tangent4ronpaul
08-02-2011, 04:49 PM
You have 4 months to bitch about this and stock up!
The latest in DHS idiocy...
US to propose ammonium nitrate regulations
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/02/us-to-propose-ammonium-nitrate-regulations-324979782/
Ammonium nitrate is one of the most common farm fertilizers in the world, and instructions for turning it into a bomb are available on the Internet. Its deadly potential was once again realized on July 22, when a Norwegian man allegedly blew up a government building in his country, killing eight people with a bomb that investigators believe was made with ammonium nitrate.
On Tuesday, the Homeland Security Department's proposal was posted on the Federal Register website, and the public will have 120 days to comment.
As it's proposed, the "Ammonium Nitrate Security Program" would require those who purchase, sell or transfer at least 25 pounds of the chemical in the U.S. to register with the government so that they may be screened against U.S. terror watch lists, according to a homeland security official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the proposal had not formally been published. Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh used 4,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate to blow up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in 1995.
"In today's ever-evolving threat environment, we must continually reinforce the security of substances, such as ammonium nitrate, which can be used for legitimate purposes or exploited by terrorists," Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said Tuesday.
The Homeland Security Department would give registration numbers to those who are approved to buy, sell or transfer ammonium nitrate. The registrants would also be required to keep records and report the theft or loss of the chemical within 24 hours of discovering it missing.
Here it is:
http://www.ofr.gov/OFRUpload/OFRData/2011-19313_PI.pdf
Why is this completely stupid?
Lets see, to the best of my knowledge the stuff is only useful (besides as a fertilizer or common lab chemical) for blasting in mining and maybe stumps as well as for car and truck bombs. IIRC - there have only been 3 car or truck bombs ever in this country.
The first was in the early 1900's and used dynamite.
The second was the first attack on the world trade center and used urea nitrate. uh oh :eek: stay away from my pee pee DHS!
The third was McVeigh who used a combination of Ammonium Nitrate and Fuel Oil along with a lot of tanks of Acetaline(sp?) gas. Are they going to put these restrictions on welding supplies next?
The thing is all those recipes all over the Internet rely on prilled ammonium nitrate to mix with fuel oil. If it's that easy, why have we only seen one ANFO bomb go off in the countries history? Why is this so urgent a decade and a half after that sole incident?
Well, a few things:
First - after OK City they started coating the prills with something so fuel oil couldn't be absorbed into them. It was however found that this coating could be buffed off. I would imagine that buffing the coating off 4,000 pounds of AN might take a while...
Second - It takes a minimum column diameter to sustain a detonation wave - something like 4-6". That's why it's pretty useless for pipe bombs.
Third - It' takes as a minimum a 1 pound charge of TNT or equivalent to initiate the reaction. If your "terrorist" has access to TNT, then DHS has a lot bigger problem than all the farmers and gardeners they are planning on harassing...
Right now, the smallest bag of AN I've seen for sale is something like 40 pounds. With the new restrictions kicking in at 25 pounds, I can see the market react by repackaging in 20 or 24.5 pound bags. That means that "bad guys" would have to adapt and make many smaller purchases - like meth makers do. Little more hassle, but no biggie.
You can also make it trivially by cross conversion of other, very common chemicals/fertilizers. That however leaves you with a powdered product - that could also be used as an explosive - say by mixing it with nitro-glycerine... If your "terrorist" has access to NG, then DHS has a lot bigger problem than all the farmers and gardeners they are planning on harassing... An besides - they could always mix it (NG) with something else - say sawdust, to make dynamite.
OR - they could turn it into prills. A total PITA, but fairly trivial and on the level of buffing that protective coating off 4,000 lbs of AN prills. Just take a pump, a grain silo and a really big fan at the base. Set up a sprayer at the top and it acts like rain or hail - not falling till the individual prills mass exceeds the fans ability to keep it airborne. Consult any good Industrial chem text for details.
The other problem with AN is that it's incredibly hydroscopic, so you have to drive out the water before it will absorb the fuel oil. Another good reason we don't see it used in bombs here, but do see it used in very dry places like the middle east where access to high explosives is also common.
What about other times DHS has pulled this kind of crap?
HAZMAT shipping had driven costs up.
The restriction on how much gas a farmer could take to their field was going to put them out of business - so that rule was reversed.
The restriction on people that could purchase dynamite severely limited farmers ability to clear land. I remember one case where a farmer was put out of business because he couldn't blast stumps any more to clear land due to a criminal conviction 30 years prior for a non-violent offense. He'd had a clean record since.
I also remember being questioned for about 15 minutes because I was buying 1 lb of sulfur to get rid of some blight on my strawberries. Seems the BATFE had been around earlier and told all the garden shops to watch out for certain chemical sales.
The last time I flew - my nail clippers were considered a "weapon" and confiscated. Then on the flight, I was handed a can of pop by the flight attendant. If you don't know - empty that pop can crimp it in the middle and work the 2 ends back and forth and you have 2 razor sharp "weapons" after the middle gives way - on par with any box cutter.
