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View Full Version : Tonight's Republican debate may really be between 2 Texans: Paul & Perry




bobbyw24
09-07-2011, 06:33 AM
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0153915ad8f4970b-600wi
Eight Republicans will line up for the debate in the shadow of Ronald Reagan's Air Force One in his presidential library this evening.

But the most interesting debate dynamic will likely be between the two Texans onstage with the same pair of initials -- Rick Perry, the governor, and Ron Paul, the representative.

This was supposed to be the second GOP panel for Perry, the late-comer and new front-runner. But he pulled out of Sen. Jim DeMint's values forum in South Carolina Monday to fly home and be governor during the giant state's wild wildfires.

Cross-state rivals Perry and Paul have already been sniping at each other. The 11-term congressman has criticized the nation's longest-serving governor as not a real conservative and dismissing him as more of the status quo.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/09/ron-paul-rick-perry-republican-debate.html

Bruno
09-07-2011, 06:40 AM
Andrew Malcolm says:

"Tuesday Perry's surprisingly well-organized camp fired a salvo at Paul, citing his 1987 resignation letter from the Republican Party in which he criticized the president now entombed just steps from tonight's debate site."

Could use some comments to correct him that that was in response to Ron Paul's new ad about Perry's Gore-cheerleading past.

mwkaufman
09-07-2011, 06:47 AM
Perry doesn't like to debate. He won't get away with skipping all three of the September debates though. He needs to not gaffe and going after Paul is the best strategy. If he can escape Romney and Bachmann unscathed, but get to be on the Reagan side of the argument versus Paul it could be a huge boost for his campaign.

Right now Romney is closer nationally to Ron Paul in 3rd than he is to Perry in 1st, he needs to stand out in these next three debates to stay in it in Iowa. He needs to show Perry as unqualified, uneducated, and unelectable.

Paul will likely be engaged by Perry who will try to make him look foolish. Paul needs to take this opportunity and win the exchanges. He needs to make Perry look like he supports bigger spending, deficits, and taxes.

No one is going to Pawlenty this time around and waste their breath attacking Bachmann. There's nothing to be gained and none of the other candidates are going to be interested in engaging her. She can win back Perry supporters so she should go after him, if she lays back it's in a misguided belief it could gain her a vice presidential spot.

Santorum will go after Romney and Paul.

Cain might take issue with Romney.

Huntsman might try to engage Perry or Bachmann.

Newt could go after Perry, Bachmann, or Paul.

Bruno
09-07-2011, 06:54 AM
Hopefully all the other candidates will go after Perry. None of them have anything to lose except a cabinet position. If that's what they are in it for, gtf off the stage.

Havax
09-07-2011, 06:57 AM
This is probably the first time ever Ron will be asked directly (like they did with Pawlenty against Romney/Bachmann) to attack his opponent. I know they will ask him to address his criticism of him directly and it will be interesting to see how direct Ron is. Will be rather bizarre but it is an opportunity for Ron to look strong.

bluesc
09-07-2011, 07:02 AM
This is probably the first time ever Ron will be asked directly (like they did with Pawlenty against Romney/Bachmann) to attack his opponent. I know they will ask him to address his criticism of him directly and it will be interesting to see how direct Ron is. Will be rather bizarre but it is an opportunity for Ron to look strong.

I'm a little worried about it to be honest. I love Ron for having the class to not attack other people, but their ideas. He now needs to hit Rick's record. Hard. The gloves came off with Ron approving the message of that ad. Otherwise, well, we already know what the spin will be.

LibertyEagle
09-07-2011, 07:10 AM
It is Ron's moment to shine. He'll be ready.

acptulsa
09-07-2011, 07:13 AM
Yes, but I'm still loathe to see Paul attack. To do so is to elevate the status of the one he attacks, and our best bet is to leave them all looking the same because they are all the same.

