Need stories on people shot/jailed behind petty garbage

[GunnyFreedom]

I know there are bunches of them, I see them all the time. I'm wrangling a new committee and will have trouble finding the time. Plus the conference on harm reduction tomorrow and the guy on marriage Friday. I'm booked solid.

Had a twitter argument during the debate with someone in Raleigh. I explained that ALL law is ultimately backed by deadly force. He doesn't believe it at all. Not even a little bit. Think's I'm mad as a hatter for even postulating such a thing. He thinks that all law is backed by the Constitution which is more powerful than deadly force.

Fella says he's dropping by the office next week, so I would like to offer source material.

Specifically:

Truancy/CPS cases that escalate out of control and end up with people shot or in jail.

Minor infractions (tickets, jaywalking etc) where people refuse to pay the fines, resist the bench warrant, and end up shot or in jail.

Detailed explanations referring to real-world cases demonstrating how all law from minor to major is backed by deadly force will be extraordinarily helpful.

[GunnyFreedom]

Yeah, harm reduction conference tomorrow (legalizing needles to reduce infectious diseases) Christians against the marriage amendment Friday, Tar River Festival Saturday, some sort of 9/11 thing Sunday, and session on Monday. geesh

[bkreigh]

Anti Federalist seems to have be on top of this stuff. Id message him Gunny

[fisharmor]

Irwin Schiff?
Same vein - Edward and Elaine Brown

ETA: Also Tommy Chong. Watch "AKA Tommy Chong" on Netflix some time. Entrapment followed by 9 months in prison, which was agreed to only so that federal prosecutors wouldn't go after his family... for selling glass pipes to Pennsylvania.

[GunnyFreedom]

Anti Federalist seems to have be on top of this stuff. Id message him Gunny

He put together the last big list of police errors. Errors don't work in this debate, and I don't want to ask the same poor guy to do all this work again and again and again. It has to be demonstrated that the system is "working as intended" when petty offenders end up dead. So "mistakes" don't count.


Irwin Schiff?

I like the example personally, but a blue-pill person will not consider income tax evasion a minor infraction. In fact the guy would probably say that they should have set the dogs on him to chew him to death. You know how bluepillers think.

[GunnyFreedom]

http://articles.latimes.com/1997-04-28/local/me-53356_1_west-covina-police-officer


Jaywalker Who Was Fatally Shot by Officer Is Identified
April 28, 1997|By a Times Staff Writer

An unarmed jaywalker shot dead in West Covina over the weekend when police mistakenly thought he was reaching for a gun was identified on Sunday as 18-year-old Dwight Stiggins of Los Angeles, sheriff's officials said.

No further information was available Sunday about the shooting or about Stiggins, who ran Saturday morning when a still-unidentified West Covina police officer stopped him for jaywalking.


Stiggins, who authorities said was reaching into his waistband after a chase, was found only to be carrying cookies, some papers and a Bible when he was shot in the 400 block of Mangate Avenue, in the unincorporated Los Angeles County area of Valinda.

The West Covina Police Department referred calls to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, which is investigating the shooting.

The incident began at 9:30 a.m. Saturday when the West Covina officer saw Stiggins jaywalk across Azusa Avenue at Temple Avenue. When the officer attempted to advise him of the violation, the man ran, said Sheriff's Deputy Michael Irving.

After a chase, Stiggins was cornered and forced to the ground on Mangate Avenue. Then, as other police officers converged on the scene, he broke away and ran, bending over and reaching in the front of his pants, authorities said.

The officer fired, hitting the man in the torso. He was taken to Queen of the Valley Hospital in West Covina, where he was pronounced dead.

[KCIndy]

Well, he wasn't shot, but an 80 year old man was fined $2,000 and sentenced to 90 days in jail...

For re-shingling his roof.


http://www.keyc.tv/story/15176536/jackson-man-jailed-for-shingling



The shingles that Andrew Espey put up two years ago are holding up well, but the legal battle that came with them is far from over.

It all started when Espey decided to re–shingle his roof after discovering a leak.

Espey says, "The building inspector came along and told me I couldn't do it. He told me I had to quit and take off the shingles and start over because they have a code."

