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tapsearcher
09-11-2011, 07:59 PM
I am an advocate for human dignity in the workday, fair play, fair trade
and local value added economies in balanced geopolitical settings. Our
Tapsearch Com and Tapart News sites now number in the thousands. I
have voted for The Constitution Party candidates for more than ten
years. Many in the Constitution Party wanted to have Ron Paul as their
presidential candidate. I connect with many of Ron Paul's responses to
the problems we face today including his thoughts about the Federal
Reserve Bank. The Federal Reserve Bank is not part of our government as
the name implies, nor are there reserves to back up our money. The
Federal Reserve Bank is a super, master bank of banks and acts as a
shadow government run by an unelected official.
Presidents come and go, and all seem afraid to counteracting the Federal
Reserve. Today, interest rates and the adding of more paper money are
the major tools the Federal Reserve uses to control economic events. It
is a very fine tuned system that has become very frail in controlling
our economy. This is because our economy based on making money on money
instead of making things is burning out. Paper money needs many
manipulations to grow value and most of these money game are proving to
be worthless efforts. Former Federal Reserve Chairman Greenspan tried to
make products out of paper money and even called them money products.
Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke revealed a very important concept
when he appeared before Congress during the first stimulus debate during
the Bush era. He told Congress that the best way to use any extra
stimulus money was to buy "domestically produced goods." This statement
should have carried by all the major media channels but very few
reported about it.
At the same time the value of workers and labor has been deflated and
degraded and this value is a real asset and a much better money standard
than paper money.
The public still stands in awe of his bank of banks and shies away from
asking for an accounting of what it actually does. Millions are now
living in a silent depression with both major parties acting as one when
it comes to free trade and globalization. It should be called the
Globalist Free Traders party. I know Ron Paul is trying to correct this
but I wonder if he can do it inside the Republican party. Pres. Clinton,
Pres Bush and Pres Obama act as one when it comes to free trade and Ron
Paul is an outsider who is trying to make things happen within an
impossible situation. I hope I am wrong but doubt it. Free trade is the
major issue of our times and it has caused our economic crisis. Pres.
Obama followed in Pres Bush and Pres Clinton's footsteps and bailed out
the money changers who caused most of the problems and put them back in
charge. We need to hear more about the mess that NAFTA, GATT, the WTO
and other trade actions have created. The other problems then will
surface and fall in line with the proper priorities. Our advocacy sites
now have thousands of resources, references and articles worldwide.
Search under tapsearch.com, tapart news, tapsearcher, ray tapajna pages
and arklineart. We mix published articles and commentaries with our art
that talks. Our most popular artwork is not part of millions of
references and results on the worldwide web. Search under its title -
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Palm Mobile friendly summary url address is h xxp://www.google.com/gwt/n?u=http://tapsearch.com/tapartnews
Explore the lost worlds in the globalist free traders Flatworld at h xxp://tapsearch.com/flatworld

trey4sports
09-11-2011, 08:05 PM
Welcome! We have a lot of people with varied views on free-trade and worker rights so this should make for a great thread. Anyway, welcome to the forums and be sure to sign up for the Sept. 17th constitution day moneybomb!

Petar
09-11-2011, 08:10 PM
It's important to know the difference between actual free-trade, and things like NAFTA.

Actual free-trade requires uniform and low tariffs.

NAFTA is a complex managed-trade agreement which inevitably favours big-business, while punishing the little guy.

Cutlerzzz
09-11-2011, 08:10 PM
It's important to know the difference between actual free-trade, and things like NAFTA.

Actual free-trade requires uniform and low tariffs.

NAFTA is a complex managed-trade agreement which inevitably favours big-business, while punishing the little guy.Free Trade requires no tariffs.

Rothbardian Girl
09-11-2011, 08:25 PM
No such thing as free trade in the current society we live in. Everyone knows NAFTA has been a disaster, but that's not because it's 'free-trade'. Already been said in this thread, but I just wanted to back it up.

Petar
09-11-2011, 08:29 PM
Free Trade requires no tariffs.

