Don't raise taxes!!! ???

[Sematary]

Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS

Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/which-10-giant-corporations-dont-pay-taxes-1587/

This shit REALLY pisses me off. God forbid we should ask the corporations that are raking it in on the backs of the working class to pay their fair share!

[Acala]

The problem is NOT that anyone is failing to pay their share. The problem is that government has slipped its Constitutional bounds and gone on an insane spending spree. It needs to be reigned in HARD!!!! NOW!!! The argument that this class isn't paying enough or that class is paying too much is a diversion. Stay focused!

[Sematary]

So you don't think that corporations which earn billions of dollars in profits every year should pay taxes?
Not only should they pay taxes, but the idea that they get tax rebates is ludicrous.
And, on top of that, many of these same companies received TARP funds. Ridiculous.

Part of the problem in restoring the balance of the budget IS tax receipts. I will be SHOCKED if Congress extends the Bush tax cuts and more, I will be righteously angry if they do so.

[Sematary]

actually, now that I think about it, even if we "raised" their effective tax rate to FREAKING ZERO, the government would make out. How f'd up is THAT? How can anyone justify corporations NOT paying ANY TAXES AND getting tarp funds AND getting a rebate check. I dare ANYONE to justify that!

[Ronulus]

The problem is that they appeal to these big businesses giving them bailouts and tax breaks while start up businesses and mid sized businesses get taxed to all hell. I don't believe increasing taxes for anyone is going to do a great deal to help the government debt. They will just see that extra money as more for them to spend, which is the problem in the first place, spending is out of control.

If you are for taxing these big businesses fine, but know that it won't even put a dent in the debt problem or spending problem of the fed.

Especially when some of these companies can base their HQ overseas and pay less in taxes and or put their money in foreign banks to avoid paying those taxes.

[kah13176]

How about restoring private property rights, removing liability caps, and ending subsidies?

[ChaosControl]

Considering all the things corporations get, they should pay more. Remove all the idiotic deductions/subsidies that allow crap like this to happen.
I don't think corporations should pay lower rates than people who work and actually produce things. Nor should investors.

[Sematary]

all good ideas but that still doesn't get to MY point - which is that these corporations should be paying taxes and asking them to is NOT un-American, or against the wealthy or any such bs. It is asking them to pay their fair share, instead of asking ACTUAL TAXPAYERS to subsidize their businesses.

[Sematary]

I'm with you on that ChaosControl (love the name btw)

[Anti Federalist]

Corporations do not "pay" anything, they just pass the cost along to the end customer.

Tariffs, that's another story, because that forces investment and jobs back into the country.

Higher corporate income taxes just runs jobs off.


So you don't think that corporations which earn billions of dollars in profits every year should pay taxes?
Not only should they pay taxes, but the idea that they get tax rebates is ludicrous.
And, on top of that, many of these same companies received TARP funds. Ridiculous.

Part of the problem in restoring the balance of the budget IS tax receipts. I will be SHOCKED if Congress extends the Bush tax cuts and more, I will be righteously angry if they do so.

[Seraphim]

Exactly. There is no such thing as a corporate tax. The taxes get calculated into the price of their goods/services. So who pays the taxes? YOU do, Sematary, you do.


Corporations do not "pay" anything, they just pass the cost along to the end customer.

Tariffs, that's another story, because that forces investment and jobs back into the country.

Higher corporate income taxes just runs jobs off.

[Sematary]

Which STILL doesn't speak to corporations getting REBATES on taxes they didn't pay. And, while it is true that corporations pass the expenditures along, the cost to each of us individually is next to nothing compared to the revenue lost. If that is what it takes to increase revenues to help balance the budget, I'm all for it. UP them taxes and pass the cost along to the rest of us. I'm ready.

[Seraphim]

I agree with your point about the rebates...

The rest....huh?


Which STILL doesn't speak to corporations getting REBATES on taxes they didn't pay. And, while it is true that corporations pass the expenditures along, the cost to each of us individually is next to nothing compared to the revenue lost. If that is what it takes to increase revenues to help balance the budget, I'm all for it. UP them taxes and pass the cost along to the rest of us. I'm ready.

[Anti Federalist]

Which STILL doesn't speak to corporations getting REBATES on taxes they didn't pay. And, while it is true that corporations pass the expenditures along, the cost to each of us individually is next to nothing compared to the revenue lost. If that is what it takes to increase revenues to help balance the budget, I'm all for it. UP them taxes and pass the cost along to the rest of us. I'm ready.

