My View of the Homeless Has Changed Since I Became Liberty Minded

[AGRP]

Anyone else?

I used to hold a certain kind of contempt for the homeless. Because they were all alkis or lazy, the typical problems why people dont like them, but since Ive saturated myself in the liberty philosophy even my views on the homeless has changed. If anything, my contempt for them has virtually disappeared.

Theres help for them if they want it. If they dont want it, fine.

[dannno]

No, I was a green/libertarian before coming into the movement so I didn't think government welfare was a healthy way to deal with homeless but as I learned more leftists propaganda I came to realize that they got a raw deal. So I was kind of at the point where I thought they needed something, but I knew from my years of listening to Rush Limbaugh and libertarians that the system we have today to take care of the poor is really bad. So I didn't really know what to do to help them.

Then thanks to Ron Paul I learned exactly where they got their raw deal, from the Federal Reserve and big government. Problem solved.

[Suzu]

Anyone else?

I used to hold a certain kind of contempt for the homeless. Because they were all alkis or lazy, the typical problems why people dont like them, but since Ive saturated myself in the liberty philosophy even my views on the homeless has changed. If anything, my contempt for them has virtually disappeared.

Theres help for them if they want it. If they dont want it, fine.

My view changed when I became homeless myself, in 1988, and lived in a vehicle for the next ten years. I met lots and lots of folks living the same way. It was quite an adventure. I did spend varying lengths of time in more or less the same location.

BTW: Is your apostrophe key on the fritz?

[pcosmar]

My view has never changed, and I have been one. It is not a crime to be free.

[fisharmor]

My view has never changed, and I have been one. It is not a crime to be free.

Since my previous view on society got smashed a couple years ago, it does seem like some homeless folks got it all figured out.
:D

[Brian4Liberty]

Depends on what you mean by "homeless". People insist on mixing apples and oranges together when discussing this subject.

In San Francisco, the city is almost ruined due to the drug/alcohol/schizophrenics who wander the streets harassing people, covered in filth, using the streets as a bathroom, panhandling even in private businesses, where owners are forced to constantly shoo them away. The term "homeless" should not be applied to them. They are bums.

[Working Poor]

Keep in mind that many of the homeless are vets many of them were wounded in which ever war they fought.Also a large portion are mentally ill and the meds given to mentally ill patients have horrendous side effects which makes them not want to take them. I gladly give them money when ever I see them on corners holding signs if I have any.

I know several people who come from very wealthy families who just can't conform to society and prefer to live on the streets and stay off their meds but their families still support them because they do not have the heart for them to be institutionalized.

I think many homeless people are following their idea of freedom too at least if they can stay out of the police's radar they can usually get what they need.The people you see standing on corners collecting money often share the money with several others.


People who are different for whatever reason get treated bad in society. But, just remember they are still God's children too if you ever feel contempt for them.

[RCA]

Keep in mind that many of the homeless are vets many of them were wounded in which ever war they fought.Also a large portion are mentally ill and the meds given to mentally ill patients have horrendous side effects which makes them not want to take them. I gladly give them money when ever I see them on corners holding signs if I have any.

You do realize a large portion of those "sign-holders" are scam artists don't you? If you wanted to contribute to actual homeless why not volunteer at a homeless shelter or give them money instead.

[pcosmar]

You do realize a large portion of those "sign-holders" are scam artists don't you? If you wanted to contribute to actual homeless why not volunteer at a homeless shelter or give them money instead.

When I was homeless I avoided the "shelters" like the plague. Occasionally using a shower there, but that is it. It was better to wash up in an open restroom when you could find one.

If you want to help them,,get to know them.
Give them some work, if they are able. or buy them a meal rather than giving them money.

[YumYum]

Depends on what you mean by "homeless". People insist on mixing apples and oranges together when discussing this subject.

In San Francisco, the city is almost ruined due to the drug/alcohol/schizophrenics who wander the streets harassing people, covered in filth, using the streets as a bathroom, panhandling even in private businesses, where owners are forced to constantly shoo them away. The term "homeless" should not be applied to them. They are bums.

Same thing in Nashville. The place is crawling with bums. Sam, at "Sam's Sushi" would give them free sodas, but they would clean him out and he had to stop. I always would give something to the homeless, until a guy reached in my truck and took the money out of my ashtray. There are homeless people I have talked to that are down on their luck; have gone through horrible times and need help. There are also the scam artists like you mentioned, who have given the homeless a bad name. One day, there will be no homeless. They will all be camping at FEMA.