Government requires some form of taxation.

Acala
09-11-2011, 08:41 PM
Government requires some form of taxation.

How about fees for services rendered. You don't want the services, you don't pay the fees. That way nobody is held a slave against their will or forced at gunpoint to "join" a community that doesn't give them any benefit for their burden.

Cutlerzzz
09-11-2011, 08:45 PM
How about fees for services rendered. You don't want the services, you don't pay the fees. That way nobody is held a slave against their will or forced at gunpoint to "join" a community that doesn't give them any benefit for their burden.+1

Get rid of taxation with user fees.

rjjflash
09-11-2011, 08:51 PM
Free Trade requires no tariffs.
This

Petar
09-11-2011, 09:11 PM
How about fees for services rendered. You don't want the services, you don't pay the fees. That way nobody is held a slave against their will or forced at gunpoint to "join" a community that doesn't give them any benefit for their burden.

If it simply consists of fees for duties rendered then it is not "government".

Government is the forceful application of authority, not something that you buy in a store.

FrankRep
09-11-2011, 09:31 PM
Free Trade in Theory and Practice (http://thenewamerican.com/economy/commentary-mainmenu-43/8880-free-trade-in-theory-and-practice)



08 September 2011 | In theory, "free trade" — trade without government interference — leads to benefits for all nations that participate, as well as all citizens, but as practiced, it is neither free nor fair.

heavenlyboy34
09-11-2011, 09:32 PM
Government requires some form of taxation.
Not necessarily. It could also run on donations. There was no income tax before 1913. The government has a program that allows citizens to donate to the treasury. Why don't you and everyone you know who agrees with you just donate to the treasury instead of insisting on taxation?

heavenlyboy34
09-11-2011, 09:35 PM
Free Trade in Theory and Practice (http://thenewamerican.com/economy/commentary-mainmenu-43/8880-free-trade-in-theory-and-practice)


08 September 2011 | In theory, "free trade" — trade without government interference — leads to benefits for all nations that participate, as well as all citizens, but as practiced, it is neither free nor fair.

http://surfwithberserk.com/img/funny/epic_fails/54.jpg

Jingles
09-11-2011, 09:38 PM
Not necessarily. It could also run on donations.

Who in their right mind would donate to keep an immoral coercive institution running? If we were to ever get to that point there would be no use for a state and we could finally have an AnCap society.

FrankRep
09-11-2011, 09:38 PM
Government requires some form of taxation.

Not necessarily. It could also run on donations. There was no income tax before 1913. The government has a program that allows citizens to donate to the treasury. Why don't you and everyone you know who agrees with you just donate to the treasury instead of insisting on taxation?

The United States is 12 Trillion dollars in debt and has a ton of entitlements to pay for.

The government can't run on "donations" in its current situation.

FrankRep
09-11-2011, 09:50 PM
http://surfwithberserk.com/img/funny/epic_fails/54.jpg

Your Anarchy utopia may work in your fantasy, but it will fail in reality.

Petar
09-11-2011, 09:56 PM
Not necessarily. It could also run on donations. There was no income tax before 1913. The government has a program that allows citizens to donate to the treasury. Why don't you and everyone you know who agrees with you just donate to the treasury instead of insisting on taxation?

There was taxation in US before 1913.


Who in their right mind would donate to keep an immoral coercive institution running? If we were to ever get to that point there would be no use for a state and we could finally have an AnCap society.

Intelligent people will gladly pay a small amount of taxation, for a small amount of government to be provided in return.

ClayTrainor
09-11-2011, 10:00 PM
Your Anarchy utopia may work in your fantasy, but it will fail in reality.

Non-Argument. Replace the word Anarchy with anything, and it becomes a baseless attack on it.

i.e. "Your Constitutionalist utopia may work in your fantasy, but it will fail in reality."

"your Conservative utopia may work in your fantasy, but it will fail in reality"

"your liberal utopia may work in your fantasy, but will fail in reality"

etc. etc. etc.


logic fail.