F'ing disgusting idiocy!
-t
The latest in DHS idiocy...
US to propose ammonium nitrate regulations
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/02/us-to-propose-ammonium-nitrate-regulations-324979782/
Ammonium nitrate is one of the most common farm fertilizers in the world, and instructions for turning it into a bomb are available on the Internet. Its deadly potential was once again realized on July 22, when a Norwegian man allegedly blew up a government building in his country, killing eight people with a bomb that investigators believe was made with ammonium nitrate.
On Tuesday, the Homeland Security Department's proposal was posted on the Federal Register website, and the public will have 120 days to comment.
As it's proposed, the "Ammonium Nitrate Security Program" would require those who purchase, sell or transfer at least 25 pounds of the chemical in the U.S. to register with the government so that they may be screened against U.S. terror watch lists, according to a homeland security official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the proposal had not formally been published. Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh used 4,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate to blow up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in 1995.
"In today's ever-evolving threat environment, we must continually reinforce the security of substances, such as ammonium nitrate, which can be used for legitimate purposes or exploited by terrorists," Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said Tuesday.
The Homeland Security Department would give registration numbers to those who are approved to buy, sell or transfer ammonium nitrate. The registrants would also be required to keep records and report the theft or loss of the chemical within 24 hours of discovering it missing.
Here it is:
http://www.ofr.gov/OFRUpload/OFRData/2011-19313_PI.pdf
Why is this completely stupid?
Lets see, to the best of my knowledge the stuff is only useful (besides as a fertilizer or common lab chemical) for blasting in mining and maybe stumps as well as for car and truck bombs. IIRC - there have only been 3 car or truck bombs ever in this country.
The first was in the early 1900's and used dynamite.
The second was the first attack on the world trade center and used urea nitrate. uh oh :eek: stay away from my pee pee DHS!
The third was McVeigh who used a combination of Ammonium Nitrate and Fuel Oil along with a lot of tanks of Acetaline(sp?) gas. Are they going to put these restrictions on welding supplies next?
The thing is all those recipes all over the Internet rely on prilled ammonium nitrate to mix with fuel oil. If it's that easy, why have we only seen one ANFO bomb go off in the countries history? Why is this so urgent a decade and a half after that sole incident?
Well, a few things:
First - after OK City they started coating the prills with something so fuel oil couldn't be absorbed into them. It was however found that this coating could be buffed off. I would imagine that buffing the coating off 4,000 pounds of AN might take a while...
Second - It takes a minimum column diameter to sustain a detonation wave - something like 4-6". That's why it's pretty useless for pipe bombs.
Third - It' takes as a minimum a 1 pound charge of TNT or equivalent to initiate the reaction. If your "terrorist" has access to TNT, then DHS has a lot bigger problem than all the farmers and gardeners they are planning on harassing...
Right now, the smallest bag of AN I've seen for sale is something like 40 pounds. With the new restrictions kicking in at 25 pounds, I can see the market react by repackaging in 20 or 24.5 pound bags. That means that "bad guys" would have to adapt and make many smaller purchases - like meth makers do. Little more hassle, but no biggie.
You can also make it trivially by cross conversion of other, very common chemicals/fertilizers. That however leaves you with a powdered product - that could also be used as an explosive - say by mixing it with nitro-glycerine... If your "terrorist" has access to NG, then DHS has a lot bigger problem than all the farmers and gardeners they are planning on harassing... An besides - they could always mix it (NG) with something else - say sawdust, to make dynamite.
OR - they could turn it into prills. A total PITA, but fairly trivial and on the level of buffing that protective coating off 4,000 lbs of AN prills. Just take a pump, a grain silo and a really big fan at the base. Set up a sprayer at the top and it acts like rain or hail - not falling till the individual prills mass exceeds the fans ability to keep it airborne. Consult any good Industrial chem text for details.
The other problem with AN is that it's incredibly hydroscopic, so you have to drive out the water before it will absorb the fuel oil. Another good reason we don't see it used in bombs here, but do see it used in very dry places like the middle east where access to high explosives is also common.
What about other times DHS has pulled this kind of crap?
HAZMAT shipping had driven costs up.
The restriction on how much gas a farmer could take to their field was going to put them out of business - so that rule was reversed.
The restriction on people that could purchase dynamite severely limited farmers ability to clear land. I remember one case where a farmer was put out of business because he couldn't blast stumps any more to clear land due to a criminal conviction 30 years prior for a non-violent offense. He'd had a clean record since.
I also remember being questioned for about 15 minutes because I was buying 1 lb of sulfur to get rid of some blight on my strawberries. Seems the BATFE had been around earlier and told all the garden shops to watch out for certain chemical sales.
The last time I flew - my nail clippers were considered a "weapon" and confiscated. Then on the flight, I was handed a can of pop by the flight attendant. If you don't know - empty that pop can crimp it in the middle and work the 2 ends back and forth and you have 2 razor sharp "weapons" after the middle gives way - on par with any box cutter.
F'ing disgusting idiocy!
-t