Help with Christian.

[Carehn]

Im trying to talk to my aunt about Ron Paul via email and the only think she ever comes back with is that its all part of Gods plan.


How the hell do you light i fire up under someone when they think Nothing maters because we are just fallowing some kind of holy script?

What do I tell her in order to get her eyes to deglaze?

Any Christians out there what to tell me how to deal with you people. Sometime you can be so frustrating. Does reason play a role at all in your thinking?

Ok sorry but she is getting my goat.

[ClayTrainor]

Im trying to talk to my aunt about Ron Paul via email and the only think she ever comes back with is that its all part of Gods plan.


How the hell do you light i fire up under someone when they think Nothing maters because we are just fallowing some kind of holy script?

What do I tell her in order to get her eyes to deglaze?

Any Christians out there what to tell me how to deal with you people. Sometime you can be so frustrating. Does reason pay a role at all in your thinking?

Ok sorry but she is getting my goat.

I'm no Christian, but here's my advice anyways...

There's no argument stronger than the argument from morality, regardless of the faith or lack thereof of your opponent. The argument from morality makes everything else irrelevant, and it's very simple to understand.

Watching the following demonstration helped make this very clear to me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKOTqRb5nvg

[AGRP]

The Serenity Prayer:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

Point to Ron Paul's surging poll numbers to prove that people can change..

[Sola_Fide]

Im trying to talk to my aunt about Ron Paul via email and the only think she ever comes back with is that its all part of Gods plan.


How the hell do you light i fire up under someone when they think Nothing maters because we are just fallowing some kind of holy script?

What do I tell her in order to get her eyes to deglaze?

Any Christians out there what to tell me how to deal with you people. Sometime you can be so frustrating. Does reason play a role at all in your thinking?

Ok sorry but she is getting my goat.


She's right. In the grand picture, politics means nothing.

[ghengis86]

Don't let it get you down. Some people will never get it.

[YumYum]

Have her join rpf and come visit the religious subforum.

[Sola_Fide]

Have her join rpf and come visit the religious subforum.

She'd probably get depressed lol.

[YumYum]

She'd probably get depressed lol.

If she does, it's all part of God's Plan.:p

[Sola_Fide]

If she does, it's all part of God's Plan.:p

Yes.

[ClayTrainor]

Yes.

This post is brought to you, in part by... Gods Plan.

[pcosmar]

It is true that God has a plan. Some revealed, some not so clearly so.

A point that I have used with some,,,
Armageddon. There are actually two battles of Armageddon (the valley of Megiddo) and the participants are named.
The US has no part of this. Not a player or participant.
This tells me that at some point the US has to cease to be a world power.
That can happen a couple of ways, and still fit into "Gods Plan".

Ron Paul is the first and only Presidential Candidate that would accomplish this voluntarily.
It could happen other ways, but they would not be good.
Non-Intervention is the only way to save this country. And removing ourselves from the UN (one world government) as well.

If she knows her Bible this will ring true.

[Sola_Fide]

This post is brought to you, in part by... Gods Plan.



Romans 8:28-30 NASB

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.":)

[Carehn]

So if its all just part of Gods plan then what the hell do i even try for???? This is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Should i just stop going to work and eating and such and if i die then it was all part of gods plan and no one could have changed that.

The very Idea of God having a plan that cannot be changed is outlandish. Guess ill just give up and see if Gods plan fits me in somewhere without my effort needed.

Fing stupid if you ask me. I cant argue or reason with people who act and talk like they have been eating mushrooms.

[ClayTrainor]

So if its all just part of Gods plan then what the hell do i even try for???? This is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Should i just stop going to work and eating and such and if i die then it was all part of gods plan and no one could have changed that.

The very Idea of God having a plan that cannot be changed is outlandish. Guess ill just give up and see if Gods plan fits me in somewhere without my effort needed.


You cannot reason with blind faith. To me, the main thing that we should focus on is the argument from morality. If it comes down to them initiating violence on me because of their faith in something, or any other reason... than they might not be worth spending time with.

If they hesitate when it comes to violence, they might be worth your time.... If they outright reject it, they're only a few arguments away from full blown voluntaryism. :)



Fing stupid if you ask me. I cant argue or reason with people who act and talk like they have been eating mushrooms.

Actually, eating mushrooms can have a significant positive effect on your curiosity and intelligence. Few things have the potential to humble you more, than a psychedelic trip. :o

[Sola_Fide]

So if its all just part of Gods plan then what the hell do i even try for???? This is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Should i just stop going to work and eating and such and if i die then it was all part of gods plan and no one could have changed that.

The very Idea of God having a plan that cannot be changed is outlandish. Guess ill just give up and see if Gods plan fits me in somewhere without my effort needed.

Fing stupid if you ask me. I cant argue or reason with people who act and talk like they have been eating mushrooms.

Arguing with her about what God's eternal plan is probably isn't smart, but you could tell her the very simple truth that she doesn't know what God's plan is either. And because she doesnt know what God's plan for this election or America is, she should vote for the person who would give her the most liberty to live out her faith without government tyranny.

[pcosmar]

The very Idea of God having a plan that cannot be changed is outlandish. Guess ill just give up and see if Gods plan fits me in somewhere without my effort needed.

.

Ah, but he can and has changed parts of his plan (though not the overall plan) when asked, or when conditions are met.


"Go up and down the streets of Jerusalem, look around and consider, search through her squares. If you can find but one person who deals honestly and seeks the truth, I will forgive this city.

[ClayTrainor]

Ah, but he can and has changed parts of his plan (though not the overall plan) when asked, or when conditions are met.

If God must change his plan, is it fair to imply that God is a flawed being?

[pcosmar]

If God must change his plan, is it fair to imply that God is a flawed being?

The overall plan does not change, but parts of it may.
There is the "Big Picture",
and there are the smaller details that don't change the whole.

The US has to cease to be a world power. We are not involved in some plans later.

How this happens is variable,, and therefor changeable.
I would like to see it happen without the US being destroyed.

[bunklocoempire]

Im trying to talk to my aunt about Ron Paul via email and the only think she ever comes back with is that its all part of Gods plan.


How the hell do you light i fire up under someone when they think Nothing maters because we are just fallowing some kind of holy script?

What do I tell her in order to get her eyes to deglaze?

Any Christians out there what to tell me how to deal with you people. Sometime you can be so frustrating. Does reason play a role at all in your thinking?

Ok sorry but she is getting my goat.

Her condition is by no means confined to Christians.

The 'we're following a script' thing is pretty darn popular if one cares to look for it -just the endings and methods vary.

The 'man is an animal' script certainly comes to my mind. Scoff if one must, there's a lot of non-believers living their own nothing-matters script.......but that's different somehow..:rolleyes: Food for thought, to each their own.;)

You can ask her about where Revelations mentions lukewarm Christians being "spit out", but coming from what I assume is a non-believer, it's probably not going to be effective. Why would she listen to you?

I mean she's dealing with eternity and your talking about the next 75 years or so.

Just sayin'..

I'd turn her onto Baldwins stuff.

The RPF's religion sub forums gauntlet is probably every stereotypical thing she's heard about 'libertarians' but in concentrated form -probably not the best place to convert someone to Paul.


Bunkloco

[ClayTrainor]

The overall plan does not change, but parts of it may.
There is the "Big Picture",
and there are the smaller details that don't change the whole.

The US has to cease to be a world power. We are not involved in some plans later.

How this happens is variable,, and therefor changeable.
I would like to see it happen without the US being destroyed.

Okay, so... trying to understand your logic. Is this a fair assessment?


Step 1. God has a plan

Step 2. God allows for and/or makes changes in his plan

Conclusion: God and/or his plan are at least somewhat flawed, otherwise he wouldn't make, or allow for changes in the plan.

Logical, or not?

[YumYum]

If God must change his plan, is it fair to imply that God is a flawed being?

No, He changed His Plan because it was in His Plan to change His Plan.

[ClayTrainor]

No, He changed His Plan because it was in His Plan to change His Plan.

Well, holy shit! (I mean that quite literally) :D:p

[flightlesskiwi]

So if its all just part of Gods plan then what the hell do i even try for???? This is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Should i just stop going to work and eating and such and if i die then it was all part of gods plan and no one could have changed that.

The very Idea of God having a plan that cannot be changed is outlandish. Guess ill just give up and see if Gods plan fits me in somewhere without my effort needed.

Fing stupid if you ask me. I cant argue or reason with people who act and talk like they have been eating mushrooms.

just know this situation is NOT unique.

here's how i think: God is interested and in control of everything (even politics). it's part of God's plan, but I am also part of His plan. i have a role in that plan, and i have no idea exactly how that role will play out until it's already done. God is sovereign, absolutely. along the same lines, God, in His sovereignty gave me eyes so i could see, ears so i could hear, a brain so I could think, a heart so i could feel, legs and feet so i can travel and a mouth so i can speak.

and i will not be found sleeping while i am here. "But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation." 1 Thessalonians 5:4-8

it's the people who sit on their duffs that fail at being missional and expect all things to just "happen" and call that faith that i have a beef with. one of my favorite pastors says: i work like an Arminian, i sleep like a Calvinist. in other words, i can rest because i know my salvation is secure, but i want to be useful in spreading the gospel, so i work as if my salvation depends on my work (even though i know it doesn't).

[Sola_Fide]

No, He changed His Plan because it was in His Plan to change His Plan.

This could go ad infinitum.

The point is this:
"The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation". Psalm 33:10-11

[robert68]

No, He changed His Plan because it was in His Plan to change His Plan.

Contradiction.

[ClayTrainor]

This could go ad infinitum.

The point is this:

For what particular reason did God include giving small children cancer, in his plan? Or is this one of the parts that he'll change once he realizes the mistake?

[pcosmar]

Okay, so... trying to understand your logic. Is this a fair assessment?


Step 1. God has a plan

Step 2. God allows for and/or makes changes in his plan

Conclusion: The plan is at least somewhat flawed, otherwise he wouldn't make, or allow for changes in the plan.

Logical, or not?

There is free will and there is also repentance. If we are made in Gods Image it is not hard to believe that he possesses these attributes as well.

He also has compassion and forgiveness. The overall plan does not change. Though parts of it can be, due to choices made.
Those do not change the end goal.
but this is getting away from the OP's question.

[Sola_Fide]

"Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord, it will stand." Proverbs 19:21


"There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the Lord" Proverbs 21:30.

He is sovereign.

[pcosmar]

For what particular reason did God include giving small children cancer, in his plan? Or is this one of the parts that he'll change once he realizes the mistake?

What makes you think that was part of his plan.
That was the result of sin (choice outside his plan). Free will.
A Consequence of bad choice.

[ClayTrainor]

There is free will and there is also repentance. If we are made in Gods Image it is not hard to believe that he possesses these attributes as well.


Okay, so does this mean it is fair to say that God is flawed? It is an imperfect being?

[ClayTrainor]

What makes you think that was part of his plan.

Well, didn't he create everything? If it wasn't part of his plan, isn't it fair to say that it's a mistake?



That was the result of sin (choice outside his plan). Free will.
A Consequence of bad choice.