[AGRP]

I give to the working poor. They are my charity.

I love giving tips to the people who make my coffee. Even people at fast food joints sincerely appreciate tips.

[Seraphim]

Agreed. This is the best way IMHO.


I give to the working poor. They are my charity.

I love giving tips to the people who make my coffee. Even people at fast food joints sincerely appreciate tips.

[JamesButabi]

Agreed. This is the best way IMHO.

+1. I tip working people making low wages. I encourage hard work and good service on any level.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

Sometimes and envy the homeless.

[pcosmar]

Sometimes and envy the homeless.

Sometimes I miss it.

[MozoVote]

I tried to tip a bagger at Wal*Mart once, and was told they are prohibited from taking tips!

[Working Poor]

You do realize a large portion of those "sign-holders" are scam artists don't you? If you wanted to contribute to actual homeless why not volunteer at a homeless shelter or give them money instead.

Many of them are not as well if they are scamming or can pull themselves up then so be it I do not care in fact more power to them at least they have a job.


I tried to tip a bagger at Wal*Mart once, and was told they are prohibited from taking tips!

Well hopefully they found some cash in the parking lot that some one dropped.

[trey4sports]

I always give money to the homeless. Some folks have really fucked their lives up, and while we shouldn't be forced at gunpoint to provide for them, i do believe i have a moral responsibility to help those who need the help.

[nicoleeann]

My boyfriend was homeless for a while and he lived in the woods hunting and fishing for his own food. i have to say that it really impressed me when i found out that he would rather live in a leanto than be on welfare. i really respect him for that.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

I work right next to a public library. Homeless people like to hang around there and bum cigs. I go out there and smoke sometimes. One guy I talk to smelled like shit, had no teeth, and looked like he was ran down. But I had a 30 min conversation with the guy and it was the most indepth convo I ever had. This man knew exactly what to expect out of life, and just seemed at peace. Said he was about to catch a ride to Arizona in a few to see whats goin on out there.

[nobody's_hero]

I try to offer food before offering cash, 'cause I've been scammed before.

If I buy someone a biscuit at Burger King, I have a pretty good idea of what they're going to do with the biscuit. However, if I give someone a dollar to buy a biscuit at Burger King and walk away, I can't be sure what they'll do with the dollar.

[brandon]

I've never had anything but sympathy for them. Almost all of the chronically homeless people have some debilitating mental illness. If they didn't have the illness they would be able to do the paperwork to get subsidized housing and welfare. Or more likely they would be able to support themselves.


The people I have contempt for are those on long term welfare because they are too lazy or irresponsible to ever do anything better.

[pcosmar]

I've never had anything but sympathy for them. Almost all of the chronically homeless people have some debilitating mental illness. If they didn't have the illness they would be able to do the paperwork to get subsidized housing and welfare. Or more likely they would be able to support themselves.


The people I have contempt for are those on long term welfare because they are too lazy or irresponsible to ever do anything better.

People make choices for many reasons.
I have been homeless, met my wife when I was living on the streets of Portland Or.
We have 20 acres today.

I posted about an artist in another thread, he has lived free as long as I have known him.
http://www.monkeytom.org/

Not all are bums (some are) Not all are mentally ill (Some are)
Not all are any one thing. They are people.


About Tom

Tom Forshier first came to Key West in 1965. His driftwood art has been haled as genius by collectors, but he still struggles daily to find the bare necessities. And yet, he is nobody’s victim. His life is of his own choosing and has its own integrity. As Robin Shanley wrote in 1992, “For someone so extensively displayed it’s hard to believe Tom is just barely making it these days. He is a man of great strengths and formidable weaknesses and much has been his fault.”

But, his animals never want for food, his ever-changing abodes are not as disorganized as they first appear. Closer inspection reveals that every found object has been transformed into art, either by altering its appearance, or simply by placement and context in the space.

The room he lives in is a collage. It is clean; but, it will be gone inside a year and he will once again search for a new home. This has been a pattern for over forty years. Tom has lived in boats, under lobster pots, in an abandoned wheel house, wherever he can carve out a small place to sleep and paint.

