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VoteRonPaul2008
11-04-2007, 10:27 AM
Is Ron Paul against public schools converting student to Christianity?
Because he really dances around this issue. He's made speeches about how separation of church and state is unconstitutional and he's for school prayer. Has he made it very clear that he's against public schools proselytizing Christianity? He says he's a libertarian but obviously he doesn't let that get in the way of his faith.

See if it's not a federal issue then schools can evangelize, and he's okay with that?

bootstrap
11-04-2007, 10:33 AM
I heard Ron Paul interrupt someone trying to put that BS into his mouth.

He said he does not approve of government making laws to PREVENT people from voluntarily praying in schools --- and he was clear, ONLY voluntarily.

I believe Ron Paul wants everyone to be able to send their kids to schools that do exactly what they (the parents) want the schools to do.

honkywill
11-04-2007, 10:38 AM
I grew up in south east alabama.

I was in the talented and gifted program. Everyday before lunch in elementary school we had a little praise god sing alone prayer.

In 6th grade I had an English teacher announce that America was doomed if we ever stopped backing Israel because they are God's chosen people.

Looking back those are the two biggest events.

I also remember my 5th grade science teacher explaining a theory as to why humans lived longer in biblical times.

And I'm an agnostic.

Let them evangelize, it seems to work adversely.

But honestly and truly there is no reason why the fed should have it's nose in public schooling, as it should be controlled by the state, counties and communities in which these people's children are being raised.

It can be handled locally. Making it federal is making it a distraction from more important issues like the health of our economy.

VoteRonPaul2008
11-04-2007, 10:39 AM
thanks guys!

Corydoras
11-04-2007, 10:39 AM
He's about local, non-federal control of schools-- keep that in mind.

noxagol
11-04-2007, 10:42 AM
Well, he is probably against public schooling to begin with, since it isn't in the constitution, least on the federal level, and private schools do the job much better. If people were not paying such high property taxes to fund worthless, wasteful public schools they could afford private schools better. Public schools also set a minimum wage on private schools because who would work at a private school with more pressure to do a good job for a public school teachers salary?

And he is against using force to make anyone do anything. The problem is not prayer in school or not, the problem is choice. Everyone is huddled into one huge conglomerate and everyone is trying to get the place to be the way they want it. Get rid of public schools, have private schools take the place and parents will be able to send their children to a school that is much in line with what they want for their children. I could send my kids to a school that has nothing to do with religion what so ever, and the priest could send their kid to the school that teaches straight out of the bible all day long.

The real problem is choice and the lack there of. We are trying to cram too many different types of people into one place and try to get them all taught the same thing when the parents don't want certain things taught. More choices and this problem goes away.

And as an aside, he won't do away with public schooling, just the federal controls of it.

F3d
11-04-2007, 10:45 AM
....

noxagol
11-04-2007, 11:15 AM
It's in the Constitution. The states have a right to implement a public school system. How do private schools do better? Look at Japan and the other countries that do far better in education. They have a more centralized education than we do.

I mean on the federal level. And Japanese kids are hammered from the get go about discipline, which is a very big part of learning and becoming educated. American's, ehhhh, not so much. And if private schools didn't do better, why are people clamoring to get into them as well as charter schools?

Plus, there is no accountablility for teachers in public schools really. A teacher in new york sent sexually explicit emails to a female student and the school couldn't can the guy. Watch Stossels, "Stupid in America"

Zarxrax
11-04-2007, 11:30 AM
It's in the Constitution. The states have a right to implement a public school system. How do private schools do better? Look at Japan and the other countries that do far better in education. They have a more centralized education than we do.

Japan still has a lot of private schools, and I'm pretty sure kids over there have more choice in what schools they attend. Some kids work hard in middle school just to be able to go to a good high school, so they can then have a better shot at getting into a good university.