What sinful choices did all the children with cancer make? I am confused...

[Sola_Fide]

For what particular reason did God include giving small children cancer, in his plan? Or is this one of the parts that he'll change once he realizes the mistake?

What is more horrible than small children having diseases is the atheistic idea that there is NO ultimate justice in this universe. Could you imagine if there were no ultimate justice in this universe? Then there would be NO REASON and NO ULTIMATE good ending for a child getting a disease.

That is the bleakest, most horrible, and cruelest idea that has ever been.

[ClayTrainor]

What is more horrible than small children having diseases is the atheistic idea that there is NO ultimate justice in this universe. Could you imagine if there were no ultimate justice in this universe? Then there would be NO REASON and NO ULTIMATE good ending for a child getting a disease.

That is the bleakest, most horrible, and cruel idea that has ever been.

What is Gods reason for giving some small children cancer, instead of giving cancer to say... all the mass murderers, counterfeiters and rapists instead?

[Sola_Fide]

What is Gods reason for giving small children cancer, instead of giving cancer to say... mass murderers, counterfeiters and rapists?

:) I knew you wouldn't be able to deal with what I said.

[ClayTrainor]

:) I knew you wouldn't be able to deal with what I said.

Can't reason with faith. :)

[pcosmar]

I am confused...

Yes you are.
But that is a first step.

It was not God that made disease or put thorns on roses.
That was Satan, who was cast to earth. This is his playground.(for now)

[Sola_Fide]

Can't reason with faith. :)

Whatever. You didn't deal with what I said...at all. Talk about not being able to reason.:rolleyes:

[ClayTrainor]

It was not God that made disease or put thorns on roses.
That was Satan, who was cast to earth. This is his playground.(for now)

Did God create satan, or is satan like Gods alter ego?

[ClayTrainor]

Whatever. You didn't deal with what I said...at all. Talk about not being able to reason.:rolleyes:

What would an intelligent response to that post look like, in your opinion?

You went on a rant about how awful atheism is, and it was the first time in the entire thread that atheism has been brought up. It was in no way a reasonable answer to the question of mine, which you quoted. It was just a rant.

It's okay though... like Jesus, I forgive. :)

[pcosmar]

Did God create satan, or is satan like Gods alter ego?

He was created. and was the greatest of Angels at one time. But rebelled.


7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

The tattoo on my back is inspired by,,
Isiah 27:1

In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword, his fierce, great and powerful sword, Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea.

[Sola_Fide]

What would an intelligent response to that post look like, in your opinion?

You went on a rant about how awful atheism is, and it was the first time in the entire thread that atheism has been brought up. It was in no way a reasonable answer to the question of mine, which you quoted. It was just a rant.

It's okay though... like Jesus, I forgive. :)


So...are you going to deal with what I said? This is what I said:



Originally Posted by AquaBuddha2010

What is more horrible than small children having diseases is the atheistic idea that there is NO ultimate justice in this universe. Could you imagine if there were no ultimate justice in this universe? Then there would be NO REASON and NO ULTIMATE good ending for a child getting a disease.

That is the bleakest, most horrible, and cruelest idea that has ever been.

[MJU1983]

Have you sent her Ron Paul's statement of faith?

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/statement-of-faith/

[ClayTrainor]

So...are you going to deal with what I said? This is what I said:

...



What would an intelligent response to that post look like, in your opinion?

You went on a rant about how awful atheism is, and it was the first time in the entire thread that atheism has been brought up. It was in no way a reasonable answer to the question of mine, which you quoted. It was just a rant.

It's okay though... like Jesus, I forgive. :)

[ClayTrainor]

He was created. and was the greatest of Angels at one time. But rebelled.

So, God created Satan, who ended up becoming pure evil. Did God make some kind of mistake, or is this part of his plan?




The tattoo on my back is inspired by,,
Isiah 27:1

Cool man, Got any pics? Wouldn't mind seein that. I'm thinking about getting my signature tatoo'd on one of my pectorals.

[wannaberocker]

Well i dont know what her theological argument is so i cant really debunk it. If her idea is that God has a plan and we can just sit back and chill. Then that is simply lazy, a farmer can pray to God for a good Crop, but he still has to plow the fields. I know as a child when i didnt study for a test id pray that i could pass the test lol. The point is that things dont just magically happen, God requires his people to sometimes take a stand and make things happen. When the samaritan was laying on the side of the road. What should people have done? just walked by saying "its all part of God's plan"? of course not the Christian thing to do was to help the injured Samaritan.

Anyways i guess she should know that God gave man free will and that means that man has a responsability to make choices in life.

[Carehn]

Have you sent her Ron Paul's statement of faith?

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/statement-of-faith/

I just did. Thank you.

[Johncjackson]

She's right. In the grand picture, politics means nothing.

Well, I agree with that, and I'm not religious. But what does that have to do with believing that all the bullshit and supporting scumbags is "God's plan"?

[pcosmar]

So, God created Satan, who ended up becoming pure evil. Did God make some kind of mistake, or is this part of his plan?




Cool man, Got any pics? Wouldn't mind seein that. I'm thinking about getting my signature tatoo'd on one of my pectorals.

No pics of my back,, hard to hold a camera like that.

That is a good question, and one I will likely ask face to face when I see him.
I think it has to do with free will.
how can you choose if there is only one choice? But that is a guess on my part.

[Sola_Fide]

...

An intelligent response would look like an answer for your utterly bleak worldview which contends that there is no ultimate good ending for a child getting a disease.

Again, here was my post:


Originally Posted by AquaBuddha2010

What is more horrible than small children having diseases is the atheistic idea that there is NO ultimate justice in this universe. Could you imagine if there were no ultimate justice in this universe? Then there would be NO REASON and NO ULTIMATE good ending for a child getting a disease.

That is the bleakest, most horrible, and cruelest idea that has ever been.

And now I will wait for your answer as to why you believe such a horrible and cruel worldview. You questioned my worldview, and I answered. I said there is an ultimate good ending for the present suffering. Now I want YOUR answer as to why you are proposing an utterly cruel worldview that says there is no ultimate good for a child getting a disease.

I'll wait for your answer.

[robert68]

..

[Sola_Fide]

Indeed, predeterminism is nonsense. And he didn't answer you questions.

If predeterminism is nonsense, why do you, as an atheist, believe it?

[robert68]

If predeterminism is nonsense, why do you, as an atheist, believe it?

I've noticed that those who don't agree with you are always atheists.

[Sola_Fide]

Clay, don't let my sharpness seem like I am intentionally being a jerk. I just always see atheists question the doctrine of providence but they usually haven't thought through their own worldview enough to answer the problems that occur when you deny providence.

Sorry if I seemed overly snarky there:)

[TER]

So, God created Satan, who ended up becoming pure evil. Did God make some kind of mistake, or is this part of his plan?

Clay, the Christian response would be that it is a mystery as to why evil exists and it has not been fully revealed as of yet. According to Genesis, of all the fruits and fruits bearing trees in the Kingdom of Eden, everything was acceptable except for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Why was this? Why did God forbid them to eat from this tree? For He says, 'if you eat from it, you will die'. We all know, of course, how the rest of the story goes. But the question remains, why did God forbid Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of this tree?

Some have speculated that it was because Adam and Eve were not ready to eat from it, that is, they were not spiritually mature enough to be able to handle such profound mysteries. Perhaps at some later time, as they grew more and more in His likeness, they would have been able to handle such truths and then 'eat of the tree' and not die. But they ate of it when they were not ready to handle the truth, and in doing so, they became fearful, shameful, worried and ill at ease.

The mysteries regarding satan, the fall of the angels, and the cause and reason for evil is a topic full of mystery and very little has been revealed. It is the testimony of Christ and the Church that at the end, it will be revealed, either to the exaltation or to the condemnation to every person who ever lived.

[ClayTrainor]

Here's how our conversation has gone, in chronological order.






For what particular reason did God include giving small children cancer, in his plan? Or is this one of the parts that he'll change once he realizes the mistake?


What is more horrible than small children having diseases is the atheistic idea that there is NO ultimate justice in this universe. Could you imagine if there were no ultimate justice in this universe? Then there would be NO REASON and NO ULTIMATE good ending for a child getting a disease.

That is the bleakest, most horrible, and cruelest idea that has ever been.

The above ↑↑↑ is in no way an answer to my question, it is merely an assertion about a supposed "atheistic idea" which is the first time anyone brought up atheism in this thread.

I dicided to rephrase the original question, which you quoted, to see if you would actually answer it....


What is Gods reason for giving some small children cancer, instead of giving cancer to say... all the mass murderers, counterfeiters and rapists instead?

And again, you don't answer it, but assert I am merely somehow intimidated by your argument.


:) I knew you wouldn't be able to deal with what I said.

So, I ask the following question a second time, after it being ignored the first time...


What would an intelligent response to that post look like, in your opinion?

You went on a rant about how awful atheism is, and it was the first time in the entire thread that atheism has been brought up. It was in no way a reasonable answer to the question of mine, which you quoted. It was just a rant.

It's okay though... like Jesus, I forgive. :)

Which brings me to your current response...







An intelligent response would look like an answer for your utterly bleak worldview which contends that there is no ultimate good ending for a child getting a disease.

You attack the atheistic position against (even though no one has brought it up in this thread, except you)....




here was my post:


You repeat the same post I included in the above chronological order. The one that was merely a dodge of the question in which YOU quoted.




And now I will wait for your answer as to why you believe such a horrible and cruel worldview.


You questioned my worldview, and I answered.

No, you did not,. I still await the answer.


I said there is an ultimate good ending for the present suffering.


Does this mean that God chose to give children cancer for a reason? This is the fundamental question being asked.


Now I want YOUR answer as to why you are proposing an utterly cruel worldview that says there is no ultimate good for a child getting a disease.

I'll wait for your answer.

I haven't asserted any worldview in this thread. You are the only one talking about atheism, in an elaborate attempt to avoid my question... It's okay though... like jesus, I forgive.. :)

[Sola_Fide]

I've noticed that those who don't agree with you are always atheists.

Why did you say that "predeterminism is nonsense" when you, as an atheist, believe in environemental, biological, behavioral, or genetic determinism?

[ClayTrainor]

Clay, don't let my sharpness seem like I am intentionally being a jerk.

You asserting that I promote a "cruel" and "utterly bleak" worldview, while I have asserted nothing about my own positions in this thread. I do find it a tad hostile and somewhat irrelevant to the conversation taking place.

I do think we might be derailing this thread a bit.. what about u?


I just always see atheists question the doctrine of providence but they usually haven't thought through their own worldview enough to answer the problems that occur when you deny providence.

Sorry if I seemed overly snarky there:)

You are forgiven. :)

[Carehn]

I will end this right now because i got what i think i needed.

Riddle me this thread posters...

Could Jesus (being God) make a burrito so HOT even he himself could not eat it?

Answer this and you will know the meaning of life.

[Rael]

I would stop wasting your time and try to reach out to someone who is a better prospect. Religious people often don't think rationally (which explains why they are religious) so using logic is probably a waste of time.

[LibertyEagle]

Im trying to talk to my aunt about Ron Paul via email and the only think she ever comes back with is that its all part of Gods plan.