Like a fox, he finds a den and makes it his own. But, times are changing – he’s moved from Key West to neighboring Stock Island where he pays a small rent for 1/3 of a trailer destined for removal as this area too becomes developed. Where he will go next is anybody’s guess. But Tom has loyal long-time friends. It is our hope that this website will help to keep him connected with them; through those he sees daily on Stock Island and those who have moved to other parts of the world but haven’t forgotten him.

He has regularly been the subject of newspaper and magazine stories over the years, as new journalists discover him and strive to convey the unique character that is Tom.

[BlackTerrel]

I give to the working poor. They are my charity.

I love giving tips to the people who make my coffee. Even people at fast food joints sincerely appreciate tips.

This. Tipping = good karma

[Brian4Liberty]

However, if I give someone a dollar to buy a biscuit at Burger King and walk away, I can't be sure what they'll do with the dollar.

They don't want food. Food is readily available for free. They want cash for their favorite vice.

[Brian4Liberty]

The people I have contempt for are those on long term welfare because they are too lazy or irresponsible to ever do anything better.

Being very familiar with this type of situation, I still can't give a definitive answer. Are these people lazy, or do they have mental disability that they are very good at covering up? Who would choose to live like that if they didn't have to?

[SWATH]

Sometimes I feel compelled to help depending on the person. Most of the time no. If they won't even take care of themselves why should I bother doing it for them?

[AGRP]

Sometimes I feel compelled to help depending on the person. Most of the time no. If they won't even take care of themselves why should I bother doing it for them?

I will go out of my way to tip people who provide good music, who happen to look homeless.

Theres a lot of talented street performers.

[Anti Federalist]

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/net_worth.jpg

[CasualApathy]

I often give money to homeless people who approach me on the street, even though I know that the money will probably not be spent on food. I guess I just feel sorry for them... I have a very hard time understanding this romantic view of being homeless though, maybe someone can enlighten me? Why would you want to live on the street in all kinds of weather, why wouldn't you want the comfort of a home and a proper bed? More to the point, why wouldn't you want to be able to provide for a family? Seems like a big price to pay for your "freedom". (you're not really free if you're forced to live at the very bottom of society are you?)

EDIT: Not to mention the adverse effects on your health, the much larger risk of being subjected to crime and police harassment?

[brandon]

Being very familiar with this type of situation, I still can't give a definitive answer. Are these people lazy, or do they have mental disability that they are very good at covering up? Who would choose to live like that if they didn't have to?


Ahh that's a very good point Brian. I'm sure many of them have lesser mental illnesses, such as chronic anxiety, depression, and low self esteem. And perhaps many of them came from parents with similar problems, so they never really learned how to be successful in America's cutthroat economy. I think I spoke a bit too quickly when I said I have contempt for them, because I really don't. It just frustrates me to see people not living up to all I think they could be.

And I don't mean to come across as if I'm looking down on any of them. I've struggled with similar problems to a lesser degree.

[ghengis86]

my view has definitely changed. I had nothing but contempt for the poor and homeless. I was a immature, middle class prick who forgot where he came from (my parents were dirt floor poor and paid my hospital bills at birth with a load of hogs). I thought they were just lazy bums.

I think it's reported that 1/3 of the homeless are veterans. I don't know if this overlaps or not (most likely), but almost half of the homeless have some sort of mental illness. No doubt being in the armed forces and being trained to kill other humans causes some synapses to go haywire. I'd guess that there are a good percentage (10-20%) that have shit for luck and wound up pennyless. I'd also guess that there are a good percentage that got dinged for some victimless crime or got chewed up through the 'justice' system and are blackballed by society.

I have much more compassion now for people living on the street. sure, there are scammers out there, but they're easy to spot and avoid. even if they do get a free burger off you, so what? they at least got a free meal and conversation from someone who gives a shit about people. you never know what your random act of kindness can produce. you can do someone wonders just by giving them a shower, a meal, a shirt, whatever. I wish I would give more than I do, wish I could make the right decision everytime I see someone panhandling, but I sometimes pretend like I don't see them and keep on my way.

Also, I tend to think that even if you do a good deed for a lazy bumb who just won't help him/her self, they act of compassion in itself is enough to show them that good people do exist.