ClayTrainor
09-11-2011, 10:02 PM
Intelligent people will gladly pay a small amount of taxation, for a small amount of government to be provided in return.

Intelligent people will also hand a robber the money in their wallet when he points a gun to their head. That doesn't make it necessary or right, regardless of what the robber does with the money, or how "limited" of an amount he takes.

LibertyEagle
09-11-2011, 10:08 PM
This is a spam post. He's just promoting his websites. They bash capitalism, free trade, etc.

heavenlyboy34
09-11-2011, 10:08 PM
Your Anarchy utopia may work in your fantasy, but it will fail in reality.
:rolleyes: I'm not an anarchist. (Are you incapable of reading my sig?) Nice fail, though. I thought you've been around long better than to make absurd claims like this. I guess not.
http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/epic-fail-photos-fail-crane1.jpg?w=500&h=403
Keep your corrupt, fascist government to yourself, I'll take my own government, thanks (using Constitutionalism as a transition).

Petar
09-11-2011, 10:10 PM
Intelligent people will also hand a robber the money in their wallet when he points a gun to their head. That doesn't make it necessary or right, regardless of what the robber does with the money, or how "limited" of an amount he takes.

A robber randomly stealing from people does not equate to the entire concept of government.

The legitimate purpose of government is to create an entire geographical area where a system is set-up to protect the rights of individuals.

A small amount of liberty is sacrificed in order to facilitate this system, lest anarchy rear its ugly head.

LibertyEagle
09-11-2011, 10:10 PM
Keep your corrupt, fascist government to yourself, I'll take my own government, thanks.

You are an American, so you have the same government that we do.

heavenlyboy34
09-11-2011, 10:12 PM
There was taxation in US before 1913.


Incorrect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#1913_-_2010

heavenlyboy34
09-11-2011, 10:13 PM
You are an American, so you have the same government that we do.
You quoted me before my edit, sorry.:o The thrust of my post was that I prefer the Misesian notion of "government" in which nullification rights and such things are extended to individuals rather than just to states and so forth.

Petar
09-11-2011, 10:14 PM
Incorrect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#1913_-_2010

There are other forms of taxation besides income.

heavenlyboy34
09-11-2011, 10:18 PM
Who in their right mind would donate to keep an immoral coercive institution running? If we were to ever get to that point there would be no use for a state and we could finally have an AnCap society.
Probably a number of people here, and I know of many left "liberals" who would donate before they let the statists lose control over people. Indeed, Statism is a serious social illness. (when I say "statism", I mean the Rothbard/Oppenheimer/Bourne understanding of it)

heavenlyboy34
09-11-2011, 10:19 PM
There are other forms of taxation besides income.
True. But none of them are direct. (unless you know of some that I don't)

Petar
09-11-2011, 10:20 PM
Probably a number of people here, and I know of many left "liberals" who would donate before they let the statists lose control over people. Indeed, Statism is a serious social illness. (when I say "statism", I mean the Rothbard/Oppenheimer/Bourne understanding of it)

You know, there are remote jungles in the world where you can go and experience the wonders of your very own personal government...


True. But none of them are direct. (unless you know of some that I don't)

We were talking about tariffs...

FrankRep
09-11-2011, 10:24 PM
You know that there are remote jungles in the world where you can go and experience the wonders of your very own personal government...
I've been suggesting the Anarchists go buy an island and live there for a long time. I'll be curious to see how long before anarchy fails and the man with the biggest stick starts ruling.

heavenlyboy34
09-11-2011, 10:33 PM
You know, there are remote jungles in the world where you can go and experience the wonders of your very own personal government...


:rolleyes: Now you're just being silly. I shouldn't have to do that just because you don't like my freedom to choose my own government. Do you hate me for my freedomz? ;)

FrankRep
09-11-2011, 10:37 PM
:rolleyes: Now you're just being silly. I shouldn't have to do that just because you don't like my freedom to choose my own government. Do you hate me for my freedomz? ;)
Don't force your Anarchy on me. ;)

Petar
09-11-2011, 10:38 PM
:rolleyes: Now you're just being silly. I shouldn't have to do that just because you don't like my freedom to choose my own government. Do you hate me for my freedomz? ;)

You are free to pretend that you are your own government all that you want, but if you want to actually practice this fantasy in real-life, then I think you are going to have to move to a remote jungle for that experience.