A Minnesota state residential code says that new asphalt shingles cannot be installed without first removing exist shingles, and on one section of the roof Espey was installing new shingles over the old.

Espey says, "They didn't tell me I couldn't overlay shingles when I got my permit...I didn't even know they had such a code."

The city served him a stop work order, but he ignored it and finished the job.

Espey says, "I was kind of getting disturbed a little bit, somebody telling me what I can do on my home."

Nevertheless, on March of last year he was found guilty of four counts of violating building code and two counts of violating a stop work order, fined over $2000 and sentenced to 90 days in jail, 60 with good behavior.

[GunnyFreedom]

Well, he wasn't shot, but an 80 year old man was fined $2,000 and sentenced to 90 days in jail...

For re-shingling his roof.


http://www.keyc.tv/story/15176536/jackson-man-jailed-for-shingling

Nice, prison for petty BS. And if he had ignored the arrest warrant then what? Enforcement officers with guns come after him.

[Anti Federalist]

He put together the last big list of police errors. Errors don't work in this debate, and I don't want to ask the same poor guy to do all this work again and again and again. It has to be demonstrated that the system is "working as intended" when petty offenders end up dead. So "mistakes" don't count.

Brother, all you have to do is ask.

But I'm not sure what you're looking for.

Death/Tasering for minor offenses or no offense at all because of the force continuum engagements?

Give me one specific example and I'll see what I can round up.

[Anti Federalist]

Man Facing 75 Years In Jail For Recording The Police; Illinois Assistant AG Says No Right To Record Police

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110902/04163415790/man-facing-75-years-jail-recording-police-illinois-assistant-ag-says-no-right-to-record-police.shtml

[Mahkato]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut/top/?sort=top&t=year

[ClayTrainor]

Detailed explanations referring to real-world cases demonstrating how all law from minor to major is backed by deadly force will be extraordinarily helpful.

Not sure if this is the best example... but this is what popped into my head reading this thread FWIW...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHucgvNh4B0

[GunnyFreedom]

Brother, all you have to do is ask.

But I'm not sure what you're looking for.

Death/Tasering for minor offenses or no offense at all because of the force continuum engagements?

Give me one specific example and I'll see what I can round up.

Specifically, something like

parent refuses to have child vaccinated so they don't let child in school. therefore CPS pursues child/parent for truancy, eventually decides to remove child, parent resists and is shot/killed/jailed

Jaywalker gets citation(s) minor infraction(s) for whatever mundane thing, but refuses to participate in the system. Eventually a bench warrant is issued and the police go after him, he basically says F-U I'm not playing and guy ends up shot/dead/jailed

Something ridiculously stupid minor that led to something ridiculously stupid major, where by all accounts the system worked as intended.

The premise I am trying to back up is that "all law is backed by lethal force."

From jaywalking to 1st degree murder. ALL law is backed by guns, period.

I think the raw milk raids are probably another good example in this set.

Something stupid (selling raw milk to consenting adults) leads to something drastic (armed federal officers bursting in with loaded machine guns) and by all accounts the system worked exactly as intended.

The notion that "all law is backed by guns" is a primary tenant of libertarian/minarchist/antistatist/anarchist philosophy. This guy think's I'm insane for saying that.

His argument was that no such examples exist. "Name one person, just one person who got shot for jaywalking!" he was trying to demonstrate that some laws are NOT backed by deadly force by saying that no jaywalker has ever been properly killed by the law.

I believe that ALL laws are backed by deadly force, even jaywalking. We can make the logical connection easily enough. Jaywalker. ignores citations. receives bench warrant. scofflaw resists the police enforcing the bench warrant. Jaywalker dies.

The logical chain is easy enough to demonstrate, but he won't see it until he sees examples of this sort of chain happening in the real world.

[KCIndy]

Let's not forget those villainous grade school criminal masterminds, either:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/kdvr-police-handcuff-escort-autistic-boy-to-hospital-20110818,0,419652.story



POLICE TAKE AUTISTIC BOY TO HOSPITAL IN HANDCUFFS

DENVER – Seeing her 8-year-old son in handcuffs and being escorted by Denver Police into Children’s Hospital was a sight a mother wasn’t prepared to watch.