[thehungarian]

Fuck the homeless. Oh yes. Most of the homeless have the same access to unemployment benefits that everyone else does. Those that don't can sleep in their wonderful vehicles or live with their parents. I really don't have sympathy for those that choose to live on the street. I have done so myself for a short period of time, but it was terribly hot out and I sweat like a demon - please feel sorry for me. It was two full days.

Homeless people have the same access to jobs and food and shelter that everyone else has. Shave your 6-day growth and look presentable.

[ghengis86]

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/net_worth.jpg

brilliant

[CasualApathy]

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/net_worth.jpg

It's sorta misleading, the homeless guy still has the lowest net worth. The reason the other people in the drawing have even been able to get in debt is that they've worked hard and acquired skills making themselves and their future work valuable as capital. No one is going to loan money to a homeless person as he is completely worthless to society (in a practical sense).

[Brian4Liberty]

Ahh that's a very good point Brian. I'm sure many of them have lesser mental illnesses, such as chronic anxiety, depression, and low self esteem. And perhaps many of them came from parents with similar problems, so they never really learned how to be successful in America's cutthroat economy. I think I spoke a bit too quickly when I said I have contempt for them, because I really don't. It just frustrates me to see people not living up to all I think they could be.


One of the coinciding problems with chronic "laziness" is that the knowledge that there is a safety net reinforces their root problem. Charity and handouts actually make some people's problems worse. What I was getting at is that only a certain percentage of the population has this mental disorder, but our current society actually hurts them and does not help them. Some people seem normal, yet they have issues that make working difficult. At that point, it is easier to cover up those disabilities and take charity. It's like giving a person with an addictive personality more drugs. It does them more harm than good.

[Brian4Liberty]

It's sorta misleading, the homeless guy still has the lowest net worth. The reason the other people in the drawing have even been able to get in debt is that they've worked hard and acquired skills making themselves and their future work valuable as capital. No one is going to loan money to a homeless person as he is completely worthless to society (in a practical sense).

And where are the million dollar mortgages? (For those of us in the high rent areas).

[ghengis86]

One of the coinciding problems with chronic "laziness" is that the knowledge that there is a safety net reinforces their root problem. Charity and handouts actually make some people's problems worse. What I was getting at is that only a certain percentage of the population has this mental disorder, but our current society actually hurts them and does not help them. Some people seem normal, yet they have issues that make working difficult. At that point, it is easier to cover up those disabilities and take charity. It's like giving a person with an addictive personality more drugs. It does them more harm than good.

i guess i would argue, "so what"? the people with the drive will pull themselves up and the lazy bums will not. who cares? you're still being charitable no matter what they do with it. if you're concerned that they're pissing away your charity, then maybe you're not being charitable for the right reasons; it's for them, not you. I completely understand your point, but just trying to give you another way to look at it. take it for what it's worth (like every other bit of adive you get on the intertubes)

[CasualApathy]

And where are the million dollar mortgages? (For those of us in the high rent areas).

That doesn't really matter to the point I was making. Any amount of debt a person is able to accumulate in a free market is based on an expectation that the person will be able to re-pay it. Basically you're able to get a loan to buy that house because you would have been able to save up enough money to pay for it in cash at some point in the future anyway, the bank just helps you skip the saving up and lets you do that after the fact, while also making a profit on the loan of course.

[brandon]

That doesn't really matter to the point I was making. Any amount of debt a person is able to accumulate in a free market is based on an expectation that the person will be able to re-pay it. Basically you're able to get a loan to buy that house because you would have been able to save up enough money to pay for it in cash at some point in the future anyway, the bank just helps you skip the saving up and lets you do that after the fact, while making a profit on the loan.

Agreed, but free markets are fairy tales in modern times. Government back student loans and mortgages result in many people receiving loans far exceeding their credit worthiness.

[CasualApathy]

Agreed, but free markets are fairy tales in modern times. Government back student loans and mortgages result in many people receiving loans far exceeding their credit worthiness.

True, that's why I premised my argument that way ;)

[SWATH]

I will go out of my way to tip people who provide good music, who happen to look homeless.

Theres a lot of talented street performers.