Also I think theres probably a lot of misinformation about how good Japanese schools actually are. I've heard a number of sources confirm that they pretty much just shove the kids on through each grade regardless of whether they actually learn anything. So much so, to the point that the kids can essentially drop out and not even attend school, then just show up for graduation.

/hopes to move to Japan shortly to work as an assistant English teacher.

Alien11
11-04-2007, 11:34 AM
I mean on the federal level. And Japanese kids are hammered from the get go about discipline, which is a very big part of learning and becoming educated. American's, ehhhh, not so much. And if private schools didn't do better, why are people clamoring to get into them as well as charter schools?



Living in Japan, I have noticed a lot of discipline in the schools, but much of the education they recieve i basically tailored for test taking only. They are drilled from day one about what to learn for the important examinations. That being said, they still learn a heck of lot more to use in their day to day life.

Also, there is a lot of pressure on teachers here to do the best for the students because the school loses money if their reputation is sullied in any way which I believe is ultimatley good for all parties. Parents are satisfied they are getting top quality for their dollar and students feel they are making progress. Competition I believe should extend to high schools and possible middle schools in some areas where possible.

Alien11
11-04-2007, 11:37 AM
Japan still has a lot of private schools, and I'm pretty sure kids over there have more choice in what schools they attend. Some kids work hard in middle school just to be able to go to a good high school, so they can then have a better shot at getting into a good university.

Also I think theres probably a lot of misinformation about how good Japanese schools actually are. I've heard a number of sources confirm that they pretty much just shove the kids on through each grade regardless of whether they actually learn anything. So much so, to the point that the kids can essentially drop out and not even attend school, then just show up for graduation.

/hopes to move to Japan shortly to work as an assistant English teacher.

Students get held back and they are held accountable for their own actions at the end of the day. For some schools, I wouldn't doubt what you said was true. There probably a lot, I have never noticed since I live a smaller big city in Hokkaido.

If you need some info to be an Assistant Language Teacher just PM me and I will be happy to give you some links to point you in the right direction.

noxagol
11-04-2007, 11:41 AM
Living in Japan, I have noticed a lot of discipline in the schools, but much of the education they recieve i basically tailored for test taking only. They are drilled from day one about what to learn for the important examinations. That being said, they still learn a heck of lot more to use in their day to day life.

Also, there is a lot of pressure on teachers here to do the best for the students because the school loses money if their reputation is sullied in any way which I believe is ultimatley good for all parties. Parents are satisfied they are getting top quality for their dollar and students feel they are making progress. Competition I believe should extend to high schools and possible middle schools in some areas where possible.

Yeah, the problem with our school system, if a school does poorly, it is obviously because it doesn't have enough money, so more gets pumped in. It is incentive to do a bad job because you get more money. If money were tied to students, and parents could pick which school to go to, then this would not be as big of a problem as it is.

My mom tried to get my older brother held back a grade because he was doing very poorly in school in like 5th or 6th grade and the school refused because he wasn't "failing", he was getting f's in all but one course, of which he had a d. If that isn't failing, I dont know what is. They also didn't want to hurt his self esteme by holding him back. So instead they decided to hurt it more by making him go on to harder things when he didn't even understand the easier stuff. This caused my brother to stop caring and trying and he dropped out at 16, started using drugs, got kicked out of my parents house, he became homeless for a few months, eventually joined the navy and is doing a lot better now though. That is what our schools are doing to kids.

angelatc
11-04-2007, 11:44 AM
Japan still has a lot of private schools, and I'm pretty sure kids over there have more choice in what schools they attend. Some kids work hard in middle school just to be able to go to a good high school, so they can then have a better shot at getting into a good university.

Also I think theres probably a lot of misinformation about how good Japanese schools actually are. I've heard a number of sources confirm that they pretty much just shove the kids on through each grade regardless of whether they actually learn anything. So much so, to the point that the kids can essentially drop out and not even attend school, then just show up for graduation.

/hopes to move to Japan shortly to work as an assistant English teacher.