How the hell do you light i fire up under someone when they think Nothing maters because we are just fallowing some kind of holy script?

What do I tell her in order to get her eyes to deglaze?

Any Christians out there what to tell me how to deal with you people. Sometime you can be so frustrating. Does reason play a role at all in your thinking?

Ok sorry but she is getting my goat.

Remind her that God wanted us to fight His enemies.

Show her this: http://enidnews.com/church/x1281100135/God-does-not-want-us-to-be-blindsided-by-the-enemy/print

[Sola_Fide]

Here's how our conversation has gone, in chronological order.








You attack the atheistic position against (even though no one has brought it up in this thread, except you)....






You repeat the same post I included in the above chronological order. The one that was merely a dodge of the question in which YOU quoted.






No, you did not,. I still await the answer.




Does this mean that God chose to give children cancer for a reason? This is the fundamental question being asked.



I haven't asserted any worldview in this thread. You are the only one talking about atheism, in an elaborate attempt to avoid my question... It's okay though... like jesus, I forgive.. :)



I guess this means I get no answer. That's sad, because its something that I really have been wondering about atheism. How does it make you feel to assent to such a bleak and cruel worldview which says there is no ultimate reason for the suffering we go through?

[ClayTrainor]

I guess this means I get no answer. That's sad, because its something that I really have been wondering about atheism.

What question, specifically is it you want me to answer?



How does it make you feel to assent to such a bleak and cruel worldview which says there is no ultimate reason for the suffering we go through?

Is this it? Is this the one question I'm apparently avoiding?

[LibertyEagle]

I would stop wasting your time and try to reach out to someone who is a better prospect. Religious people often don't think rationally (which explains why they are religious) so using logic is probably a waste of time.

Christians make up a very large part of the Republican party. If you cannot figure out how to talk to them, then get ready to lose.

[pcosmar]

I would stop wasting your time and try to reach out to someone who is a better prospect. Religious people often don't think rationally (which explains why they are religious) so using logic is probably a waste of time.

And that applies to Ron Paul how? Or one of his huge supporters who he endorsed last time? (Chuck Baldwin)

???

[Carehn]

Many Christians are wonderful people who may not vote for or even know of Ron Paul but if thought about it would fall well within the limits of the libertarian thinking. I just need to crack this one nut my aunt and she is crackable.

Often i get upset with the christian right and call them names and such because it relieves stress and I know they wont fight back but turn the other cheek. :) I know its mean but the reality is we do need them and they will be much easier to deal with them most groups of people so to all my fellow cynics out their it may be time to start respecting them and trying hard to suck up to them even if we cant reason with them.

I expect this post to be thrown back in my face within the next couple of days.

[Sola_Fide]

What question, specifically is it you want me to answer?




Is this it? Is this the one question I'm apparently avoiding?

Here is what I wanted an explanation for:


Originally Posted by AquaBuddha2010

What is more horrible than small children having diseases is the atheistic idea that there is NO ultimate justice in this universe. Could you imagine if there were no ultimate justice in this universe? Then there would be NO REASON and NO ULTIMATE good ending for a child getting a disease.

That is the bleakest, most horrible, and cruelest idea that has ever been.


I'm questioning atheism. I'm questioning a universe in which there is no reason and no ultimate good to come out of suffering.


What is your answer to my questioning?

[Carehn]

Here is what I wanted an explanation for:




I'm questioning atheism. I'm questioning a universe in which there is no reason and no ultimate good to come out of suffering.


What is your answer to my questioning?

http://amberandchaos.com/?page_id=106

[ClayTrainor]

I'm questioning atheism. I'm questioning a universe in which there is no reason and no ultimate good to come out of suffering.

Okay, well first I need to point out that you're the only one who has brought up atheism in this thread, it is irrelevant to any of the conversations about god and his plan taking place beforehand.

Secondly, you are still avoiding my question, and the quote in which you posted, is actually a dodge of one of my questions.

That question, if you feel like answering it, is...


What is Gods reason for giving some small children cancer, instead of giving cancer to say... all the mass murderers, counterfeiters and rapists instead?





What is your answer to my questioning?

Okay, well first I need to understand the question... Here's the quote you provided...


What is more horrible than small children having diseases is the atheistic idea that there is NO ultimate justice in this universe. Could you imagine if there were no ultimate justice in this universe? Then there would be NO REASON and NO ULTIMATE good ending for a child getting a disease.

That is the bleakest, most horrible, and cruelest idea that has ever been.

The only question i see, is the part that is in bold. Is this the specific question, in which you think I'm avoiding and need to answer?

Do me a favor, and give me the most clear and concise form question you possibly can. What is it specifically, that you are trying to ask me? Thanks. :)

[pcosmar]

I expect this post to be thrown back in my face within the next couple of days.

Not by me.
Most Christians have been misled by some false religious leaders. There are some folks that are very adept at twisting scripture.
The "religious right" has been targeted by such, and sadly they have been effective.

The best way to counter the Dumb Stuff is to know the book.

I am course and blunt (rougher roads) but I do know the book, and believe it. I have had no trouble talking to Christians about Dr. Paul and a good many are almost instant supporters.

[Sola_Fide]

Do me a favor, and give me the most clear and concise form question you possibly can. What is it specifically, that you are trying to ask me? Thanks. :)

Why do you believe in worldview so cruel that there is no reason and no ultimate good to come out of the suffering of little children?

[ClayTrainor]

Why do you believe in worldview so cruel that there is no reason and no ultimate good to come out of the suffering of little children?

Okay, so firstly, I just want to point out that you once again chose not to answer my question which was the first post which you quoted which initiated the whole conversation.

Secondly, the premise of your questioning implies that I must accept my supposed "worldview" as "so cruel". This is a highly insulting premise, which doesn't indicate any curiosity on your part, but rather, that you've already made up your mind and really aren't asking me anything.

Because of this, i'm still unclear of what it is you're trying to ask. I understand your assertions, but not your question.

Without the attack on my supposed "worldview", is it fair to say that you are asking me what is.... "What the reason for there is child suffering, if I don't believe in a God? "

[Sola_Fide]

Okay, so firstly, I just want to point out that you once again chose not to answer my question which was the first post which you quoted which initiated the whole conversation.

Secondly, the premise of your questioning implies that I must accept my supposed "worldview" as "so cruel". This is a highly insulting premise, which doesn't indicate any curiosity on your part, but rather, that you've already made up your mind and really aren't asking me anything.

Because of this, i'm still unclear of what it is you're trying to ask. I understand your assertions, but not your question.

Without the attack on my "worldview", is it fair to say that you are asking me what is.... "What the reason for there is child suffering, if I don't believe in a God? "


Is your atheistic worldview cruel for contending that there is no reason and no ultimate good to come out of the suffering of little children? Or do you think it is not cruel to think that there is no reason and no ultimate good to come out of the suffering of little children?

You know my position...that there is ultimately a good ending and a good purpose to come out of our present suffering.

I'm asking about your conception of things. Is it or is it not very cruel to say that there is no ultimate reason or no ultimate good to come out of the suffering of little children like the example you gave?

[LibertyEagle]

Many Christians are wonderful people who may not vote for or even know of Ron Paul but if thought about it would fall well within the limits of the libertarian thinking. I just need to crack this one nut my aunt and she is crackable.

Often i get upset with the christian right and call them names and such because it relieves stress and I know they wont fight back but turn the other cheek. :) I know its mean but the reality is we do need them and they will be much easier to deal with them most groups of people so to all my fellow cynics out their it may be time to start respecting them and trying hard to suck up to them even if we cant reason with them.

I expect this post to be thrown back in my face within the next couple of days.

You can also send her Ron Paul's speech at the Faith and whatever conference a few weeks back. A YouTube was posted on here.

[Carehn]

Not a one of you answered my question about the burrito!!!

[ClayTrainor]

Is your atheistic worldview cruel for contending that there is no reason and no ultimate good to come out of the suffering of little
children?

No, i think it is rational to believe that the severe suffering of children is always a very bad thing, which makes it all that more imperative to do what we can to put an end to it or reduce it as much as we can.


Or do you think it is not cruel to think that there is no reason and no ultimate good to come out of the suffering of little children?

The suffering of little children is never good, in my opinion. There is no upside to it, that's why we must work against it.




What is Gods reason for giving some small children cancer, instead of giving cancer to say... all the mass murderers, counterfeiters and rapists instead?

Would appreciate an answer to that, if ya got the time. :)

[pcosmar]

Not a one of you answered my question about the burrito!!!

It was a logical contradiction.

Creation is logical.
(with the possible exception of the Platypus,, but that is another question I have, when I see him)

[ClayTrainor]

Just noticed your edit...



I'm asking about your conception of things. Is it or is it not very cruel to say that there is no ultimate reason or no ultimate good to come out of the suffering of little children like the example you gave?

I don't know what you mean by "ultimate reason".... if a child has cancer, the reason they are suffering is because they have cancer. Yes, this is a bad thing, which is why we should attempt to correct it.

I don't believe there is a supernatural entity who planned for them to have cancer. Do you?

[Sola_Fide]

No, i think it is rational to believe that the severe suffering of children is always a very bad thing, which makes it all that more imperative to do what we can to put an end to it or reduce it as much as we can.



The suffering of little children is never good, in my opinion. There is no upside to it, that's why we must work against it.





Would appreciate an answer to that, if ya got the time. :)



No. That is not an answer to my question at all.

I'm not asking you what your personal feeling is. I am asking you to defend the idea that there is no ultimate good to come out of the suffering of little children. That is YOUR worldview. YOU believe that there is no ultimate good to come out of suffering.

All I'm asking is that you defend this idea. Tell me more about it.

Tell me what you would tell a little child suffering from a horrible disease. Sorry about your luck, kid? Your suffering means nothing? Is that what you would say?

[BlackTerrel]

Im trying to talk to my aunt about Ron Paul via email and the only think she ever comes back with is that its all part of Gods plan.


How the hell do you light i fire up under someone when they think Nothing maters because we are just fallowing some kind of holy script?

What do I tell her in order to get her eyes to deglaze?

Any Christians out there what to tell me how to deal with you people. Sometime you can be so frustrating. Does reason play a role at all in your thinking?

Ok sorry but she is getting my goat.

Most Christians I know still work hard, wear their seatbelt, work out, eat healthy etc...

God helps those who help themselves.

[ClayTrainor]

I'm not asking you what your personal feeling is. I am asking you to defend the idea that there is no ultimate good to come out of the suffering of little children. That is YOUR worldview. YOU believe that there is no ultimate good to come out of suffering.

Right, I believe that child suffering is always a bad thing.

Can you explain to me why I should believe there is something good about child suffering?



Tell me what you would tell a little child suffering from a horrible disease. Sorry about your luck, kid? Your suffering means nothing? Is that what you would say?

I would engage the kid in honest conversation. I would do what I can to play games with him, and help him enjoy the time he has left. I would never look at his suffering as a good thing.

I would not lie and give him answers I do not have.

[Sola_Fide]

Right, I believe that child suffering is always a bad thing.

Can you explain to me why I should believe there is something good about child suffering?