Yes if they are making an effort to "earn" some charity that's ok but I guess I would rather be charitable to a person fighting a disease or an amputee struggling to live life than a lazy drunk bum with a sign. I was asked for some change in DC once, although the guy did not look homeless at all I reached in my pocket and pulled out some change. I gave him all of it but kept a quarter because I thought I might need it for a parking meter. The fucker got pissed that I didn't give him the quarter too and called me a few names after I told him I needed it. I wished I hadn't given that piece of shit anything, but that was a rare occurrence as most people are grateful if you give them anything. Another guy in a suit gave me a story about how he was on his way to bla bla bla to help his bla bla bla and his car broke down and he needed some bus fare or whatever. I gave him some because he seemed genuine and if nothing else he put a lot of effort into BSing me. I saw him hustling for change for the next few nights in the same place.

[Brian4Liberty]

i guess i would argue, "so what"? the people with the drive will pull themselves up and the lazy bums will not. who cares? you're still being charitable no matter what they do with it. if you're concerned that they're pissing away your charity, then maybe you're not being charitable for the right reasons; it's for them, not you. I completely understand your point, but just trying to give you another way to look at it. take it for what it's worth (like every other bit of adive you get on the intertubes)

Unfortunately, charity is now collected at the point of an IRS gun, and a huge cut is taken by the crony corporatists, before the remainder is given out to destroy the lives of those with the disorders in the first place.

[LibertasPraesidium]

Great discussion about homelessness, good insights, If I see someone who is homeless and have the spare cash I just buy the alcohol for them and give them a sandwich as well. More often than not they offer me a drink on the spot. :-)

[Brian4Liberty]

if you're concerned that they're pissing away your charity, then maybe you're not being charitable for the right reasons; it's for them, not you.

That's what I tell people all the time. If you give something, you have given it away, and it is gone. Don't look at charity any different than throwing something in the garbage.

[pcosmar]

:(

at many responses.
:(
at the collectivism.
:(
At the assumption and judgment of a person you know nothing about.

As much as I hate welfare, i understand that many people were raised up in it or with it. And that most charity has been replaced by it.
I also understand that each person is an individual, and the circumstances and choices are unique to that person.
And also that ones position presently,,,can be changed.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

I always tried to help out when I could over the years to people who were obviously homeless. The real eye-opener for me was becoming homeless myself last year and spending about 2 months living in my car. If it hadn't been for very good friends, who have given me more charity than my family, I would still be living in my car. As such, I'm preparing for it again (sold my Buick to my friend, gonna be buying his truck and looking for a used camper top). Preparation for truly shit-hitting-the-fan living is a smart idea in my opinion. At least with a camper-top truck you will be sleeping in a proper position (sleeping in a car can truly fuck you up over time).

And let me tell you, the myth about welfare being easily accessible is just that, a myth. Food stamps are easy, but welfare (as in cash assistance) not. Unemployment is even harder (I tried after getting laid off last year).

[Working Poor]

I try to offer food before offering cash, 'cause I've been scammed before.

If I buy someone a biscuit at Burger King, I have a pretty good idea of what they're going to do with the biscuit. However, if I give someone a dollar to buy a biscuit at Burger King and walk away, I can't be sure what they'll do with the dollar.

Then you give with expectation added to it. Learning to give without expecting your results is real giving.WHen you give to others who are not homeless do you have expectations attached to it as well?

[Suzu]

The real eye-opener for me was becoming homeless myself last year and spending about 2 months living in my car. If it hadn't been for very good friends, who have given me more charity than my family, I would still be living in my car. As such, I'm preparing for it again (sold my Buick to my friend, gonna be buying his truck and looking for a used camper top). Preparation for truly shit-hitting-the-fan living is a smart idea in my opinion. At least with a camper-top truck you will be sleeping in a proper position (sleeping in a car can truly fuck you up over time).

What you really need to be comfortable is an Econoline cargo van. Check this post (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?301958-I-live-in-a-van-down-by-Duke-University-%28How-to-live-within-your-means-today%29&p=3381543&viewfull=1#post3381543) that I made recently about being very comfortable in such a van.

[UtahApocalypse]

I was homeless. Off and on for over 3 years. I learned a lot about the homeless population. I also learned a lot about how government welfare has stifled getting any help.

[Anti Federalist]

It's sorta misleading, the homeless guy still has the lowest net worth. The reason the other people in the drawing have even been able to get in debt is that they've worked hard and acquired skills making themselves and their future work valuable as capital. No one is going to loan money to a homeless person as he is completely worthless to society (in a practical sense).

http://www.tiricosuave.com/images/economicallyviable.jpg

[Brian4Liberty]

At the assumption and judgment of a person you know nothing about.

