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swiftfoxmark2
08-26-2011, 08:26 AM
Guitar Frets: Environmental Enforcement Leaves Musicians in Fear (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html)


Federal agents swooped in on Gibson Guitar Wednesday, raiding factories and offices in Memphis and Nashville, seizing several pallets of wood, electronic files and guitars. The Feds are keeping mum, but in a statement yesterday Gibson's chairman and CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz, defended his company's manufacturing policies, accusing the Justice Department of bullying the company. "The wood the government seized Wednesday is from a Forest Stewardship Council certified supplier," he said, suggesting the Feds are using the aggressive enforcement of overly broad laws to make the company cry uncle.

It isn't the first time that agents of the Fish and Wildlife Service have come knocking at the storied maker of such iconic instruments as the Les Paul electric guitar, the J-160E acoustic-electric John Lennon played, and essential jazz-boxes such as Charlie Christian's ES-150. In 2009 the Feds seized several guitars and pallets of wood from a Gibson factory, and both sides have been wrangling over the goods in a case with the delightful name "United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms."

The question in the first raid seemed to be whether Gibson had been buying illegally harvested hardwoods from protected forests, such as the Madagascar ebony that makes for such lovely fretboards. And if Gibson did knowingly import illegally harvested ebony from Madagascar, that wouldn't be a negligible offense. Peter Lowry, ebony and rosewood expert at the Missouri Botanical Garden, calls the Madagascar wood trade the "equivalent of Africa's blood diamonds." But with the new raid, the government seems to be questioning whether some wood sourced from India met every regulatory jot and tittle.

It isn't just Gibson that is sweating. Musicians who play vintage guitars and other instruments made of environmentally protected materials are worried the authorities may be coming for them next.

If you are the lucky owner of a 1920s Martin guitar, it may well be made, in part, of Brazilian rosewood. Cross an international border with an instrument made of that now-restricted wood, and you better have correct and complete documentation proving the age of the instrument. Otherwise, you could lose it to a zealous customs agent—not to mention face fines and prosecution.

John Thomas, a law professor at Quinnipiac University and a blues and ragtime guitarist, says "there's a lot of anxiety, and it's well justified." Once upon a time, he would have taken one of his vintage guitars on his travels. Now, "I don't go out of the country with a wooden guitar."

The tangled intersection of international laws is enforced through a thicket of paperwork. Recent revisions to 1900's Lacey Act require that anyone crossing the U.S. border declare every bit of flora or fauna being brought into the country. One is under "strict liability" to fill out the paperwork—and without any mistakes.

It's not enough to know that the body of your old guitar is made of spruce and maple: What's the bridge made of? If it's ebony, do you have the paperwork to show when and where that wood was harvested and when and where it was made into a bridge? Is the nut holding the strings at the guitar's headstock bone, or could it be ivory? "Even if you have no knowledge—despite Herculean efforts to obtain it—that some piece of your guitar, no matter how small, was obtained illegally, you lose your guitar forever," Prof. Thomas has written. "Oh, and you'll be fined $250 for that false (or missing) information in your Lacey Act Import Declaration."

Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique Bösendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork—which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.

There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.

Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.

Given the risks, why don't musicians just settle for the safety of carbon fiber? Some do—when concert pianist Jeffrey Sharkey moved to England two decades ago, he had Steinway replace the ivories on his piano with plastic.

Still, musicians cling to the old materials. Last year, Dick Boak, director of artist relations for C.F. Martin & Co., complained to Mother Nature News about the difficulty of getting elite guitarists to switch to instruments made from sustainable materials. "Surprisingly, musicians, who represent some of the most savvy, ecologically minded people around, are resistant to anything about changing the tone of their guitars," he said.

You could mark that up to hypocrisy—artsy do-gooders only too eager to tell others what kind of light bulbs they have to buy won't make sacrifices when it comes to their own passions. Then again, maybe it isn't hypocrisy to recognize that art makes claims significant enough to compete with environmentalists' agendas.