I'm not.

I never wanted any of this, I never agreed to any of this and I'm sure as hell not going to pay for all this.

By this I mean the corporate/government/military/surveillance complex.

Fuck it, let it all go broke.

[MaxPower]

Sematary, I don't think anyone here believes businesses should receive "rebates" or TARP funds. Eliminating such policies would not constitute a "tax increase" any more than the firing of an employee amounts to theft of his hypothetical future wages. However, you do not seem to be drawing the proper distinction, here, between valid profit such as that which companies like ExxonMobil earn by actually selling their product and ill-gotten government largesse; there is a huge difference between revoking corrupt hand-outs ("rebates" or TARP) and coercively appropriating money someone actually earned (as you appear to be advocating, for instance, when you call for an end to the "Bush tax cuts").

[YumYum]

Great post for this forum. Everybody who isn't rich is fed up with the unfair tax system we have in this country. Lurkers who are learning about Ron Paul must feel the same way. So, why are Libertarians and poor Republicans against increased taxes on the uber-rich?

Well, we are all against income tax to begin with, because it is "theft". It infringes on our rights. But, we have to pay them until things are changed; if they are ever changed. In the mean time, we are supposed to just sit and watch rich, greedy people put the burden of the tax system on the rest of us who are struggling? Screw ideology! We live in reality, and the OP has made an excellent observation.

Do you guys, who are against having the rich pay their fair share, really think that the rich love you more for defending them, or that the rich will back Ron Paul because he will end income tax? Hardly! Why? Because, as Sematary pointed out, the rich don't pay taxes.

At some point, there will have to be higher taxes for more revenue. Nobody is paying attention to the ancaps philosophy, so somebody is going to have to pay. And it will be us, the poor, and the ones who are struggling. Why would the rich pay more in taxes, when they don't even pay any in the first place?!?

[Ronulus]

The rich pay their fair share. It just depends on your definition of rich. Every person drawing income from a corporation pays their taxes or is audited by the IRS. A corporation itself can have it's money in reserves, but that money does not directly belong to one person. Once any owner or chairman takes money from the corporation he then pays taxes on that money and it's not some small amount either.

Ending rebates and other government dollars being thrown towards these companies should not be done.

However don't confuse rich people not paying taxes with the corporation itself not paying taxes on it's assets.

[LibertyEagle]

Sematary, I don't think anyone here believes businesses should receive "rebates" or TARP funds. Eliminating such policies would not constitute a "tax increase" any more than the firing of an employee amounts to theft of his hypothetical future wages. However, you do not seem to be drawing the proper distinction, here, between valid profit such as that which companies like ExxonMobil earn by actually selling their product and ill-gotten government largesse; there is a huge difference between revoking corrupt hand-outs ("rebates" or TARP) and coercively appropriating money someone actually earned (as you appear to be advocating, for instance, when you call for an end to the "Bush tax cuts").

^^^^
THIS

And Sematary, what's with this "on the backs of the working class" shit coming from? They are called JOBS. If they don't want them, no one is forcing them to take them. They can go do something else.

[LibertyEagle]

Great post for this forum. Everybody who isn't rich is fed up with the unfair tax system we have in this country. Lurkers who are learning about Ron Paul must feel the same way. So, why are Libertarians and poor Republicans against increased taxes on the uber-rich?

Well, we are all against income tax to begin with, because it is "theft". It infringes on our rights. But, we have to pay them until things are changed; if they are ever changed. In the mean time, we are supposed to just sit and watch rich, greedy people put the burden of the tax system on the rest of us who are struggling? Screw ideology! We live in reality, and the OP has made an excellent observation.

Do you guys, who are against having the rich pay their fair share, really think that the rich love you more for defending them, or that the rich will back Ron Paul because he will end income tax? Hardly! Why? Because, as Sematary pointed out, the rich don't pay taxes.
Define "rich".


At some point, there will have to be higher taxes for more revenue. Nobody is paying attention to the ancaps philosophy, so somebody is going to have to pay. And it will be us, the poor, and the ones who are struggling. Why would the rich pay more in taxes, when they don't even pay any in the first place?!?

I'm for cutting the damn spending and getting rid of all of the government that is not constitutional. Then yes, we will all pay for that very small constitutional government that we agree we need to have.

But hell no, I am not for some kind of stick it to everyone who has more money than I have, mindset. That is pure bullshit. You should know better.

[NewRightLibertarian]

I don't want any more money going to this government no matter who it comes from. Let their terror enterprise go broke.

[headhawg7]

I don't want any more money going to this government no matter who it comes from. Let their terror enterprise go broke.

Yes but how would we bring freedom to the middle east? That's money well spent!!

/sarcasm

[YumYum]

I don't want any more money going to this government no matter who it comes from. Let their terror enterprise go broke.

That's true, but the reality of it all is that while some of us want this all to collapse (the sooner the better, right Kludge?), in the meantime the poor will get stuck with paying more in taxes and the rich will still get away with what the OP pointed out. Look, there are rich people who are honest people, who have worked hard and pay their taxes. I am not talking about them. I am talking about those who don't pay taxes and those rich folks who wanted Bush's wars.


Define "rich".

Well, Liberty Eagle, you are a Christian. According to Jesus it's those people who won't be allowed in Heaven, or will have a very, very, difficult time convincing God to let them in.


"Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Luke 18:25

[Ronulus]

Well, Liberty Eagle, you are a Christian. According to Jesus it's those people who won't be allowed in Heaven, or will have a very, very, difficult time convincing God to let them in.

I find it very hard for you or the government to decide who God will let into heaven based on their riches. If we were to let anyone interpret that passage I would assume you yourself would be among one of those rich that has too much and does not give enough. You have a computer, the internet, I am guessing an AC and electricity to power those things. There are many that do without yet you live luxuriously while they suffer. Perhaps you should be taxed more?

[AlexAmore]

They shouldn't be subsidized, but they should ideally pay very very little. All taxes are gonna do is turn and bite you in the ass with:

1. Higher prices - Apparently you want Exxon to pay high taxes which will double our gas prices at best which hurts the poor and middle class.
2. Higher unemployment - Higher taxes reduces corporations from risk taking, going outside their comfort zone to produce innovation which would require a lot of money and massive amounts of new jobs. Because they are taxed to death, they are afraid of taking risks.
3. Lower wages - Simple. If they have more money they will want to raise the wages for better loyalty and better workers. Better efficiency comes full circle with prices.

Or we can tax them to death and let career politicians with no business experience run our world.

[BamaAla]

Go ahead and raise taxes. The "corporations" will still pay very little while I, as a member of the "rich," will pay the full amount!

[YumYum]

I find it very hard for you or the government to decide who God will let into heaven based on their riches. If we were to let anyone interpret that passage I would assume you yourself would be among one of those rich that has too much and does not give enough. You have a computer, the internet, I am guessing an AC and electricity to power those things. There are many that do without yet you live luxuriously while they suffer. Perhaps you should be taxed more?

You are assuming wrong. I have paid thousands in taxes. And, yes, I will be taxed more, I am counting on it. That is why I am frustrated.

With regards to Jesus condemning the "rich", there are only two groups of people that He condemns: the rich and the religious leaders.

And guess what? Neither of the two groups pays taxes!

[erowe1]

all good ideas but that still doesn't get to MY point - which is that these corporations should be paying taxes and asking them to is NOT un-American, or against the wealthy or any such bs. It is asking them to pay their fair share, instead of asking ACTUAL TAXPAYERS to subsidize their businesses.

I don't know if it's unamerican or not. But asking them to pay taxes is definitely wrong.

The solution to the problem of corporate welfare isn't to impose a new tax that's supposed to make it all better, it's to end corporate welfare.

[aravoth]

The combined wealth of every billionaire in the united states is 1.3 trillion dollars. Even if you seized every asset they had what would you do with it? Fund Medicare for a year? Bomb another country? Write SS checks for another year?

Yippee....

After that then who will you go after?

Taxes are NOT the fucking problem here, the problem is that there is way too much stupid shit to pay for, and not enough money to pay for it. Do you go and get another credit card every time you run out of money? Or do you start cutting back on strippers and booze for a while? Common sense man, save more, spend less, and never buy something you can't afford. It's that simple.

[erowe1]

in the meantime the poor will get stuck with paying more in taxes and the rich will still get away with what the OP pointed out.

The poor don't pay more taxes than the rich. My wife and I came out of our taxes with a sizable net gain each of the past couple years because of our kids. And it looks like that will continue for the foreseeable future. And that's not considering what we've gotten back from the government in other ways.

Poor and rich are relative terms anyway. If you described to anyone a century ago what the poor in America live like today, they'd think the war against poverty had already been won.

[Sematary]

Define "rich".



I'm for cutting the damn spending and getting rid of all of the government that is not constitutional. Then yes, we will all pay for that very small constitutional government that we agree we need to have.

But hell no, I am not for some kind of stick it to everyone who has more money than I have, mindset. That is pure bullshit. You should know better.

I'm with you on constitutional government but reality says that even if we were to receive that, it would take decades to prevent throwing the entire world into chaos (which is what would happen). In the meantime, if people on Social Security have to take a hit then the wealthy should share in the pain - of course, pain is all relative. If someone who makes a more than comfortable living loses a few percent, it might affect their choices as to what investments they make. If someone on social security loses a few percent it will change their choices as to what to put on the table tonight.

[Sematary]

The poor don't pay more taxes than the rich. My wife and I came out of our taxes with a sizable net gain each of the past couple years because of our kids. And it looks like that will continue for the foreseeable future. And that's not considering what we've gotten back from the government in other ways.

Poor and rich are relative terms anyway. If you described to anyone a century ago what the poor in America live like today, they'd think the war against poverty had already been won.

Define what taxes you get back. Own a house? A car? You don't get those taxes back - no matter how much you make. Pay sales taxes? Don't get those back either. So, in MY ideal world, we institute an NST and let everybody pay the same percentage based on comsumption. THAT would be a fair solution

[Sematary]

I'm not.

I never wanted any of this, I never agreed to any of this and I'm sure as hell not going to pay for all this.

By this I mean the corporate/government/military/surveillance complex.

Fuck it, let it all go broke.

You could always move to Chile. I hear it's really nice this time of year.

[Danke]

Corporations do not pay taxes. Shareholders, employees and consumers do.

[Philhelm]

Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS

Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/which-10-giant-corporations-dont-pay-taxes-1587/

This shit REALLY pisses me off. God forbid we should ask the corporations that are raking it in on the backs of the working class to pay their fair share!

Um...nobody should pay taxes...

[dean.engelhardt]

Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS

Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/which-10-giant-corporations-dont-pay-taxes-1587/

This shit REALLY pisses me off. God forbid we should ask the corporations that are raking it in on the backs of the working class to pay their fair share!

This isn't a tax issue; it is a lobbying issue. It isn't a poor/rich tax disparity; it is disparity of those with and without political influence.

My wife and I work hard to make a middle class income, a little above the national average. We get hammered in taxes that really makes our standard of living a lot lower than you would think for our income level. So I'm watching a CNN interview of a student complaining that a delay in raising the debt ceiling will effect the $54,000 in federal aid he is receiving to start his second year of college. Yes $54,000 of money from we taxpayers. But what really burns me is that my 19 year old daughter can't go to a school like this because my family income disqualifies her from any government help. So why are college educations so expensive? Because the US Department of Education subsidizes tuition payment so much. A consumer paying his own way can't compete in a market were the government is giving the politically connect consumer an extra $54,000 year for the same product.

Sorry for the libertarian rant and getting off topic.

[erowe1]

Define what taxes you get back. Own a house? A car? You don't get those taxes back - no matter how much you make. Pay sales taxes? Don't get those back either. So, in MY ideal world, we institute an NST and let everybody pay the same percentage based on comsumption. THAT would be a fair solution

It's not just getting taxes back. It's getting credits above and beyond what we paid. We get a profit from the IRS.

State taxes are another story. But if you want to count everything we pay versus everything we get, we come out on top. The reason is because we're not rich.

And how would a national sales tax be fair to anyone? You sell something to me, and I pay you the amount of money we agree on, and some third party that has nothing whatsoever to do with it gets an additional percentage of that price for them to fund services that I never consented to? Where's the fairness in that?

[teacherone]

Corporations don't pay taxes??? News to me.

A corporation is merely a collection of individuals.

Every individual working for every corporation pays federal income tax and all payroll taxes.

Corporations collect sales taxes for the feds and states which make your goods more expensive.

Many small businesses are incorporated - the owners pay income and payroll taxes, (not to mention all the licenses and mandated insurances etc), and collect sales taxes to send to the state.

You want them to pay an EXTRA tax on profits they managed to make after already being taxed multiple times?

[Ninja Homer]

2 wrongs don't make a right... income taxes shouldn't be legal, and neither should corporations (in their current form).

[Lafayette]

In the meantime, if people on Social Security have to take a hit then the wealthy should share in the pain

But that's just it, they do not have to take a hit.

End the bailouts, the subsidies , the rebates, the grants an all the other bull shit these corporations get.

Add in all the other cuts to our empire, ABC departments, etc.

No raising of anyone's taxes is needed. In fact we could lower them or ideally get rid of them altogether.

Of course this couldnt be done overnight , even Dr Paul says so himself, but no one who is dependent on the system has to take a cut.

[realtonygoodwin]

Can't believe I'm reading this stuff on here.
The rich definitely pay their share. The rich pay the highest percentage, both as a percentage of their income and as a percentage of total revenue.

[AZKing]

Corporate income tax is just a double tax... shareholders pay taxes on their earnings as well.

[Cdn_for_liberty]

here's a video on the myths on the corporate tax


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMZkobeRgxg

[SimpleName]

Corporations do not "pay" anything, they just pass the cost along to the end customer.

Tariffs, that's another story, because that forces investment and jobs back into the country.

Higher corporate income taxes just runs jobs off.

THIS! Domestic corporate taxes are worthless because almost the entirety of any losses are passed to the consumers. Even if they do not pass it directly to the consumer, the more limited resources will lead to lower supply or missed opportunities for higher productivity. And since there will be the same demand, we get higher prices anyway. Or at least thats what the Austrians want me to believe *squints and looks around suspiciously*

[torchbearer]

This shit REALLY pisses me off. God forbid we should ask the corporations that are raking it in on the backs of the working class to pay their fair share!

you can't tax a corporation without taxing yourself.
you put a tax on P&G, P&G will put the tax into the cost of their goods. Meaning you pay the tax, they just collect it.
a corporate tax becomes an indirect sales tax on you.

[messana]

THIS! Domestic corporate taxes are worthless because almost the entirety of any losses are passed to the consumers. Even if they do not pass it directly to the consumer, the more limited resources will lead to lower supply or missed opportunities for higher productivity. And since there will be the same demand, we get higher prices anyway. Or at least thats what the Austrians want me to believe *squints and looks around suspiciously*

But they can't just keep rising prices every time they get a tax increase either. Besides, wouldn't it be more beneficial for smaller competitors if such price subsidies occurred?

[erowe1]

But they can't just keep rising prices every time they get a tax increase either.

The alternative is going out of business, which, it's true, does happen from time to time.

[sofia]

who let the commie troll in here????

The Feds rake in more than 200 billion a month and he's bitchin about corporate "loopholes"??

[DamianTV]

Its still pretty sad that someone on unemployment pays more in Federal Taxes than Exxon or Bank of America. And they wonder why they have a Congress full of Tea Party Representatives. Jeez, how did that happen?

[erowe1]

someone on unemployment pays more in Federal Taxes than Exxon or Bank of America.

Who?

[Fredom101]

Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS

Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/which-10-giant-corporations-dont-pay-taxes-1587/

This shit REALLY pisses me off. God forbid we should ask the corporations that are raking it in on the backs of the working class to pay their fair share!

"Fair share" is an illusion that the government creates.
There is no fair share. No one should have to pay the government in order to live.
Let's get away from this mindset. All of these companies you mentioned are corporations, or, wings of the state. They couldn't operate as they do in a free market.

Give us freedom, not "fairness".

[messana]

The alternative is going out of business, which, it's true, does happen from time to time.

Only if your a small or honest business. Businesses that are making record profits don't really apply.

[bwlibertyman]

I don't understand the hatred of oil companies. The government gets more from gas taxes then the oil companies get in profits. If you want to complain why not complain about the government?

[Acala]

"Fair share" is an illusion that the government creates.
There is no fair share. No one should have to pay the government in order to live.
Let's get away from this mindset. All of these companies you mentioned are corporations, or, wings of the state. They couldn't operate as they do in a free market.

Give us freedom, not "fairness".

Nice!!!

I am no advocate of the corporate business form. I think government sanction of the corporation should be eliminated along with all other government intervention in the economy. And corporate welfare and bailouts are not even worth mentioning on this forum. Everyone here is agin 'em.

BUT complaining that "they don't pay their share" is socialist BS. The problem is not, and has never been, that some group is not paying their share of taxes. No level of taxation will EVER fill the bottomless pit of unlimited government. And THAT is the mission, folks - put the monster of runaway government back in the cage. Not blame your neighbor. Ignore the distraction and work the root of the problem.

[erowe1]

Only if your a small or honest business. Businesses that are making record profits don't really apply.

The laws of economics still apply to large businesses. Leave them to the free market, and their competition with one another will drive their profits toward zero. They won't be able just to take on some new additional cost without making some kind of accommodation for it.