I work as a volunteer in the school library. One of the other Moms (Japanese) there last year left around Christmas because her husband was transferred back to Japan. She was very upset that she had to leave the American school system - she said it was much better than the Japanese system. ( And the system here isn't that great. The system we had in Indiana was much better, IMHO. But this school is a "Blue Ribbon School." :( )

maiki
11-04-2007, 11:46 AM
Another note on the Japanese education system: Although good academically or on "test taking", it also promotes very different values than the American system. It doesn't value things like creativity and independence. Secondly, It places at the forefront the issue that the *primary* educators of your children are not the parents, but the Ministry of Education. Starting from kindergarten, teachers and educators do subtle or not so subtle things to inculcate the parents with the proper way of raising their children, and monitoring what they wear, what they eat, how often and how the parents are in involved with teaching even basic things like brushing their teeth or cleaning up.

The real danger with federally controlled education is just not the *quality* of education, but its character. It undermines the nature and authority of the family in raising children, and it forces a specific set of values and norms on society that the Government favors through public education.

Alien11
11-04-2007, 11:47 AM
Yeah, the problem with our school system, if a school does poorly, it is obviously because it doesn't have enough money, so more gets pumped in. It is incentive to do a bad job because you get more money. If money were tied to students, and parents could pick which school to go to, then this would not be as big of a problem as it is.

My mom tried to get my older brother held back a grade because he was doing very poorly in school in like 5th or 6th grade and the school refused because he wasn't "failing", he was getting f's in all but one course, of which he had a d. If that isn't failing, I dont know what is. They also didn't want to hurt his self esteme by holding him back. So instead they decided to hurt it more by making him go on to harder things when he didn't even understand the easier stuff. This caused my brother to stop caring and trying and he dropped out at 16, started using drugs, got kicked out of my parents house, he became homeless for a few months, eventually joined the navy and is doing a lot better now though. That is what our schools are doing to kids.

First, I would like to say I am happy your brother is serving the country and his life is back on track. That is very admirable given the set of circumstances.

Second, it is absolutley ridiculous when a school says it will hurt the student's self esteem. A school is for learning not just a place to feel good. Although with your brother, it sounded like he didn't have very much of it given those grades which makes it a shame. It is crap like that makes it so messed up. Your mom was right in trying to hold him back to give him a better chance to learn. I am glad they didn't totally screw up his life and that things are back to normal for him.

Alien11
11-04-2007, 11:51 AM
Another note on the Japanese education system: Although good academically or on "test taking", it also promotes very different values than the American system. It doesn't value things like creativity and independence. Secondly, It places at the forefront the issue that the *primary* educators of your children are not the parents, but the Ministry of Education. Starting from kindergarten, teachers and educators do subtle or not so subtle things to inculcate the parents with the proper way of raising their children, and monitoring what they wear, what they eat, how often and how the parents are in involved with teaching even basic things like brushing their teeth or cleaning up.

The real danger with federally controlled education is just not the *quality* of education, but its character. It undermines the nature and authority of the family in raising children, and it forces a specific set of values and norms on society that the Government favors through public education.

Things around have started to change in regards to that. Because of the way they were educated, many students grew lethargic when they graduated. So much so that the Japan is the only modern country to have a shrinking birthrate. Also more students have started to express themselves and be more independent since they changed the system to of a more American style which I though was a travesty.

noxagol
11-04-2007, 11:53 AM
First, I would like to say I am happy your brother is serving the country and his life is back on track. That is very admirable given the set of circumstances.

Second, it is absolutley ridiculous when a school says it will hurt the student's self esteem. A school is for learning not just a place to feel good. Although with your brother, it sounded like he didn't have very much of it given those grades which makes it a shame. It is crap like that makes it so messed up. Your mom was right in trying to hold him back to give him a better chance to learn. I am glad they didn't totally screw up his life and that things are back to normal for him.