Petar
09-11-2011, 10:41 PM
I've been suggesting the Anarchists go buy an island and live there for a long time. I'll be curious to see how long before anarchy fails and the man with the biggest stick starts ruling.

If only anarchists were capable of organizing...there would be a remote island full of them, and Stephan Molyneux would become elected dictator-in-chief of that particular Lord of The Flies/Apocalypse-Now scenario...

heavenlyboy34
09-11-2011, 10:42 PM
Don't force your Anarchy on me. ;)
:rolleyes: I never expressed or implied such a thing. Your reading comprehension fails again.

heavenlyboy34
09-11-2011, 10:44 PM
You are free to pretend that you are your own government all that you want, but if you want to actually practice this fantasy in real life, then I think you are going to have to move to a remote jungle for that experience.
I didn't say I am my own government. It's very clear if you had read the comment you quoted. If you're going to continue to ignore and/or misunderstand what I write, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

Petar
09-11-2011, 10:46 PM
I didn't say I am my own government. It's very clear if you had read the comment you quoted. If you're going to continue to ignore and/or misunderstand what I write, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to think that is a valid concept...my point is just that it makes no sense, and can only exist in a remote place that is far away from anyone intelligent...

*edit*

I see the confusion now, but I think that having the right to choose any government that you want is identical to being your own government.

Cutlerzzz
09-12-2011, 12:07 AM
Intelligent people will gladly pay a small amount of taxation, for a small amount of government to be provided in return.

If they'll gladly do it, why is taxation needed?

Petar
09-12-2011, 12:12 AM
If they'll gladly do it, why is taxation needed?

Because if it is optional, then it's not an authority, and therefor not government.

Cutlerzzz
09-12-2011, 12:18 AM
Because if it is optional, then it's not an authority, and therefor not government.

So toll booths aren't run by government because they are paid with user fees?

SpicyTurkey
09-12-2011, 12:20 AM
Government offers a necessary service, and that service is the protection of my rights.

Petar
09-12-2011, 12:43 AM
So toll booths aren't run by government because they are paid with user fees?

I think what me and Heavenly Boy were really discussing is the question of whether or not being subject to a nations laws, and therefore its service-fees/taxes, should be optional or mandatory.

ClayTrainor
09-12-2011, 12:50 AM
Shameless appeal to authority: :)




"The economic argument for free trade should be no more complex than the moral argument. Tariffs are taxes that penalize those who buy foreign goods.If taxes are low on imported goods, consumers benefit by being able to buy at the best price, thus saving money to buy additional goods and raise their standard of living. The competition stimulates domestic efforts and hopefully serves as an incentive to get onerous taxes and regulations reduced." - Ron Paul, March 2000

"Free trade is the process of free people engaging in market activity without government interference such as tariffs or managed-trade agreements. In a true free market, individuals and companies do business voluntarily, which means they believe they will be better off as a result of a transaction. Tariffs, taxes, and duties upset the balance, because governments add costs to the calculation which make doing business less attractive. Similarly, so-called managed trade agreements like WTO favor certain business interests and trading nations over others, which reduces the mutual benefit inherent in true free trade." - Ron Paul

"Conflicting and inconsistent views on trade policy result largely from a lack of understanding of basic economic principles. Free trade is not a zero-sum game where some countries benefit and others inevitably suffer. On the contrary, true free trade by definition benefits both parties." - Ron Paul, Feb 12, 2001

LibertyEagle
09-12-2011, 01:00 AM
And yet, when asked how he would fund the government without an income tax, he has mentioned having small tariffs.

suoulfrepus
09-12-2011, 01:01 AM
No, Ron has stated that if the income tax was abolished, the Federal government would still have revenue from tariffs and other sources. I've never heard him say that he would impose any tariffs in his ideal system.

tapsearcher
09-12-2011, 11:01 AM
My post was not a spam post. I am not against Capitalism and my 60 year work history includes several businesses of my own. As a trouble shooter supplier for major companies for computer components, I supplied China directly and accounts in Canada. I know about the global economic arena.