I also understand that each person is an individual, and the circumstances and choices are unique to that person.


Of course. People are individuals and there are many different categories. As I said in my first post, there's a huge difference between bums and what should be categorized as "homeless".

My personal opinions have been shaped by actually trying to help some of these people. I have had a 4 person homeless family briefly living in my living room. They would have stayed, laying on my couch and watching TV forever. After actually getting the head of the family a job, he just refused to go to work. "thanks for the hospitality, time to move on to the next place to crash".

There are patterns that emerge when dealing with the chronically "homeless/helpless". Excess charity and welfare actually destroys people, it doesn't help them. The path of least resistance leads to permanent dependence on charity. It applies even more to international aid. Many people come back from "missions" to find that charity money destroys people and nations, and props up corrupt organizations and governments.

[pcosmar]

Of course. People are individuals and there are many different categories. As I said in my first post, there's a huge difference between bums and what should be categorized as "homeless".


It is true,for the homeless that there are many categories.
Not all are just lazy bums. In fact, I know lazy bums that have homes and jobs.
I also know homeless that work when able, (Day labor, odd jobs). Hardly lazy, but without a drive or desire for wealth.
Some simply want to avoid the entanglements of Taxes and Government intrusions.
Or having to put up with people they don't care to, so they keep to themselves.
Some are looking to escape. Bad Marriage, Legal entanglements, overbearing family or just responsibility.
Some had all those. I have known some that walked away from a Home and profession and wealth,, to find freedom.

I have also known folks that have grown up in the welfare state and been taught to work the system from their youth. They know no other way.

Folks are all different and the homeless as well. I just can't lump them all together base on a few.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

What you really need to be comfortable is an Econoline cargo van.

That occurred to me as well. The biggest thing will be the money and time it will take to convert (as well as finding a used cargo van for $1000 or less that isn't a rolling wreck). I know that a number of websites that discuss van living offer tips and such. The stealth factor is a plus compared to an RV/truck camper. I had the misfortune of having the fucking Temple Terrace Police called on me, twice, while living in my car. First when I was at the public library (I had apparently spooked one or more of the library workers by being there before they opened). Second was while sleeping in the Burger King parking lot where my friend worked at the time. I avoided getting on the radar the first time (refused to give my information) but had to give my license and registration the second time. Thankfully, the cop didn't write me up for not having insurance on the car.

And yes, the fact the fucking cops bug you sucks. This is especially bothersome when you are staying on 'public' land that your fucking taxes pay.

[affa]

I try to offer food before offering cash, 'cause I've been scammed before.

If I buy someone a biscuit at Burger King, I have a pretty good idea of what they're going to do with the biscuit. However, if I give someone a dollar to buy a biscuit at Burger King and walk away, I can't be sure what they'll do with the dollar.

Who cares what they do with the dollar? If they are an alcoholic, it's quite possible they physically need alcohol more than they need food. Once you give them a dollar, they are free to use it how they see fit. And that's a good thing.

If I have extra money in my pocket, and someone is a) in need and b) non-aggressive, I give them a buck or two. The 'scam artist' is mostly a myth - the vast majority of people spanging actually need money. If they use that for food or shelter, great. If they buy a beer, so be it. If I have extra food, I'll offer them that.

There ARE overly aggressive homeless. Ignore them. But help those in need, where you can. And if you have the time, talk to them too. They're people. Real, live, living, breathing, thinking people. Some just have been extremely messed up by society, others are avoiding the grid, others are homeless by accident, others have mental issues, and some have just had/have severe drug addictions.

EDITED TO ADD: it's a shame to see some people so hostile against the homeless. it is absolutely unfair to write off an entire segment of society because you had a bad experience with a few individuals. It's like writing off all stores because of a single jerky clerk, or all repair shops because one guy ripped you off. It's a load of hogwash. Many homeless are simply that - homeless, for a variety of reasons. Why judge them harshly simply because of their circumstances and what you assume their personality might be? Is someone who got their job because their dad owned a store, or inherited a fortune, or sleeps on the job, or won the freaking lottery any better just because they have a house, and therefore are more 'presentable'?