I would engage the kid in honest conversation. I would do what I can to play games with him, and help him enjoy the time he has left. I would never look at his suffering as a good thing.

I would not lie and give him answers I do not have.


But you do have the answer. You already have said it. You said his present suffering means nothing and that there is no ultimate good that will come from his present suffering. He's screwed, according to you.


I don't believe that. I believe the Scriptures which say that all things work together for the good of those who love God, even our suffering, Clay.

But I just want you to realize what your answer really is to that child, Clay....and to yourself.

[ClayTrainor]

But you do have the answer. You already have said it. You said his present suffering means nothing and that there is no ultimate good that will come from his present suffering. He's screwed, according to you.

People can recover from suffering, it depends on what the cause is. It is highly moral and rational to help other people end their suffering, in my opinion.



I don't believe that. I believe the Scriptures which say that all things work together for the good of those who love God, even our suffering, Clay.

But I just want you to realize what your answer really is to that child, Clay....and to yourself.

Like I say, I don't necessarily have all the answers, but I won't lie and pretend I have answers when I don't. :)

[Sola_Fide]

Right, I believe that child suffering is always a bad thing.

LoL. Why, in an atheist universe, is suffering "bad"? You mean to tell me that a bag of meat that is being acted on by the random forces of the universe and is somehow in some sort of "pain" is a bad thing? Why?

Why is pain bad in an atheist universe?

[Carehn]

It was a logical contradiction.

Creation is logical.
(with the possible exception of the Platypus,, but that is another question I have, when I see him)

The platypus is a conundrum.

[ClayTrainor]

Why, in atheist universe, is suffering "bad"?

Pain is a biological indicator of danger. If you feel pain somewhere in your body, this is an indication that you need to be cautious of that area and investigate it.




You mean to tell me that a bag of meat that is being acted on by the random forces of the universe and is somehow in some sort of "pain" is a bad thing? Why?

Why is pain bad in an atheist universe?

Because it hurts, regardless of whether or not you believe in God. ;)

[Sola_Fide]

Pain is a biological indicator of danger. If you feel pain somewhere in your body, this is an indication that you need to be cautious of that area and investigate it.





Because it hurts, regardless of whether or not you believe in God. ;)

Why is hurting "bad" in an atheist universe? Pain seems like a very good thing to inflict on someone who you want to control. Pain is a great tool for a dictator. Why would you say it is bad?

[Carehn]

Why is pain "bad" in an atheist universe? Pain seems like a very good thing to inflict on someone who you want to control. Pain is a great tool for a dictator. Why would you say it is bad?

Again
http://amberandchaos.com/?page_id=106

[ClayTrainor]

Why is pain "bad" in an atheist universe?

I literally just answered this exact question....



Because it hurts, regardless of whether or not you believe in God. ;)


Pain seems like a very good thing to inflict on someone who you want to control. Pain is a great tool for a dictator. Why would you say it is bad?

Because the dictator would be inflicting pain onto others. I have no problem with the dictator inflicting pain on himself, since he owns himself, but inflicting pain on other is a violation of their natural right to self-ownership. :)

[Sola_Fide]

I literally just answered this exact question....





Because the dictator would be inflicting pain onto others. I have no problem with the dictator inflicting pain on himself, since he owns himself, but inflicting pain on other is a violation of their natural right to self-ownership. :)

So pain is bad because it is bad?

Don't you see how you just made a circular argument?

[ClayTrainor]

Ab2010, do you realize i've answered every single one of your questions, some of them multiple times, and the question which you originally quoted and fired up this whole conversation has yet to be answered?

Interesting.... :)

Whenever you have time...


What is Gods reason for giving some small children cancer, instead of giving cancer to say... all the mass murderers, counterfeiters and rapists instead?

[ClayTrainor]

So pain is bad because it is bad?

Pain is bad because it hurts. When you start cutting yourself, you stop because it hurts, not because god or anyone else told you so. ;)


Don't you see how you just made a circular argument?

God is a square circle.

[Sola_Fide]

Pain is bad because it hurts. When you start cutting yourself, you stop because it hurts, not because god or anyone else told you so. ;)


You have never answered why in an atheist universe that inflicting pain on someone is wrong.

You say it hurts, but why is hurting wrong?

You say that you only own yourself. Why is it wrong to own others?





God is a square circle I have no idea what you mean here.

[pcosmar]

God is a square circle.

And how does that help someone to promote Ron Paul to a Christian?

The purpose of this thread.

[ClayTrainor]

You say it hurts, but why is hurting wrong?

It is a biological indicator of danger to the organism in which you are. When you slam your finger in a drawer, you feel pain in your finger... which is a biological indication that you need to see what's up with your finger as it is in danger.



You say that you only own yourself. Why is it wrong to own others?

Because they own themselves.





I have no idea what you mean here.

God, as i understand it, tends to be a logical contradiction. For example....

1. God is all good. (He always makes the correct moral decision)

2. God is all powerful. (He has the capacity to do and plan whatever he wants)

3. Bad things happen.


Only 2 of the above can logically be true at the same time. Fair assessment, or no?

[ClayTrainor]

And how does that help someone to promote Ron Paul to a Christian?

The purpose of this thread.

I'll be honest, the thread has been derailed by me and AB2010...

[Sola_Fide]

And how does that help someone to promote Ron Paul to a Christian?

The purpose of this thread.

Its not an argument that works against Christianity anyway.

God can't make a square circle. There are some things God can't do. He can't sin. He can't deny Himself. He can't engage in a violation of logic because to do so is to engage in falsehood, and He is Truth itself.

It's never been the Christian idea that God can do EVERYTHING. He can do anything He purposes to do which is in accord with His nature. So therefore, He cannot make a square circle because it is a contradiction and therefore false.

[PaulConventionWV]

Any Christians out there what to tell me how to deal with you people. Sometime you can be so frustrating. Does reason play a role at all in your thinking?

Wow, I find this very offensive. I'm not a retard, dumbass.

EDIT: I realized I'm way late on joining the conversation.

[ClayTrainor]

Its not an argument that works against Christianity anyway.

God can't make a square circle. There are some things God can't do. He can't sin. He can't deny Himself. He can't engage in a violation of logic because to do so is to engage in falsehood, and He is Truth itself.

It's never been the Christian idea that God can do EVERYTHING. He can do anything He purposes to do which is in accord with His nature. So therefore, He cannot make a square circle because it is a contradiction and therefore false.

I agree that a square circle is a logical contradiction. :)

My argument is that, under the following principles, God is also a logical contradiction. (perhaps the principles are incorrect?)


1. God is all good. (He always makes the correct moral decision)

2. God is all powerful. (He has the capacity to do and plan whatever he wants)

3. Bad things happen.

Only 2 of the above can logically be true at the same time. Fair assessment, or no?

[Sola_Fide]

It is a biological indicator of danger to the organism in which you are. When you slam your finger in a drawer, you feel pain in your finger... which is a biological indication that you need to see what's up with your finger as it is in danger.


This in NO WAY shows why inflicting pain is wrong. To say "pain is wrong because it is painful" is a circular argument.


Because they own themselves.

^^^ANOTHER circular argument.

Why do people own themselves? You say "people own themselves because they own themselves". It is a circular argument.



God, as i understand it, tends to be a logical contradiction. For example....

1. God is all good. (He always makes the correct moral decision)

2. God is all powerful. (He has the capacity to do and plan whatever he wants)

3. Bad things happen.


Only 2 of the above can logically be true at the same time. Fair assessment, or no?

No. This is how it should read:


1. God is all good.

2. God is all powerful.

3. Evil exist.

4. God has a good reason for evil to exist at the present time.



There is no logical contradiction.

[ClayTrainor]

This in NO WAY shows why inflicting pain is wrong. To say "pain is wrong because it is painful" is a circular argument.


When you cut yourself with a sharp edge, do you react because god told you so, or because of your nerve endings sent a message to your brain?



^^^ANOTHER circular argument.


Self-Ownership is not a circular argument, it is a logical axiom.



Why do people own themselves? You say "people own themselves because they own themselves". It is a circular argument.


Because they are naturally born as the sole controllers of their mind and organism.



No. This is how it should read:


1. God is all good.

2. God is all powerful.

3. Evil exist.

4. God has a good reason for evil to exist at the present time.




If God is all good, and god is all powerful, than why did he choose to allow for evil to exist?

[ClayTrainor]

If God is all good, and god is all powerful, than why did he choose to allow for evil to exist?

Also, Why did he choose to give small children cancer? If he is all powerful, than it must've been his choice to do so... so what's his reasoning for making small children suffer with cancer and die young?


This is the original question, which you flatout haven't answered yet, even though I've done you the courtesy of answering every single question. :)

[RCA]

Religions are cults.

[TER]

God's ways are beyond our human understanding. No one has the mind of God unless He has revealed them. The whys of evil can not be revealed until after the General Resurrection, for this is the appointed time as stated by God. These are the teachings of Christ held firm and continuous ever for as far back as known.

What we DO know, however, is that God created this world good, and that everything that was ever created was good. Where and how and why corruption and evil exists is not life-giving for us now, in these corruptible bodies, but rather in the appointed time in resurrected bodies before the Great Judgement Seat of Christ. Until then, it is not unto us to know such mysteries of the world and the nature of creation. Of course, He could reveal these mysteries (and He does as witnessed in His saints) but for the rest of us sinners, He is protecting us by not revealing such profound truths of the knowledge of good and evil, lest we also eat of the tree unprepared and 'surely die'.

[Revolution9]

Not a one of you answered my question about the burrito!!!

He could make it so hot it would be plasma and easily digest it.

HTH
Rev9

[Revolution9]

I agree that a square circle is a logical contradiction. :)

But squaring the circle is a sacred geometrical operation.

Rev9

[PaulConventionWV]

I will end this right now because i got what i think i needed.

Riddle me this thread posters...

Could Jesus (being God) make a burrito so HOT even he himself could not eat it?

Answer this and you will know the meaning of life.

I will riddle you that, indeed. The answer is as follows:


The point is that God cannot do something that is a violation of His own existence and nature. Therefore, He cannot make a rock so big he can't pick up, or make something bigger than Himself, etc. But, not being able to do this does not mean He is not God, nor that He is not omnipotent. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable, but the ability to do anything consistent with His nature and consistent with His desire within the realm of His unlimited and universal power which we do not possess. This does not mean He can violate His own nature. If He did something inconsistent with His nature, then He would be self-contradictory. If God were self- contradictory, He would not be true. Likewise, if He did something that violated His nature, like make a rock so big He couldn't pick it up, He would also not be true since that would be a self- contradiction. Since truth is not self-contradictory, as neither is God, if He were not true, then He would not be God. But God is true and not self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot do something that violates His own nature.

http://carm.org/questions/about-god/can-god-make-rock-so-big-he-cant-pick-it

[PaulConventionWV]

Okay, so firstly, I just want to point out that you once again chose not to answer my question which was the first post which you quoted which initiated the whole conversation.

Secondly, the premise of your questioning implies that I must accept my supposed "worldview" as "so cruel". This is a highly insulting premise, which doesn't indicate any curiosity on your part, but rather, that you've already made up your mind and really aren't asking me anything.