I'd rather see rhetoric along the lines of, the ideals Reagan espoused are dying in this country, and we're turning into something frighteningly like the Soviet Union we fought for so long. And everyone on this stage but me has participated in that ugly transformation.

Captain Shays
09-07-2011, 07:13 AM
I have said this before and I know I'm right and I hope somebody in his campaign listens. Ron Paul KNOWS that ALL of the others will attack him on foreign policy. It's not just a matter anymore of the claim that "he blames the US for the attacks of 911". Its about "isolationism" vs "non interventionism". They are ALL interventionists who ride on the old Democrat cart of labeling any person an isolationist who doesn't buy into their style of defense which is policing the world, sticking our noses in the business of every country on the planet and maintaining an empire status ALL of which is against the strong advice of our founding fathers, not allowed in our Constitution and that most Americans disagree with it.
But since most Americans have bought into this style because we've been spoon fed it our entire lives by the media, our schools and just about every politician since Woodrow Wilson what we NEED to hear from Ron Paul in the debate and for the rest of this campaign is HOW he as president will keep us safe. We NEED to hear what he WILL do. The "experts" also want and need to hear how our non interventionist foreign policy under president Ron Paul's administration won't create dangerous vacuums around the world.We've all heard enough about what we WON'T do which is police the world. These new conservatives are not like the old conservatives. These new conservatives are more like the old Democrats who got us in this mess in the first place. The old conservatives opposed those policies and were chided as isolationists. We and the neocons NEED details of Ron Paul's and the founding fathers style of defense and they need to hear how it's superior to the presents Democrat style of defending this country. In my opinion he not only needs to focus on the other candidates as being just like Democrats in their policies but he needs to connect it to Obama who is the model for the Democrat style of national defense. What that means is meddling in Libya, supporting terrorists and propping up dictators and eventually the use of war as a means of fixing the economy. If he does this he will be propelled into first place and remain there until he's in the White House sitting back sipping tea

I wish he would couch it sort of like this simple and common sense way that ANYONE can identify with. Simply ask how we Americans would feel if there were Iranian and Syrian and Iraqi and Libyan aircraft carrier battle groups off the coast of New Jersey and California for the past 70 years? How would we like it if there were Russian and Chinese battle groups in the Gulf of Mexico? Are we to think that other countries should love us if we're in their part of the world bombing them, overthrowing their government, placing sanctions on their goods and exploiting them for their resources?
Who can make an argument against that when the idea of minding our own business runs so deep and is so ingrained in our hearts as Americans that it actually predates apple pie and baseball as being part of our thinking?

jonhowe
09-07-2011, 07:14 AM
Am I the only one that feels that "it all comes down to this"?

Are we ever going to have a second chance like this to destroy Perry and get on top?

bluesc
09-07-2011, 07:17 AM
Am I the only one that feels that "it all comes down to this"?

Are we ever going to have a second chance like this to destroy Perry and get on top?

As LibertyEagle said, this is his moment. A chance to gain national headlines, and drop Perry's support considerably. If the media won't vet Perry for the public, Ron sure can.

I am fired up.

LibertyEagle
09-07-2011, 07:17 AM
I have said this before and I know I'm right and I hope somebody in his campaign listens. Ron Paul KNOWS that ALL of the others will attack him on foreign policy. It's not just a matter anymore of the claim that "he blames the US for the attacks of 911". Its about "isolationism" vs "non interventionism". They are ALL interventionists who ride on the old Democrat cart of labeling any person an isolationist who doesn't buy into their style of defense which is policing the world, sticking our noses in the business of every country on the planet and maintaining an empire status ALL of which is against the strong advice of our founding fathers, not allowed in our Constitution and that most Americans disagree with it.
But since most Americans have bought into this style because we've been spoon fed it our entire lives by the media, our schools and just about every politician since Woodrow Wilson what we NEED to hear from Ron Paul in the debate and for the rest of this campaign is HOW he as president will keep us safe. We NEED to hear what he WILL do. We've all heard enough about what we WON'T do which is police the world. These new conservatives are not like the old conservatives. These new conservatives are more like the old Democrats who got us in this mess in the first place. The old conservatives opposed those policies and were chided as isolationists. We and the neocons NEED details of Ron Paul's and the founding fathers style of defense and they need to hear how it's superior to the presents Democrat style of defending this country. In my opinion he not only needs to focus on the other candidates as being just like Democrats in their policies but he needs to connect it to Obama who is the model for the Democrat style of national defense. If he does this he will be propelled into first place and remain there until he's in the White House sitting back sipping tea

