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thehittgirl
11-02-2007, 08:41 AM
I'm a Christian myself, so this is by no means an attack.

I think I tried too hard, or something...I'm so passionate that I looked angry. I tried to convert Christian friends, at least if anything to see how wrong this war is. Unfortunately, they associate my feelings with Ron's and it drove them away. They also thought I came across as thinking I was better than they are. UGH. So I am going to stop trying at least for now.

I am just wondering has anyone successfully talked sense into pro war Christians?

I was close to one of them, and I feel like I've lost her.

tfelice
11-02-2007, 08:45 AM
Point them to Augustine's City of God which is the best articulation of the Just War Doctrine.

Also, to some extent we might need to wait out the Huckabee campaign. When Huckabee eventually drops out, Paul will be the only pro-life Evangelical left in the race. So even though a Christian voter may disagree with his foreign policy, his other attributes may be strong enough to justify a vote.

thehittgirl
11-02-2007, 09:25 AM
Point them to Augustine's City of God which is the best articulation of the Just War Doctrine.

Also, to some extent we might need to wait out the Huckabee campaign. When Huckabee eventually drops out, Paul will be the only pro-life Evangelical left in the race. So even though a Christian voter may disagree with his foreign policy, his other attributes may be strong enough to justify a vote.

I will do that.

jb4ronpaul
11-02-2007, 09:43 AM
Don't sweat it, just learn from the experience and try again in a different and better way. Know the just war theory. War is an ABSOLUTE last resort. If people want to bomb Iran without even talking to them first that is pretty wrong and makes us the agressor. Iran said they would sign a no nuke treaty if Israel did too.

Know Romans 13. The law of our land is the Constitution and must be followed, Bush et al is not the law or the true rule. Know the Constitution. Hand out a copy to people, you can buy pocket Constitutions cheap.

Know the evils of our foreign policy. Sanctions killing hundreds of thousand of innocent people. Is that pro life? Our tax dollars are used to support countries that persecute people, especially Christians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/07/28/saudi.arms/index.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/07/iraq/main2766003.shtml
http://www.worthynews.com/christian/pakistan-christian-converts-could-face-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/

Be a teacher. Ask people to explain in detail things like "Iran is a threat". there is usually nothing to back it up. Have people read Dr. Paul's a foreign policy of freedom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hCKZmkF0VU

In the end I am going to put my faith in the principles of the Bible, the Constitution, and the founding fathers. Not the politicians, bureaucrats, and media who lie to us and serve nothing but themselves.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9).

jb4ronpaul
11-02-2007, 09:56 AM
for Catholics

"The concept of a 'preventive war' does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church"
- Pope Benedict XVI

“Reasons sufficient for unleashing a war against Iraq did not exist”
- Pope Benedict XVI

"When war, like the one now in Iraq, threatens the fate of humanity, it is even more urgent for us to proclaim, with a firm and decisive voice, that only peace is the way of building a more just and caring society"
- Pope John Paul II

"Violence and weapons can never resolve the problems of man."
- Pope John Paul II

"Torture is a humiliation of the human person, whoever it is. The Church does not allow these means to extract the truth."
- Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican pontifical council on peace and justice.

NoxTwilight
11-02-2007, 10:16 AM
One thing that I have observed when having political (or religious for that matter) discussions with many people is that most people without being aware of it, want to be right and want other to agree with them and this can cause the reactions you are describing. It's a natural human tendency I think but perhaps more so in our US society. I have found that this can be diffused by simply stating that you are just giving your point of view and completely support the other persons point of view and will never hold it against them or judge them if they don't agree with you. In fact you don't want them to just believe you, you want them to find out for themselves, just as you did! Some people will still react as if you are trying to tell them what to think and there is little you can do but some people will be much more able to listen to your point of view and hear you. Also it is hard to be calm when these issues cause such passions in us however showing that too much can also keep others from hearing your message. Temper your passions, be calm and have a smile - these are ways you can disarm people and make them comfortable so they can hear you.

One last thing - good friends are hard to find - don't let your passions push them away. On the other hand, if a friend turns their back on your because they don't believe what you believe then how much of a friend were they really?

My humble opinion - for what its worth :)

micahnelson
11-02-2007, 10:34 AM
In a few months the economy is going to bottom out. We will not be able to borrow money to support the foreign policy we have right now.

The wisdom war will have to become a non-issue. There are a lot of wars that people can justify in one way or another, but frankly America cannot afford them.

We can make a logical approach to why it benefits society that all children have good educations, families have homes, babies have top medical care, seniors have retirement, cats and dogs get neutered, etc etc...

The questions always come down to.
1) Is it wise?
2) Can we afford it?

Even if you think our foreign policy is wise, its a moot point. It might seem like a good idea to them, just like 5,000 dollars for each child in the USA, but it is not something we can afford to do. There is no getting around that point. We can't afford it. Period.

Original_Intent
11-02-2007, 10:50 AM
In a few months the economy is going to bottom out. We will not be able to borrow money to support the foreign policy we have right now.

The wisdom war will have to become a non-issue. There are a lot of wars that people can justify in one way or another, but frankly America cannot afford them.

We can make a logical approach to why it benefits society that all children have good educations, families have homes, babies have top medical care, seniors have retirement, cats and dogs get neutered, etc etc...

The questions always come down to.
1) Is it wise?
2) Can we afford it?

Even if you think our foreign policy is wise, its a moot point. It might seem like a good idea to them, just like 5,000 dollars for each child in the USA, but it is not something we can afford to do. There is no getting around that point. We can't afford it. Period.

Of course, the neo-con answer to this will be "Can we afford NOT to (fight the war)?" It doesn't make any sense but they will keep the lemmings running over the cliff's edge...

JenHarris
11-02-2007, 10:59 AM
What I have found is this:
Show people all the ways they agree with Ron. Get them to say hey I like everything he is for except the war. Then you get to say, looking at ALL the issues which candidate do you agree with most? Then find a way to end the conversation. Let them think about it for a bit and they end up coming your way. That's how I won both of my parents anyway. Both of them are fundamentalist Christians.

micahnelson
11-02-2007, 11:03 AM
Of course, the neo-con answer to this will be "Can we afford NOT to (fight the war)?" It doesn't make any sense but they will keep the lemmings running over the cliff's edge...

Can we afford to have our troops overseas when we cannot purchase oil to bring them home?

Yes Terrorism is a threat, but compared to the military vulnerability of the mainland united states, it is minor. We can survive a few terrorist attacks, but we cannot survive a military strike from Russia or China when our soldiers are in the middle east without fuel to get home.

Neo-cons want to worry about something? Try this.

1) Saudi Arabia begins accepting mixed euro-dollar payments for oil under international pressure.
2) National Banks begin dumping the Dollar as a reserve currency, major players leave the US market, the IMF does nothing as they are tired of the US monetary policy and are looking to put economic control in globalist friendly Europe. (They have indicated they believe the dollar is weak)
3) Gas prices surge and politicians, afraid of the public, release most of the strategic oil reserve despite military objections(they have done this in the past)
4) Saudi Arabia's OPEC abandons the dollar all together.
5) Hyperinflation of the US Dollar due to the Feds attempt to keep banks solvent.
6) Bank Runs, Food Runs, Rioting at home
7) US Begins an emergency pull out of forces around the world. This is hampered by the inability to obtain oil. The hasty retreat makes us vulnerable and many terrorist attacks occur in the process.
8) China and the Europeans claim rights to US Property in return for the US's inability to pay for its debt.
9) Troops trickle in from around the world only to find Chaos in the streets, extremely limited fuel availability, and the impending threat of invasion over international debt.

Welcome to America after the economic collapse, unless we get some decent leadership.

Ozwest
11-02-2007, 11:05 AM
No disrespect, but a lot of American Christians don't really understand the Bible. Well, so far as I read it.

