IL-Cop shows up for noise complaint, shoots family dog dead, then threatens owner. [Archive]

Anti Federalist

08-21-2011, 01:50 PM

Yeah, again...:mad:

Man mourns dog shot by cop

http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/news/7108549-418/man-mourns-dog-shot-by-cop.html

BY CASEY TONER ctoner@southtownstar.com August 19, 2011 10:10PM

Updated: August 21, 2011 2:09AM

The gentle nature that his pit bull displayed when Michael Ambriz brought his baby boy Christian home from the hospital five months ago sticks in Ambriz’s memory.

The dog, Bella, knew just how to act, the Chicago Heights man said.

“She sat in front of me and looked at the baby,” Ambriz said. “She right away kissed his feet. My baby loved him.”

Thus it came as a total shock to Ambriz when he learned his dog had been shot and killed by a Chicago Heights police officer early Aug. 13.

Police said an officer responding to a noise complaint at Ambriz’s family’s house in the first block of East Joe Orr Road shot the dog because it lunged at him.

“She’s gone,” said Ambriz, 21. “What am I supposed to do now? I lost my best friend.”

Earlier that night, Ambriz’s father, Juan Esparza, was relaxing on his back porch and listening to music while Ambriz worked at Rupari Food Services in South Holland.

Esparza had been drinking beer with a friend and was eating freshly grilled hot dogs with Bella — three for him and two for her — when a car pulled up to the driveway.

It was the police. Bella ran out to investigate and that’s when Esparza heard gunfire.

“It was like a firecracker,” he said.

When Esparza made it to the scene, he saw Bella in his front driveway, bleeding from her head.

“She was trying to reach me but it was like she was saying, ‘I can’t get up,
I can’t get up,’ ” Esparza said, mimicking the dog’s clawing paws with his hands.

Esparza said he immediately challenged the police officer and claimed the officer pointed his weapon at him.

“I bet you’re not going to shoot me,” Esparza said he told the police officer. “You don’t have the (guts) to shoot me.”

Esparza said the police officer cussed at him and then left the scene.

Police Chief Michael Camilli said the incident “was a bad circumstance, but the officer was trying not to be bitten by a dog he felt was attacking.”

Camilli said the dog was unleashed, and there was no fence around the yard.

“These guys don’t get paid to get bit,” Camilli said.

The officer remains on duty while the shooting is being investigated, Camilli said, adding that there was no evidence that the police officer brandished his gun at Esparza or any members of his family.

Esparza said that while he waited for his son to come home from work, he buried the dog in his back yard. To mark the spot, he stuck a white, wood makeshift cross bearing the dog’s name into the soil.

Ambriz said that when he got home, he knew something was wrong when Bella didn’t greet him at the door like she always had. His brother then told him Bella was dead.

“I ran outside and saw her grave and I started crying,” Ambriz said.

The next day, Ambriz dug up the dog’s body and put it on ice so he could have it cremated. He placed the dog’s colorful collar on top.

“I cried all morning,” he said, adding that he is considering filing a lawsuit against the police department. “It’s like losing a child.”

CaptainAmerica

08-21-2011, 01:58 PM

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/kappellmeister2003/530a7b4c.jpg

flightlesskiwi

08-21-2011, 02:02 PM

another one bites the dust. :mad:

Lafayette

08-21-2011, 02:27 PM

“These guys don’t get paid to get bit,”

They also don't get paid to murder peoples pets just because they have the balls of a 12 year old girl.

Thousands of postal workers everyday muster up the courage to face these blood thirsty dogs just to bring us mail, and yet they manage to do it without killing a single one.

Perhaps this "officer" should trade in his badge & gun for a nice pink dress.

fisharmor

08-21-2011, 03:13 PM

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/kappellmeister2003/530a7b4c.jpg

That's all he ever was... a dream.
We're getting to know him pretty well these days, and you know what? Fuck that guy.

“These guys don’t get paid to get bit,”
Perhaps this "officer" should trade in his badge & gun for a nice pink dress.