I absolutely agree that this needs to be done.

acptulsa
09-07-2011, 07:22 AM
If he does this he will be propelled into first place and remain there until he's in the White House sitting back sipping tea

Yes, but how? It's awfully hard to sell inaction as proactive. The Hippocratic Oath, which Ron Paul took once upon a time, says Rule One is do no harm. But can people be convinced that this is enough?

The anti-imperialism argument suffers because there has been a whole lot of brainwashing for a very long time about how imperialism isn't that, but is proactive defense. For a very long time as in it was an institution when it attacked Martin Luther King, Jr. for stating the obvious and talking about how much war hurts the poor. And undoing this will take more than a thirty second sound bite.

The tale of how many WWII GIs were saved during the final stages of the war in Europe because Nazi soldiers understood that we treated their POWs better than Hitler's army treated its own soldiers might do it, but I don't know...

It's hard to attack a principled people. But it has been so long since we could lay claim to being that thing that I fear we have forgotten. It is the practical advantage to good principles like the Monroe Doctrine, but when the schools teach kids that we could have nipped Nazi-ism in the bud by being proactive they gloss over how interventionist policies of our allies fanned the flames we later had to put out.


Am I the only one that feels that "it all comes down to this"?

Are we ever going to have a second chance like this to destroy Perry and get on top?

Yes. The first primary is still months away. That said, you have a point. The surest route for us to take is to piss people off, then soothe them by explaining that this is what was needed to shake off American complacency so we can get on the right track. And that second step requires time.

If Ron Paul does make such a bold move, we had better be ready to do that second step and fast. Up until now, he has played Good Cop and we have played Bad Cop. A role reversal right now could set him apart from the crowd, let people see that he's tough enough for the job, and provide a breakthrough as the MSM abandons their He Who Must Not Be Named strategy so they can play shark feeding frenzy. If we're not ready to move quickly and decisively into the Good Cop role, though, it will all be for naught.

Simply put, this nation is turning into the Soveit Union. Now, nothing will piss the people off more than to hear that said. But, like anyone in denial, people need to realize the truth of it before they can do anything about it. So far, it has been us saying it and Ron Paul quietly saying how to stop it. If we have gotten the conversation to the point where the blow would be softened, then he can say it tonight and we can quietly say how to stop it. This could work. But we had better be ready.

bobbyw24
09-07-2011, 07:23 AM
As LibertyEagle said, this is his moment. A chance to gain national headlines, and drop Perry's support considerably. If the media won't vet Perry for the public, Ron sure can.

I am fired up.

Exactly

Ronulus
09-07-2011, 07:32 AM
Do you really think CNN is going to give ron a fair amount of time to defend himself when perry busts back at him with something like "You want iran to have nukular weapons" and "9/11 9/11 9/11"?

S.Shorland
09-07-2011, 07:33 AM
Paul's campaign had to make the headline because the media are refusing to cover him.They are also refusing to vet Perry so what choice did they have.Ron's letter of departure from the GOP shows he had the same principles then as now and that he foresaw where your country was going wrong 30 years ago.I hope Perry reads it out.

acptulsa
09-07-2011, 07:38 AM
Do you really think CNN is going to give ron a fair amount of time to defend himself when perry busts back at him with something like "You want iran to have nukular weapons" and "9/11 9/11 9/11"?

No and yes.