Ozwest
11-02-2007, 11:09 AM
I don't mean to be disrespectful to self-thinking Christians.

hatefalseweight
11-02-2007, 11:15 AM
Rambling ideas follow:

Mike Huckabee is currently being thoroughly trashed by Jerome Corsi and Phyllis Schlafly on WND for his facilitation of illegal immigration for the Tyson boys and other big corporate goons in AK. Someone on WND also pointed out his kissing up to the CFR with a foreign policy speech to one of the neocon think tanks and he is suddely getting puffed by the media. WND, Janet Folger and the Christian radio crowd are trying to puff Huckabee also, but they have also been on the NAU story and giving Corsi a lot of airtime.

The casual Christian politico thinks of little more than gays, Islamos, and abortion and pays no attention to their own hypocrisy of embracing unbiblical and unchristian principles. Being anti-gay or whatever is not the basis for a philosophy of national government or foreign relations.


Point out that our Republic is based on not just the 3 branches of the federal government with very limited and specified powers, but also that the mainstay of the republic is the local system of control as laid out in Deut 18 whereby Jethro told Moses to divide up the leadership responsiblilities by family units of 1000s, 100s, 50s and 10s. By and large justice and punishments were to be rendered within these units.

If you research the origins of our local system in the Anglo world, you will find a similar system of 10s (overseen by a 'tithingman') 100s ( 'reeve') and several hundreds (a shire-reeve) .... i.e this where we get the term "sheriff," and so our local sheriff is supposed to be the most powerful law enforcement official around. If you have a man starving his wife (i.e. Michael Schhiavo), you drag him before the sheriff, testify against him, and , using rough ANE justice, bash his head in and be done with it. None of this baloney running off to the nation's capital or the UN or anywhere else.

The Israelites were specifically ordered not to seek a king because they were under the rule of law, God's law, and were administer it locally, and not look to man for justice. Also, they were not to look to man for their protection from other wicked nations, but to God himself. They also were not supposed to go about willy-nilly attacking other nation's or stationing troops all over the world and going into debt to do it. They were to live out the covenant God gave them and to be an example to the world.

This is basically what Dr. Paul teaches. When Israel went for "big government" i.e. a king , they were warned what they would get i.e. high taxes, standing armies, enslavement to the ruling class, being led into wickedness and all the rest of it. Big government is just a copout for hypocrites who don't want to live out the covenant themselves in their local communities. We want the gays out of marriage, but the churches don't have much respect for marriage anymore either they way people tend to move around between spouses these days. etc

I also refer to things like the communist manifesto which has a nice little 10 point summary in i t on the ideas of godless collectivism: they include readily recognizable items such as "free" govt. schools, progressive income tax (IRS), central banking (Fed), the death tax , and centralization of the control of communications (note our spying system) and the economy.

The other thing is trying to get people to have a realistic view of how the world really works. Basically we have the corporate one world slave state being put into place and we're just being used by the one-worlders to knock each other off so they can clean up the remnants. They are trying to reduce the world's population and control the resources and if they can't get everyone on the china 1 child policy, they are willing to resort to war.

Do they know about the military bases going in in Iraq? Do they know a bout the 4,000 children dying every month from diarheaa and other wasting 3rd world diseases? Do they know about the taxi drivers who get shot in the throat chancing into a patrol that just got carbombed or Iraqi women who go shopping and happen into a road block with bad radio communication and get shot in the face? This happens by the 1000s every year ... the videos are all over the place. Do they know about the false flag bombing the British special forces tried to pull in Basra a couple years ago where 2 Brits got caught with a car full of explosives? etc etc etc

JohnFromChicago
11-02-2007, 01:11 PM
I'm a Christian too, and I think Ron Paul is the only candidate a Christian can vote for with a clear conscience. Here are my issues:

Pro-Life: I have long argued that pro-life is more than just anti-abortion. It means to support divinely created and divinely ended life. That means no capital punishment, and no war without justification, no euthanasia, no abortion, no cloning, no messing with the creation or destruction of human life. That's God's business not ours. Ron Paul is the only candidate that is consistent on these issues.

Freedom & Freewill: This is a fundamental Christian principle. God has seen to it we are free to do as we please; to serve Him, to serve ourselves, to good or evil is a right God has ordained to us. As far as government goes, it is not for the government to second guess or implement this other than to protect individual liberty. This is the precept that makes freedom the unifying transcendental principle in government - to ensure God's will for the freewill of man is preserved, thus rendering the management of mankind to God. Whether it's smoking pot, patronizing hookers, or going to the house of worship of your choice, God is on control and everything seeks and leads to His good purpose. Ron Paul is the only candidate that has shown any respect for the principle of divinely ordained freewill.

Love: John 15 says that we have only ten commandments, and one more; to love one another. As much as Christians would like to believe, neither Paul, James nor Peter issued commandments. They gave good godly advice. This command to love one another plays out in myriad ways in government. Is it love that puts felons in a data base and ensures they are made miserable for the rest of their lives? we are commanded to love our enemies, to pray for them and to heap upon their heads the coals of kindness. Is any of this being done in the Middle East or in either the domestic or foreign affairs of the US? Ron Paul is the only candidate that will not villianize Arabs, gays, and a myriad of other groups that we should be reaching out to with love and kindness. Let judgement be reserved for the Almighty Judge whose judgement is never wrong.

Romans 13: Neocons will use this verse to justify everything government does and condemn all dissent. Oddly enough, it didn't apply when Clinton was in office. But how can this be when the man who wrote it, Paul, spent over half his life in jail? The realit for Christian Americans is that Romans 13 speaks not about elected officials and their policies, but the Constitution. This is the supreme law of the land and authority that should govern us all. So the correct application of Romans 13 is to respect the Constitution as if it were God breathed. Ron Paul is the only candidate who has respect for our founding guiding document.

That should be enough. I often chastise Christians who blindly believe that Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh and other right wing demagogues have anything to do with righteousness or Christian doctrine. By their fruits you shall know them. Look at Iraq, look at the financial state of America, the oppressed state of so many of our people. Are these the fruits of godly men?

RP08
11-02-2007, 01:43 PM
I've talked with several close Christian friends who shocked me when they implied that they believe all this mess, and far worse to come, was intended by God to bring about the end times for his return.

Additionally, they have no problem with mandatory implanted RFID chips (mark of the beast), even if they would themselves resist it, as that would further prove their belief that the return is near.

I don't think a slim jim will work here.


.

tfelice
11-02-2007, 01:57 PM
I've talked with several close Christian friends who shocked me when they implied that they believe all this mess, and far worse to come, was intended by God to bring about the end times for his return.

Additionally, they have no problem with mandatory implanted RFID chips (mark of the beast), even if they would themselves resist it, as that would further prove their belief that the return is near.

I don't think a slim jim will work here.


.


Dispensationalists are a tough nut to crack when it comes to these issues. Concentrate on what can work. Once Huckabee drops out Paul will be the only pro-life Evangelical in the race. Even the more ardent Dispensationalist places the sanctity of life over support for Israel.

Captain Shays
11-02-2007, 02:07 PM
I'm a Christian too and yes, I have convinced some Christians.
First you need to get yourself brushed up on Ron Paul's pro-Chrisian attributes.
Then you need to brush up on a christian's proper attitude towards war and government. Then you need to brush up on bible prophesy and the evil forces at work as we speak which should be of concern to all Christians, for they not doubt hold a special sigificance relative to end times prophesies.

I'm not refering to conspiracy theories, but as the John Birch Society says, a very real conspiracy called the New World Order.
This NWO is the name for the plan of very powerful world leaders behind the sceness and in the public eye, in government and industry, particulaily banking and the military industrial complex. Oil included in the latter. These people hope to some day control all of the wealth and every governent on the planet in the form of a one world govdernment.
Over the years, a method that Brezinski called, "progressive regionalization" was used to weave together the different components comprised of financial and governmental institutions. Some are called Trade Agreements that later and progressively take on more and more, the proper role of self determining governments and circumvent the democratic processes in free countries. And whether free or monarchial, the countries, one after another are losing their sense of sovereignty and self determination including the USA.

Start here
http://dowblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/more-on-ron-paul.html

To get a better understanding of Paul’s views relative to Christianity

The Sanctity of Life Act HR 776 Introduced in 2005 by Ron Paul
Would have ended abortion on demand
http://orientem.blogspot.com/2007/03/pro-life-paul.html



I'll bring more later

Captain Shays
11-02-2007, 02:13 PM
OK This link is very important to informing yourself about the Christian's proper attitude towards war and govenrment. The link will bring you to Laurence Vances many articles published on www.lewrockwell.com
He's written many books and articles on this subject.

Hope this helps. I'll try to dig up more for you

Pauliana
11-02-2007, 02:23 PM
Coming from a heavily Christian background, a lot of Christians, if you think about it, have something in common with some of our anarchist friends who hang around these parts...

Both want the bloody revolution.

Christians are eager for the second coming of Christ and see Armageddon and World War as a necessary step to fulfilling the Biblical prophecy. They really believe we are living in the end times, and all this talk of nuclear holocaust and spritual battle (with Islam. that's as good an antichrist as any) feeds into that. They secretly and fervently WANT a war. Now. Then they can see Jesus coming through the clouds to rapture them. It will be a beautiful sight and brings tears of joy to their eyes just to envision it.

There's unfortunately not much you can do with that line of thinking except maybe see if the person will identify that that is their underlying view of the situation, maybe ask "what if you're wrong and Bush is playing you for a chump? Actually if this is the end times would god need Bush's help to bring it about, and do you see the battle of Armageddon in actual physical battle terms, or spiritual terms, because Jesus was a spiritual leader, not a military one..."

Those kinds of questions... then talk about free will and economics, and how charity is a better way to take care of the poor than government wealth redistribution, and Jesus' example because you might find common ground with them there. You might.

Our anarchist friends have given up on the idea of changing the system from within and are ready for the bloody revolution to ensue.

I see both lines of thinking as scary. Just calm down and vote Ron Paul.

inibo
11-02-2007, 02:31 PM
Dispensationalists are a tough nut to crack when it comes to these issues. Concentrate on what can work. Once Huckabee drops out Paul will be the only pro-life Evangelical in the race. Even the more ardent Dispensationalist places the sanctity of life over support for Israel.

I wouldn't blame it on dispensationalism, per se. As a former dispensationalist, the pastor who taught me, and who I still very much respect, never for a moment thought there was anything humanity could do to force God's hand. He taught me that things will work out the way God intends and that my goal was to spread the gospel. I can only hope that reasonable positions like that will ultimately prevail.

thehittgirl
11-02-2007, 02:47 PM
Don't sweat it, just learn from the experience and try again in a different and better way. Know the just war theory. War is an ABSOLUTE last resort. If people want to bomb Iran without even talking to them first that is pretty wrong and makes us the agressor. Iran said they would sign a no nuke treaty if Israel did too.

Know Romans 13. The law of our land is the Constitution and must be followed, Bush et al is not the law or the true rule. Know the Constitution. Hand out a copy to people, you can buy pocket Constitutions cheap.

Know the evils of our foreign policy. Sanctions killing hundreds of thousand of innocent people. Is that pro life? Our tax dollars are used to support countries that persecute people, especially Christians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/07/28/saudi.arms/index.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/07/iraq/main2766003.shtml
http://www.worthynews.com/christian/pakistan-christian-converts-could-face-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/

Be a teacher. Ask people to explain in detail things like "Iran is a threat". there is usually nothing to back it up. Have people read Dr. Paul's a foreign policy of freedom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hCKZmkF0VU

In the end I am going to put my faith in the principles of the Bible, the Constitution, and the founding fathers. Not the politicians, bureaucrats, and media who lie to us and serve nothing but themselves.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9).



I had mentioned those who are pro war can't be pro life. It just made them angry.

thehittgirl
11-02-2007, 02:52 PM
The Israelites were specifically ordered not to seek a king because they were under the rule of law, God's law, and were administer it locally, and not look to man for justice. Also, they were not to look to man for their protection from other wicked nations, but to God himself. They also were not supposed to go about willy-nilly attacking other nation's or stationing troops all over the world and going into debt to do it. They were to live out the covenant God gave them and to be an example to the world.

This is basically what Dr. Paul teaches. When Israel went for "big government" i.e. a king , they were warned what they would get i.e. high taxes, standing armies, enslavement to the ruling class, being led into wickedness and all the rest of it. Big government is just a copout for hypocrites who don't want to live out the covenant themselves in their local communities. We want the gays out of marriage, but the churches don't have much respect for marriage anymore either they way people tend to move around between spouses these days. etc

I also refer to things like the communist manifesto which has a nice little 10 point summary in i t on the ideas of godless collectivism: they include readily recognizable items such as "free" govt. schools, progressive income tax (IRS), central banking (Fed), the death tax , and centralization of the control of communications (note our spying system) and the economy.

The other thing is trying to get people to have a realistic view of how the world really works. Basically we have the corporate one world slave state being put into place and we're just being used by the one-worlders to knock each other off so they can clean up the remnants. They are trying to reduce the world's population and control the resources and if they can't get everyone on the china 1 child policy, they are willing to resort to war.

Do they know about the military bases going in in Iraq? Do they know a bout the 4,000 children dying every month from diarheaa and other wasting 3rd world diseases? Do they know about the taxi drivers who get shot in the throat chancing into a patrol that just got carbombed or Iraqi women who go shopping and happen into a road block with bad radio communication and get shot in the face? This happens by the 1000s every year ... the videos are all over the place. Do they know about the false flag bombing the British special forces tried to pull in Basra a couple years ago where 2 Brits got caught with a car full of explosives? etc etc etc

Snipped for brevity...I hope it's ok but I'd like to copy and paste this. Great explanations...thank you.

thehittgirl
11-02-2007, 02:56 PM
I've talked with several close Christian friends who shocked me when they implied that they believe all this mess, and far worse to come, was intended by God to bring about the end times for his return.

Additionally, they have no problem with mandatory implanted RFID chips (mark of the beast), even if they would themselves resist it, as that would further prove their belief that the return is near.

I don't think a slim jim will work here.


.

:eek: So you can sympathize then. It's so frustrating.

thehittgirl
11-02-2007, 03:05 PM
Coming from a heavily Christian background, a lot of Christians, if you think about it, have something in common with some of our anarchist friends who hang around these parts...

Both want the bloody revolution.

Christians are eager for the second coming of Christ and see Armageddon and World War as a necessary step to fulfilling the Biblical prophecy. They really believe we are living in the end times, and all this talk of nuclear holocaust and spritual battle (with Islam. that's as good an antichrist as any) feeds into that. They secretly and fervently WANT a war. Now. Then they can see Jesus coming through the clouds to rapture them. It will be a beautiful sight and brings tears of joy to their eyes just to envision it.

There's unfortunately not much you can do with that line of thinking except maybe see if the person will identify that that is their underlying view of the situation, maybe ask "what if you're wrong and Bush is playing you for a chump? Actually if this is the end times would god need Bush's help to bring it about, and do you see the battle of Armageddon in actual physical battle terms, or spiritual terms, because Jesus was a spiritual leader, not a military one..."

Those kinds of questions... then talk about free will and economics, and how charity is a better way to take care of the poor than government wealth redistribution, and Jesus' example because you might find common ground with them there. You might.

Our anarchist friends have given up on the idea of changing the system from within and are ready for the bloody revolution to ensue.

I see both lines of thinking as scary. Just calm down and vote Ron Paul.

You know what makes me mad about that though? It's like they're trying to control what is to come. A Christian is supposed to run on God's timing. I really don't care for John Hagee. He's a prime example of one who wants war for Armageddon.

Meatwasp
11-02-2007, 03:05 PM
This is changing the subject some what. But I really worry when Ron gets elected who can stop the Neocons from jumping on board and ruining the whole thing?
I am sure they seek power anywhere.
Will Christians allow this to happen?

tfelice
11-02-2007, 04:44 PM
I wouldn't blame it on dispensationalism, per se. As a former dispensationalist, the pastor who taught me, and who I still very much respect, never for a moment thought there was anything humanity could do to force God's hand. He taught me that things will work out the way God intends and that my goal was to spread the gospel. I can only hope that reasonable positions like that will ultimately prevail.

Agreed. But I will say the mindset that was referenced earlier certainly comes out more from the Dispensationalists that from the other eschatological positions.

Perry
11-02-2007, 04:54 PM
I'm a Christian myself, so this is by no means an attack.

I think I tried too hard, or something...I'm so passionate that I looked angry. I tried to convert Christian friends, at least if anything to see how wrong this war is. Unfortunately, they associate my feelings with Ron's and it drove them away. They also thought I came across as thinking I was better than they are. UGH. So I am going to stop trying at least for now.

I am just wondering has anyone successfully talked sense into pro war Christians?

I was close to one of them, and I feel like I've lost her.

Even the elect will be deceived...

Ozwest
11-02-2007, 04:56 PM
Aren't Christians in America broadly divided into 2 factions?

tfelice
11-02-2007, 05:13 PM
Aren't Christians in America broadly divided into 2 factions?

To a point yes. Those would be Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism.

jb4ronpaul
11-02-2007, 05:16 PM
remember when Jesus sends out the Apostles, he instructs them to talk to people, and if they do not respond shake the dust from your feet and move on.

Man from La Mancha
11-02-2007, 05:16 PM
To a point yes. Those would be Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism.
Is that anything like Shi`ahs & Sunnis?:)

.

Ozwest
11-02-2007, 05:28 PM
To a point yes. Those would be Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism.

Now you're messing with me hehe. What I mean is people who study the scriptures and people who have the scriptures interpreted for them.

libertygrl
11-02-2007, 06:31 PM
I had mentioned those who are pro war can't be pro life. It just made them angry.

The truth hurts! I think that's why some have trouble with Ron Paul. He just tells it like it is.

thehittgirl
11-02-2007, 06:32 PM
The truth hurts! I think that's why some have trouble with Ron Paul. He just tells it like it is.


Yes! I have to remind myself of that.

libertygrl
11-02-2007, 06:44 PM
Forgot to ask - When I discuss the war and why it's wrong to be there, some people respond that it doesn't matter why we went in. It only matters that we are there now and we just can't "cut and run." What about the poor Iraqi people who we promised to help? Do you want us to just run out on them? Do you want that on your conscience?

I can't say that I disagree with them entirely. I know the war is a complete fraud, but we've made a huge mess out of those peoples lives over there. I know Ron Paul says that if we were to leave, it doesn't necessarily mean that it will make things worse for them. But what if it does? What if the insurgents take over the government? Will we at least do something humanitarily? It is afterall, out fault.

Phenom24
11-02-2007, 07:29 PM
Hittgirl -

I'm a Christian as well, and in conversations with church members I've learned two things:

1) Attacking or going on any type of offensive will get you responses like "You sound like a liberal" - so that's a no-win situation.

2) Now Christians seem so eager NOT TO LOSE, just tell them they need to vote for Ron when he gets the nomination so HILLARY WON'T GET ELECTED. They usually go for that.

But in all seriousness, the thing that I have been thinking about the most is:

"If Bill O'Reilly or Mark Levin said the Bible was a bunch of lies, would you believe them? No, of course not, because you know the FACTS. So why do you automatically assume that everything the newscaster says is completely honest? You do realize that Rupert Murdoch has donated to Hillary Clinton's campaign, right?"

One other thing is that when I was growing up my Pastor always said "Chew up the meat and spit out the bones" and I think many Christians are doing the opposite.. Just letting Hannity & Co. fill their brains with crap without even a thought of "Is this the truth?"

Pray for them - you'll quickly find out who the thinkers are vs. the sheep.

Go get 'em.

:)

weatherbill
11-02-2007, 08:24 PM
I'm finding alot of my fellow christians don't even want to know what's going on. It amazes me how much they use scripture to be idle bench warmers. They also make the mistake of taking past elections and being synical about all politics, when this election is special becasue we have a righteous man running that can make real change. They are not discerning the difference! It grieves me that the sheeple are so sheeple! I wish they would be thinking christians.
I was so encouraged to meet with my local ronpaul meetup.com group for the first time the other day. it was a breath of fresh air to finally meet Christian brethren who veleived what i beleived. For too long, i;ve been in this one chat room of dumbed down christians who just want to live idle and care free and can't discern this election.
So what I'm now concentrating on is strategic spread of Ron Paul's name.... Name recognition is key. We are gonna start flyering out churches, gun shows, etc , busy highway exit signs, and just do mass spread of Ron's name. We have till Feb 5th here in TN, only 3 months away for most states, so hope we all give it the best push we got to win the vote!

M.Bellmore
11-03-2007, 10:08 AM
Hey who says hucklebees cant be useful.


I just found this GREAT RESOURCE through Citizenlink. THIS IS FANTASTIC!!
GUIDELINES for POLITICAL ACTIVITIES by CHURCHES and PASTORS. This is put out by the James Madison Center for Free Speech, funded by a grant from the Alliance Defense Fund.

So much of the evangelical support for Huck has been hamstrung by the lack of accurate information and the fear of the law and the IRS. THIS DOCUMENT ADDRESSES THESE ISSUES, specifically as it pertains to pastors and churches.

http://www.citizenlink.org/images/ivotevalues/docs/whatslegal.pdf
(Note: I contacted Mr. Bopp today, and he confirmed that the March 2006 version is updated and current.)

This is a must read for all 501(c)(3) organizations. There was a small table highlighting a few points, but I'm sorry, I couldn't get it to load on this page. But, here are just a few examples:

ACTIVITY
Endorse a canidate for political office? CHURCH: NO PASTOR: Yes

Allow candidates to speak on church
premises? CHURCH: Yes PASTOR: N/A

Rent list of church members to candidate
for fundraising purposes (at fair market
value)? CHURCH: Yes PASTOR: N/A

Distribute Voter Guides CHURCH: Yes PASTOR: Yes

Engage in voter registration, voter identification, get out the votet, voter education ? CHURCH: Yes PASTOR: Yes

(sorry, the examples are a bit cramped & confusing..)

Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to load the table on the page, but if you are specifically interested in it, I do have it posted on my blog: http://christiansforhuckabeemobilize.blogspot.com/2007/10/501c3-christians-equip-yourselves.html

But the table in it's entirety, is also included in the body of the entire 11 page article at the Citizenlink link above.

Friends, this is a great tool to help inform and encourage pastors, churches and non-profit organizations to get involved, to let their voices be heard, and to help mobilize the Evangelical Christian vote.



For those interested, here is the first page of the document, "GUIDELINES for POLITICAL ACTIVITIES by CHURCHES and PASTORS."

LET'S CIRCULATE THIS!!!

James Madison Center for Free Speech
GUIDELINES for March 2006
POLITICAL ACTIVITIES
by CHURCHES AND PASTORS
_________________________
by James Bopp, Jr. General Counsel
James Madison Center for Free Speech
in association with the Alliance Defense Fund

As the 2006 elections approach, and various groups begin again their intimidation tactics in an effort to silence churches and pastors about the great social and moral issues of our time,
churches and pastors need clear guidelines for permissible political activities. In response to that need, the James Madison Center for Free Speech and the Alliance Defense Fund are providing these guidelines3 and will respond free of charge to inquiries by churches, pastors, and priests on permissible political activities through informal e-mails, telephone advice and legal opinion letters.* The Alliance Defense Fund has provided a grant to the James Madison Center for Free Speech for this purpose.

These guidelines summarize the requirements of the Federal Election Campaign Act and

James Madison Center for Free Speech, 1 South 6th Street, Terre Haute, IN 47807, voice
812-232-2434, fax 812-235-3685, www.jamesmadisoncenter.org e-mail
madisoncenter@aol.com.

Alliance Defense Fund, 15333 North Prima Road, Suite 165, Scottsdale, AZ 85260,
www.alliancedefensefund.org.

The James Madison Center for Free Speech encourages you to copy and share these
guidelines with anyone who may benefit from their use.

*Requests for a formal opinion letter involving substantial legal research are not covered
by the grant. If a request falls into this category, the requesting pastor or priest will be notified assoon as possible so that appropriate arrangements may be made to answer this request.



Here' more info from Liberty Counsel:

http://www.lc.org/resources/pastors_churches_politics.htm
http://lc.org/index.cfm?PID=15257

ryan benitez
11-03-2007, 10:58 PM
Yes! I have to remind myself of that.

I think it is best to focus on people who have been turned away by politics and pull them back into the party with Ron Paul. You can also use Rudy as an example that the neo-cons are really just ex-democrats, in Rudys case literally.

M.Bellmore
11-04-2007, 08:44 PM
I could use a few comments on the article I am crafting:

Why won’t Christian leaders endorse a candidate?

As the whole debate among the evangelical Christian leaders raged, a theme began to unfold; the Christian leadership will not endorse a candidate. They choose to sit on the sidelines, throw mud, complain, but do nothing about the situation. They stamp their feet like spoiled children, have their secret meetings, and say, “If Giuliani is the republican candidate, we will go third party.” Why will they not get behind a strong traditional Christian candidate, even though he is not one of the so-called “front-runners”. Is it because they cannot do so because of 501C(3) laws? No! It is perfectly legal for a pastor to personally endorse a candidate, but the church cannot. However, not all pastors are unwilling to back the only candidate that personifies all of the conservative Christian values, including Constantine's Just War Theory. If the Just War theory had been applied we would not have entered the Iraq War. Pastor Chuck Baldwin fully supports Dr. Ron Paul, writes articles supporting traditional values, and speaks at Ron Paul events. I encourage the rest of the Christian leadership across the nation to follow suit before it is too late to do anything but complain about the results in 2008.

Alabama Supporter
11-04-2007, 10:28 PM
We need a great Ron Paul video on Godtube. I've yet to see one. Maybe I should go buy a dummies guide to youtube production and make one this week...

nigh_eve
11-04-2007, 10:50 PM
Money talks.

One of the strongest suits that Dr. Paul holds is his view on the corrupt monetary policy. We cannot continue to borrow and print money and not expect consequences. None of the other candidates will talk about this or deal with it. I think they are content to spend the futures of our children and grandchildren with no intention of paying it back, which I've convinced at least one Christian friend, to be immoral.

Remind your Christian friends of Proverbs 22:7

The rich rules over the poor,
And the borrower becomes the lender's slave.

If we're not careful, we'll all be worshipping Confucious!

Kade
11-05-2007, 03:44 PM
Point them to Augustine's City of God which is the best articulation of the Just War Doctrine.

Also, to some extent we might need to wait out the Huckabee campaign. When Huckabee eventually drops out, Paul will be the only pro-life Evangelical left in the race. So even though a Christian voter may disagree with his foreign policy, his other attributes may be strong enough to justify a vote.

Great, call someone who opposes the fact that Ron Paul is Evangelical Pro-Lifer a single issue voter, but use it to attract the largest group of halfwits this side of Pakistan.

The "stubborn" Theocrats of the Fascist Republican party are not going to waste their vote on anyone who values diversity and differences of opinion. They don't want to vote anymore, and they actively fight to get their rights taken away.

The concept of a "Christian Voter" is the most damaging evidence that this country is run by a majority of Cromwellian troglodytes loyal to the type of government that His Highness, George Bush II, employs.

I'm curious, because this type of thing always gets me thinking..

When the non-believers, gays, heathens, homeless, scientists, and academic professors are gone, who are you going to turn against?

Oh yea, this stuff... (http://www.lepg.org/wars.htm)

Christian voters. pfft.

Try convincing them to think. Remind them that faith is a personal issue, and should be left that way. Don't resort to a tactic that people on here readily insult others for using...

If you make this upcoming presidency about values, we lose perspective on what matters. Our economy should be the focus, and this is why, as an atheist, I am as close as I am to supporting, and actively bringing support, from the undesirables of your precious families values-driven society.

If I can convince hundreds of thousands of people to vote for Ron Paul among atheists, scientists, gays, pagans, deists, Satanists, and professors, than you people shouldn't have such a damn hard time convincing the "single issue" zombie genuflects over.

M.Bellmore
11-05-2007, 03:50 PM
Great, call someone who opposes the fact that Ron Paul is Evangelical Pro-Lifer a single issue voter, but use it to attract the largest group of halfwits this side of Pakistan.

The "stubborn" Theocrats of the Fascist Republican party are not going to waste their vote on anyone who values diversity and differences of opinion. They don't want to vote anymore, and they actively fight to get their rights taken away.

The concept of a "Christian Voter" is the most damaging evidence that this country is run by a majority of Cromwellian troglodytes loyal to the type of government that His Highness, George Bush II, employs.

I'm curious, because this type of thing always gets me thinking..

When the non-believers, gays, heathens, homeless, scientists, and academic professors are gone, who are you going to turn against?

Oh yea, this stuff... (http://www.lepg.org/wars.htm)

Christian voters. pfft.

Try convincing them to think. Remind them that faith is a personal issue, and should be left that way. Don't resort to a tactic that people on here readily insult others for using...

If you make this upcoming presidency about values, we lose perspective on what matters. Our economy should be the focus, and this is why, as an atheist, I am as close as I am to supporting, and actively bringing support, from the undesirables of your precious families values-driven society.

If I can convince hundreds of thousands of people to vote for Ron Paul among atheists, scientists, gays, pagans, deists, Satanists, and professors, than you people shouldn't have such a damn hard time convincing the "single issue" zombie genuflects over.

I'm not sure how this helps win over Christian voters, but whatever.

Kade
11-05-2007, 03:57 PM
I'm not sure how this helps win over Christian voters, but whatever.

There's that special concept again.

Yea, seriously, whatever. I don't care about Christian voters. If they vote for another dictator, than this country voted itself out of a democracy, and who are we to argue with any of the founder's warnings about that...?

M.Bellmore
11-05-2007, 04:10 PM
There's that special concept again.

Yea, seriously, whatever. I don't care about Christian voters. If they vote for another dictator, than this country voted itself out of a democracy, and who are we to argue with any of the founder's warnings about that...?

I don't follow your logic. If you want to focus on a group of voters (especially a large group) to try and win them over for Ron Paul, is there something wrong with that?

coffeewithchess
11-05-2007, 04:55 PM
I'm a Christian myself, so this is by no means an attack.

I think I tried too hard, or something...I'm so passionate that I looked angry. I tried to convert Christian friends, at least if anything to see how wrong this war is. Unfortunately, they associate my feelings with Ron's and it drove them away. They also thought I came across as thinking I was better than they are. UGH. So I am going to stop trying at least for now.

I am just wondering has anyone successfully talked sense into pro war Christians?

I was close to one of them, and I feel like I've lost her.

I know what you are saying here....I used to do the same thing. I was SO PASSIONATE, that I would come across as angry and "CRAZY", and like you said, people thinking that I thought I was better than them. Then my wonderful wife spoke with me, after I had a heated debate/argument with a friend over a political matter. She told me that it wasn't what I was saying, but how I was saying it. Instead of trying to convince them Iraq is wrong, ask them questions. Ask them if they know how much the United States is in debt, how much are we borrowing on a daily basis, etc. By asking questions, you will open the minds of the people and have them openly listen to you. Also, the best thing to do is simply apologize to your friend. Say, "I know I came across as angry and "holier than thou", I didn't mean to, this is something I'm just passionate about. Please forgive me." Then it's up to your friend.

sugaki
11-07-2007, 06:42 PM
There's that special concept again.

Yea, seriously, whatever. I don't care about Christian voters. If they vote for another dictator, than this country voted itself out of a democracy, and who are we to argue with any of the founder's warnings about that...?

Yes, blame it on the Christian voters. Because when the war started, the majority of the population wasn't in support of the war or anything. It was only the magical, 30% neocons. Please.

pcosmar
11-07-2007, 08:42 PM
Yes, blame it on the Christian voters. Because when the war started, the majority of the population wasn't in support of the war or anything. It was only the magical, 30% neocons. Please.

When it was started it was marketed and sold through the media.
As usual they did a good job of selling lies.
People are waking up.

weatherbill
11-10-2007, 04:48 PM
I have a great Ron Paul flyer for churches. PM me your email to get it..... !

carpe diem....seize this day

sugaki
11-11-2007, 01:22 AM
When it was started it was marketed and sold through the media.
As usual they did a good job of selling lies.
People are waking up.

That's irrelevant. People blaming it on the neocons, then side-stepped the issue by saying "media told us lies!" is just an excuse. It was an obvious fluke from the beginning. If people get easily fooled by "media," it's still the people's fault.

Kade has some obvious issues, too. Christians can't think? I don't see much thinking coming from you, considering you call Bush a dictator. Last I checked, dictators don't get voted in by an electoral college, then voted in again. Not to mention the fact that our system of democracy has this thing called checks and balances. The legislative branch can overrule presidential vetos with enough of a consensus (2/3). Pelosi-led democratic Congress just recently overruled a veto on spending for levees and post-Katrina reconstruction. So no, Bush isn't a dictator, just an incompetent president. He didn't somehow nullify the powers of the legislative and judiciary branch in the span of two terms.

Tired of these lame ad hominems, especially coming from somebody with a whole lot of rhetoric and not a lot of knowledge.

SteveB-NY
11-11-2007, 10:52 PM
I apppreciated an earlier poster's quotes from the Pope as a point of reference for Catholic voters. I am less convinced however that St. Augustine is a winnable arguement as it can be argued [perhaps not well] that the invasion of Iraq was designed to liberate the Iraqis from tyranny.
The problem I face when discussing Ron Paul after mass on a Sunday or around the community is that in my area, 19 miles north of ground zero, the concept of Deo et Patria has become heavily loaded in favor of the latter. It is fair to describe the predominant point of view as "kill them all, let God sort them out".
My approach, which I admit has mixed sucess, is to point out that Ron Paul is not anti-military, in fact he is a Vietnam era veteran, he is not a "blame America" guy as Rudy tried to paint him but rather a thoughtful man who studies the issues and tries to understand the why so that we can avoid another attack.
Finally, I argue that even if you assume that everything we were told prior to the invasion was absolutely correct, and that Sadam was violating U.N. resolutions left right and center, the question comes down to is Cofffey Annan's prestige worth the two new headstones in the graveyard behind our church.
It is the media portrayal of Congressman Paul that is the biggest problem I run into.

Marceline88
11-11-2007, 11:07 PM
I would direct stubborn Christians to the man who said these pesky words.....

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God"

And remind them that the Lord is the Prince of Peace, and Peace is not a dirty word, it's the goal.

sugaki
11-12-2007, 06:11 PM
I would direct stubborn Christians to the man who said these pesky words.....

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God"

And remind them that the Lord is the Prince of Peace, and Peace is not a dirty word, it's the goal.

Taking that verse a bit out of context though (assuming you're applying that to the war in Iraq).

I can find verses in the bible and use them out of context to justify war too. The same said:

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. Matt 10:34

J4ck
11-12-2007, 06:34 PM
'pro war christians' = ?
no offense.

Marceline88
11-12-2007, 06:39 PM
Taking that verse a bit out of context though (assuming you're applying that to the war in Iraq).

I can find verses in the bible and use them out of context to justify war too. The same said:

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. Matt 10:34

I don't think I am taking it out of context at all. I am applying it to all war and violence.

As for the above verse....did Jesus ever actually pick up a sword? No. Was he speaking literally here? No, he was speaking metaphorically, metaphysically. I believe the only sword he wielded was the sword of truth. And the truth will certainly set a man against his own father and family members at times, does it not?

sugaki
11-12-2007, 07:24 PM
As for the above verse....did Jesus ever actually pick up a sword? No. Was he speaking literally here? No, he was speaking metaphorically, metaphysically. I believe the only sword he wielded was the sword of truth. And the truth will certainly set a man against his own father and family members at times, does it not?

Jesus never picked up a sword, but he also told his disciples that they could carry a sword. My point is Matthew 5 doesn't preach wholesale pacifism. Heck, God commanded the Jewish people to wipe out whole civilizations, children and all.

Nicketas
11-14-2007, 10:17 AM
,.,.,

traitorist
11-14-2007, 12:24 PM
wow, so Kade (and others I've seen posting on this forum) is willing to throw away the votes of what amounts to approximately 70% of the American people, who believe in God or consider themselves Christian, in the name of his hatred and disdain for them and their religious beliefs?

Oh yeah, and blame them all too for our political current mess?

Pffft to you.

Very un-Ron Paul.

Primbs
11-14-2007, 12:27 PM
There are some just war text books that Georgetown University used for teaching in the early 1980s.

They explain just war from a practical point of view.

traitorist
11-14-2007, 12:38 PM
in response to the OP, don't fret it. many times it is not how you delivered the information, it is how they received it. it hurts, but we all make mistakes, pick yourself up and move on. apologize, forgive and keep loving your friend. i too, have lost 'Christian' friends for my anti-war stance, but I know that Jesus commanded us to love even our enemies, and he also commanded us to come out of the apostate church, so I have. losing friends has just been part of that process. i've made new ones since then. the truth is going to drive many of your friends away, that's part of the walk we were promised. we weren't promised to be loved by the world, but hated by it. the hard truth is that many who call themselves brother and sister in the church are going to betray us in the end. a prayer of strength for you.

truthbetold
11-15-2007, 09:35 AM
The reaction your getting is from someone who knows they are wrong subconciously but can't accept the responsibility of supporting the death of so many innocents.

From RP Statement of Faith..
~~~~~~~~~~~~``
I have also acted to protect the lives of Americans by my adherence to the doctrine of “just war.” This doctrine, as articulated by Augustine, suggested that war must only be waged as a last resort--- for a discernible moral and public good, with the right intentions, vetted through established legal authorities (a constitutionally required declaration of the Congress), and with a likely probability of success.

It has been and remains my firm belief that the current United Nations-mandated, no-win police action in Iraq fails to meet the high moral threshold required to wage just war. That is why I have offered moral and practical opposition to the invasion, occupation and social engineering police exercise now underway in Iraq. It is my belief, borne out by five years of abject failure and tens of thousands of lost lives, that the Iraq operation has been a dangerous diversion from the rightful and appropriate focus of our efforts to bring to justice to the jihadists that have attacked us and seek still to undermine our nation, our values, and our way of life.

I opposed giving the president power to wage unlimited and unchecked aggression, However, I did vote to support the use of force in Afghanistan. I also authored H.R. 3076, the September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001. A letter of marque and reprisal is a constitutional tool specifically designed to give the president the authority to respond with appropriate force to those non-state actors who wage aggression against the United States while limiting his authority to only those responsible for the atrocities of that day. Such a limited authorization is consistent with the doctrine of just war and the practical aim of keeping Americans safe while minimizing the costs in blood and treasure of waging such an operation.

On September 17, 2001, I stated on the house floor that “…striking out at six or eight or even ten different countries could well expand this war of which we wanted no part. Without defining the enemy there is no way to know our precise goal or to know when the war is over. Inadvertently more casual acceptance of civilian deaths as part of this war I'm certain will prolong the agony and increase the chances of even more American casualties. We must guard against this if at all possible.” I’m sorry to say that history has proven this to be true.

truthbetold
11-15-2007, 09:37 AM
I've lost many clients and suffered financially because of supporting RP.

Make sure they understand that we are not going after the terrorist but invading a country that did not attack us and have caused between 1/2 and a million deaths of civilians, women and children. Much higher if you take into account of the years of restrictions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
. Paul “Keep your Eye on The Target” Osama Bin Ladin. Ron Paul the Real Terrorist Terminator!

Congressman Paul wrote a column in November of 2001 urging Congress to "keep an eye on its target," the target being Osama bin Laden and others responsible for the 9/11 attacks. He warned, "In the undeclared wars of Vietnam and Korea, the enemy was known and clearly defined, even though our policies were confused and contradictory. Today our policies relating to the growth of terrorism are also confused and contradictory; however, the precise enemy and its location are not known by anyone. Until the enemy is defined and understood, it cannot be accurately targeted or vanquished." Dr. Paul supported the U.S. military intervention into Afghanistan to find bin Laden and take him out. Ron Paul wants to go after the real terrorist, not use terrorism as an excuse to invade countries.

The Constitution provides a means of going after terrorist / “pirates” through letters of marque and reprisal. We should be going after Bin Ladin. “If you were attacked by the mafia you wouldn’t invade Italy!” There is no need for the U.S. to go to war or invade a country when going after a group of terrorist.

Congressman Paul has been the only member of Congress to authorize the U.S. State Department to issue such letters of marque and reprisal. As economist Fred Foldvary writes, "The Founders of the U.S. Constitution included Marque and Reprisal in addition to authorizing Congress to declare war, so that in some cases, the U.S. government would not have to engage the military and have a costly war. The risk would then be concentrated on those who chose to engage in the reprisal. This empowers private citizens to protect themselves and other Americans." Under a bill sponsored by Dr. Paul in 2008, private U.S. citizens would be able to hunt down, attack and collect assets from terrorists who have or are planning to commit hostile acts against the U.S. and its citizens. The bill introduced by Paul is a Constitutional method of dealing with the terrorists. The War in Iraq is an unconstitutional method of dealing with the terrorists

Dr. Paul will Terminate The Terrorist through Constitutional means not giving up your liberty and destroying the constitution as all other candidates Republican or Democrat Support. He supports securing U.S. borders and bringing U.S. troops home and counter-intelligence to prevent future terrorist attacks.

“Those who are willing to sacrifice liberty for security will have neither.”

truthbetold
11-15-2007, 09:44 AM
One last thing ~ most christians are pro-life.
Make the distinction between RP and all others on this issue.

RP has a plan that will effectivly nullify Roe V Wade with a signature. All others philisophically are pro life but just hope to appoint a judge and maybe someday....

God will not judge christians by who other people vote for, but for who they vote for. Electibility is not a excuse in the kingdom of heaven.

Do they really want to have to answer to G-d for the millions of babies that will be killed if any other republican or democrat gets in office.
For those who really believe it is Murder, then if they do not vote for Ron PAul in the primary they are accessories to murder. They are in part responsible for each infant aborted from 2009 - on....

Sounds like some serious purgatory for catholics and some "weeping and gnashing of teeth for protestants."

AGAIN ANYONE WHO CLAIMS ABORTION IS MURDER WILL BE IN PART A CO-DEFENDANT IN THE HEAVENLY MURDER TRIAL OF THESE CHILDREN..

Kade
11-20-2007, 02:54 PM
Yes, blame it on the Christian voters. Because when the war started, the majority of the population wasn't in support of the war or anything. It was only the magical, 30% neocons. Please.

You moron. The majority of the population are Christian voters. WTF is this rampant ignorance here?

Kade
11-20-2007, 03:13 PM
One last thing ~ most christians are pro-life.
Make the distinction between RP and all others on this issue.

RP has a plan that will effectivly nullify Roe V Wade with a signature. All others philisophically are pro life but just hope to appoint a judge and maybe someday....

God will not judge christians by who other people vote for, but for who they vote for. Electibility is not a excuse in the kingdom of heaven.

Do they really want to have to answer to G-d for the millions of babies that will be killed if any other republican or democrat gets in office.
For those who really believe it is Murder, then if they do not vote for Ron PAul in the primary they are accessories to murder. They are in part responsible for each infant aborted from 2009 - on....

Sounds like some serious purgatory for catholics and some "weeping and gnashing of teeth for protestants."

AGAIN ANYONE WHO CLAIMS ABORTION IS MURDER WILL BE IN PART A CO-DEFENDANT IN THE HEAVENLY MURDER TRIAL OF THESE CHILDREN..

Unless of course the obvious and most rational option is true; that your religion is a worthless delusion, and heaven, like hell, is a figment of bloated and evil minds frothing with the simplicity of a single color Rubik's cube. Seriously, your religion, and all its' thousands of variants, from Mormonism down to Westboro are the only original sin of mankind. This is anger. Anger at how ostensibly close minded and shallow of a person you demonstrate yourself to be... and yet, it will be I who is roasted, because nobody can see the kind of hate something as simple as a declaration of eternal torment really is...

You can't even type out GOD. You are literally insane. A normal, sane, non-deluded adult should be able to read this pile of steaming religious vomit and see that. By every definition of the word you are insane.

Emphasis. Insanity.

Electibility is not a excuse in the kingdom of heaven.

Insane.

For those who really believe it is Murder, then if they do not vote for Ron PAul in the primary they are accessories to murder. They are in part responsible for each infant aborted from 2009 - on....

Insane.

Sounds like some serious purgatory for catholics and some "weeping and gnashing of teeth for protestants."

You require immediate hospitalization.



AGAIN ANYONE WHO CLAIMS ABORTION IS MURDER WILL BE IN PART A CO-DEFENDANT IN THE HEAVENLY MURDER TRIAL OF THESE CHILDREN..


And bingo. Of all the insurmountable proof of the rampant and unrelenting ignorance of fundamentalists, you, you are the shining glorification of all that is wrong with this world. Your mentality is the death of all people killed by tyranny, of all people put to death who railed against anything unjust. The blood of all those killed by the inquisition in on you, for reproducing the ignorance of our ancestors. You, with your shallow vitriol represent the stagnation of reason of mankind. Your life isn't lived for some imaginary god, no... No, no, you are fighting for your own glory, for your own immortality. Instead of working to make this world better for all people, you don't even worship, you pass judgment on all under the guise of being righteous. It is the GOD of punishment, and "I AM THE GREAT SNIVELING SIDEKICK". You worship the idea of immorality and you are afraid of not getting it... Read those words again. One day, before it is too late, perhaps your lasting legacy on this planet may come to some meaning... instead of being just another carcass of a person who used the fear of others to rant and rave themselves into a position of power.

You make me sick.

Roll on my friend, roll on. With all due respect (what little you may command) continue with your precious freedom of speech, just know, I am calling your shallow trite crap out, and honestly desire and wish for you would just shut the hell up.

idiom
11-23-2007, 03:39 PM
The Israelites were specifically ordered not to seek a king because they were under the rule of law, God's law, and were administer it locally, and not look to man for justice. Also, they were not to look to man for their protection from other wicked nations, but to God himself. They also were not supposed to go about willy-nilly attacking other nation's or stationing troops all over the world and going into debt to do it. They were to live out the covenant God gave them and to be an example to the world.

1st Samuel 8 is what you're talking about. References can help. But you are right, God likes anarchy for the most part. He considers individual responsibility to be pretty much absolute.