Of Government Man, save us from the scourge of environmentally unsound guitars [/sarcasm]

Icymudpuppy
08-26-2011, 10:15 AM
Experience shows that a managed harvest is the best way to preserve a renewable natural resource such as timber (of any variety), game, fish, furbearers, etc. The Black markets arising from complete bans have a bad history of destroying the very resource the law is trying to protect.

fisharmor
08-26-2011, 10:22 AM
You can already do time for keeping a feather from a turkey vulture that you found already dead.
I'm not surprised by anything anymore.

low preference guy
08-26-2011, 10:30 AM
insanity

WilliamC
08-26-2011, 10:45 AM
You can have my guitar when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!

Actually I don't own a guitar but I thought it would make for a cool sticker or something.

Anti Federalist
08-26-2011, 11:03 AM
First they came for the gun owners...

Then they came for the religious sects...

Then they came for the "survivalists"...

Then they came for the homeschoolers...

Then they came for the raw milk providers...

Then they came for me...

Anti Federalist
08-26-2011, 11:11 AM
Guitar Frets: Environmental Enforcement Leaves Musicians in Fear

Anybody with half a brain in their head and even semi awake, is living in fear of a government crackdown of some sort or another.

Will a time ever come when enough people say no to that fear and resist?

pcosmar
08-26-2011, 11:14 AM
Will a time ever come when enough people say no to that fear and resist?

I am honestly having my doubts.

:(

invisible
08-26-2011, 11:25 AM
Next thing you know, they'll try to ban my antique tube amplifiers too. After all, those tubes have power-hungry filaments that heat up just like light bulbs, so they're not only inefficient but surely contribute significantly to global warming as well. I don't think the gov't is going to care how good they sound, as long as there is yet something else they can fine and prosecute someone for, that's all that matters.

edit: Can't wait for Bosso and some of the other musicians here to weigh in on this thread. Also, remember forum member NH4RP? He had a great picture in his avatar of Ron Paul holding a Les Paul, and have always wondered where he got it! Time to bring that picture out and start circulating it to musicians along with this article! Perhaps this is something that could be added to the "rock show" slimjim?

GunnyFreedom
08-26-2011, 11:38 AM
Next thing you know, they'll try to ban my antique tube amplifiers too. After all, those tubes have power-hungry filaments that heat up just like light bulbs, so they're not only inefficient but surely contribute significantly to global warming as well. I don't think the gov't is going to care how good they sound, as long as there is yet something else they can fine and prosecute someone for, that's all that matters.

edit: Can't wait for Bosso and some of the other musicians here to weigh in on this thread. Also, remember forum member NH4RP? He had a great picture in his avatar of Ron Paul holding a Les Paul, and have always wondered where he got it! Time to bring that picture out and start circulating it to musicians along with this article! Perhaps this is something that could be added to the "rock show" slimjim?

NOW you done it, now they know you have one! If I had a vintage guitar tube amp in the corner of the game room, I may be hesitant to make such a thing public! :D

invisible
08-26-2011, 12:00 PM
NOW you done it, now they know you have one! If I had a vintage guitar tube amp in the corner of the game room, I may be hesitant to make such a thing public! :D

Not only that, I have two antique tube heads! One for my halfstack, one for my fullstack. :D
You still have filament-type lightbulbs in your house, don't you? Or are you afraid to admit it here, lest some democrat try to attack you for it when you're up for re-election? :eek:

1000-points-of-fright
08-26-2011, 12:04 PM
Next thing you know, they'll try to ban my antique tube amplifiers too. After all, those tubes have power-hungry filaments that heat up just like light bulbs, so they're not only inefficient but surely contribute significantly to global warming as well. I don't think the gov't is going to care how good they sound, as long as there is yet something else they can fine and prosecute someone for, that's all that matters.

I can't wait for those fancy new-fangled compact florescent tube amps! I bet they'll have awesome tone!

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c163/cholomite/CFL-tube-amp.jpg

specsaregood
08-26-2011, 12:06 PM
Get with the times folks! you don't need those silly instruments anymore, computers can simulate all those sounds. That should be good enough for everybody.

Danke
08-26-2011, 12:18 PM
Next thing you know, they'll try to ban my antique tube amplifiers too. After all, those tubes have power-hungry filaments that heat up just like light bulbs, so they're not only inefficient but surely contribute significantly to global warming as well. I don't think the gov't is going to care how good they sound, as long as there is yet something else they can fine and prosecute someone for, that's all that matters.


They have already banned ones that can play as loud as 11.

Napoleon's Shadow
08-26-2011, 12:25 PM
Please join this FaceBook page:
(I support Gibson guitars)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-Gibson-guitars/167358893338633?sk=wall#

Pericles
08-26-2011, 01:30 PM
I'd suggest that the key point here has been missed, which is:


in a case with the delightful name "United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms."

The legal fiction that things can be sued in court because they do not have the Constitutional protections people and citizens do.

It is time to sue a "certain taser and other property" in possession of the xxx police department used to violate the civil rights of [fill in name here].

heavenlyboy34
08-26-2011, 03:42 PM
Anybody with half a brain in their head and even semi awake, is living in fear of a government crackdown of some sort or another.

Will a time ever come when enough people say no to that fear and resist?
Count me among them, bro. I've got 5 guitars, a bass, a violin, a viola, a mandolin, and a pearwood recorder. I may be a target of a raid at any time. :eek: :mad:

heavenlyboy34
08-26-2011, 03:44 PM
Please join this FaceBook page:
(I support Gibson guitars)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-Gibson-guitars/167358893338633?sk=wall#
Joined, thanx. :)

specsaregood
08-26-2011, 03:48 PM
//

low preference guy
08-26-2011, 03:52 PM
Sounds like our house: 7 guitars, 1 banjo, 1 mandolin, 1 bass, 1 frenchhorn, 1 trumpet, 1 flute, 3 handdrums and maybe some other stuff I havent' discovered.

dang. are you the gifted kid?

low preference guy
08-26-2011, 03:53 PM
facebook group: I support Gibson guitars (http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-Gibson-guitars/167358893338633)

specsaregood
08-26-2011, 03:59 PM
//

low preference guy
08-26-2011, 04:00 PM
Gibson CEO speaks in a video: http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/gibson-0825-2011/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-taqM5Sk0

he talks about all the jobs they are creating and that they are exporting and how the government cracks down on them when they did nothing illegal. they estimate they lost 1 million dollars already.

CaptainAmerica
08-26-2011, 04:08 PM
Different types of wood create different tone and timber. Guitars simply cannot be made from plywood and wafer board to achieve tone quality. Individual musicians use unique electronics combined with unique exotic woods to produce unique tone and timber as well as suit their own genre of music.

heavenlyboy34
08-26-2011, 04:10 PM
Gibson CEO speaks in a video: http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/gibson-0825-2011/

he talks about all the jobs they are creating and that they are exporting and how the government cracks down on them when they did nothing illegal. they estimate they lost 1 million dollars already.
I spy a very disappointing response on that link:
"This is really a simple calculation - India has laws regarding the collection, use, and export of their natural resource. They reported an alleged violation of those laws to the US authorities, who acted on that report and confiscated the allegedly illegal goods. Gibson will have a due process right to challenge the action of the US authorities, and if the authorities and/or India cannot prove that the goods were illegally obtained (or if Gibson can prove that the goods were legally obtained), then they will get those goods returned to them.

The only politics that are actually involved here are how we as a nation interpret and respond to international legal violations. If our government discovered some unlicensed logging operation taking timber off of our land and shipping it overseas, we'd expect that India (for example) would confiscate that lumber and return it to us. We're just doing the same in reverse.
The rest of these comments have been made by idiots. "
/facepalm Idiocracy, indeed.

yoshimaroka
08-26-2011, 05:34 PM
Let's get Slash to turn this into a high profile issue. Yep, celebs have that ability whether we like it or not :)

invisible
08-26-2011, 06:44 PM
Let's get Slash to turn this into a high profile issue. Yep, celebs have that ability whether we like it or not :)

It isn't like he's the only well known Gibson player out there, either. Tons of metal guitarists use Les Paul's or Flying V's. Another notable one is Alex Lifeson of Rush, perhaps Rand will call some sort of senate hearing on this and have him testify. :D Don't forget all the jazz and blues guitarists who play those hollowbodies, too. Some of them are quite notable, too - how about BB King in front of the Senate along with Alex, too? Too bad Frank Zappa isn't still with us, he played a Les Paul once in a while, and has even had experience standing up for musicians' freedom in front of the Senate. Now, where did NH4RP find that picture in his avatar? Does anyone know?

invisible
08-26-2011, 06:47 PM
They have already banned ones that can play as loud as 11.

They didn't like us having that extra push over the cliff.

WilliamC
08-26-2011, 08:11 PM
Come to think of it Rush already has this covered in their album 2112.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzCNz8d6l6U&feature=fvsr

HOLLYWOOD
08-26-2011, 08:26 PM
I know CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz... he has always been a eco GREEN Save The Forest guy.

When we could no longer get Les Pauls with Brazilian Rosewood finger boards on the reissues it was such a bummer. This was purely Henry and Dave Berryman saving the endangered wood/trees and we called them tree huggers jokingly everytime we crossed paths @ NAMM and the Custom/Pro Shop.

So, here's the WACKO over zealous FEDS doing a crackdown on Gibson and the two guys that are the most eco friendly preservationists in the music industry.

There's tons of smaller guitar manufacturers that are using banned and now illegal woods determine by the Aborist Nazis... you don't see them being busted. Almost sounds like a competitor stirred this shit up with the FEDS or a little retaliation for something... right S&P?

specsaregood
08-27-2011, 09:35 AM
//

low preference guy
08-27-2011, 12:04 PM
Oh, I forgot the dobro in the list.

In the age of raids, maybe TMI?

Lifesoup
08-27-2011, 12:07 PM
In the age of raids, maybe TMI?

Yep, pretty ballsy!

Carson
08-27-2011, 01:40 PM
What the cost of the new world order and their global control of your wood might look like.

http://photos.imageevent.com/stokeybob/followthemoney/RobertSahrcurrencyvalue.jpg

Carson
08-27-2011, 02:34 PM
You can already do time for keeping a feather from a turkey vulture that you found already dead.
I'm not surprised by anything anymore.

Also a turkey vulture can lose a feather and still be quit alive and carrying out other work.


Imagine that your playing a game called god. Imagine then if you will is that she can let you know your prayer was heard by having a bird leave a feather for you to find. You might spot it and remember.

Maybe your playing a game. Maybe for you it is real. Maybe both at the same time.


Some time when you have a chance, whether you believe or not, try playing a game that is easy.

Say a little prayer to yourself, the night before, about how nice you would like the day to go for you, or for you and your neighbors. Then the next day you might remember and look back on the many nice things that came. Game or real it makes for a positive look at things and not a bad habit for many of us to get in to.


P.S. And while were talking around the topic of music. Maybe play the game that music is a way for some of us that can't sing good to have someone else sing a message to heaven. Maybe a way for heaven to relay a message back to us through a song. Maybe there is more to the songs for lovers than what might first appear.

I remember when two little girls fluttered across the grade school play ground like a pair of angels. They stopped in front of me and looked up and one of them said, "People are saying the Beatles are really singing songs with religious messages in them. Do you think so?". I think I said, I didn't. It sounded like regular music to me.

Later the first song I heard was this one:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0YifXhm-Zc

Carson
08-27-2011, 10:26 PM
I just saw a thread on Fark on this topic.


If two US guitar makers use the same imported Indian wood, which gets raided, the Democrat donor or the Republican donor?

Link; (Actual story link at the top near the icon on the left of the headline)

http://www.fark.com/comments/6516152/If-two-US-guitar-makers-use-same-imported-Indian-wood-which-gets-raided-Democrat-donor-the-Republican-donor

ZanZibar
02-23-2012, 11:02 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5IYGroW1nA&feature=uploademail