[libertybrewcity]

If it wasn't so hard to sell stuff I think most homeless people would have a job. If you go to South American countries (and probably most other countries) everyone is selling something. Everyone makes some money even if it selling packs of gum or cigarettes or whatever.

[steph3n]

Give them some work, if they are able. or buy them a meal rather than giving them money.

I think this is key, even if a small chore job, those that are willing to work are legit and their need is genuine.
About shelters, I'd try to avoid them as well if I were homeless, because most of the time if you hang around the same people long enough you become more like them, and many of those that have been there for years no longer even have a desire to better themselves anymore. They just come for the next handout.

I have housed a homeless man once, I wouldn't say the overall experience was positive, as many bad habits are gained, but at the same time it was incredibly eye opening.

I was also surprised to learn about some of the people that helped the local homeless the most being the bar/club owners, and trying to find them jobs around the place continually to make a bit of money.

[steph3n]

If it wasn't so hard to sell stuff I think most homeless people would have a job. If you go to South American countries (and probably most other countries) everyone is selling something. Everyone makes some money even if it selling packs of gum or cigarettes or whatever.
Ever been to a street corner in South florida? They are selling Churros, Water, roses, key limes, oddly peeled oranges all the time here.

[BamaAla]

Hmm, interesting question. I've never known a homeless person and there aren't any in my neck of the woods. I'm sure there are some in B'ham, but the only time I go there I'm visiting friends that live in gated neighborhoods in Hoover. I've seen homeless people in my travels, but I have never interacted with them other than throwing them a dollar or a euro. I know plenty of "poor" people just no "homeless" people.

I suppose my opinion of them is neutral. I imagine that most could improve their situation if they wanted, but who's to say they want to?

[Jace]

..

[osan]

Anyone else?

Unchanged.

Some are homeless through no fault of their own.

Some are there by virtue of their poor choices.

Some are there because they chose to be there.

I have met a few in each category.

[Paul Or Nothing II]

My boyfriend was homeless for a while and he lived in the woods hunting and fishing for his own food. i have to say that it really impressed me when i found out that he would rather live in a leanto than be on welfare. i really respect him for that.

I'd've respect for him too; it'd've been very easy for most people in his position to just take the handout that's been offered to him by government robbing someone else but he didn't do that :cool:


I try to offer food before offering cash, 'cause I've been scammed before.

If I buy someone a biscuit at Burger King, I have a pretty good idea of what they're going to do with the biscuit. However, if I give someone a dollar to buy a biscuit at Burger King and walk away, I can't be sure what they'll do with the dollar.

I agree. It's better to give them food or offer them a job than just throwing money at them without concern for what they might do with it.


People make choices for many reasons.
I have been homeless, met my wife when I was living on the streets of Portland Or.
We have 20 acres today.

Fantastic. You've come a long way :)


i guess i would argue, "so what"? the people with the drive will pull themselves up and the lazy bums will not. who cares? you're still being charitable no matter what they do with it. if you're concerned that they're pissing away your charity, then maybe you're not being charitable for the right reasons; it's for them, not you. I completely understand your point, but just trying to give you another way to look at it. take it for what it's worth (like every other bit of adive you get on the intertubes)


Yes if they are making an effort to "earn" some charity that's ok but I guess I would rather be charitable to a person fighting a disease or an amputee struggling to live life than a lazy drunk bum with a sign. I was asked for some change in DC once, although the guy did not look homeless at all I reached in my pocket and pulled out some change. I gave him all of it but kept a quarter because I thought I might need it for a parking meter. The fucker got pissed that I didn't give him the quarter too and called me a few names after I told him I needed it. I wished I hadn't given that piece of shit anything, but that was a rare occurrence as most people are grateful if you give them anything. Another guy in a suit gave me a story about how he was on his way to bla bla bla to help his bla bla bla and his car broke down and he needed some bus fare or whatever. I gave him some because he seemed genuine and if nothing else he put a lot of effort into BSing me. I saw him hustling for change for the next few nights in the same place.

I agree, the money would better spent rather than on some lazy drunk bum.


Then you give with expectation added to it. Learning to give without expecting your results is real giving.WHen you give to others who are not homeless do you have expectations attached to it as well?


Who cares what they do with the dollar? If they are an alcoholic, it's quite possible they physically need alcohol more than they need food. Once you give them a dollar, they are free to use it how they see fit. And that's a good thing.