Yeah, I brought up how public schools are a bad thing, and my parents were like, whoa! you are wrong. My mom brought this up, and I said that this is why we should not have public schools, the parent cannot make the school accountable and the parent loses control over what their child is learning. But then it shifted to, what you want only the rich to kids to learn? I need to have like an 8 hour discussion with my parents on true freedom to make them understand lol.

I also had a rough time with school, even though I am fairly smart. It was too easy, so I lost all interest in school. I could not learn what I wanted to learn, I was always waaaaay ahead of the class, and school is boring as shit. I was told how to learn, what to learn, and when to learn it. I always got in trouble because I didn't take notes, I didn't need to, instead of hurrying and scribbling everything down the teacher told us to, I just paid attention to what was being said. I got in trouble for falling asleep in class, even though my grades were fine. Only one teacher in high school didn't care what I did because I got A's on everything and she could wake me up and have me answer just about any question she asked me correctly. But the biggest thing was that I could not learn what I wanted to. I was told I had to pass x, y, z class or I would not graduate. They also didn't even teach anything close to what I wanted to learn, computer programming. So I had to wait till college to learn it. This is the biggest problem I think, students not being able to learn what they want to learn, I know that was huge with me.

Alien11
11-04-2007, 11:58 AM
Yeah, I brought up how public schools are a bad thing, and my parents were like, whoa! you are wrong. My mom brought this up, and I said that this is why we should not have public schools, the parent cannot make the school accountable and the parent loses control over what their child is learning. But then it shifted to, what you want only the rich to kids to learn? I need to have like an 8 hour discussion with my parents on true freedom to make them understand lol.

Same with my family. They still think the US is economically stable. It will take some time for them to take off their rose colored glasses. They still beleive they are free and that America is land of opportunity.

noxagol
11-04-2007, 12:07 PM
Same with my family. They still think the US is economically stable. It will take some time for them to take off their rose colored glasses. They still beleive they are free and that America is land of opportunity.

Heh, my parents know better, but are apathetic. My dad's response is, what can you do? Mine is, vote for ron paul and educate the masses. My dad is also HUGE on unions, and I know that will be a great area of contention should it come up lol.

Alien11
11-04-2007, 12:27 PM
Heh, my parents know better, but are apathetic. My dad's response is, what can you do? Mine is, vote for ron paul and educate the masses. My dad is also HUGE on unions, and I know that will be a great area of contention should it come up lol.

You can't even fire a teacher these days unless they were convicted of murder. I believe there should be teacher's union, otherwise they would get trampled on, but the beauracracy behind the current ones are so convoluted it a wonder how anyone get anything done and they pay fees every month for it! Ridiculous.

noxagol
11-04-2007, 12:32 PM
You can't even fire a teacher these days unless they were convicted of murder. I believe there should be teacher's union, otherwise they would get trampled on, but the beauracracy behind the current ones are so convoluted it a wonder how anyone get anything done and they pay fees every month for it! Ridiculous.

Yeah, I am not a big fan of unions. The idea is good, but they are basically legal mobs. An old friend of mine mother was in a construction union, she was crazy sob, and she used to brag about how her union would burn down non-union built buildings. There were a lot of hotels around here that got burned down too. On one specific site as well. Like, 3 hotels and a restaraunt over the course of like 6 years. Not to mention the thuggadry that goes on if you try to cross a picket line to work when you need to, especially bad if you are in the union and can't afford to go on strike.

The problem is that unions have special laws written for them, one that sticks out is that companies can't fire workers when they go on strike, IIRC.

Zarxrax
11-04-2007, 12:34 PM
But, getting back on topic, I think the issue of prayer and stuff in schools would be largely handled by allowing parents more choice in what school their child attends.

