here and post prime examples of what he speaks of.

Rev9

[Working Poor]

My health deteriorated as a child because even though I was VERY active I ate meat and drank hormone and anti-biotic laden pasteurized milk every day. The irony is that Lisa Simpson gave me the idea to try to be vegetarian to lose weight and be more healthy but I was never able to implement it even though THAT IS WHAT I WANTED. So essentially, my parents forced me to eat meat to the detriment of my health.

I'd be weary of telling other people how to parent their children..

However I wouldn't force my child to be vegetarian, either. They certainly would have that option.

I have a vegan friend who's child would steal meats and milk from friends houses. To me that was just really sad. I hated milk when i was a child. I tried not to eat much meat either but sometimes I wanted to eat it. If my child wanted a steak I bought him one. I gave him organic milk when he wanted milk. I made lot of juices for him and his friends using veggies and fruits out of the garden and organic from the store. To this day my son pays attention to his diet and knows the value of eating well. I think everyone should eat as high quality food as they can afford health depends on it I think children especially need high quality food I used to eat less so I could afford to feed my son better food while he was young and I was in college.