Because of this, i'm still unclear of what it is you're trying to ask. I understand your assertions, but not your question.

Without the attack on my supposed "worldview", is it fair to say that you are asking me what is.... "What the reason for there is child suffering, if I don't believe in a God? "

You just made a double standard. You say child suffering must be explained. However, when it comes to your worldview, all of a sudden it's not cruel anymore, even though that was the whole premise for asking the question in the first place. Either child suffering is bad and both worldviews must explain it, or there is no sense in presenting the question to Aqua. Do you see the absurdity here?

[ClayTrainor]

You just made a double standard. You say child suffering must be explained.

If there is a "god" who is all powerful, in that he has the capacity to do and plan whatever he wants, than is he not therefore capable of preventing bad things from happening, but chooses not to?



However, when it comes to your worldview, all of a sudden it's not cruel anymore, even though that was the whole premise for asking the question in the first place.

Child suffering is a very bad thing, according to the way I view things.



Either child suffering is bad and both worldviews must explain it, or there is no sense in presenting the question to Aqua. Do you see the absurdity here?

Child suffering is bad, I'm sure we both agree here. My question involves whether or not God is all powerful. If he is all powerful, than it logically follows that he has the power to prevent bad things from happening, but chooses not to.

[ClayTrainor]

Child suffering is bad, I'm sure we both agree here. My question involves whether or not God is all powerful. If he is all powerful, than it logically follows that he has the power to prevent bad things from happening, but chooses not to.

Let me put it to ya this way... Only 2 of the following principles can logically be true at the same time...

1. God is all good. (He always makes the correct moral decision)

2. God is all powerful. (He has the capacity to do and plan whatever he wants)

3. Bad things happen.

... or am I mistaken?

[TER]

To perform effective chest compressions on a person who is dying, you sometimes have to break ribs. Is this evil, that is, breaking their ribs? Should the physician be culpable for battery and aggression and malintent for doing this to bring the dying back to life?

[Sola_Fide]

Let me put it to ya this way... Only 2 of the following principles can logically be true at the same time...

1. God is all good. (He always makes the correct moral decision)

2. God is all powerful. (He has the capacity to do and plan whatever he wants)

3. Bad things happen.

... or am I mistaken?


Yes. You are mistaken.

This has been answered many times in history already.


1. God is all good
2. God is all powerful
3. Evil exist
4. God has a good reason for evil to exist presently


There is no logical contradiction.

[PaulConventionWV]

Also, Why did he choose to give small children cancer? If he is all powerful, than it must've been his choice to do so... so what's his reasoning for making small children suffer with cancer and die young?


This is the original question, which you flatout haven't answered yet, even though I've done you the courtesy of answering every single question. :)

AB has answered this many times. It serves God's purpose to give kids cancer because there is ultimate justification for their suffering. Your worldview teaches that the kid's suffering means nothing and, therefore, the kid is screwed.

God allowed evil to exist because evil serves a purpose in God's creation which will ultimately result in good. Easy.

[ClayTrainor]

1. God is all good
2. God is all powerful
3. Evil exist
4. God has a good reason for evil to exist presently


If god is all powerful, than doesn't he have the power to stop evil if he chooses too?

[Sola_Fide]

AB has answered this many times. It serves God's purpose to give kids cancer because there is ultimate justification for their suffering. Your worldview teaches that the kid's suffering means nothing and, therefore, the kid is screwed.

God allowed evil to exist because evil serves a purpose in God's creation which will ultimately result in good. Easy.


Exactly. I've said it I don't know how many times and in how many ways.

The real issue is that atheism is the most cruel and heartless worldview ever...but they hide it by lashing out at God's providence, all the while never truly understanding what they are proposing.

They are proposing the most heartless and unfillfulling life possible. Think about how horrible it is to think that there is no ultimate justice in this universe.

[Sola_Fide]

If god is all powerful, than doesn't he have the power to stop evil if he chooses too?

Yes.

Do you want to keep going in circles trying to think you can get me in a logical bind here?

There is no logical contradiction in what I am proposing to you.

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all good
3. Evil exists
4. God has a good reason for evil to exist presently

[ClayTrainor]

It serves God's purpose to give kids cancer because there is ultimate justification for their suffering.

Okay, so God intentionally gives small children cancer because it serves his purpose. Gotcha... :(

What's his purpose exactly? Why does he choose to give small children cancer, instead of all the rapists and murderers?


Your worldview teaches that the kid's suffering means nothing and, therefore, the kid is screwed.

I believe child suffering is bad, and we should do whatever we can to minimize it.


God allowed evil to exist because evil serves a purpose in God's creation which will ultimately result in good. Easy.

Okay, so if god is all powerful, and god allowed evil to exist, than is it fair to say that God 100% responsible for all of the evil in the world?

[TER]

Little girls develop cancer because this is a fallen world. I think most people would admit that there is something wrong with the way the world is, that this world we live in falls short of what our minds and our dreams can envision - a perfection in harmony and peace and joy. For we have all experienced such moments, and it is to live eternally in such moments that we trudge forward.

There is evil in the world. Why? It has not been revealed. But what has been revealed is that

"God so loved that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:16)

[TER]

Clay, can you answer this:


To perform effective chest compressions on a person who is dying, you sometimes have to break ribs. Is this evil, that is, breaking their ribs? Should the physician be culpable for battery and aggression and malintent for doing this to bring the dying back to life?

[PaulConventionWV]

If there is a "god" who is all powerful, in that he has the capacity to do and plan whatever he wants, than is he not therefore capable of preventing bad things from happening, but chooses not to?



Child suffering is a very bad thing, according to the way I view things.




Child suffering is bad, I'm sure we both agree here. My question involves whether or not God is all powerful. If he is all powerful, than it logically follows that he has the power to prevent bad things from happening, but chooses not to.

Which should **then** lead you to the conclusion that suffering has an ultimate purpose and that that ultimate purpose will be good. Very easy to answer. Keep in mind, we can't know all the ways of God because if we did, that would make us God. God has a plan for us that we can't know the details of, but that doesn't mean it is ridiculous to defend God's sovereignty and ability to determine whether something is good or not or what purpose it serves in Creation. See, God also equipped us with the means of understanding God's nature, by allowing us to feel the same way about pain and suffering. It is bad in our view. However, in an atheistic worldview, suffering is just a cruel accident of existence and life itself is meaningless because, in the end, it serves no purpose. You say these things are bad, but you have no objective basis for saying this other than "Well, OBVIOUSLY it's true." No, how is this true? If there is no ultimate meaning to life, why are these things bad? Why is pain bad? Biological determinism makes it necessary for us to see pain as bad for ourselves, but why see it as bad for others? Why should I care about children in your worldview? Self-ownership cannot act as an absolute because nobody can determine that everyone should hold the view that self-ownership is a good thing.

[ClayTrainor]

Yes.

Do you want to keep going in circles trying to think you can get me in a logical bind here?

There is no logical contradiction in what I am proposing to you.

Whatever helps ya sleep at night. :) Only 2 of the following can be true at the same time, to assert otherwise is to engage in a logical contradiction.

1. God is all good
2. God is all powerful
3. Evil exist

and you can add your #4 if you like, but it only raises the original question, which you haven't answered yet. :(


4. God has a good reason for evil to exist presently

I would like to be enlightened as to what this "Good reason" is? I understand that god created evil and has the ability to prevent it, but I don't understand why he chooses not to. Why does he choose to make some young innocent children suffer? What is his rationale?



For what particular reason did God include giving small children cancer, in his plan? Or is this one of the parts that he'll change once he realizes the mistake?

[johnald]

For what particular reason did God include giving small children cancer, in his plan? Or is this one of the parts that he'll change once he realizes the mistake?

Bad juju from a past life
IMO Reincarnation and karma

One thing I've noticed in my life is "that which does not kill us, makes us stronger"
And constitutionally We own ourselves thanks to GOD

If your interested in where science and spirituality meet, check out Dr David Hawkins. Here's a short clip
http://youtu.be/45LuPQUUEAI

[TER]

I would like to be enlightened as to what this "Good reason" is? I understand that god created evil and has the ability to prevent it, but I don't understand why he chooses not to.

Okay, this is the first step. Now, try to understand something. Just because you can't understand something does not mean it is not true. This is extremely important and unless you try to understand this, then you will never discover deeper truths that are not so self-evident.

[ClayTrainor]

Bad juju from a past life
IMO Reincarnation and karma

So children with cancer are being punished for something they supposedly did in a "past life"? I thought God was supposed to be good, and teaches forgiveness?

[ClayTrainor]

Okay, this is the first step. Now, try to understand something. Just because you can't understand something does not mean it is not true. This is extremely important and unless you try to understand this, then you will never discover truths that are not so self-evident.

I accept that, but I also accept that just because I don't understand something, doesn't mean "God did it". :)

[Sola_Fide]

Okay, so God intentionally gives small children cancer because it serves his purpose. Gotcha... :(

What's his purpose exactly? Why does he choose to give small children cancer, instead of all the rapists and murderers?


I don't need to know exactly what His purpose is in order to make the logical case. All of your questioning now is just emotionalism. Its not logical. Its just that you don't like the Lord of glory. Not liking something does not amount to an argument.



I believe child suffering is bad, and we should do whatever we can to minimize it.

Your worldview provides no basis for "bad". If you think the circular arguments you gave earlier are anywhere close to an answer, you need to rethink your position.




Okay, so if god is all powerful, and god allowed evil to exist, than is it fair to say that God 100% responsible for all of the evil in the world?

No, He is not responsible. He didn't commit the sin, you did and I did. We committed the sin, so we are responsible. Which brings me to the real issue of everything here. Clay, there is a God and He has revealed Himself in time and in history. He has declared you guilty of breaking His law, and He by no means will clear the guilty. He offers the free gift of salvation to those who believe in His Son who died to save His people.

This is the real issue here Clay. If what you say on these boards is what you really believe then the issue is that you yourself stand condemned at this very moment and I would be a liar if I didn't tell you this truth right now.

[TER]

I accept that, but I also accept that just because I don't understand something, doesn't mean "God did it". :)

I accept that as well. :)

Could you answer the question I asked earlier? I would really love to learn your answer.

[johnald]

So children with cancer are being punished for something they supposedly did in a "past life"? I thought God was supposed to be good, and teaches forgiveness?

God is good, he let's us learn from our mistakes. Who knows maybe one of those kids with cancer was Hitler reincarnated or OBL. Hard to guess from our limited view.

[TER]

God is good, he let's us learn from our mistakes. Who knows maybe one of those kids with cancer was Hitler reincarnated or OBL. Hard to guess from our limited view.

Or even more likely, how many people do you think this little girl touched with love? How many people found God through her suffering, this little child who plays with angels in the kingdom of God?

[ClayTrainor]

I don't need to know exactly what His purpose is in order to make the logical case. All of your questioning now is just emotionalism. Its not logical. Its just that you don't like the Lord of glory. Not liking something does not amount to an argument.



Your worldview provides no basis for "bad". If you think the circular arguments you gave earlier are anywhere close to an answer, you need to rethink your position.


You keep attacking my supposed "worldview", but you are the only one bringing it up. I merely am trying to question the nature of this "God" being, which is pretty dam important to me if everything you're saying is true. Forget about my "worldview" for a bit, and help me understand yours.


No, He is not responsible. He didn't commit the sin, you did and I did.

What sin did the innocent child with cancer commit?


This is the real issue here Clay. If what you say on these boards is what you really beleive then the issue is that you yourself stand condemned at this very moment and I would be a liar if I didn't tell you this truth right now.

A Being who is all-powerful enough power to help children, but chooses to give them cancer instead is a being who I have no interest in associating with. If what you are saying about this "God" character is true... that he is all powerful and chooses for evil to exist, than for the sake of my dignity I must firmly and proudly stand against him. :)

[ClayTrainor]

I accept that as well. :)

Could you answer the question I asked earlier? I would really love to learn your answer.

Could you please re-post it? I apologize, so many questions I've been trying to answer. :)

[ClayTrainor]

God is good, he let's us learn from our mistakes. Who knows maybe one of those kids with cancer was Hitler reincarnated or OBL. Hard to guess from our limited view.

Well, I can tell you that I lost a good friend of mine when he was only 11. Are you saying there is some kind of objective way to prove that he earned what he got?

Also, is it fair to say, that god under your understanding, is not a forgiving god?

[TER]

Could you please re-post it? I apologize, so many questions I've been trying to answer. :)


To perform effective chest compressions on a person who is dying, you sometimes have to break ribs. Is this evil, that is, breaking their ribs? Should the physician be culpable for battery and aggression and malintent for doing this to bring the dying back to life?

:confused::)

[Sola_Fide]

Whatever helps ya sleep at night. :) Only 2 of the following can be true at the same time, to assert otherwise is to engage in a logical contradiction.

1. God is all good
2. God is all powerful
3. Evil exist

and you can add your #4 if you like, but it only raises the original question, which you haven't answered yet. :(


I would like to be enlightened as to what this "Good reason" is? I understand that god created evil and has the ability to prevent it, but I don't understand why he chooses not to. Why does he choose to make some young innocent children suffer? What is his rationale?


Clay, we get it. You are proposing an idea of the universe in which there is no ultimate reason for suffering and there is no ultimate good that will come out of suffering.

That is something you are going to have to live with man. That is the most cruel and heartless way to think that one could ever imagine. And you have come no where close in defending your cruelty in proposing this idea.

Your idea is to tell the child suffering with a disease that it sucks to be him. There is no reason for his suffering or no ultimate good that can result from it.

Thats atheism bro...thats your cruelty, man.

[ClayTrainor]

:confused::)
To perform effective chest compressions on a person who is dying, you sometimes have to break ribs. Is this evil, that is, breaking their ribs? Should the physician be culpable for battery and aggression and malintent for doing this to bring the dying back to life?

No. :)

[johnald]

Well, I can tell you that I lost a good friend of mine when he was only 11. Are you saying there is some kind of objective way to prove that he earned what he got?

Also, is it fair to say, that god under your understanding, is not a forgiving god?

I believe there is an objective way to prove everything that has happened in history, it's called kinesiology, and if you really want to know about it read "Power vs. Force" by David Hawkins.

[ClayTrainor]

Clay, we get it. You are proposing an idea of the universe in which there is no ultimate reason for suffering and there is no ultimate good that will come out of suffering.

I am merely proposing that human suffering is bad, and it is moral and rational to work against it. I am also inquiring about this "God" character who supposedly is

1. All Good
2. All Powerful
3. Allows for Evil


That is something you are going to have to live with man. That is the most cruel and heartless way to think that one could ever imagine. And you have come no where close in defending your cruelty in proposing this idea.

Your idea is to tell the child suffering with a disease that it sucks to be him. There is no reason for his suffering or no ultimate good that can result from it.

Thats atheism bro...thats your cruelty, man.

You are harshly misrepresenting my position, which I haven't even bothered to describe or bring up in this thread.... but it's okay... like Jesus, I forgive. :)

[TER]

No. :)

Good! Remember that!

[ClayTrainor]

Good! Remember that!

You betcha! :)

[TER]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ&feature=player_embedded

[ClayTrainor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ&feature=player_embedded

If ya want to take a real peek outside of platos cave sometime, I suggest psychedelics... but that's just me. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI1h2vX2MSA

[Sola_Fide]

I am merely proposing that human suffering is bad, and it is moral and rational to work against it. I am also inquiring about this "God" character who supposedly is

1. All Good
2. All Powerful
3. Allows for Evil



You are harshly misrepresenting my position, which I haven't even bothered to describe or bring up in this thread.... but it's okay... like Jesus, I forgive. :)


Excuse me. And you aren't harshly misrepresenting my position?

Maybe you just have never truly thought about the implications of your cruel worldview. And it is downright cruel.



And still you are bringing up the old 3 point question.... I really can't believe it. If you can't see how I just showed that there is no logical contradiction there, then there is no way that you can be helped to see it.

But I will post it again for the benefit of others Christians here who want an answer to this old (and dumb) philosophical question:

1. God is all good
2. God is all powerful
3. Evil exists
4. God has a good reason for evil to exist presently

There is no logical contradiction, and furthermore I don't need to prove what God's ultimate purpose is, just that whatever His purpose is, it is good. That logically completes it.

[PaulConventionWV]

Okay, so God intentionally gives small children cancer because it serves his purpose. Gotcha... :(

What's his purpose exactly? Why does he choose to give small children cancer, instead of all the rapists and murderers?

I don't know what the purpose is, exactly, except that it ultimately is up to God how He does it. That, in no way, should suggest to you that God is not righteous, since I can't answer the question. I am a mortal human being. God shouldn't be held to the standard of a fallible human mind's ability to determine what is ultimately good in the universe. That is exactly my point. Without God, we don't know what is good. However, this in no way invalidates God's ability to use evil as a part of a good plan. Is it really that hard for you to understand?


I believe child suffering is bad, and we should do whatever we can to minimize it.

That's good that you believe that. But why should everyone feel that way? That is the crux of your problem. There is no absolute standard by which you can determine that child suffering is ultimately a detestable thing. You keep using circular logic by saying it's bad. You say it's bad, but you still hold the view that the kid is ultimately screwed and his or her suffering meant nothing in the end. Therefore, why should it matter? It doesn't make any sense in your view.


Okay, so if god is all powerful, and god allowed evil to exist, than is it fair to say that God 100% responsible for all of the evil in the world?

Yes. Evil serves a purpose in creation that will ultimately lead to the good of all creation as well as for the will of God. Some of us don't realize it yet because we are still stuck in this naturalistic worldview. However, I believe everyone will eventually come to see the truth, and will believe. Think about that, Clay. One day, you will be a believer and will worship God and His glory. Maybe not in this life, but it will happen.

[ClayTrainor]

Excuse me. And you aren't harshly misrepresenting my position?

I don't believe so, no. I have been asking very specific questions in order to understand what your position is. I'll admit that I'm still a bit unclear what it is, but I'm certainly not making an attempt to misrepresent.


Maybe you just have never truly thought about the implications of your cruel worldview. And it is downright cruel.


I have seen you have assert this many times, yes, but assertions are not arguments, so I'll need some help. :o

I am arguing that Human suffering is bad, and it is moral and rational to work against it. Why is this downright cruel, in your view?


And still you are bringing up the old 3 point question.... I really can't believe it. If you can't see how I just showed that there is no logical contradiction there, then there is no way that you can be helped to see it.


But I will post it again for the benefit of others Christians here who want an answer to this old (and dumb) philosophical question:

1. God is all good
2. God is all powerful
3. Evil exists
4. God has a good reason for evil to exist presently




I would like to be enlightened as to what this "Good reason" is? I understand that god created evil and has the ability to prevent it, but I don't understand why he chooses not to. Why does he choose to make some young innocent children suffer? What is his rationale?



There is no logical contradiction, and furthermore I don't need to prove what God's ultimate purpose is, just that whatever His purpose is, it is good. That logically completes it.

God is all powerful, which logically follows that he must have the ability to prevent children from getting cancer, but chooses not to... correct?

[ClayTrainor]

I don't know what the purpose is, exactly, except that it ultimately is up to God how He does it. That, in no way, should suggest to you that God is not righteous, since I can't answer the question.


Well, If god is all powerful, meaning he can choose to give children cancer or not, and he chooses to give them cancer... how can it be argued that god is doing something "good", in this case? It seems to me the argument is that I merely "dont understand"... but i can tell you, I am against any being that chooses for children to have cancer, no matter how powerful.

[ClayTrainor]

That's good that you believe that. But why should everyone feel that way? That is the crux of your problem.

Because the logical principles of Non-Aggression and Self-Ownership are axiomatic, regardless of peoples opinion.



Yes. Evil serves a purpose in creation that will ultimately lead to the good of all creation as well as for the will of God. Some of us don't realize it yet because we are still stuck in this naturalistic worldview. However, I believe everyone will eventually come to see the truth, and will believe. Think about that, Clay. One day, you will be a believer and will worship God and His glory. Maybe not in this life, but it will happen.

If this God chose to make people suffer, especially innocent children, when he had the power to choose not to, than I will proudly speak and stand against him.

[Sola_Fide]

I don't believe so, no. I have been asking very specific questions in order to understand what your position is. I'll admit that I'm still a bit unclear what it is, but I'm certainly not making an attempt to misrepresent.



I have seen you have assert this many times, yes, but assertions are not arguments, so I'll need some help. :o

I am arguing that Human suffering is bad, and it is moral and rational to work against it. Why is this downright cruel, in your view?







God is all powerful, which logically follows that he must have the ability to prevent children from getting cancer, but chooses not to... correct?


Clay, my position is that God has an ultimately good reason for the suffering in this life.

Your position is that there is no reason for the suffering in this life and no ultimate justice for anything in this life.

Your worldview is sickeningly cruel, and you have yet to even face it once in this thread.

[ClayTrainor]

Anyways folks, it's 3am here and time for me to think about getting some sleep. It's been fun, thanks for trying to enlighten me of your views on God and the World. :)

[ClayTrainor]

Clay, my position is that God has an ultimately good reason for the suffering in this life.

Right, and I am merely trying to figure how how all 4 of these things can be true at the same time...



1. God is all good
2. God is all powerful
3. Evil exists
4. God has a good reason for evil to exist presently

I don't understand how 1, 2 and 3 can logically be true at the same time, and #4 only tells me there is a "reason", but at no point have you explained what this reason is...

I would like to know what Gods reason is for choosing to give children cancer, when he could've chosen otherwise. I know you say the reason is good, but how do you know? What is the reason?



Your position is that there is no reason for the suffering in this life and no ultimate justice for anything in this life.

Your worldview is sickeningly cruel, and you have yet to even face it once in this thread.

You are setting up a straw man and attacking it. My position as I've stated many time in this thread, is that suffering is bad, and it is moral and rational to work against it. I don't understand how this is sickeningly cruel, but I welcome your explanation. :)

[robert68]

...

No, He is not responsible. He didn't commit the sin, you did and I did. We committed the sin, so we are responsible...

If "God' has absolute sovereignty over everything and his creations have no free will, as you contend, he certainly is responsible for the commission of "sin" and everything that happens. It's a simple matter of definition.

[YumYum]

Why do you believe in worldview so cruel that there is no reason and no ultimate good to come out of the suffering of little children?

What do you believe is the ultimate good that comes out of the suffering of little children?

[YumYum]

Let me put it to ya this way... Only 2 of the following principles can logically be true at the same time...

1. God is all good. (He always makes the correct moral decision)

2. God is all powerful. (He has the capacity to do and plan whatever he wants)

3. Bad things happen.

... or am I mistaken?

I had a psychologist point this out to me:

God is either all knowing, all powerful (where He can do anything He wants to), or He is limited in power (maybe His hands are tied for some reason?)

If He is all powerful and can do anything, He is unjust to allow the suffering of little children and of all mankind in general.

On the other hand, if He is limited in power, He can be a just God who is loving, He just can't do anything about all the suffering.

This creates a dilemma for Christians. In their eyes, God is all powerful, He can do everything and anything, and He is a just, loving God.

What's the answer? Predestination. God predestined it. We don't know why He predestined it, but He did, so don't worry about it, because it all works out for the good in the end.

Of course, this opens up a million questions that challenge the validity of predestination (which should be discussed in the religion forum), but no one has the answer as to who exactly is God, and why He does the things that He does.

My take: God only cares about the "chosen ones" that Jesus spoke of. If you're not "chosen", you're, well, I hate to say it, "sh*t outta luck."


In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God's chosen ones.
Matthew 24:22

[Carehn]

I will end this right now because i got what i think i needed.

Riddle me this thread posters...

Could Jesus (being God) make a burrito so HOT even he himself could not eat it?

Answer this and you will know the meaning of life.

And still after like a thousand posts no one has even tried to answer my question about the burrito.

[YumYum]

And still after like a thousand posts no one has even tried to answer my question about the burrito.

If He did, would He still be a "loving" and "just" God?

[Sola_Fide]

Because the logical principles of Non-Aggression and Self-Ownership are axiomatic, regardless of peoples opinion.




If this God chose to make people suffer, especially innocent children, when he had the power to choose not to, than I will proudly speak and stand against him.

1. If you are justifying self-ownership by an appeal to our nature, then you are engaging in the naturalistic fallacy and your argument is invalid. I have pointed this out so many times on this forum.

Conclusions of arguments can't contain more than the premises. You cannot derive prescriptions from descriptions.

I am calling everyone out right now who is using this "non-aggression principle" argument.

IT IS FALLACIOUS.

It is invalid.

It is illogical.

It falls into the is-ought fallacy and is therefore FALSE.


2. Fallacious arguments aside, let's look at what you are proposing. You are proposing a universe in which there is no ultimate justice. That means that tyrants like Chairman Mao had their fun, murdered who they wanted, and lived a good life. This is the most heartless and cruel worldview that the mind of man has ever devised.

How can you live with yourself when you preach to people that tyrants will never face justice ultimately?

[YumYum]

1. If you are justifying self-ownership by an appeal to our nature, then you are engaging in the naturalistic fallacy and your argument is invalid. I have pointed this out so many times on this forum.

Conclusions of arguments can't contain more than the premises. You cannot derive prescriptions from descriptions.

I am calling everyone out right now who is using this "non-aggression principle" argument.

IT IS FALLACIOUS.

It is invalid.

It is illogical.

It falls into the is-ought fallacy and is therefore FALSE.


2. Fallacious arguments aside, let's look at what you are proposing. You are proposing a universe in which there is no ultimate justice. That means that tyrants like Chairman Mao had their fun, murdered who they wanted, and lived a good life. This is the most heartless and cruel worldview that the mind of man has ever devised.

How can you live with yourself when you preach to people that tyrants will never face justice ultimately?

Look at Job's children. They weren't "chosen" like Job, because God told Satan,"you can slaughter Job's children, just don't kill Job". And Satan obeyed God, because he slaughtered all of Job's children, but didn't kill Job.

[acptulsa]

Remind her that God wanted us to fight His enemies.

This thread is 98% useless. This post is one of the few exceptions. The Bible is chock full of people being rewarded for fighting evil and somebody's aunt has us all tied up in knots because she's under the delusion that evil is part of God's plan so it shouldn't be fought--it should have its way. Bull.

Tell her if we don't fight evil we're unworthy and a vote for Ron Paul is a shot against evil. It's simple, obvious, and has the great advantage of being true.

And if she says she doesn't think these Bilderberg puppets are any less evil than Ron Paul because they pray in public against the advice of Matthew Six and like the Pharisees, ask her to find you the tracts in Revelations about false prophets so you can read them to her.

And AquaBudda that goes triple for you. Who gives a damn if Mao burns in some Dante-esque hellfire or just lies quietly in the ground for eternity? It isn't your call and honestly isn't your concern. The question is, are you fighting the good fight on behalf of your fellow humans or aren't you? That's the question. And if you're not, you're just a troll--and yes, the devil employs unwitting trolls. Join the good fight or STFU.

'No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn'--Jim Morrison

This is no time to bury our talents in the sand.

[PaulConventionWV]

Well, If god is all powerful, meaning he can choose to give children cancer or not, and he chooses to give them cancer... how can it be argued that god is doing something "good", in this case? It seems to me the argument is that I merely "dont understand"... but i can tell you, I am against any being that chooses for children to have cancer, no matter how powerful.

That's because you trust your own sense of morality... but where did this sense come from? How do you or anyone else know or care about little children? You haven't answered this question either. If there is not ultimate justification for suffering, that is, that there is no end result of life and that life is ultimately meaningless, why should I care? Why should it then matter to me whether or not God behaves according to my feelings since those feelings are invalid without God?

The point is, your morality can never determine the righteousness of God, since God is the ultimate arbiter of morality and the standard by which ALL THINGS are measured, including your morality. You would like to forget about God's "other" little laws so you are not restricted by them, but being moral in this life requires that you follow God's standard since only He is ultimately good.

As for how it can be argued that it is good, it really doesn't need to, since we can't determine good by ourselves, so what God does is good by default. If He has chosen to use suffering as a means to a good end, then suffering is completely justified, considering that this suffering is temporary. Another way to answer your question would be to say that we can't know good without first knowing evil. This is the way God has chosen to make us aware. I don't need to explain why. You're asking me to delve into the secrets of the universe, which is something you can't do yourself.

[PaulConventionWV]

Right, and I am merely trying to figure how how all 4 of these things can be true at the same time...


I don't understand how 1, 2 and 3 can logically be true at the same time, and #4 only tells me there is a "reason", but at no point have you explained what this reason is...

I would like to know what Gods reason is for choosing to give children cancer, when he could've chosen otherwise. I know you say the reason is good, but how do you know? What is the reason?



You are setting up a straw man and attacking it. My position as I've stated many time in this thread, is that suffering is bad, and it is moral and rational to work against it. I don't understand how this is sickeningly cruel, but I welcome your explanation. :)

Your problem with the example AB has posted above is that it absolutely must deny that evil can be good in any way, shape or form. However, the truth of this statement is completely dependent on God. He and only He can decide what is good or moral because He is God. Therefore, anything He decides to do in order to teach us the lesson of evil is ultimately justified in eternity. Temporary suffering doesn't mean squat if the end result is eternally justified. The problem is that you only think that THIS LIFE is the standard for determining what is good or bad. If it hurts in this life, you shouldn't do it and shouldn't support anyone who does it. God, however, is all-powerful and knows what He is doing and the suffering is, therefore, justified. In your view, there is no reason to hold axiomatic truths as righteous or good, since there is no end result or justification of life. If we are just going to dissolve into nothingness, then it doesn't matter in the least what you do to prevent suffering because, ultimately, that means a person's suffering would have been in vain. Everyone's life would have been in vain were that the truth. I think you should have to explain it, and you only explain it by saying, in this life, you are against it. However, that doesn't change the fact that you believe everyone's life is ultimately meaningless. Therefore, you really don't have a reason to feel like this, except that you share your view with God, although you won't acknowledge that He exists. God is righteous and exists independently of your belief or disbelief.

[YumYum]

That's because you trust your own sense of morality... but where did this sense come from? How do you or anyone else know or care about little children? You haven't answered this question either. If there is not ultimate justification for suffering, that is, that there is no end result of life and that life is ultimately meaningless, why should I care? Why should it then matter to me whether or not God behaves according to my feelings since those feelings are invalid without God?

The point is, your morality can never determine the righteousness of God, since God is the ultimate arbiter of morality and the standard by which ALL THINGS are measured, including your morality. You would like to forget about God's "other" little laws so you are not restricted by them, but being moral in this life requires that you follow God's standard since only He is ultimately good.

As for how it can be argued that it is good, it really doesn't need to, since we can't determine good by ourselves, so what God does is good by default. If He has chosen to use suffering as a means to a good end, then suffering is completely justified, considering that this suffering is temporary. Another way to answer your question would be to say that we can't know good without first knowing evil. This is the way God has chosen to make us aware. I don't need to explain why. You're asking me to delve into the secrets of the universe, which is something you can't do yourself.

First of all, how do you know that suffering is "temporary"? It says that those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire will suffer eternal torment "day and night, forever, and forever".

I don't think he is asking you to "delve into the secrets of the Universe", he is just asking AB to justify his claims.

"If God is an all loving, just God, who is all powerful and can do anything, why does He allow suffering?"

This is a very valid question that people have raised for centuries.

If God reveals things through "revelation", why hasn't He revealed the answer to this one question, which has stumbled billions of people who would have otherwise became believers?

[acptulsa]

Blah blah blah.

The God of Free Will--that's liberty to you--wants to know. Are you wheat or are you chaff? You're taking a beating. He obviously wants to find out. Do you stand against evil or do you use 'oh it's His will' as an excuse to lie there and let evil win?

And if you're one of the irreligious in this thread, then what the @#$& is your excuse for letting evil win while we argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Oh, it's Cheney's will?

Bah. This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This is a call to arms.

[PaulConventionWV]

And still after like a thousand posts no one has even tried to answer my question about the burrito.

Carehn, I answered it.

Did you ignore it or did you just miss it?

[YumYum]

Your problem with the example AB has posted above is that it absolutely must deny that evil can be good in any way, shape or form. However, the truth of this statement is completely dependent on God. He and only He can decide what is good or moral because He is God. Therefore, anything He decides to do in order to teach us the lesson of evil is ultimately justified in eternity. Temporary suffering doesn't mean squat if the end result is eternally justified. The problem is that you only think that THIS LIFE is the standard for determining what is good or bad. If it hurts in this life, you shouldn't do it and shouldn't support anyone who does it. God, however, is all-powerful and knows what He is doing and the suffering is, therefore, justified. In your view, there is no reason to hold axiomatic truths as righteous or good, since there is no end result or justification of life. If we are just going to dissolve into nothingness, then it doesn't matter in the least what you do to prevent suffering because, ultimately, that means a person's suffering would have been in vain. Everyone's life would have been in vain were that the truth. I think you should have to explain it, and you only explain it by saying, in this life, you are against it. However, that doesn't change the fact that you believe everyone's life is ultimately meaningless. Therefore, you really don't have a reason to feel like this, except that you share your view with God, although you won't acknowledge that He exists. God is righteous and exists independently of your belief or disbelief.