If I was a muslim or an atheist or something, and the school that I had to send my kid to was trying to indoctrinate them with Christian beliefs, I would probably be pissed. If there was more of an option though, I don't think it would be a problem. If this public school over here wants to have prayer every morning in the classes, I don't think thats a big problem, because I can let my kid attend this other school that doesn't have prayer. I think the school system should reflect the values of the community, and if the community is rather religious, then I think it would be wrong to force them to give up their belief during the time they go to school everyday!

noxagol
11-04-2007, 12:36 PM
But, getting back on topic, I think the issue of prayer and stuff in schools would be largely handled by allowing parents more choice in what school their child attends.

If I was a muslim or an atheist or something, and the school that I had to send my kid to was trying to indoctrinate them with Christian beliefs, I would probably be pissed. If there was more of an option though, I don't think it would be a problem. If this public school over here wants to have prayer every morning in the classes, I don't think thats a big problem, because I can let my kid attend this other school that doesn't have prayer. I think the school system should reflect the values of the community, and if the community is rather religious, then I think it would be wrong to force them to give up their belief during the time they go to school everyday!

Yeah, this was my argument. If we didn't have this one size fits all school for everyone, the problem wouldn't exist.

Alien11
11-04-2007, 12:38 PM
Yeah, this was my argument. If we didn't have this one size fits all school for everyone, the problem wouldn't exist.

Agreed

noxagol
11-04-2007, 12:42 PM
My plan for a transition would be, don't give money to the schools, give the money to the parents, scaled to have more for poor parents that rich ones, then the money goes from the parents to the school they chose. After a while, costs will come down, so you can decrease taxes. Decreased taxes let parents afford more. And while costs on education come down, you can lower the taxes that pay for them bit by bit until there isn't a tax anymore.

And as parents pay more and more percentage, they will demand better and cheaper education and give their money to the school that provides what they want. Prices go down, taxes go down, quality goes up, everyone wins.

literatim
11-04-2007, 01:48 PM
The entire concept of standards in education is just bad. Why in the world did I ever go through my years in geometry and algebra when in the end I never use it today? Save it for people who actually care about the stuff.

Karrl
11-04-2007, 01:48 PM
"He's made speeches about how separation of church and state is unconstitutional"....


I've not heard or read that before. I assume you are referring to the first amendment. Passing laws which infringe on "freedom of religious expression" is the issue.


http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/238/what-does-the-first-amendment-really-mean/

RP...."Similarly, the mythical separation of church and state doctrine has no historical or constitutional basis. Neither the language of the Constitution itself nor the legislative history reveals any mention of such separation. In fact, the authors of the First amendment- Fisher Ames and Elbridge Gerry- and the rest of the founders routinely referred to "Almighty God" in their writings, including the Declaration of Independence. It is only in the last 50 years that federal courts have perverted the meaning of the amendment and sought to unlawfully restrict religious expression. We cannot continue to permit our Constitution and our rich religious institutions to be degraded by profound misinterpretations of the Bill of Rights."

Karrl
11-04-2007, 01:58 PM
"He's made speeches about how separation of church and state is unconstitutional"....


I've not heard or read that before. I assume you are referring to the first amendment. Passing laws which infringe on "freedom of religious expression" being the issue.

Below is an excerpt. As you can see RP characterizes separation of church and state doctrine as a myth. I agree with him that there is no such thing....and until someone has devised a way to police a persons individual thought process....it would be impossible to implement.


http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/238/what-does-the-first-amendment-really-mean/

RP...."Similarly, the mythical separation of church and state doctrine has no historical or constitutional basis. Neither the language of the Constitution itself nor the legislative history reveals any mention of such separation. In fact, the authors of the First amendment- Fisher Ames and Elbridge Gerry- and the rest of the founders routinely referred to "Almighty God" in their writings, including the Declaration of Independence. It is only in the last 50 years that federal courts have perverted the meaning of the amendment and sought to unlawfully restrict religious expression. We cannot continue to permit our Constitution and our rich religious institutions to be degraded by profound misinterpretations of the Bill of Rights."

Karrl
11-04-2007, 02:13 PM
for the double post. I lost the first one trying to post it and then rewrote it.