No, I don't want them to have nuclear weapons, but we've so richly rewarded those nations that do by treating them, at last, as equals that I'm more concerned with convincing other nations that they can be treated as sovereign by us even without nukes.

We had everything we needed to stop 9/11 and we failed to do it. This has been proven. It was an interagency failure. The problem isn't that we don't have enough government, it's that we have too much--too much abroad making people mad and too much at home putting their interagency rivlaries ahead of our security. Like Eero Saarinsen said, less is more.

The question is, can he be this succinct?

ThePursuitOfLiberty
09-07-2011, 07:44 AM
Tonight is absolutely crucial.

I truly believe tonight may be the 2012's "Rudy" moment if Ron can play his cards right when forced to address the Perry criticism.

bluesc
09-07-2011, 07:44 AM
Do you really think CNN is going to give ron a fair amount of time to defend himself when perry busts back at him with something like "You want iran to have nukular weapons" and "9/11 9/11 9/11"?

Honestly, I don't see Perry attacking Ron over Iran. It's pretty clear to anyone interested that Ron would not invade Iran to stop them developing the bomb. It was repeated to death all across the media, he has been attacked left and right for it. He may have even dropped a point or two in the polls over it, but the subject is dead. It would make Perry look like he is grasping at straws, which is exactly what he would be doing.

But you never know.

acptulsa
09-07-2011, 07:48 AM
Honestly, I don't see Perry attacking Ron over Iran. It's pretty clear to anyone interested that Ron would not invade Iran to stop them developing the bomb. It was repeated to death all across the media, he has been attacked left and right for it. He may have even dropped a point or two in the polls over it, but the subject is dead. It would make Perry look like he is grasping at straws, which is exactly what he would be doing.

But you never know.

It's an interesting question. Peace is becoming a big enough issue in this campaign that, at some point, the interventionists may feel they have to press the issue. And if they don't, then perhaps we should do it for them, as they would do it if they felt they could win by doing so...

ItsTime
09-07-2011, 07:51 AM
Ron better be ready to talk calmly and in bullet points

tfurrh
09-07-2011, 07:53 AM
Ron would not have released the ad yesterday if he wasn't ready for ANYTHING tonight. I'm looking forward to it, although I am nervous that it all works out smoothly.

acptulsa
09-07-2011, 07:55 AM
Ron would not have released the ad yesterday if he wasn't ready for ANYTHING tonight. I'm looking forward to it, although I am nervous that it all works out smoothly.

Well, one thing is certain. We had better be ready to fight the MSM spin and fight it hard tomorrow.

speciallyblend
09-07-2011, 08:00 AM
Well, one thing is certain. We had better be ready to fight the MSM spin and fight it hard tomorrow.

ps watch on a friends tv so we do not break our own tvs.

bluesc
09-07-2011, 08:03 AM
It's an interesting question. Peace is becoming a big enough issue in this campaign that, at some point, the interventionists may feel they have to press the issue. And if they don't, then perhaps we should do it for them, as they would do it if they felt they could win by doing so...

As has already be mentioned in this thread, he should concentrate on how he will improve and strengthen our national security.

IMO a good thing to bring up is: What is the easiest route for terrorists to enter the United States? Across the unsecured border. Most of the worlds heroin comes from Afghanistan, if that can make its way here from that country, why can't terrorists? Would our national security not be best served securing those borders rather than trying to eliminate that which cannot be eliminated?

Of course, I'm not sure if the Heroin comes directly from Afghanistan to South America, but the border is definitely one of the easiest ways to enter.

JohnGalt23g
09-07-2011, 08:16 AM
Andrew Malcolm says:

"Tuesday Perry's surprisingly well-organized camp fired a salvo at Paul, citing his 1987 resignation letter from the Republican Party in which he criticized the president now entombed just steps from tonight's debate site."

Could use some comments to correct him that that was in response to Ron Paul's new ad about Perry's Gore-cheerleading past.

