Flying pretty soon: to opt out or not?

[Patriot123]

I'm 18, and I'm going to be flying pretty soon. I was like, "okay, fine." Then I remembered about the full-body scanners. I proceeded to say to myself, "oh crap." And now I don't know whether I want to opt out or not.

One side of me sort of feels like, why waste your time opting out? No one else will probably be opting out, and I'd look like a total idiot stepping out of line to be patted down. Why waste my time? The other side of me, though, feels like you need to stand up for what you believe in. If you feel like something is wrong, stand up for your convictions. However, I also don't want to be groped, as I'm sure no one else does. I guess I'm just curious: what have you done when flying? Have you went through the scanner, or have you chosen to opt out? What was each like?

[TCE]

I wouldn't risk the radiation. Bring on the pat down. This is one of those things the health experts always say years down the line, "oops, we had no idea this caused cancer. Sorry."

[Patriot123]

Hmmm. Does anyone know roughly how many people opt out in a given hour? A guess, for those who have flown recently?

[svobody]

I always opt out... If only to throw a wrench in the system. Gives you a great opportunity to talk to people about why what the TSA does is WRONG. I've converted a couple people just standing in line before discussing it with them. The outreach never stops...

[Nate-ForLiberty]

You need to opt out of flying completely. But now that you've already committed to flying, opt out of the body scanner. Just remain respectful and courteous. No need to make a stink if you are not prepared for it.

[madengr]

Most airports are not running the porno scanner on every security line. It's just a matter of picking the line that avoids it. The busiest times (morning and evening weekdays) are the easier to bypass it. If it's not busy, they tend to run everyone through it.

[libertarian4321]

I have intentionally avoided flying for the past couple of years just to avoid the TSA BS.

[purplechoe]

take the bus or train...

http://www.realnewsreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Dees-TSA-Choice-300x228.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

Hmmm. Does anyone know roughly how many people opt out in a given hour? A guess, for those who have flown recently?

I fly on a regular basis.

I'd say less than 1 percent "opt out".

The rest placidly line up and get scanned.

Why is this even a question?

Opt out by god and do it proudly.

[LibertyEagle]

It's weird. My sister has flown several times in the last few months. None of the airports she went through had those new scanners and she wasn't patted down, either.

[Anti Federalist]

It's weird. My sister has flown several times in the last few months. None of the airports she went through had those new scanners and she wasn't patted down, either.

Most of the regionals do not have the pornotrons yet.

Even in the large ones, it's hit or miss.

In couple of the large ones, including BOS, you will be interrogated now as well.

[heavenlyboy34]

Most of the regionals do not have the pornotrons yet.

Even in the large ones, it's hit or miss.

In couple of the large ones, including BOS, you will be interrogated now as well.

O really? What kind of things do they ask you about?

[Anti Federalist]

O really? What kind of things do they ask you about?

They hit you for a response.

I know I posted this already...

TSA launching behavior-detection program at Boston airport

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/17/nation/la-na-tsa-logan-20110818

For the next two months at Logan International Airport in Boston, passengers will be casually greeted by Transportation Security Administration officials. But the officers aren't there for a friendly "hello" — they're trying to deter and detect passengers who pose a risk to aviation security.

As part of the TSA's new behavior-detection pilot program that started this week, screeners are engaging each passenger in Terminal A in casual conversation in an effort to detect suspicious behavior. After passengers provide their boarding pass and ID, they have to answer a few questions from TSA officers who have received two weeks of training.

"It's one layer of security that will allow us to provide additional screening and concentrate on passengers who may pose a higher risk," TSA spokesman Greg Soule said.

The program is an evolution of the TSA's Screening of Passengers by Observation Techniques, or SPOT, Program, which started at Logan in 2003 and has expanded to 160 airports. It has helped arrest 2,000 criminals, but none has been charged with terrorism.

Under the SPOT program, TSA screeners interrogate individuals only after they have been identified as suspicious. Now, at least at Logan, everyone is a target. After 60 days, the TSA will decide whether to expand the program to other airports.