Maybe if it also has a bright yellow stripe running down the back too.
Esparza was right, he didn't have the balls.

Anti Federalist

08-21-2011, 03:20 PM

The officer remains on duty while the shooting is being investigated, Camilli said, adding that there was no evidence that the police officer brandished his gun at Esparza or any members of his family.

Of course there's no "evidence", just the word of a Mundane.

However, if there was nothing but the word of a cop that Esparza had pointed a gun at anybody, especially a cop, you can bet your ass, Esparza would be cooling his heels in jail.

Just another day in Amerika.

bkreigh

08-21-2011, 03:32 PM

Cops fault as much as the neighbors fault for calling the cops. If you have a problem with a neighbor then go over there and ask them to politely turn down their music or whatever. Calling the cops on this bullshit pisses me off.

Philip Dru: Agorist

08-21-2011, 03:44 PM

This is nothing a little vigilante justice won't cure.

oyarde

08-21-2011, 04:10 PM

What a pussy .

oyarde

08-21-2011, 04:16 PM

post the mailing address for the dept.

DamianTV

08-21-2011, 04:31 PM

Human Cruelty starts with Animal Cruelty.

Brian4Liberty

08-21-2011, 06:43 PM

Thousands of postal workers everyday muster up the courage to face these blood thirsty dogs every day just to bring us mail, and yet they manage to do it without killing a single one.

^this

Petar

08-21-2011, 06:49 PM

This is nothing a little vigilante justice won't cure.

not true at all, and stupid to suggest

sluggo

08-21-2011, 06:54 PM

What do cops have against dogs?

sluggo

08-21-2011, 06:57 PM

This is nothing a little vigilante justice won't cure.

Subtlety is a troll's best friend.

Philip Dru: Agorist

08-21-2011, 06:58 PM

not true at all, and stupid to suggest

Sure it's true. The fascist police are behaving as they are because they no longer fear the American people. They shoot our dogs, daughters, and grandmas because they know they can, and the only response they'll get in return from us is a lawsuit they personally won't have to pay out of pocket.

The police are like any other thugs. They prey on the weak. At some point people have to start shooting back. It's as simple as that. When the police/politicians start respecting/fearing the American people again is when we'll get our country back. Not before.

brushfire

08-21-2011, 07:12 PM

I've been through Chicago Heights many times... Its not exactly "truth in advertising" - its a fairly depressed area.

The police force has had gang members on it, and has also lost a bunch of HK mp5 machine pistols, which were later recovered in a forest preserve. The place is a freak'n mess. I would not be surprised if nothing happened as a result of this incident.

pacodever

08-21-2011, 07:27 PM

So the cop just drove off? Not sure how driving-up, discharging your weapon in a populated neighborhood, killing a family pet, and then leaving properly addresses a noise complaint.

I agree, these chicken-shit people need to quit calling the police anytime a noise disturbs them. Man up and go over there yourself. It could save a life.

mport1

08-21-2011, 07:45 PM

Dog Murderers (http://www.dogmurderers.com/)

Rael

08-21-2011, 08:02 PM

Camilli said the dog was unleashed, and there was no fence around the yard.

Here we go again. For your dogs safety keep them fenced in!

mport1

08-21-2011, 08:26 PM

Another reminder to never let the cops into your home unless they are busting in with a warrant. They are not there to help you. They are there to attempt to arrest, ticket, or inflict some other type of violence on you. Many of them are sadistic and will look for any excuse to use their weapons and hence murder your pets.

Philhelm

08-21-2011, 08:28 PM

Another reminder to never let the cops into your home unless they are busting in with a warrant. They are not there to help you. They are there to kidnap, extort, or murder you. Many of them are sadistic and will look for any excuse to use their weapons and hence murder your pets.

There. That's more like it.

mport1

08-21-2011, 08:29 PM

There. That's more like it.

Thanks for the correction. I still fall into slave speak from time to time.

Anti Federalist

08-21-2011, 10:32 PM

Here we go again. For your dogs safety keep them fenced in!

From everything I read the dog never left the property.

And there have been numerous similar instances where the dogs were confined and restrained and still shot.

You should not have to live in a prison yard for fear that cops may wander onto year property and blow away whatever they feel like it, threaten you with a deadly weapon and the leave.

Danke

08-21-2011, 10:41 PM

Just as bomber aircraft have a bomb painted on the side for every mission during war, I think they should start doing that with cops cars for dog kills.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3186/3106873473_be12e3b642.jpg

osan

08-21-2011, 10:43 PM

Yeah, again...:mad:

When will people start shooting cops in self defense? When will communities band together and show equal force against the legitimized thugs we know as the police? The police need to be reeled way in - with bullets if need be. Kill them until they stop killing us. The proposition has become that simple.

mport1

08-21-2011, 10:58 PM

When will people start shooting cops in self defense? When will communities band together and show equal force against the legitimized thugs we know as the police? The police need to be reeled way in - with bullets if need be. Kill them until they stop killing us. The proposition has become that simple.

Violence is not the answer and will only result in more violence and less liberty. Non violent civil resistance has been proven to be far more effective than violence: Why Civil Resistance Works (http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3301_pp007-044_Stephan_Chenoweth.pdf)

Rael

08-21-2011, 11:00 PM

You should not have to live in a prison yard for fear that cops may wander onto year property and blow away whatever they feel like it, threaten you with a deadly weapon and the leave.

Cops are only one reason to fence in your dogs. The main reason is to protect them from getting lost, hit by a car, etc. It also makes it less likely that someone will accuse your dog of biting them, involving you in a possible lawsuit or perhaps having the dog "put to sleep" (killed).

Besides, even though we "should not" have to protect our dogs from the cops, the fact is that we DO. (I should not have to own a firearm either, because everyone should just respect my rights)

I've known people who think dogs should be allowed to "roam free". These folks are always the ones who's dogs wind up living a short life and getting killed by cars. If you love your best friend, give him a nice and safe big fenced yard to play in.

Rael

08-21-2011, 11:04 PM

When will people start shooting cops in self defense? When will communities band together and show equal force against the legitimized thugs we know as the police? The police need to be reeled way in - with bullets if need be. Kill them until they stop killing us. The proposition has become that simple.

Didn't you see the thread posted the other day where the cop threatened the mans dog, so he shot the cop in the face?

RIPLEYMOM

08-21-2011, 11:04 PM

Danke

08-21-2011, 11:08 PM

I don't share the cop paranoia many seem to have here. Maybe the reason is that you're not so law abiding.

I guess when the government becomes "law abiding," I may too.

Rael

08-21-2011, 11:10 PM

I don't share the cop paranoia many seem to have here. Maybe the reason is that you're not so law abiding.

Most of these stories involve people who were not doing anything wrong. It does not matter if you are "law abiding". The fact is that there is a huge problem in the law enforcement community. They are no longer "peace officers".

Rael

08-21-2011, 11:12 PM

I guess when the government becomes "law abiding," I may too.

+rep

Anti Federalist

08-21-2011, 11:14 PM

Danke

08-21-2011, 11:15 PM

Most of these stories involve people who were not doing anything wrong. It does not matter if you are "law abiding". The fact is that there is a huge problem in the law enforcement community. They are no longer "peace officers".

You said it better. +rep

Anti Federalist

08-21-2011, 11:17 PM

Violence is not the answer and will only result in more violence and less liberty. Non violent civil resistance has been proven to be far more effective than violence: Why Civil Resistance Works (http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3301_pp007-044_Stephan_Chenoweth.pdf)

Disagree.

It should be a last resort.

But if you are about to be dragged off to a prison camp for no good reason, you resist, with whatever you have at your disposal, including deadly force.

purplechoe

08-21-2011, 11:21 PM

I don't share the cop paranoia many seem to have here. Maybe the reason is that you're not so law abiding. I guess it's SOL for the new people visiting these forums who happen to work in law enforcement. It definitely goes against the 'be nice to the new people' effort being made here. It's crap.

There are so many laws passed that not one person can go through life without breaking at least some of the laws. I bet there are laws that you have broken as well whether you know it or not...

I guess when the government becomes "law abiding," I may too.

Agreed, when those in government would actually follow the constitution maybe the rest of us would actually have respect for the law...

Anti Federalist

08-21-2011, 11:22 PM

I know I saw a picture somewhere of a SWAT APC with human "kills" painted on the side.

Just as bomber aircraft have a bomb painted on the side for every mission during war, I think they should start doing that with cops cars for dog kills.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3186/3106873473_be12e3b642.jpg

Danke

08-21-2011, 11:23 PM

Disagree.

It should be a last resort.

But if you are about to be dragged off to a prison camp for no good reason, you resist, with whatever you have at your disposal, including deadly force.

Someone still have that youtube audio of a guy saying just that? I think he was referring to the Holocaust.

burt

08-21-2011, 11:27 PM

Oh, what I wouldn't do to shoot pit bulls all day long. Shoot them all.

pacodever

08-21-2011, 11:29 PM

I don't share the cop paranoia many seem to have here. Maybe the reason is that you're not so law abiding. I guess it's SOL for the new people visiting these forums who happen to work in law enforcement. It definitely goes against the 'be nice to the new people' effort being made here. It's crap.

No. Reports like this are happening every week, and it definitely happens more than it is reported in the news. The fact that cops are behaving like this on a fairly frequent basis demonstrates a systematic disregard for life in the "law enforcement community", disregard that mimics the behavior of a sociopath. First our animals, and then us.

Being law abiding has nothing to do with it. I abide by the laws but a rookie cop with a twitchy trigger finger or the bully cop on a ego-trip is a very real fear for many law abiding Americans.

Philip Dru: Agorist

08-21-2011, 11:32 PM

Violence is not the answer and will only result in more violence and less liberty.

The livestock isn't going to be free of the farmer by peacefully protesting their slaughter, being nice to the farmer, and denouncing violence amongst themselves. The farmer simply doesn't care about any of that. All the farmer sees are animal resources that need exploiting. There's really only one viable solution available to the livestock, and that is to band together and stampede the farmer's ass to death. That's about the only thing the farmer understands and the one thing he fears more than any other.

Nice only works on the civilized, but it's completely counterproductive when used on psychopaths.

Lafayette

08-21-2011, 11:49 PM

Anti Federalist

08-21-2011, 11:55 PM

Just as bomber aircraft have a bomb painted on the side for every mission during war, I think they should start doing that with cops cars for dog kills.

I knew I had seen it before...Midland County TX sheriffs with "confirmed kills" painted on the side of their APC.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/may2008/200508apc.jpg

http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/may2008/200508apc1.jpg

DamianTV

08-22-2011, 12:13 AM

There is one thing missing from the side of those Police Vehicles.

To Punish And Enslave...

pacodever

08-22-2011, 12:17 AM

I knew I had seen it before...Midland County TX sheriffs with "confirmed kills" painted on the side of their APC.

I don't know... That could be a symbol representing teamwork or friendship...

Danke

08-22-2011, 05:17 AM

I knew I had seen it before...Midland County TX sheriffs with "confirmed kills" painted on the side of their APC.

Meh, just two non- "law abiding" mundanes... They need to work harder to get their moneys worth out of that expensive equipment.

They could crush a lot of lemonade stands with that APC!

fisharmor

08-22-2011, 06:21 AM

I guess it's SOL for the new people visiting these forums who happen to work in law enforcement.

So, not to dogpile, but you're so far away from the point that I'll at least point you of the direction of the rocket that'll get you back there in a couple decades.

If people that work in law enforcement do not enthusiastically support our God-given, constitutionally protected right to call them out, then they are not friends of ours.

This isn't like racism. We're not harboring some irrational hatred of law enforcement. This is all based on something.
We get a steady stream of stories like in the OP. And some of us have been tapped into this stream for years.
Some of us are actually taking the time to go back and review history as well, and realizing that this is the job of law enforcement; their stated goals and the belief of general society have absolutely nothing to do with the job definition.

The overseer in the original story proved that he lacks the intellectual capacity to have life-and-death power over the populace - how can one otherwise describe a man who doesn't think that just getting back in the fucking car is preferable to discharging a weapon in public?
The overseer in question also proved that he is bloodthirsty and eager to end lives and put others at risk for the same reason.

If a cop shows up here and has a negative reaction to what we're saying, he proves that he's equally intellectually incapable - how else can we describe a man who doesn't understand our reaction in the face of such evidence?
If he doesn't immediately decry these actions, he shows that he's just as bloodthirsty too - just as likely to discharge and put others at risk.

Now I understand that some might show up and get shooed off when we reject their religion - how else can I describe it? But I'm not sugar-coating the truth and I'm glad I'm in similar company. They aren't priests, they aren't privileged, they aren't better people.
They're gangsters.
They are no better than those they claim to be fighting, and in many cases, are actually significantly worse.
If the overseers can't deal with that fact, then I'm not gonna cry real hard when they turn away from us.

limequat

08-22-2011, 06:49 AM

So, not to dogpile, but you're so far away from the point that I'll at least point you of the direction of the rocket that'll get you back there in a couple decades.

.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to fisharmor again."

DamianTV

08-22-2011, 06:55 AM

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to fisharmor again."

Rofl. Ditto.

mport1

08-22-2011, 07:00 AM

mport1

08-22-2011, 07:02 AM

The livestock isn't going to be free of the farmer by peacefully protesting their slaughter, being nice to the farmer, and denouncing violence amongst themselves. The farmer simply doesn't care about any of that. All the farmer sees are animal resources that need exploiting. There's really only one viable solution available to the livestock, and that is to band together and stampede the farmer's ass to death. That's about the only thing the farmer understands and the one thing he fears more than any other.

Nice only works on the civilized, but it's completely counterproductive when used on psychopaths.

The farmer only has power because the livestock don't understand they are livestock and go along with the farmers orders. Once enough livestock realize the situation and start disobeying the farmer, the farmer loses all of his power.

Krugerrand

08-22-2011, 07:03 AM

This is what I could put together quickly ... feel free to improve upon it. (Inspired by AK-47 version.)

http://i55.tinypic.com/281yiv8.jpg

Krugerrand

08-22-2011, 07:05 AM

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to fisharmor again."

I saved some rep for you.

DamianTV

08-22-2011, 07:08 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCR97weqHQY

Also a pitbull!

http://www.halloweencostumes4u.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000003/885945.jpg

Not a Pitbull!

mport1

08-22-2011, 07:23 AM

DamianTV

08-22-2011, 08:09 AM

Being a police officer is completely incompatible with being in favor of liberty. Anybody who is pro-liberty and is a police officer needs to quit their job.

I think cops may have a little more respect for people if people voted them into the office of being a cop. Betray our trust, and you wont get re-elected.

Krugerrand

08-22-2011, 08:12 AM

I think cops may have a little more respect for people if people voted them into the office of being a cop. Betray our trust, and you wont get re-elected.

Abolish the police and any work that needs to be picked up can be done by the elected Sheriff.

DamianTV

08-22-2011, 08:14 AM

Police are government appointed thugs. Sheriffs are held accountable by being voted for. Big difference, and somewhat agree, abolish any Law Enforcement Position that the person is not held accountable. Even judges are held accountable. Why arent the fucking cops?

Pericles

08-22-2011, 08:25 AM

Someone still have that youtube audio of a guy saying just that? I think he was referring to the Holocaust.
I think this says it best:

"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward."
— Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/10420.Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn)

oyarde

08-22-2011, 08:52 AM

oyarde

08-22-2011, 08:54 AM

Oh, what I wouldn't do to shoot pit bulls all day long. Shoot them all.

I assume you are kidding ?

pcosmar

08-22-2011, 09:23 AM

Oh, what I wouldn't do to shoot pit bulls all day long. Shoot them all.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i82/ccopelandinc/pitbull.jpg

:(

I have owned one Pit and known several. Wonderful dogs.

oyarde

08-22-2011, 09:25 AM

I once had a brindle , half boxer , half pit dog . It was a fine pet .

pcosmar

08-22-2011, 09:30 AM

Being a police officer is completely incompatible with being in favor of liberty. Anybody who is pro-liberty and is a police officer needs to quit their job.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

Police work is often lionized by jurists and scholars who claim to employ "textualist" and "originalist" methods of constitutional interpretation. Yet professional police were unknown to the United States in 1789, and first appeared in America almost a half-century after the Constitution's ratification. The Framers contemplated law enforcement as the duty of mostly private citizens, along with a few constables and sheriffs who could be called upon when necessary. This article marshals extensive historical and legal evidence to show that modern policing is in many ways inconsistent with the original intent of America's founding documents. The author argues that the growth of modern policing has substantially empowered the state in a way the Framers would regard as abhorrent to their foremost principles.

asurfaholic

08-22-2011, 10:10 AM

If anyone shoots my dog, somebody is going to wind up dead. I love my dog

Anti Federalist

08-22-2011, 10:39 AM

Yes, but we are far from that now.

I disagree again.

The legal structure, settled law, enforcement arms and precedent is all in place.

All it would take is a signature.

It could happen in a matter of days.

Hospitaller

08-22-2011, 10:46 AM

Sickening, I'm grateful that we have a much better standard of policing in Australia

TruckinMike

08-22-2011, 12:06 PM

What a pussy .

Do you mean the cop, the neighbor, or both? I'm with bkreigh on this one. That wuss of a neighbor could have chosen NOT to call the police. And that cop could have chosen NOT to shoot the dog. Its too bad that our world is filled with such weak and pathetic people.

Kylie

08-22-2011, 12:48 PM

Do you mean the cop, the neighbor, or both? I'm with bkreigh on this one. That wuss of a neighbor could have chosen NOT to call the police. And that cop could have chosen NOT to shoot the dog. Its too bad that our world is filled with such weak and pathetic people.

Word. The gene pool definitely needs some chlorine.

pcosmar

08-22-2011, 01:13 PM

Word. The gene pool definitely needs some chlorine.

Gene Poole works for the Feds. (FBI)

:(

osan

08-22-2011, 01:57 PM

Violence is not the answer and will only result in more violence and less liberty. Non violent civil resistance has been proven to be far more effective than violence: Why Civil Resistance Works (http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3301_pp007-044_Stephan_Chenoweth.pdf)

In many cases, perhaps even most, I may agree. Non-violence is not, however, a panacea. There are times when you just have to haul off and slap someone right back.

limequat

08-22-2011, 02:13 PM

Interesting that the whole non-violence meme seems to be most parroted by those that have a monopoly on violence.

osan

08-22-2011, 02:25 PM

I don't share the cop paranoia many seem to have here.

Paranoia? Are you suggesting that the police are our friends? Are you suggesting that we should not fear no-knock raids where police bust in, guns hot? Are you suggesting that the brutal enforcement of arbitrary and immoral statutes that trample our rights is the hallmark of a free people? Are you suggesting that police are somehow authorized to murder the people they were ostensibly hired to protect? Are you suggesting that police are somehow our superiors wielding authority over us?

Maybe the reason is that you're not so law abiding.

Depends on whose law. I do not kowtow to arbitrary and immoral law. Do you?

I guess it's SOL for the new people visiting these forums who happen to work in law enforcement

If you are on board with the right clues WRT human freedom, I see no problem. If you believe that the general performance of the police is morally righteous, then I would have to suggest that you are in some need of correction.

It definitely goes against the 'be nice to the new people' effort being made here. It's crap.

Has anyone been not nice to you? Just because we recognize the moral bankruptcy of the very notion of "police", it does not follow that our expressions of that recognition constitute discourtesy.

Having lived all across the USA and having worked with literally thousands of people over the twenty years I have spent as an independent consultant, and furthermore being the sort to chat up these sorts of topics, I can tell you unequivocally that the vast and overwhelming majority of those people have expressed a distrust and even fear of police. This large sample represents virtually all college educated people, most in a technical field or in business, a large proportion with masters and doctoral degrees. The several thousands of other people, many of whom are of blue-collar backgrounds and many which are what we may conversationally label as being from the "ghetto" share the same opinions, if somewhat amplified.

In short, I have met and conversed with a huge population taken from all corners of the USA, excepting only the mid-west. Of those, I would be overly generous in estimating the proportion of those who expressed trust of police as being anywhere near 10%. Fear and mistrust of police is rampant. Why do you think that might be?

jonhowe

08-22-2011, 02:38 PM

Fear and mistrust of police is rampant. Why do you think that might be?

It's the marijuana!

pcosmar

08-22-2011, 02:45 PM

It's the marijuana!
:(
It has more to do with the body count.

Kylie

08-22-2011, 03:08 PM

Osan,

I have worked with many hundreds through my state in the midwest and can attest to an overwhelming portion of people, from all socio-economic backgrounds, hold the same distrust you have stated. Doesn't matter how "smart", or what color or gender, we don't trust our cops. Or at least get an uneasy feeling from them.

Just think of the way you feel everytime you crest a hill and see a cops car on the other side. Your butt puckers and you look quickly to see if you're doing anything "illegal". Even if you're not prone to doing things that one would deem unlawful, you still have the drop in your stomach.....because you just never know with all the bullshit laws on the books now.

I'll bet my next months income that even RIPLEYMOM gets that feeling, but she's trying to ignore that in order to feel a little righteous in this thread.

heavenlyboy34

08-22-2011, 04:23 PM

I think cops may have a little more respect for people if people voted them into the office of being a cop. Betray our trust, and you wont get re-elected.
Doubt it. Congressmen get reelected all the time, no matter how little regard they have for the law.

DamianTV

08-22-2011, 04:44 PM

Doubt it. Congressmen get reelected all the time, no matter how little regard they have for the law.

I wish you werent right, but you are.

mport1

08-22-2011, 04:48 PM

In many cases, perhaps even most, I may agree. Non-violence is not, however, a panacea. There are times when you just have to haul off and slap someone right back.

Agreed. It won't do much in a hauled off to concentration camp scenario, but we aren't there yet.

Right now, shooting at a cop is just suicidal and makes people think you, and whatever group you are associated with are crazy.

pcosmar

08-22-2011, 04:51 PM

I wish you werent right, but you are.

Law enforcement needs to be back in the hands of the people where it belongs.
People really do need to take the law into their own hands.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

The Framers contemplated law enforcement as the duty of mostly private citizens, along with a few constables and sheriffs who could be called upon when necessary.

The Constitution contains no explicit provisions for criminal law enforcement. Nor did the constitutions of any of the several states contain such provisions at the time of the Founding. Early constitutions enunciated the intention that law enforcement was a universal duty that each person owed to the community, rather than a power of the government. Founding-era constitutions addressed law enforcement from the standpoint of individual liberties and placed explicit barriers upon the state.

DamianTV

08-22-2011, 05:15 PM

Law enforcement needs to be back in the hands of the people where it belongs.
People really do need to take the law into their own hands.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

(long read, must read later)

Well, as heavenlyboy34 pointed out, voting doesnt always guarantee that we wont get a wicked person taking the job of crooked cop re-elected. However, in all of these Abuses of Police Powers, have any of the Kid Killers, Murderers, and Dog Shooters been Sheriffs that actually did hold Elected Positions? When I hear Cop, I dont necessarily think of a Sheriff (referring to Sheriff as an Elected Position where the rest are simply Thugs with Uniforms), and that fault for not paying attention to the specifics of these news stories is on me. None the less, if the City of where ever you live had a Sheriff that shot and killed a Dog over something stupid, like a Neighbor calling in a Noise Complaint, or Lemonade Stand, have any of those Sheriffs been Re-Elected?

Anti Federalist

08-22-2011, 05:27 PM

(long read, must read later)

Well, as heavenlyboy34 pointed out, voting doesnt always guarantee that we wont get a wicked person taking the job of crooked cop re-elected. However, in all of these Abuses of Police Powers, have any of the Kid Killers, Murderers, and Dog Shooters been Sheriffs that actually did hold Elected Positions? When I hear Cop, I dont necessarily think of a Sheriff (referring to Sheriff as an Elected Position where the rest are simply Thugs with Uniforms), and that fault for not paying attention to the specifics of these news stories is on me. None the less, if the City of where ever you live had a Sheriff that shot and killed a Dog over something stupid, like a Neighbor calling in a Noise Complaint, or Lemonade Stand, have any of those Sheriffs been Re-Elected?

Some.

I posted a compilation of incidents that showed a lower level of incidents with elected sheriffs and a higher amount of reporting of incidents (possibly because people were more likely to file a complaint against an elected sheriff than a city cop).

A few things before I start with this weekend’s report.

http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/?p=4510

Today, Radley Balko asked his readers an interesting question as to whether appointing or electing law enforcement leadership had anything to do with police misconduct. It was an interesting question so I decided to run some analysis on our data and see if there were any correlations between misconduct rates and leadership selection types.

The results were sort of interesting.

First, just looking at overall misconduct per capita rates the results appear to indicate that agencies with elected leaders have less misconduct. Our 2009 Annual Report indicated that the national police misconduct rate was a projected 980.64 officers per 100,000. When we segment that into local Police Departments and Sheriff’s Offices we find that Police departments where leaders are appointed had a misconduct rate of 990.09 per 100,000 while Sheriffs offices where leaders are elected had a misconduct rate of 644.14 per 100,000.

Our 2010 data is somewhat similar in the breakdown. While the overall misconduct rate was 977.98 per 100,000, police departments had a misconduct rate of 1082.04 per 100,000 and sheriff’s agencies had a misconduct rate of 706.74 per 100,000.

So, it would seem that elected officials do better than appointed officials. However, when we look at the number of agencies and leaders implicated in misconduct we see something different.

In 2009 our data indicated that 10.8% of police agencies had officers involved in police misconduct while 7.8% of sheriff’s departments had officers implicated in acts of misconduct. But, in 2010 14% of police agencies had officers implicated in misconduct and 18% of sheriff’s departments had officers implicated in misconduct. Additionally, in 2010, 2.5% of police chiefs were implicated in acts of misconduct while 3.5% of sheriffs were implicated in misconduct. So, when we examine the numbers by agency the picture is a bit more muddled.

osan

08-22-2011, 05:40 PM

Didn't you see the thread posted the other day where the cop threatened the mans dog, so he shot the cop in the face?

Yes. One instance, whose outcome for the shooter is anything but assured as rosy, is not enough.

Gaining and keeping liberty requires the willingness to get very ugly in the cases where some subset of the population endeavors to violate the rights of others. If you are not willing to kill to keep your liberty, then you remain free at the deign of your fellows and not your own will. If you covet real freedom, hold no illusions about the reality: you will always have to fight to keep it because there will always be those who will try to take it from you, most often out of all good intentions.

flightlesskiwi

08-22-2011, 05:46 PM

for some reason, that study didn't make me any more confident in law enforcement-- sheriff or town.

has anyone else here lived in a county with a corrupt as all hell sheriff that keeps getting re-elected? he might not shoot dogs or bust doors down (himself anyway)... but A LOT of the rural areas have "task force" (mostly for drug "crime") coalitions between the police departments in towns and the county sheriff department.

granted, coalitions wouldn't exist if towns didn't have police forces, but it just reinforces that the damage (paramilitary type training/mentality in the ranks of the county sheriff regime) has already been done.

and has anyone else here lived in a county where the elderly, delusional, bat sh*t crazy judge keeps getting reelected?

my confidence in the "voting public" and their ability to make wise, sound decisions is reeeeeeeally low.

i guess maybe if every county ONLY had one sheriff and one deputy. that might work.

Some.

I posted a compilation of incidents that showed a lower level of incidents with elected sheriffs and a higher amount of reporting of incidents (possibly because people were more likely to file a complaint against an elected sheriff than a city cop).