Actually I think it works better for us if the public thinks Perry started it. Makes it look like either Ron is in Perry's weight class, or else it makes it look like Perry is punching down.

Either way, that benefit accrues to us.

Tinnuhana
09-07-2011, 08:32 AM
How long would it take to read his 1987 resignation letter out loud? Ron could invite Perry to read it. Esther and Haaman come to mind...Perry think he's taking advantage of a Paul weakness and having it totally blow up in his face.
I'm SO annoyed I can't get into Chat Room anymore (can't seem to install Java here and I can't download it at work). The debate will be tomorrow morning here.
Lots of Perry-bashing on Ed Schultz radio show today.
Anyway, I sure hope Ron has gotten some sleep before this.

matt0611
09-07-2011, 08:33 AM
Anyone know what channel and time the debate is on?

bluesc
09-07-2011, 08:40 AM
Anyone know what channel and time the debate is on?

8PM - 9:45PM ET

Live stream on msnbc.com and politico.com, airing on MSNBC AND CNBC.

BUSHLIED
09-07-2011, 11:11 AM
Ron has to respond to Perry's criticism that he ran as libertarian..shouldn't be too hard to do and in fact plays nicely into the tea-party piece. Ron can say this: in 1988 I felt the GOP had started to lose its way and I was upset that the party left me...I never left the GOP...but then in 1994 (I think) I thought the GOP was going to move back in my direction and I ran again for Congress...looked what happened in 2000....now I decided to stay within the GOP to work to bring it back to its roots of limited government and apparently the people are moving in my direction too....he has to use the attack to buttress his own position.

Then the more difficult piece for Ron would be to explain why he is attacking Perry on supporting Gore...he has to be short and sweet and hopefully have a little joke about it that will make everyone laugh (at Perry)...make him look like a fool...AL Gore? Ewww!

Jake Ralston
09-07-2011, 11:24 AM
Perry will be nervous. He doesnt know what to expect.

Lets just hope the questions he gets are not establishment "easy-to-answer" questions if you know what I mean.

Also, expect Paul to take a few pop shots, we might even have a Rudy-07 type of exchange between Paul and Perry.

acptulsa
09-07-2011, 11:25 AM
Then the more difficult piece for Ron would be to explain why he is attacking Perry on supporting Gore...he has to be short and sweet and hopefully have a little joke about it that will make everyone laugh (at Perry)...make him look like a fool...AL Gore? Ewww!

The only trick thing about that will be not insulting the memory of Reagan in the process. And since few Republicans allow themselves to remember the trivia that it was once Reagan (D), he might not even have to worry about it.

lucky_bg
09-07-2011, 11:51 AM
Do you really think CNN is going to give ron a fair amount of time to defend himself when perry busts back at him with something like "You want iran to have nukular weapons" and "9/11 9/11 9/11"?

Isn't this debate on MSNBC/CNBC?!

Join The Paul Side
09-07-2011, 12:18 PM
Ron has to respond to Perry's criticism that he ran as libertarian..shouldn't be too hard to do and in fact plays nicely into the tea-party piece. Ron can say this: in 1988 I felt the GOP had started to lose its way and I was upset that the party left me...I never left the GOP...but then in 1994 (I think) I thought the GOP was going to move back in my direction and I ran again for Congress...looked what happened in 2000....now I decided to stay within the GOP to work to bring it back to its roots of limited government and apparently the people are moving in my direction too....he has to use the attack to buttress his own position.

Then the more difficult piece for Ron would be to explain why he is attacking Perry on supporting Gore...he has to be short and sweet and hopefully have a little joke about it that will make everyone laugh (at Perry)...make him look like a fool...AL Gore? Ewww!

Let them called Ron out for running for prez as a Libertarian if that's all they got. The Perry camp are the ones that should be sticking their heads in the sand. Rick Perry palling around with Al Gore should simply be indefensible to any self respecting true conservative. :cool: