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View Full Version : Other: So, how would you respond to this?




Nickwanz
08-11-2011, 05:44 AM
"It not only violated the Constitution and reduced individual liberty; it
also failed to achieve its stated goals of promoting racial harmony and a color-blind society. Federal bureaucrats and judges cannot read minds to see
if actions are motivated by racism. Therefore, the only way the federal government could ensure an employer was not violating the Civil Rights Act
of 1964 was to ensure that the racial composition of a business's workforce matched the racial composition of a bureaucrat or judge's defined body of potential employees. Thus, bureaucrats began forcing employers to hire by
racial quota. Racial quotas have not contributed to racial harmony or
advanced the goal of a color-blind society. Instead, these quotas encouraged racial balkanization, and fostered racial strife."
Here we have Ron Paul once again, in effect stating, the right to
discriminate based on hate, as 'liberty' which simply must be tolerated in a free society, which I would agree with IF it was a case of just some
restaurant owners saying 'hey I don't want to serve blacks.' It would be overreaching to create national law to stop a few knuckleheads if I can just walk next door and be welcomed. BUT what the CRA was about was about confronting a legal apparatus of discrimination which enforced a way of life
on blacks and whites without their consent or consideration. The
governments of the southern states(which at the time had scant participation from blacks or poor whites-ie the majority of the south)undemocratically
imposed a peasant culture based on peonage(share cropping) and racial
division, and then attempted to maintain it with violent force. What would
Ron Paul say to the lynched, the veterans who fought wars and then could not access lodging and housing? he would say 'I feel your pain, but the constitution may not?'
When you put paper before people, you have a problem.
His opposition to the tools of modern finance also scare me, as being
luddite and reactionary, and my only response comes from my favorite current British comedy, Peepshow, as the main protagonists confronts a bunch of
hippies after a night of pretending to take drugs with them:
"Mark: While we’re at it, there are systems for a reason in this world. Economic stability, interest rates, growth. It’s not all a conspiracy to
keep you in little boxes, alright? It’s only the miracle of consumer capitalism that means you’re not lying in your own shit, dying at 43 with rotten teeth. And a little pill with a chicken on it is not going to change that. Now come on... fuck off."
A little more strident than I would say myself, as I don't consider consumer capitalism a miracle, but I believe we have to fight the growing notion that society itself is a conspiracy of repression.
So while I personally think Ron Paul is nice fellow, who believes what he believes and is who he is, and in fact does share more than a few points of agreement with me, in the end, what tells me he would be a bad president is
his rigid ideology, which often produces, agreeable conclusions with very impractical solutions, which can summarized as, 'i feel your pain but the constitution prevents me from helping.' We had a president in 1860 who
believed in this philosophy and it took 4 years and a president who
understood when to see the constitution as a piece of parchment and 600000
dead americans to put the country back together. Those who would be held inactive by a piece of parchment in the face of crisis are not the men of
the material to the president of these united states.



For me, and I will preface this by saying, first, being on a college campus during 2008 election, I saw a lot of fellow students support Ron Paul, and I
can say his support does cross the entire specturm, which is also his
problem. I will also say that I do admire his principle, but I also see
them as his problem.
Many young people are attracted to Ron Paul, aspects of his message are very appealing, his principles of libertarianism do seem to support social
societal aspects that the youth of the nation do support, such as reform of
the nation's drug policy, and end to a foreign policy that could only be described as imperialism if any other nation undertook it, etc. Yes, even I
can listen to a few minutes of a Ron Paul speech and well up feelings of
'right on man!'
But what stopped me dead in my tracks from becoming a Ron Pauler is not the policies he supports but the philosophical reasons he supports and the ramifcations of that. All in all, I can say there are about a few things I agree whole heartedly with Ron Paul: military inteventionist policy of the united states, support of free trade, rejection of 9/11 conspiracy theories,
and juror nullification.
But, as I found out, and many people who joined Ron Paul at first found out,
is that the reason the man appeals and seems to advocate things which we support, is because he espouses an antiquated, discredited philosophy of government, which would end most of the other things in society which I like
and leave the United States with idelogoicallly please, practically
infeasible policies(not to say we don't have those already, but merely to
say Ron Paul offers no relief from that, which is the root cause, in my
opinion, of the problem). So in the end, though Ron Paul's philosophy draws agreement on some issues, his same philosophy means he opposes fundamentally such things most Americans simply don't want to entertain. I don't believe progress is a conspiracy, I don't believe modern society can work without
social safety nets, if it could, social safety nets would not exist, but
they do because in a modern industrial society in which access to land is
not as easy as finding some and sleeping on it, creates a need for it. You
don't have to be a Marxist but you cannot deny the issues Marx raises from industrialization of society.
Let's take a look at his stance on 'dont ask, don't tell:'
"I think the current policy is a decent policy. And the problem that we
have with dealing with this subject is we see people as groups, as they
belong to certain groups and that they derive their rights as belonging to groups. We don't get our rights because we're gays or women or minorities.
We get our rights from our Creator as individuals. So every individual
should be treated the same way. So if there is homosexual behavior in the military that is disruptive, it should be dealt with. But if there's heterosexual behavior that is disruptive, it should be dealt with. So it
isn't the issue of homosexuality. It's the concept and the understanding of individual rights. If we understood that, we would not be dealing with this
very important problem."
Sounds great, even I can say, 'right on!' BUT, it only sounds great.
Because in reality, people do judge people and deny people their rights
based on belonging to groups. This is the reason why we started protecting rights of people by groups. Blacks, women, hispanics, jews, muslims, poor whites are all discriminated against as groups, and as such we need a
society that protects the rights of groups, otherwise, as we know from the history of our own country, it makes it impossible to fight group
discrimination when it has to be proved at the individual level.
"Consider the Lawrence case decided by the Supreme Court in June. The Court determined that Texas had no right to establish its own standards for
private sexual conduct, because gay sodomy is somehow protected under the
14th amendment "right to privacy." Ridiculous as sodomy laws may be, there clearly is no right to privacy nor sodomy found anywhere in the
Constitution. There are, however, states’ rights – rights plainly affirmed in the Ninth and Tenth amendments. Under those amendments, the State of
Texas has the right to decide for itself how to regulate social matters like sex, using its own local standards."
The age old argument of states' rights, which I thought we settled over four years of bloodshed and domestic warfare. Here Ron Paul says, 'look I would never personally discriminate and I think it's stupid to discriminate, but
the States have a right to discriminate.' Not only that but he throws in a
sly 'no right to privacy in the constitution' which is considered a settled matter of constitutional law, and the butress upon which reproductive rights
for women rests. So once again, the dangers of an antiquated philosophy
show through.


..........if Ron Paul was president, a lot of things which people like,
require, and consider fundamental parts of society would be erased. Well
more than likely it would just result in four years of Ron Paul calling everything unconstitutional and Congress overriding his vetos."


Sorry its so much, I figured it better to post everything, so nothing is out of context. This is a friend of mines reasons for not being able to get behind Ron Paul.

Mainly, I just want to know if Ron is really that hardline on the constitution to the word to the point he would put "paper before people"?

Jake Ralston
08-11-2011, 06:32 AM
..........if Ron Paul was president, a lot of things which people like,
require, and consider fundamental parts of society would be erased. Well
more than likely it would just result in four years of Ron Paul calling everything unconstitutional and Congress overriding his vetos."


Ron Paul doesn't just "call everything unconstitutional". Either it is legal under the law of the land or it isn't. Many have been numbed down to the point of ignorance when it comes to our Constitution.

Will the entitlement system be gradually drawn down under Ron Paul? Yes. Your friend may feel he is losing a "fundamental part of society". I would encourage you to help him change what he believes the role of government to be. Show him evidence that without the entitlement system in place (as well as the many other unconstitutional programs/departments), the private sector and middle class would become much more prosperous. There would be less taxes, and businesses would grow and expand.


Sorry its so much, I figured it better to post everything, so nothing is out of context. This is a friend of mines reasons for not being able to get behind Ron Paul.

Please organize your posts better. I couldn't even read the majority of it because it was all lumped together and felt like one big run-on sentence.


Mainly, I just want to know if Ron is really that hardline on the constitution to the word to the point he would put "paper before people"?

I would suggest kindly that you understand the Constitution more thoroughly. The Constitution is the people's best friend. It is the absolute enemy of our current government and military industrial complex.

Ron Paul has YOUR best interests in mind. He has the "peoples" best interest in mind. No other president has held this same value in a very long time. Right now, you and your friend are being robbed blind because our government is not following that piece of paper called the Constitution. Your children and grandchildren are also being robbed. If things don't change, the "money" in your wallet will be worth nothing.

Stick around here bro. Keep reading, doing your homework and learning. There are SO many posts here full of information, videos, and articles that will really help you gain that knowledge you need to explain these types of things to your friend.

Revolution9
08-11-2011, 06:42 AM
It would be much easier to read if the text was formatted. I wanted to see if I would respond but after a paragraph I gave up. Is this what they teach in college these days:)

Rev9

RM918
08-11-2011, 06:46 AM
It would be much easier to read if the text was formatted. I wanted to see if I would respond but after a paragraph I gave up. Is this what they teach in college these days:)

Rev9

It looks like he did it in an editor, then copy/pasted it. Unfortunately it doesn't always work out so well, I can sympathize.

Nickwanz
08-11-2011, 10:12 AM
I am computer retarded (for lack of a better word). Sorry about that. It was the morning and I was ina rush. The first quote is a RP quote he used. These are actually two facebook messages, and was only really inteneded to be read by anyone other than me, so I don't think grammar was important to him, I'm the same way, we get the gist.

I am aware that Ron is incorupatable and is no friend of special interst, thats his main appeal to me. I've been following him since 08. My main concern with what my friend said is this sentiment "Those who would be held inactive by a piece of parchment in the face of crisis are not the men of
the material to the president of these united states."

I guess I'm just not a studied as you guys and am looking for a good rebuttal at this point.

Jingles
08-11-2011, 10:41 AM
I didn't read your whole post, OP (A little bit of the mish-mash of the words was a bit annoying), but you are essentially saying, "How to a respond to those are can't imagine a society without the government in these various aspects of our lives". When speaking to college students (and I am one myself) remind them that things like student loans or the things like healthcare to the real actual needy is some of the least odious of the federal spending. Do we need to reform these things, eliminate some, etc... yes over time, but remind them we cannot wave a magic wand and we understand the ramifications of eliminating such things in a reckless manner (it will take years).

More or less our goal is to cut all this insane military spending and such to use it to tie those who are dependent over and work towards balancing the budget. Then we need to begin reforming/making solvent Social Security and Medicare. We will still pay for those who are so dependent on government that their is no way (in society as it is now) that they would be able to sustain themselves otherwise. We just understand the mathematical truism of our unsustainable debt/spending (along with the various economic reasons like the government extracting funds from the private sector which is where jobs come from, government can't create jobs, governments can't produce anything, etc...) along with the fact that the inflation tax (from the Fed monetizing this debt) will of course hurt those of us that are particularly poor or don't have much money (college students, the poorest people, those on fixed incomes, etc...)

And, as always, considering we are in an academic environment encourage the person you are talking to to read. While the economic aspect is very important to grasp, working on the principle is rather key as well. Suggest them to read Ron Paul's various books (loan 'em if you got 'em. I must have bought The Revolution: A Manifesto like 4 times now because I am always giving it to others to read. They get hooked, but I just never seem to get the book back... Well $10 for a new Ron Paul supporter is fine for me. The message is more important), Of course Rothbard (For A New Liberty is great for principles, well you can't go wrong with any of Rothbard's books), Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson, Any Tom Woods book, but I would specifically suggest Rollback for a newcomer. I don't really think a newcomer should just jump into von Mises's Human Action though. If you understand the principles and basics before you go in it will be a much easier and more easily understandable read (especially for those that may not be familiar exactly with the thoughts/ideas of Hume, Kant, Mill, Weber, Smith, Locke, etc...) Oh, The Law by Frédéric Bastiat is another good one. Great concept and its short.

For those in college, remember its supposed to be an educational environment. If you are going to find anyone who will be interested to study/read more extensively into our philosophy (and with an especially open mind) this should be one of the easier places to do it.

pcosmar
08-11-2011, 10:43 AM
I guess I'm just not a studied as you guys and am looking for a good rebuttal at this point.

Ok, The best first step is to see and relate to individuals, rather than groups. Individual Rights. Individual Responsibilities.
The individual is the ultimate minority. Protect that.

That is Ron's position in a nutshell. It was the position of the founders and is written into the Bill of Rights.

The CRA was perhaps well intentioned, but has failed miserably.
What should have been done back then was to overturn the Unconstitutional Jim Crow Laws. And protect the rights of individuals.
The attempts to force associations has backfired and has harmed those that it was meant to help.
More Government is never the answer.
The only thing it should be doing is insuring equal treatment under the law and protecting individual Liberty.

musicmax
08-11-2011, 12:12 PM
The only part of the CRA that Ron/Rand have criticized is the part (Title II, I believe) that applies to private businesses. Here's a scenario I use to explain their thought process:

It's 1963 and there's no CRA. A town has two restaurants, one owned by Bigot Bob, the other by Equality Ed. Bob's restaurant has a NO BLACKS sign. Ed serves everybody. Bob's business comes from fellow racists and from those not sufficiently offended by Bob's bigotry to care.

Fast forward to 1965 with CRA. Bob has been forced to take down his sign. Bob himself of course hasn't changed. But now he too serves everybody, albeit reluctantly. So his business now comes from his old clientele PLUS whites who don't realize that he's a racist, PLUS blacks who are unknowingly and ironically contributing to Bob's profits. The increase in Bob's business comes at the expense of Ed's. Bob's income goes up, while Ed's goes down, all because of Title II.

So in the end, Bob's still a racist, Ed's still fair-minded, Bob makes more money, Ed makes less, and blacks are giving Bob their business. Explain how that makes Title II a success.

Nickwanz
08-11-2011, 01:49 PM
Great! These last few post really helped me, anyone mind if a I paraphrase? Mainly the Bigot Bob Equality ed scenerio?

musicmax
08-11-2011, 02:41 PM
Great! These last few post really helped me, anyone mind if a I paraphrase? Mainly the Bigot Bob Equality ed scenerio?

Go ahead. The two counter-arguments you'll hear are:

1. "The southern states had laws mandating segregation." Reply: "Oh, so you agree that governments should not impose racial restrictions on private businesses".

2. "The south was a monolithic bastion of racism and therefore EVERY restaurant in your hypothetical town would have refused to serve blacks." - Ask what proof they have of this, and then ask where the Board of Education in the Brown decision was located. It wasn't the south, it was Topeka, Kansas.

GunnyFreedom
08-11-2011, 02:55 PM
This probably will not help your argument, but some historical background may help you in understanding the issue at hand.

This all goes back to the SCOTUS decisions in Plessy v Ferguson and Brown v Board of Education.

Plessy v Ferguson was an abhorrent ruling and clearly should have been overturned. It allowed the State governments to enforce segregation in the private sector whether shopowners agreed with it or not. Contrary to popular myth, most of the private sector did NOT agree with government enforced segregation, but were forced by state laws (backed by Plessy v Ferguson) to impose segregation against their will.

Brown v Board sought to overturn Plessy v Ferguson, as it rightly ought to have been, but they did it wrong. Brown v Board cited some ambiguous and unconstitutional concept of "group rights" stating the separate but equal is inherently unequal therefore segregation was a violation of the 14th Amendment. They cited the wrong principle.

Plessy v Ferguson was horrific and needed overturned. Brown v Board SHOULD have cited Article 4 Section 4 of the US Constitution guaranteeing to every state "a republican form of government" which has as it's basis individual sovereignty under law. By citing the CORRECT Constitutional justification in overturning Plessy v Ferguson, Brown v Board would have saved us metric pluck-tons of collectivist problems that have continued up to this very day.

Nickwanz
08-12-2011, 07:53 AM
Its come down to this. the prevailing belief is "Ron is all gung ho on the federal government can't tell you what to do. But at a state level, government can do WHATEVER it sees fit?!!"

The other argument I hear the most is " How is Ron going to change anything? Congress will still be largly "bought" and will and stall any good intentions Ron might have. Ron will just veto EVERYTHING, after all he is "Dr No". And in the end congress will just override his vetos"

GunnyFreedom
08-12-2011, 05:38 PM
Its come down to this. the prevailing belief is "Ron is all gung ho on the federal government can't tell you what to do. But at a state level, government can do WHATEVER it sees fit?!!"

The other argument I hear the most is " How is Ron going to change anything? Congress will still be largly "bought" and will and stall any good intentions Ron might have. Ron will just veto EVERYTHING, after all he is "Dr No". And in the end congress will just override his vetos"

The States have Constitutions too, and it's up to the States, not the FedGov to enforce them. There is, eventually, recourse for FedGov intervention if the State in question is in flagrant constant violation: Article 4 Section 4 of the US Constitution.

Also, much of the unconstitutional powers have been usurped through Executive Order, which can be reversed immediately and without Congress. As the branch of government that carries out policies enacted by Congress, Ron Paul can refuse to carry out policies that are blatantly unconstitutional, such as No Child Left Behind, and he can execute other policies in the manner most consistent with the Constitution, such as the regulation of interstate trade.

Also, even though they are bought and paid for, most Congress critters will recognize for the first time, under a Paul Presidency, that the popular movement to restore the Constitution is gaining steam, and in order to keep their jobs they will have to move in his direction, therefore beginning the long journey back to the Constitution.

Also, it is the President's responsibility to submit a budget to Congress. Ron Paul's budget will be balanced. That will restore our AAA credit rating all by itself.

Electing a President who will just rubberstamp the special interests is not the answer. Let's say everything your friend says about lack of cooperation from Congress is true -- Ron Paul is STILL better for the economy andour money and market stability and jobs than any rubber stamp President running.