10 And Samuel told all the words of Jehovah unto the people that asked of him a king. 11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: he will take your sons, and appoint them unto him, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and they shall run before his chariots; 12 and he will appoint them unto him for captains of thousands, and captains of fifties; and [he will set some] to plow his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and the instruments of his chariots. 13 And he will take your daughters to be perfumers, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. 14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. 15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. 16 And he will take your men-servants, and your maid-servants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks: and ye shall be his servants. 18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king whom ye shall have chosen you; and Jehovah will not answer you in that day.

Beyond that I find this quote:


One day I walked into an operating room, to just be an observant, which we would do generally, as a medical resident. They were performing this hysterectomy, which was a caesarean section. And they lifted out a fetus that weighted approximately 2 pounds, and it was breathing and crying. And it was put in a bucket and set in the corner of the room, and everybody in the room just pretended that they didn't hear it. And the baby died. And I walked out of that room a different person...

closes most arguments for 'mainstream' christians. No other candidate has serious passion about abortion either way. Any ad targeted at christians should have that on it somewheres.

weatherbill
11-23-2007, 05:10 PM
I have this in my flyer.....PM me with your email addy to get it in full if you want it.

Christian alert! The CFR has taken a liking to Huckabee, since his neocon foreign policy fits into their one world government, globalization agenda. Ron Paul has always stood by the Christian doctrine of “just war”, not neocon pre-emptive war. Huckabee in bed with CFR agenda will only further antichrist globalization, a war economy no nation can continually afford! He is also known as taxhikemike.org from his days as governor of Arkansas. The CATO Institute gave him a D on fiscal policy, spending 3 X the rate of inflation as Gov. of Arkansas! Taxhikemike will not fight the Fed’s false balance of fiat and usury, which God calls an abomination (Prov 11:1),
So how can his Christianity apply? Is not faith without works dead? Especially when allowing the usury of the Fed to continue on?
There is no more an honest, principled, Christian man in DC than Ron Paul, with a 20 year congressional record to prove it!

therealjjj77
11-23-2007, 08:32 PM
I'm a Christian myself, so this is by no means an attack.

I think I tried too hard, or something...I'm so passionate that I looked angry. I tried to convert Christian friends, at least if anything to see how wrong this war is. Unfortunately, they associate my feelings with Ron's and it drove them away. They also thought I came across as thinking I was better than they are. UGH. So I am going to stop trying at least for now.

I am just wondering has anyone successfully talked sense into pro war Christians?

I was close to one of them, and I feel like I've lost her.

The best one on the war issue I've heard is "Put away your sword, Peter."

On the other issues of personal liberty vs. legislated morality, I wrote a very biblical and historical approach to take. You can find it here:

http://www.mikehuckabeeforum.com/index.php?topic=179.0

Hope this helps!

therealjjj77
11-23-2007, 08:34 PM
I have this in my flyer.....PM me with your email addy to get it in full if you want it.

Christian alert! The CFR has taken a liking to Huckabee, since his neocon foreign policy fits into their one world government, globalization agenda. Ron Paul has always stood by the Christian doctrine of “just war”, not neocon pre-emptive war. Huckabee in bed with CFR agenda will only further antichrist globalization, a war economy no nation can continually afford! He is also known as taxhikemike.org from his days as governor of Arkansas. The CATO Institute gave him a D on fiscal policy, spending 3 X the rate of inflation as Gov. of Arkansas! Taxhikemike will not fight the Fed’s false balance of fiat and usury, which God calls an abomination (Prov 11:1),
So how can his Christianity apply? Is not faith without works dead? Especially when allowing the usury of the Fed to continue on?
There is no more an honest, principled, Christian man in DC than Ron Paul, with a 20 year congressional record to prove it!

I like the Proverbs 11:1 reference:

"A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight."

Thank you!

USMC_IZZY
11-27-2007, 12:01 AM
Sometimes when we try to convince people of our opinions we are essentially trying to prove them wrong and ourselves right. You might try to take the approach of instead explaining what your thought process was and how you arrived at your conclusion. What will happen is that the tone of the conversation will change to them trying to change your mind and allow you to rebut their points without putting them on the defensive. It's a little bit of reverse psychology. Try baiting the conversation, you mention your support for Ron Paul and leave it at that. Most people either don't know who Ron Paul is or feel strongly about/against him and so those who do won't be able to let it go.

The good thing about the established frames of thought is that it makes their arguments very predictable, so you can lead the debate by pre-empting their arguments. You can say to a conservative for example... "I used to think pulling out of Iraq made me weak on the war on terror until I realized that what I was objecting to was the strategy itself and not the war on terror as a principle." The key is let them believe that they are on the offensive and you on the defensive.

You also have to understand that alot of people have been arguing their position for the past five years and so they are emotionally invested in their position. It takes an enormous amount of humility to do an about-face and admit you've been wrong all along. This is why people get so angry and argumentative when they debate. Put in your two-cents and then give them space, dont expect to win an argument off the bat. Watch their eyes, I have noticed in debating many people that their eyes give away that they see your point but their pride makes them stubborn. As our movement gains steam, people will feel more willing and less shame in changing position. Understand, that most people dont have the courage of Ron Paul and stand alone. We have to choose who we debate wisely. We don't have a lot of time to waste and its best to talk to people who we know are open to new ideas. Also keep in mind that religious people value steadfastness, they tend to see everything as a test to their faith.

sharedvoice
11-27-2007, 04:20 AM
I'm a Christian myself, so this is by no means an attack.

I think I tried too hard, or something...I'm so passionate that I looked angry. I tried to convert Christian friends, at least if anything to see how wrong this war is. Unfortunately, they associate my feelings with Ron's and it drove them away. They also thought I came across as thinking I was better than they are. UGH. So I am going to stop trying at least for now.

I am just wondering has anyone successfully talked sense into pro war Christians?

I was close to one of them, and I feel like I've lost her.

Here is my take on the situation,

The term Anti-war pacifist is a term frequently used to ostracize the few having the courage to speak out and question the irrationality of our foreign policy. One that has not only bankrupted our nation, but also left 5,000 Americans troops killed, countless civilians dead, and many others wounded, based on some preconceived notion that we should be the "policemen" of the world!! Horseshit!

Generally, those who support disastrous "stay the course" foriegn policy lack the basic understanding and knowledge of what war is really like, why it occurs, and how it feels to have other people angry enough to kill you.

It has been almost 7 years now since my first combat deployment, which was to Afghanistan with the 15th MEU (SOC) 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, and 4 years now since my last second visit to Iraq. Since then nothing has changed, things continue to get progressively worse because of our “unwelcomed” military involvement in the region.

For years now we have been meddling in the affairs of other nations, propping up puppet dictatorships, getting into the business of nation-building, and promoting welfare dependency around the world.

We need to stop playing welfare Santa Claus with the entire world!

There are plenty of reasons, more than ever, as to why we should be minding our own business here at home. -- economy, health care, crime, illegal immigration, poverty, even homeless war veterans out on the streets. This is an OUTRAGE!

In theory, "National Security" should address every one of these important issues, yet, we continue to fight a so-called “War on Terror” and continue to pay the consequences here at home...

A price so great, that has even undermined our Constitution and compromised individual freedom and liberty.

If you do not think what I am saying is true, I suggest you take a close look at this.


A) Corrupt the young: get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial; destroy their ruggedness.

B) Get control of all means of publicity. thereby:

Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance.
Destroy the people’s faith in their leaders by holding them up to contempt,ridicule and obliquity.
Always preach true democracy, but, seize’ power as fast and as ruthlessly as possible.
By encouraging government extravagance, destroy its credit,“produce fear of inflation with rising prices and general discontent.
Foment unnecessary strikes in vital industries, encourage civil disorders and foster lenient and soft attitudes on the part of the government towards such disorders.
By specious argument, cause the breakdown of the old moral virtues of honesty,sobriety, continence, faith in the pledged word.


C) Cause the registration of all firearms on some pretext with the view of confiscating them and leaving the population helpless.

Sound familiar??? Google "Communist Rules for Revolution"

You may want to share the following links with your friends.

Why We Fight
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3405669348838274375

Zeitgeist: Part Three (Men Behind the Curtain)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__YFnUfYXZk

s/f

goldenequity
11-28-2007, 10:13 AM
Here's a couple of things that might help in Iowa and elsewhere:

Ending the IRS: Huckabee vs. Ron Paul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS3BxggBTa8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS3BxggBTa8)

Chuck Baldwin just emailed out his latest bulletin concerning
his reasons, reluctance and warning to Christians embracing Mike Huckabee
found here:
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071127.html (http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071127.html)

I condensed and edited his email into a tri-fold for Christian supporters to email out or print and hand out.

http://ronpaulaudio.com/flyers/huckabeecolor.pdf (http://ronpaulaudio.com/flyers/huckabeecolor.pdf)

http://ronpaulaudio.com/flyers/HuckabeeTriColor.png



Vote Mike Huckabee, a former Pastor!

That's about all most Christians know.

They NEED to have a REASON to reject Mike Huckabee and move on to Ron Paul.
They are not hearing it from the pulpit. They're not hearing it from the media.
How are they going to hear it?

There is no such thing as "The Evangelical Endorsement" in the 2008 election.
The "Christian" vote is up for grabs..... and it is a HUGE Republican voting block.

I know, I know...... I don't like "negative" campaigning either...... but how about if we file this flyer under "critical thinking"??? :rolleyes:
This is pretty factual, persuasive stuff (imo).