First of all, free trade came and ransacked the free enterprise system and the so called free market is just a code word for isolating competition and locking out small companies who believe in fair play and fair trade.

Free trade is not fair trade and it is not even trade as historically defined and practiced. It is primarily about moving production and factories from place to place for the sake of cheaper labor costs. It evolved into outsourcing and in sourcing jobs. The real commodities being traded are human beings who are put on a global block to compete with one another for the same jobs. It is not about efficiency or doing things better. It is about finding the cheapest labor possible.

The U.S. Federal Government first sponsored the moving of factories outside the U.S. starting in 1956. It was a temporary program that never ended. This was the same year that the Suez Canal Crisis exposed an international money crisis and international money sources wanted to find a way to create exporting nations out of all the debtor nations to have at least interest paid by debtor nations on a continuous basis. It was not about real world trade.
In the end, a new working poor class in the USA was created and an impoverished working class in other lands. Now even the new working class can afford the cheaper imports.
What we lost... think what you may about Donald Trump but he told the whole story quickly when he said we should put a 25 percent tax on all the products coming from China. This is about the same amount of the value, the U.S. has lost in dealing with China.

Now our economies based on making money on money instead of making things are burning out as we wait for the next big economic bubble to burst.
The value of paper money is only based on the manipulation of deals and transactions with governments acting as the brokers and dealers in the process.
Free trade did not end up growing values, it took values away from us. Actually, the value of workers and labor are a better money standard than paper money and this value has be radically deflated and degraded in a global economic arena. It is a no win situation. We now live off impoverished workers which attacks human dignity on both sides of the proposition. Workers suffer as the upper classes lose their concepts of an ideal life for all.

We now have thousands of resources and references on the worldwide web. Just search under tapsearch.com, tapart news, ray tapajna pages or arklineart. Our most popular artwork has millions of results on the worldwide web. Just search under its title on Yahoo and Google - Clinton Years American Dream Reversed. See picture and worldwide rating at http://graphicsforums.com/public/list.asp?id=1247 This is will show you the core of our economic storms. See http://tapsearch.com/clinton There is not much difference between socialism and rugged individualism when it comes to free trade. It is time to apply our social and practical philosophy to the problems of our times as I think Ron Paul is doing. It is all about human dignity in the work day. Adam Smith held work and workers as something sacred.

MRK
09-12-2011, 11:18 AM
Copy-paste much? Website-to-website issue hop and post much? It's all good i just wanted to point out for others how you got here.

tapsearcher
09-12-2011, 05:59 PM
Copy-paste much? Website-to-website issue hop and post much? It's all good i just wanted to point out for others how you got here.
I have thousands of references on the worldwide web and I seldom copy and paste much. I also usually just post to my own sites and blogs. This link will give you an idea of what my advocacies are all about. http://multiurl.com/ray-tapajna-tapsearcher I have followed Ron Paul for several years and agree with much of what he says. However, I still to not understand how human nature plays out with Liberatarians. I write about this at
Human Nature on Trial - The Rationale
http://www.therationale.com/human-nature-on-trial/ – Is it a human nature crisis more than a money crisis - Human Nature on Trial - The Rationale Quest.
Being in several different business ventures in my life, I find that the biggest problem is unfair competition with many using illegal practices . I could give an example of almost every business or job that I had. The biggest business mistake I ever made was to trust people that they would not shop them their way out of their jobs once they understood what free trade was all about. However, they did and still do. We have many free articles for all to copy to their blogs and sites as long as they keep the links intact. Our most popular one is - Lend Lease was real free trade and not chop liver as in the globalist free trade world. See http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=Ray_Tapajna
Search under Tapart News, Tapsearch.com, tapsearcher, arklineart or ray tapajna pages Being at it since 1992 and online since 1998, I have thousands of references and resources.