“That was something I was just not prepared to see, my 8-year-old son in handcuffs,” says the boy’s mother, Raiko. She doesn’t want her family’s last name disclosed.

Her son has been diagnosed with autism, and she took a picture of his hands cuffed tightly behind his back as he was walking into the hospital.

She says her son was riding the bus home from school when something triggered an outburst.

The driver took him back to the school and the parents were notified.

Raiko says when she got to the school her son was surrounded by adults, including Denver Public Schools security and two Denver Police officers.


Edit: The story continues, and it's worth reading. A bunch of cops ganging up on an 8 year old kid. Those are some real he-men, I tell ya... :mad::mad::mad:

[GunnyFreedom]

Not sure if this is the best example... but this is what popped into my head reading this thread FWIW...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHucgvNh4B0

It's a hard-core sheeple I'm dealing with. What set him off was Paul's comments on Gardasil, dude believes that the government should have the right to force-vaccinate children "for societies own good." I'd guess this guy would probably think Ian didn't get punished enough, since police are our armed overlords for everyone's good an all that lunacy. :( You know how the average Joe thinks about the sacredness of cops and how we can't obstruct them without consequences, this guy is a bit worse than the average Joe.

[Anti Federalist]

The notion that "all law is backed by guns" is a primary tenant of libertarian/minarchist/antistatist/anarchist philosophy. This guy think's I'm insane for saying that.

Good God Gunny, how can anybody deny that?

Of course, failure to comply with any law, once "on the radar", will always and eventually lead to men with guns either taking you to prison or killing you.

I'll post a bunch for you.

I'm sure others will too.

[Anti Federalist]

It's a hard-core sheeple I'm dealing with. What set him off was Paul's comments on Gardasil, dude believes that the government should have the right to force-vaccinate children "for societies own good." I'd guess this guy would probably think Ian didn't get punished enough, since police are our armed overlords for everyone's good an all that lunacy. :( You know how the average Joe thinks about the sacredness of cops and how we can't obstruct them without consequences, this guy is a bit worse than the average Joe.

Well, I'm not sure that there is anything you can say to someone who thinks government has a right to forcibly inject you against your will.

Hitler wins again.

[GunnyFreedom]

Man Facing 75 Years In Jail For Recording The Police; Illinois Assistant AG Says No Right To Record Police

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110902/04163415790/man-facing-75-years-jail-recording-police-illinois-assistant-ag-says-no-right-to-record-police.shtml

That's bloody f'n insane. I'll file it, because I think it'll be important to the next set of police state stories I need. Not sure it will help prove the basic premise that "all law (no matter how minor) is backed by guns." Seems to me that this story proves there are unintended consequences to bad law, and that the Illinois General Assembly is failing to do it's job, and that the Illinois judicial system is FUBAR.

[ClayTrainor]

It's a hard-core sheeple I'm dealing with. What set him off was Paul's comments on Gardasil, dude believes that the government should have the right to force-vaccinate children "for societies own good." I'd guess this guy would probably think Ian didn't get punished enough, since police are our armed overlords for everyone's good an all that lunacy. :( You know how the average Joe thinks about the sacredness of cops and how we can't obstruct them without consequences, this guy is a bit worse than the average Joe.

Sounds like exactly the type of individual I try to avoid. :o

Do you think there is a chance that this person can be reasoned with?

[GunnyFreedom]

Well, I'm not sure that there is anything you can say to someone who thinks government has a right to forcibly inject you against your will.

Hitler wins again.

All I really need to do is hand him a short stack of paper when he comes for a visit next week. It my not be the keystone brick in his arch, but it's awful close. I can generally sense when certain core misconceptions are at the foundation of an entire fantasy worldview. The whole house of cards won't go tumbling down in a day, mind you, but you remove the keystone and over the course of...hell I dunno maybe a year? the whole mess starts eroding without the underpinning structure to sustain it.

He's basically OK with all these laws because laws are harmless, you see. They aren't backed by violence, they are just backed by an idea. The Constitution. I'm a Constitutionalist and that's obviously nonsense. My comment was, "great, so the next time I'm faced by an armed robber I should try handing him a Constitution and seeing how that works?"