Your explanation here creates a theme and contradiction. On the one hand, you and AB claim that that God wants us to have liberty and freedom right now, today. In fact, you and AB claim that the Bible and that Protestantism is the basis for freedom and liberty, but on the other hand, then you say that God planned in advance people's suffering, which violates all of our freedoms and liberties.

[PaulConventionWV]

First of all, how do you know that suffering is "temporary"? It says that those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire will suffer eternal torment "day and night, forever, and forever".

I don't think he is asking you to "delve into the secrets of the Universe", he is just asking AB to justify his claims.

"If God is an all loving, just God, who is all powerful and can do anything, why does He allow suffering?"

This is a very valid question that people have raised for centuries.

If God reveals things through "revelation", why hasn't He revealed the answer to this one question, which has stumbled billions of people who would have otherwise became believers?

That is another subject entirely. I don't believe there is eternal torment, which highlights one of the differents between AB and I. Hell is not a Biblical teaching. The word in the Bible used to describe "eternal" torment actually has a plural, so eternal doesn't make sense in this context. Another definition of this word is "until the end of the age", wich makes much more sense considering that you can have multiple ages of time. You can't have multiple eternities.

[SCButterfly]

Instead of going around your elbow to get to your @sshole....

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God:

Genesis 50:20
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.

Um hello? Folks that say they understand "freewill"? Without evil we would be "subservient robots of good" which is not what God wants. God wants people to freely choose to love Him. So there must be a choice offered between good and evil. God "allows" evil to bring to fruition His grace, mercy and redemption. "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice".

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men…...

He will be the truth that will offend them one and all
A stone that makes men stumble
And a rock that makes them fall
Many will be broken so that He can make them whole
And many will be crushed and lose their own soul:

Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

1Peter 2:7-8
Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

1John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

P.S. Burrito = Matthew 4:5-7
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

P.P.S. The original question I believe was how to "get to" Christians? Try this one:
1Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
or this:
1John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

P.P.P.S. In case you've never noticed, Ron Paul = "a rock of offense"...think about it.

[TER]

"If God is an all loving, just God, who is all powerful and can do anything, why does He allow suffering?"

This is a very valid question that people have raised for centuries.

If God reveals things through "revelation", why hasn't He revealed the answer to this one question, which has stumbled billions of people who would have otherwise became believers?

We don't know why He has not revealed it, just as we do not know why eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was something God forbid Adam to do. But Adam did not have faith in God, he did not trust God, he did not obey God, and because of his disobedience, lack of faith, and envious pride, he did that which he ought not have done, and tasted of the tree, that is, gained knowledge of good and evil, at a time he was not supposed to, unprepared for, and directly against the commandment of God. By these actions, sin entered into creation and we all know the history after that.

The point is, we must accept that there are things that have not been revealed to us and it is for reasons only known to God that evil exists. In faith and trust and obedience, we must patiently wait for the time when God will stand before us and say 'Take, eat of this tree, learn the knowledge of good and evil, and understand the mysteries from before the foundation of the world which were kept hidden in order to bring you to salvation.'

[Maestro232]

As a Christian who also happens to believe in divine inevitability, I feel qualified to answer this question....

The reason we should act is because God has not only determined the ENDS, but he has also determined the MEANS for those ends.

e.g. God has determined the END that Jimmy gets saved, but he has also determined the means that Preacher Tom speak the Gospel in Jimmy's hearing, and the Holy Spirit takes Preacher Tom's speaking and applies it to Jimmy's heart.

Thus, it may be God's will that Dr. Paul be President, but if so, the means to that end would be grassroots work by God's children to spread the word.

Selah.

[dannno]

Could Jesus (being God) make a burrito so HOT even he himself could not eat it?


Not make, MICROWAVE :)

I made a thread about it back in the day but it got archived..

[dannno]

As a Christian who also happens to believe in divine inevitability, I feel qualified to answer this question....

The reason we should act is because God has not only determined the ENDS, but he has also determined the MEANS for those ends.

e.g. God has determined the END that Jimmy gets saved, but he has also determined the means that Preacher Tom speak the Gospel in Jimmy's hearing, and the Holy Spirit takes Preacher Tom's speaking and applies it to Jimmy's heart.

Thus, it may be God's will that Dr. Paul be President, but if so, the means to that end would be grassroots work by God's children to spread the word.

Selah.

That's a good point. God may come to the OP's aunt and ask them why they just sat around when they knew what the right thing to do was.

[Sola_Fide]

As a Christian who also happens to believe in divine inevitability, I feel qualified to answer this question....

The reason we should act is because God has not only determined the ENDS, but he has also determined the MEANS for those ends.

e.g. God has determined the END that Jimmy gets saved, but he has also determined the means that Preacher Tom speak the Gospel in Jimmy's hearing, and the Holy Spirit takes Preacher Tom's speaking and applies it to Jimmy's heart.

Thus, it may be God's will that Dr. Paul be President, but if so, the means to that end would be grassroots work by God's children to spread the word.

Selah.

Absolutely.

[Carehn]

Carehn, I answered it.

Did you ignore it or did you just miss it?

I did miss it but went back and found it. Good point, a creator cannot make something better then himself.

[Theocrat]

Im trying to talk to my aunt about Ron Paul via email and the only think she ever comes back with is that its all part of Gods plan.


How the hell do you light i fire up under someone when they think Nothing maters because we are just fallowing some kind of holy script?

What do I tell her in order to get her eyes to deglaze?

Any Christians out there what to tell me how to deal with you people. Sometime you can be so frustrating. Does reason play a role at all in your thinking?

Ok sorry but she is getting my goat.

I would refer her to some resources, like the ones at WallBuilders (http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?cat=HW).

[PaulConventionWV]

First of all, how do you know that suffering is "temporary"? It says that those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire will suffer eternal torment "day and night, forever, and forever".

A better translation would be "forever of ever." If you think about it, forever and ever would be pretty redundant. The translation is a reference to the ages of time, or "forever until the end of the age." I know that suffering is temporary because it wouldn't be consistent with God's nature to cast anyone into eternal torment. That would mean God was only forgiving to some, and I feel like he would have said that were that the case. Also, it simply is not a biblical teaching. All references to hell or eternal torment are in reference to finite situations in this mortal life in the Bible.


I don't think he is asking you to "delve into the secrets of the Universe", he is just asking AB to justify his claims.

I answered his questions, and he started asking some really specific things, things which are beyond my ability to know. It's ridiculous to think that I would be able to claim to know what God's plan is. Even if I did try to explain it to him or to anyone, most people would accuse me of being a know-it-all and claiming to possess information that I cannot possibly possess, and they would be right in doing that. The point is that there is no logical contradiction.


"If God is an all loving, just God, who is all powerful and can do anything, why does He allow suffering?"

This is a very valid question that people have raised for centuries.

If God reveals things through "revelation", why hasn't He revealed the answer to this one question, which has stumbled billions of people who would have otherwise became believers?

We have the ability to know the answer to this question, or at least to explain how the existence of such things is consistent with a just, all-knowing, all-powerful God. That's all we really need to know. Claiming to know anything more about God's specific plan or why exactly He chose to do it this way would be moot and an exercise in futility. I've given an answer to this question and how it can be consistent with the God of the Bible. There is not contradiction.

[PaulConventionWV]

Your explanation here creates a theme and contradiction. On the one hand, you and AB claim that that God wants us to have liberty and freedom right now, today. In fact, you and AB claim that the Bible and that Protestantism is the basis for freedom and liberty, but on the other hand, then you say that God planned in advance people's suffering, which violates all of our freedoms and liberties.

God's will and God's plan are two different things. God obviously wants us to all love and worship Him right now, but in His knowledge, He has decided it best that we come to knowledge of God through experience and faith in a world of uncertainty. If we were to simply know good right off the bat, we would be slaves to good and not know what evil is. My point is that, before we can know what good is, we must know evil. God's plan is perfect, and His will recognizes the completion of that plan as good. He wants us to all come to him, but He also wants and thinks it's best to do it this way. We're not robots. We were put in a world with limited knowledge in order to come to God through faith and experience.

You may say this would require free will and thus invalidate predestination, but that is not true. We still perceive free will, and thus our reactions based on our experiences in this world are genuine, although they were predetermined. We don't know God's plan for this reason. Since we do not know God's plan, it keeps the responsibility on us to act in the faith the best way we know how, since we can never be absolutely certain of what our predestination really is.

[dawnbt]

As a born again Christian I'll start by stating that the best way to talk to a Christian is not to call them "you people", "frustrating", and "without reason".;)

With that said...you may want to let her know, Yes. God does have the final say, however, as I'm sure she's aware Christians in many countries in this world are oppressed and persecuted. They suffer under governments they are powerless to change and governments that hate their faith and silence their voices. These believers preach the gospel of Jesus Christ at risk of their own lives. In the U.S.A., Christians have been blessed with the right to speak about and choose their leaders without fearing for themselves or their families. This can likely change. In our day and age, there are many who want to drive the name and message of Christ completely out of the public arena. Voting is an opportunity to promote, protect, and preserve godly government. Passing up that opportunity means letting those who would denigrate the name of Christ have their way in our lives. The leaders we elect—or do nothing to remove—have great influence on our freedoms. They can choose to protect our right to worship and spread the gospel, or they can restrict those rights.
God helps those who help themselves.

[BrendenR]

She's right. In the grand picture, politics means nothing.

In the grand picture everything means nothing.

[Sola_Fide]

It is a biological indicator of danger to the organism in which you are. When you slam your finger in a drawer, you feel pain in your finger... which is a biological indication that you need to see what's up with your finger.


Not to beat a dead horse here, but I'd just like to point out that this kind of utilitarian argument commits the naturalistic fallacy and is therefore invalid.

The FACT that men are motivated by pain or pleasure does not imply that they OUGHT to be. Ought cannot be derived from is.

[PaulConventionWV]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I'd just like to point out that this kind of utilitarian argument commits the naturalistic fallacy and is therefore invalid.

The FACT that men are motivated by pain or pleasure does not imply that they OUGHT to be. Ought cannot be derived from is.

Yeah, men motivated solely by pain vs. pleasure... we see how that usually works out...

[RoyalShock]

I don't have time to read 18 pages of replies, so if this has already been said, my apologies.

But in regard to the OP, ask your aunt if she believes that God's people are the ones who carry out his plan/will. If she says no, she's not ready to become an active participant either in politics or in her faith. ("Faith without works is dead.")

If she says yes, then ask if not her, who is going to do it? If God has a plan for who should lead this nation, are not all Christians obligated to pray for God's will to be revealed to them, then act on it?

But how will she know God's will? She needs to be informed and know scripture, so that she can "test" the candidates and issues. It might also be helpful to let her know that Christ never instructed his followers to petition the government for anything, let alone laws to enforce Biblical morality.