Paul Ekman, professor emeritus at UC San Francisco, who helped develop the SPOT program, said his research indicated that talking to passengers "loosens things up," increasing the chances that they will show signs that they're concealing something. The subject matter of the discussion is irrelevant; all that matters is that the passenger is speaking.

"If all you're doing is watching people standing in line, that's better than doing nothing, and they've had quite a bit of success," Ekman said. "But I would expect that by asking a few fairly innocent questions — 'What's the purpose of your trip?' — that will increase accuracy."

Ekman said that when typical federal employees were asked to detect deception, they failed miserably. That all changes with "an hour's training," he said. Ekman added that the TSA would continue to use a tool developed for the SPOT program that allowed officials to identify "micro-expressions" — facial expressions that occur in 1/25 of a second that are designed to conceal emotion.

Others are skeptical that a run-of-the-mill TSA official can develop the detection techniques necessary to spot suspicious behavior.

Glenn Reynolds, a law professor at the University of Tennessee and an outspoken critic of the TSA, said that although some people were capable of detecting deception, it was much more difficult to teach the art.

"If you're a TSA screener, if you ever meet a terrorist at all, it will be the only one you meet in your whole career," Reynolds said, noting that terrorists are difficult to identify to the untrained eye. In contrast, "if you're a cop on the beach, you deal with drug dealers all the time," making it easier to identify a drug dealer.

Soule said the TSA was working with experts in the field who used behavior detection as part of their job.

It remains unclear whether a short conversation can produce any meaningful information. At Ben Gurion International Airport near Tel Aviv in Israel, every passenger is questioned at length before boarding a plane. The difference, Ekman noted, is that 50,000 people board planes in Israel each day, compared with 2 million in the U.S.

[Anti Federalist]

O really? What kind of things do they ask you about?

TSA - Hello sir, I know you've already had your boarding pass checked I just need to ask a few additional questions.

Me - You're a federal officer, are you not?

TSA - Yes sir.

Me - Then anything I say to you can be used against me in court of law, including any factually untrue statements I may give you.

TSA - Ummmmm...

Me - What if I refuse and exercise my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent while being interrogated by a federal officer?

TSA - Uh sir we would have to prohibit you from entering past security.

Me - So, if I wish to travel in the land of the free I have to give up pretty much all my rights, that about it?

TSA - Uhh, sir...

Me - Never mind, never mind, ask your questions.

[Kylie]

TSA - Hello sir, I know you've already had your boarding pass checked I just need to ask a few additional questions.

Me - You're a federal officer, are you not?

TSA - Yes sir.

Me - Then anything I say to you can be used against me in court of law, including any factually untrue statements I may give you.

TSA - Ummmmm...

Me - What if I refuse and exercise my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent while being interrogated by a federal officer?

TSA - Uh sir we would have to prohibit you from entering past security.

Me - So, if I wish to travel in the land of the free I have to give up pretty much all my rights, that about it?

TSA - Uhh, sir...

Me - Never mind, never mind, ask your questions.

That's good.


I'll have to remember that the next time the Marshalls come to my house.


At least I had the presence of mind to thank them for not shooting my dog when they walked up(around, guns out.....no I am not a felon or lawbreaker).

[Nastynate]

I'm 18, and I'm going to be flying pretty soon. I was like, "okay, fine." Then I remembered about the full-body scanners. I proceeded to say to myself, "oh crap." And now I don't know whether I want to opt out or not.

One side of me sort of feels like, why waste your time opting out? No one else will probably be opting out, and I'd look like a total idiot stepping out of line to be patted down. Why waste my time? The other side of me, though, feels like you need to stand up for what you believe in. If you feel like something is wrong, stand up for your convictions. However, I also don't want to be groped, as I'm sure no one else does. I guess I'm just curious: what have you done when flying? Have you went through the scanner, or have you chosen to opt out? What was each like?

Now you know what Ron Paul had to put up with in all his years in congress, I'm sure it crossed his mind a few times "I wonder if I should stand up for my principals because not doing so would be much more convenient." Sure it is much more convenient to just be like everyone else but if everyone acted in the "right" way then the entire world would be a tyrannical place to live. Even how trivial of effort may be, even if you don't reach anyone with your stepping out of line. In the end when its all said and done you can say you stood up, and the next time you stand up it will be that much easier to stand up against tyranny until standing up is all you know how to do. Take a small step, opt out, you don't have to do it in a manner in which its very dramatic either.

[Grubb556]

I was flying from Orlando and there were only a few people and scanners. Oddly enough we all just went through the metal detector.

[noxagol]

I also have to fly, making a single exception of my never flying while the TSA is around rule, in December. I plan to opt out just to avoid the radiation from the scanner. I have it in my mind to get a cheapo gieger counter from mil surp store and bring it in with me.

[ChristianAnarchist]

I wish I could opt out of flying altogether but we fly to China regularly and it's hard to drive across that big ocean, so flying is the only option. We travel as a group of 3 with my wife and our 17 y.o. son. When they run us through the scanner line, we all 3 opt out. They are usually caught off guard when we do. I personally make a speech to the guy before he runs his hands all over me that goes something like this: "Before you start I want to tell you that I will cooperate fully but I want to protest this action as a violation of my right against unreasonable searches." I've even had a TSA goon agree with me (before he commences fondling me)...

[BucksforPaul]

I opt out of the porno-scanner in order to opt in to being molested. Typical government tactic of giving us false choices both of which violate our natural rights.

The last time I flew, the TSA agent tried to tell me that the porno-scanner was mandatory to which I repeated myself that I opt out. He then called another bureaucRAT who took me aside to molest me so do not be intimidated. While the second goon was taking me away I let the first liar know that obviously its not mandatory as of yet.

Imo, the current reality is worst than George Orwell's nightmares.

[pacelli]

Opt out.

[Aliangel]

Opt out in a private area

[Ricky201]

I opted out in public when I was coming back from St. Louis in May. Usually I've been able to go right through the metal detectors. The man did not grope me and I explained everything he was going to do before he did them. I'm not for causing a raucous at the airport (I'm not good on confrontation and I have anxiety problems in crowded places...so this was kind of big for me lol!), but I made sure it was done in public so maybe one person pay attention would be disgusted with the type of procedure. I will always refuse to go through that thing.

[Danke]

I fly on a regular basis.

Opt out by god and do it proudly.

We know radiation concerns are not the reason you "opt out."

[JamesButabi]

When I must fly I opt out. They ususally don't make a stink unless they feel the need to exert authority and you feel the need to assert your rights.

[austin944]

One side of me sort of feels like, why waste your time opting out? No one else will probably be opting out, and I'd look like a total idiot stepping out of line to be patted down.

I would not feel like an idiot for stepping out of line to be patted down. When I flew, nobody seemed to care or notice that people were getting groped. And this was in the airports that didn't have the body scanners. It was not a spectacle like it's portrayed by the media; people have gotten used to it. Luckily I've not had to face this dilemma yet.

[CaptainAmerica]

Opt out. Don't walk into a biometric database scanner.Don't even fly if you can find a way around it.

[FreeTraveler]

TSA - Hello sir, I know you've already had your boarding pass checked I just need to ask a few additional questions.

Me - You're a federal officer, are you not?

TSA - Yes sir.

Me - Then anything I say to you can be used against me in court of law, including any factually untrue statements I may give you.

TSA - Ummmmm...

Me - What if I refuse and exercise my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent while being interrogated by a federal officer?

TSA - Uh sir we would have to prohibit you from entering past security.

Me - So, if I wish to travel in the land of the free I have to give up pretty much all my rights, that about it?

TSA - Uhh, sir...

Me - Never mind, never mind, ask your questions.

Fear of this is EXACTLY why my wife won't even let me step inside an airport. When she occasionally has to fly she makes me drop her a the curb. She says bailing me out of jail would be too much trouble. :D

[foofighter20x]

One of my college buddies told me this:

Opt out, and then tell the TSA guy you are gay. Then let out subtle moans of pleasure as you are searched.

You'll get the least intrusive pat down possible. Guaranteed.

Probably makes the TSA agent as uncomfortable as hell at the same time.

[Working Poor]

I have intentionally avoided flying for the past couple of years just to avoid the TSA BS.


Me too no way no can do.

[2young2vote]

It really doesn't make much difference. Either way they are doing something that you don't want them to do to your body. I would probably go through the body scanner simply because I don't want another person touching me. I'd rather they see me rather than touch me.

[AFPVet]

Fear of this is EXACTLY why my wife won't even let me step inside an airport. When she occasionally has to fly she makes me drop her a the curb. She says bailing me out of jail would be too much trouble. :D

One thing... the TSA are not law enforcement officers! They are security screeners. In fact, a TSA screener was recently charged with impersonating a law enforcement officer in one of the news blips I saw. Now the TSA does have their own LEO's, but they are not doing the screening.

[Anti Federalist]

One thing... the TSA are not law enforcement officers! They are security screeners. In fact, a TSA screener was recently charged with impersonating a law enforcement officer in one of the news blips I saw. Now the TSA does have their own LEO's, but they are not doing the screening.

Good point, but the fact remains that you are opening yourself up to a felony charge of "lying to a federal official" if you tell them anything that they think or perceive or is untrue.

[tangent4ronpaul]

If I was remotely interested in getting on a plane again (I'm not) I think I'd dress like this:

http://www.costumeparty.com/images/shop/product_images/59167/regular_800816.jpg

only that's a bit lame, so I'd pick up some of those long cylindrical pillows that are about 8" dia. in red of course and strap on a battery powered wall clock. Going "commando" would be a plus.

Lets see them try and search that! :D

What are they going to do - bust you for wearing a costume?

-t

[Anti Federalist]

What are they going to do - bust you for wearing a costume?

-t

Yes.

I'll have to dig up the story, but there's a fellow doing ten years in federal prison for just such a stunt.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Yes.

I'll have to dig up the story, but there's a fellow doing ten years in federal prison for just such a stunt.

WOW! :eek:

What kind of costume?

-t

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

It's weird. My sister has flown several times in the last few months. None of the airports she went through had those new scanners and she wasn't patted down, either.


Holy shit. She must have been blown up several times by now.

[AFPVet]

Good point, but the fact remains that you are opening yourself up to a felony charge of "lying to a federal official" if you tell them anything that they think or perceive or is untrue.

Well, it depends on the circumstances. In some cases, even lying to state criminal investigators can be a misdemeanor depending on the state (Cassey Anthony). Now making false reports could be a felony in the right context though. Federal investigators usually pin felonies for this; however, I am not aware that this pertains to anyone other than law enforcement agents.

I would have to see some case law about it. I suppose you could say that anyone acting on behalf of a government entity could be considered an "agent"; however, a federal official is usually a law enforcement officer of some kind.

In any case, don't incriminate yourself.

[crhoades]

Just opted out. Again. Fly almost every week and am sick of the hassle.

Flying from Chile to Brazil on thurs. Nice thing is that I won't have to take my shoes off, take my laptop out, or get groped or scanned.

Sadly, you have to fly internationally in other countries to get a taste of freedom.

Glitch. I forgot. They hate us for our freedoms.

[Anti Federalist]

One name:

Martha Stewart.


Well, it depends on the circumstances. In some cases even lying to state criminal investigators can be a misdemeanor depending on the state (Cassey Anthony). Now making false reports could be a felony in the right context though. Federal investigators usually pin felonies for this; however, I am not aware that this pertains to anyone other than law enforcement agents.

I would have to see some case law about it. I suppose you could say that anyone acting on behalf of a government entity could be considered an "agent"; however, a federal official is usually a law enforcement officer of some kind.

In any case, don't incriminate yourself.

[joshnorris14]

I've opted out twice at Tampa International. The TSA agents are assholes about it. I think they think I'm inconveniencing them.

At Houston Hobby they never have anybody going through the full-body scanners. They are much more lax.

[osan]

Most of the regionals do not have the pornotrons yet.

Even in the large ones, it's hit or miss.

In couple of the large ones, including BOS, you will be interrogated now as well.

Just went through EWR and ORD. Scanners present but offline.

[teacherone]

Just went through SFO - unfortunately did not have the chance to Opt Out because the TSA agents were nice enough to (unasked) open a new line for my 3 year old son and I and passed us right through. They were extremely friendly and we were through what seemed to be a massive sheep herd in under 5 minutes.

No touching, no pictures.

However, the RapeScan was on and plenty were being fed through it - each was even patted down AFTERWARDS! So...what's the point?

[Bossobass]

Just opted out. Again. Fly almost every week and am sick of the hassle.

Flying from Chile to Brazil on thurs. Nice thing is that I won't have to take my shoes off, take my laptop out, or get groped or scanned.

Sadly, you have to fly internationally in other countries to get a taste of freedom.

Glitch. I forgot. They hate us for our freedoms.

Of course, free choice is ultimate decider, but I'd like to take this opportunity to offer another side:

My wife has worked for a major airline for 23 years. She's a maintenance planner and does an exceptional job in her part in making sure that flying remains the safest way to travel, bar none.

When this mess started right after 911, I was frequently confronted by the new government safety regime. I would be told to step "over there for additional screening". I would answer, "Say please". Invariably, the GS would pause, then say, "Sir, would you PLEASE step over there for further screening"?, to which I would reply, "No thanks", and walk through.

Today, I would be tackled, tazed and arrested. I feel strongly that if everyone adopted my stance in the very beginning, this current situation would simply not exist.

Be that as it may, when another American opts out of flying, it does not hurt the GS Pukes one iota. It only hurts my wife and her hundreds of thousands of colleagues throughout the industry, as well as tourism in many great American cities.

My wife is just a tiny part of the system of free enterprise that has made the airline business the safest and most efficient way to travel in the history of this planet. The pilots and crew members who have risked losing their careers by refusing to be treated like potential criminals at the insistence of some federal government audacity are the heroes in this situation, not the average citizens who run away rather than make a stand to voice their indignations.

I urge people to fly more and tolerate violation of the Civil Liberties that made this country unique in history less instead of the other way around.

Just my 2 cents, FWIW, YMMY...

Bosso

[Anti Federalist]

Valid points.

Not to mention, just boycotting flying won't solve the problem, as TSA has made it very clear that they intend to expand to roads, trains, buses, and large events.


Of course, free choice is ultimate decider, but I'd like to take this opportunity to offer another side:

My wife has worked for a major airline for 23 years. She's a maintenance planner and does an exceptional job in her part in making sure that flying remains the safest way to travel, bar none.

When this mess started right after 911, I was frequently confronted by the new government safety regime. I would be told to step "over there for additional screening". I would answer, "Say please". Invariably, the GS would pause, then say, "Sir, would you PLEASE step over there for further screening"?, to which I would reply, "No thanks", and walk through.

Today, I would be tackled, tazed and arrested. I feel strongly that if everyone adopted my stance in the very beginning, this current situation would simply not exist.

Be that as it may, when another American opts out of flying, it does not hurt the GS Pukes one iota. It only hurts my wife and her hundreds of thousands of colleagues throughout the industry, as well as tourism in many great American cities.

My wife is just a tiny part of the system of free enterprise that has made the airline business the safest and most efficient way to travel in the history of this planet. The pilots and crew members who have risked losing their careers by refusing to be treated like potential criminals at the insistence of some federal government audacity are the heroes in this situation, not the average citizens who run away rather than make a stand to voice their indignations.

I urge people to fly more and tolerate violation of the Civil Liberties that made this country unique in history less instead of the other way around.

Just my 2 cents, FWIW, YMMY...

Bosso