I don't agree that we shouldn't care about where our money is going, it seems like a religious rhetoric like some people think they're securing themselves a place in heaven or something :rolleyes: by merely giving money away to others so they don't care how that money will be spent.

We SHOULD care, especially people on this forum, who understand economics a lot better than most people & so it has to be understood that the money given away could've been better spent, on a better cause than just giving it away & not caring about what it'll be used for. The purpose of giving SHOULD be to make a positive contribution to the society so if we're giving money away & that's being used to buy drugs or alcohol or knives or whatever then it is NOT making a positive contribution.

As others have said, it's better to give them food, BEST thing though would be to get them a job if possible, otherwise the money could be better spent on someone who's willing to "earn" it (street performers, etc) & work for it or it could be spent on amputees & older people who'd find it hard to work by themselves & giving them food would be the best thing.

I've spent many years in India, & beggar-mafia almost has an industry of its own whereby criminal gangs capture poor people, especially children (because people tend to be more likely to give to begging children or women holding young babies) & force them to beg & most of what they get through begging is then taken by the mafia criminals. Even though it's pretty poor country, a lot of the people in India give to beggars & homeless people with an eye on heaven :rolleyes: & a lot of them give away MONEY & that essentially incentivizes these mafia to capture & enslave the poor, especially poor children. If only, most of the Indian people started giving ONLY foodstuff away & NOT money then that'd pretty much end the incentive for criminals to hold these poor people hostage like this.

So the point is that it DOES matter as to what is being done with our money or where it's going when we give it away; we can't just say, we gave it away & now it's none of our concern, it SHOULD be because as I've said, the purpose of giving should be to make a positive contribution to society & we should try our best to ensure that.

[pcosmar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GOkc6aEfkM

There is nothing new under the sun.

[MozoVote]

There can be interesting "quasi" stages of homelessness.

A few decades ago I rented a room at an inn in the Sierras for a few weeks. The innkeeper was quite proud of his place, he showed me all the rooms there, and for some reason showed me the basement where the furnace was. The building was heated by old cardboard and wood scrap that a couple of transients found in the nearby town, and they were allowed to sleep under the building for free.

[affa]

So the point is that it DOES matter as to what is being done with our money or where it's going when we give it away; we can't just say, we gave it away & now it's none of our concern, it SHOULD be because as I've said, the purpose of giving should be to make a positive contribution to society & we should try our best to ensure that.

But it's not your money anymore. Telling someone else how to spend their money after you've given it to them is restricting their freedom.

What you're suggesting is not giving your money, but essentially selling it. That is, in exchange for your $1 they must now go do X. In this case, X='buy food'. If you're truly giving money away, it's no longer yours, period.

As to those who think homeless people should 'just get a job'... have you ever tried to get a job when you don't have a clean set of cloths, or a address to write down on a job application? It's not particularly easy. Heck, I know more than a few well dressed, well educated people that can't get jobs right now that are lucky to have family that can keep them off the streets.

[pcosmar]

I


Fantastic. You've come a long way :)



Ya think, There are times that I regret much of it.
There are times i could just walk away,,,
and that may become necessary one day.

I do often miss the freedom.

[Paul Or Nothing II]

But it's not your money anymore. Telling someone else how to spend their money after you've given it to them is restricting their freedom.

What you're suggesting is not giving your money, but essentially selling it. That is, in exchange for your $1 they must now go do X. In this case, X='buy food'. If you're truly giving money away, it's no longer yours, period.

As to those who think homeless people should 'just get a job'... have you ever tried to get a job when you don't have a clean set of cloths, or a address to write down on a job application? It's not particularly easy. Heck, I know more than a few well dressed, well educated people that can't get jobs right now that are lucky to have family that can keep them off the streets.

I'm NOT saying that we should TELL anyone what to do, I'm suggesting that we NOT give cash/coins if we really want to help, just buy food & give it to them. I'm the initial owner so I can buy the food & give that to them because that's what I want to give & I've listed reasons why so there's NOTHING anti-freedom with it.

Please read my post again & the part regarding India, just giving money away recklessly to anyone without caring for what they might use it for does very little good, if the purpose of giving is to make a positive contribution to society & NOT so that you secure a place in heaven :rolleyes:

[Brian4Liberty]

Well, he's not homeless:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XA2UUpXRk