His misconception that laws are basically harmless is either the, or near the keystone in his belief structure. Remove the keystone, and the whole thing WILL eventually come tumbling down. Even if it takes a year to do it. You know how it goes, start noticing little things that just don't fit into the fantasy anymore, little by little...

[GunnyFreedom]

Sounds like exactly the type of individual I try to avoid. :o

Do you think there is a chance that this person can be reasoned with?

No, not reasoned with, my goal is not to reason with him, but to remove the most essential piece of the false belief structure I can access and let nature take it's course.

It's like a building near a river. It may stand for 1000 years. Take a specific chunk out of a retaining wall and 5 years later it's half submerged rubble. The reason I'm keen on this is because I found the chunk that needs to go.

[GunnyFreedom]

Well, I'm not sure that there is anything you can say to someone who thinks government has a right to forcibly inject you against your will.

Hitler wins again.

he thinks it's ok because law isn't violence, it's just an idea. He's horrified at the idea of holding a gun to parent's head and forcing them to have their children stuck by a needle. I mean purely horrified at the thought. But take the gun away and it's perfectly OK. A good idea even. I want to show him that there is no such thing as taking the gun away.

[GunnyFreedom]

Let's not forget those villainous grade school criminal masterminds, either:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/kdvr-police-handcuff-escort-autistic-boy-to-hospital-20110818,0,419652.story



Edit: The story continues, and it's worth reading. A bunch of cops ganging up on an 8 year old kid. Those are some real he-men, I tell ya... :mad::mad::mad:

SERIOUS abuse of force. Child committed no infraction or violation though. Demonstrates overreaction and can topically be used beside the 75 years for videotaping to demonstrate that the justice system OFTEN uses excessive force/punishment. Demonstrate that the 8th Amendment is still an issue. Probably won't talk to the basic premise that law = guns though.

thanks, I appreciate it a whole bunch

[GunnyFreedom]

Good God Gunny, how can anybody deny that?

Of course, failure to comply with any law, once "on the radar", will always and eventually lead to men with guns either taking you to prison or killing you.

I'll post a bunch for you.

I'm sure others will too.

Yeah, I don't get it either. That was my first clue that something was amiss in wonderland, actually. I eventually found out that his support for the various and sundry other things that law may require, was DEPENDANT on his ability to deny that. Start shaking the law = guns cage and there were tremors (ETA - serious cognitive dissonance became visible) in his whole thought structure. That's how I narrowed it down to that point being either the keystone or awful close to the keystone for the entire structure.

Remove that one fantasy, and eventually nature will take the whole thing down by gravity alone. won't happen in a day, but I know enough about how these things work to know without that one piece his whole meticulously constructed fantasy world is finished.

[KCIndy]

he thinks it's ok because law isn't violence, it's just an idea. He's horrified at the idea of holding a gun to parent's head and forcing them to have their children stuck by a needle. I mean purely horrified at the thought. But take the gun away and it's perfectly OK. A good idea even. I want to show him that there is no such thing as taking the gun away.


People with that sort of mindset really puzzle me. Have they not thought through the logical - and almost 100% probable - course of events if someone disagrees with "the law" and resists by refusing to comply?

The obvious result of resisting law enforcement is arrest.

If I refuse to be arrested, I will be subdued by force, including batons, tazing and firearms.

Such force is, by definition, violence.

The government enforces its will (laws) by using force (violence) to make us comply.


I'm not sure it's really worth a lot of your time to be debating with someone so intractable. As a friend of my used to say, "...his mind is like concrete: all mixed up and permanently set."

Good luck with this guy.

[GunnyFreedom]

People with that sort of mindset really puzzle me. Have they not thought through the logical - and almost 100% probable - course of events if someone disagrees with "the law" and resists by refusing to comply?

The obvious result of resisting law enforcement is arrest.

If I refuse to be arrested, I will be subdued by force, including batons, tazing and firearms.

Such force is, by definition, violence.

The government enforces its will (laws) by using force (violence) to make us comply.


I'm not sure it's really worth a lot of your time to be debating with someone so intractable. As a friend of my used to say, "...his mind is like concrete: all mixed up and permanently set."

Good luck with this guy.

I'm not debating with him. I'm removing a single brick from the arch and letting nature take it's course.

you never. NEVER 'convert' someone by debate. (well, almost never. I'm sure it happens, but most people don't have that much integrity).

I don't usually work on people this fixed, but when you can identify the one specific point that knits his entire fantasy together, it's too tempting not to try and pull that brick. Because if you do manage to pull that one tiny little brick, you know what happens. even it it takes time for it to happen, then result is basically inevitable.

[KCIndy]

I hope you're able to pull that brick! :D

And just for yuks:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/03/us-shooting-alligator-fake-idUSTRE7522U420110603


POLICE SHOOT FAKE ALLIGATOR

Officers in Independence, a Kansas City suburb, responded to a call on a Saturday evening about a large alligator lurking on the embankment of a pond, police spokesman Tom Gentry said Thursday.

An officer called a state conservation agent, who advised him to shoot the alligator because there was little that conservation officials could do at that time, Gentry said.

As instructed an officer shot the alligator, not once but twice, but both times the bullets bounced off -- because the alligator was made of cement.

The property owner told police later that he placed the ornamental gator by the pond to keep children away. But residents had little to fear.

"There are no alligators around here, we are too far north, it's too cold," said Bill Graham, spokesman for the Missouri Department of Conservation.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm not sure it's really worth a lot of your time to be debating with someone so intractable. As a friend of my used to say, "...his mind is like concrete: all mixed up and permanently set."

That is awesome.

I'm saying it three times and keeping that one.

[Rael]

What about Randy Weaver?

"This was compounded by Weaver's failure to appear in court to answer these charges. Weaver's original court date was Feb. 19 1991; it was changed to the following day, but Pretrial Services sent Weaver a notice citing the date as March 20. As a result, Weaver missed the hearing and a bench warrant was issued for his arrest, with the U.S. Marshals Service directed to serve it. By Feb. 27, it was widely known that Weaver had been given the wrong date. The U.S. Marshals Service wanted to allow Weaver the opportunity to show up in court on March 20, but the U.S. Attorneys Office sought a grand jury indictment on March 14 for Weaver's failure to appear. This convinced Randy and Vicki Weaver that he had no chance of a fair hearing.[6] During the March 1991 to August 1992 standoff, Weaver isolated himself on his property and became increasingly suspicious of the Federal Government, vowing to fight rather than surrender peacefully. A plan for voluntary surrender was negotiated by the Marshals Service with the Weavers during October 1991, but was refused by the U.S. Attorney involved in the case."

I'm curious why it is so important to convince this particular person?

[jmdrake]

Man tasered to death after running a stop sign.

http://gawker.com/5801168/man-tasered-to-death-after-running-stop-sign

30 extreme cases of police brutality and misconduct

http://brainz.org/30-cases-extreme-police-brutality-and-blatant-misconduct/

One of those cases in particular "21 y/o dies after being tased 19 times for 'acting strangely' outside a nightclub".

http://www.inquisitr.com/24307/man-tased-19-times-and-dies-jury-finds-force-not-excessive/

Really, search for taser deaths and you'll find all kinds of stuff. The problem is that police feel justified in using tasers in situations where no force is justified as opposed to using them only when lethal force is possibly justified. Tasing someone wielding a knife, yes. Tasing someone just because they didn't immediately comply with the "official", NO.

[GunnyFreedom]

Randy Weaver is a good one, thanks!

jmdrake, great finds. Thanks a million for all your help, RPF'ers!

Just sent the link to the thread to my Legislative Assistant to flesh out the top 10 or 15 stories to print out and have on hand.

Hopefully we can make the connection that all law boils doen to total force.

As to why this one guy is so important? He's local. May live in my impending district. probably has friends. Who vote.

This one I just found about Gardasil actually killing people is perfect too for this individual...

http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/governor-rick-perrys-gardasil-vaccine-‘mistake’-cost-girls-their-lives/

[GunnyFreedom]

Bumped for AF and a story on jailing the Amish for lacking reflectors