It's official: the US is now a police state

[Anti Federalist]

Over the twenty five years or so that I've been in the trenches of the "liberty movement", the warnings about becoming a "police state" have been tossed out with feverish regularity. Sadly, it would appear those warnings were ignored.

Now, however, we are here.

No hyperbole, no overheated rhetoric, just a simple statement of fact:

We live in a police state.

The laws are innumerable, uncountable and unknowable, as the following article points out, punishment from the state's enforcers is meted out arbitrarily and with increasing violence, "extra legal" punishment, up to and including torture and execution along with suspension of key criminal and civil rights and removal from your native country are now accepted as settled law.

I'm going to post the money quote from the following Wall Street Journal article:


"There is no one in the United States over the age of 18 who cannot be indicted for some federal crime," said John Baker, a retired Louisiana State University law professor who has also tried counting the number of new federal crimes created in recent years. "That is not an exaggeration."

Show that to your short sighted friends and family who say, "Well, if you have nothing to hide, what are you worried about?"

As the surveillance grid grows, as the noose gets tighter, look for more and more of those same friends and family to become "unpeople": whisked off in some 2 am raid for God knows what, sent to God knows where, possibly to never be seen again or to join the ranks of the largest prison population in the world, or, in a worse case scenario that is becoming all too common, just summarily executed by the cops on scene.

All right here in the land of the free.




Many Failed Efforts to Count Nation's Federal Criminal Laws

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304319804576389601079728920.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

By GARY FIELDS and JOHN R. EMSHWILLER

WASHINGTON—For decades, the task of counting the total number of federal criminal laws has bedeviled lawyers, academics and government officials.

"You will have died and resurrected three times," and still be trying to figure out the answer, said Ronald Gainer, a retired Justice Department official.

In 1982, while at the Justice Department, Mr. Gainer oversaw what still stands as the most comprehensive attempt to tote up a number. The effort came as part of a long and ultimately failed campaign to persuade Congress to revise the criminal code, which by the 1980s was scattered among 50 titles and 23,000 pages of federal law.

Justice Department lawyers undertook "the laborious counting" of the scattered statutes "for the express purpose of exposing the idiocy" of the system, said Mr. Gainer, now 76 years old.

It can often be very difficult to make a call whether or not something counts as a single crime or many. That task fell to one lawyer, Mr. Gainer says, who read the statutes and ultimately used her judgment to decide: If a particular act fell under multiple crime categories—such as forms of fraud that could also be counted as theft—she had to determine whether it could be prosecuted under each. If an offense could be counted in either of two sections, she counted them separately, Mr. Gainer said.

The project stretched two years. In the end, it produced only an educated estimate: about 3,000 criminal offenses. Since then, no one has tried anything nearly as extensive.

The Drug Abuse Prevention and Control section of the code—Title 21—provides a window into the difficulties of counting. More than 130 pages in length, it essentially pivots around two basic crimes, trafficking and possession. But it also delves into the specifics of hundreds of drugs and chemicals.

Scholars debate whether the section comprises two offenses or hundreds. Reading it requires toggling between the historical footnotes, judicial opinions and other sections in the same title. It has also been amended 17 times.

In 1998, the American Bar Association performed a computer search of the federal codes looking for the words "fine" and "imprison," as well as variations. The ABA study concluded the number of crimes was by then likely much higher than 3,000, but didn't give a specific estimate.

"We concluded that the hunt to say, 'Here is an exact number of federal crimes,' is likely to prove futile and inaccurate," says James Strazzella, who drafted the ABA report. The ABA felt "it was enough to picture the vast increase in federal crimes and identify certain important areas of overlap with state crimes," he said.

None of these studies broached the separate—and equally complex—question of crimes that stem from federal regulations, such as, for example, the rules written by a federal agency to enforce a given act of Congress. These rules can carry the force of federal criminal law. Estimates of the number of regulations range from 10,000 to 300,000. None of the legal groups who have studied the code have a firm number.

"There is no one in the United States over the age of 18 who cannot be indicted for some federal crime," said John Baker, a retired Louisiana State University law professor who has also tried counting the number of new federal crimes created in recent years. "That is not an exaggeration."

[ghengis86]

One?! I thought it was three?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1594032556/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/181-0732724-5647700

66% drop in unknown felonies! Things are looking up comrade AF!

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Bah, can't link the article to Facebook to share. Newspapers need to just go ahead and make their online content free.

[Anti Federalist]

///

[Anti Federalist]

one last bump

[Danke]

Can't beat 'em, join 'em: http://www.tsa.gov/join/careers


http://www.tsa.gov/graphics/images/147870_team.jpg

[Theocrat]

The U.S. officially became a police state when this was created:

http://homelandsecurity.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/B87502D7-6330-49EB-BF16-7F0733BB515E/0/HomelandSecurity.jpg

[Legend1104]

Hey look at the bright side. If anyone ever tries to arrest you for one of these, just look up a more serious federal crime he is breaking and threaten to have your lawyer go after him for that.

[Kylie]

Hey look at the bright side. If anyone ever tries to arrest you for one of these, just look up a more serious federal crime he is breaking and threaten to have your lawyer go after him for that.

That may work, but only if you have a gun too.

And an army.

[DamianTV]

Hey look at the bright side. If anyone ever tries to arrest you for one of these, just look up a more serious federal crime he is breaking and threaten to have your lawyer go after him for that.

Considering that everything that you do is a crime, the fact that the Federal Government charges you with a crime is probably a crime in and of itself, according to at least several of their obscure laws that no one knows about.

[heavenlyboy34]

The U.S. officially became a police state when this was created:

http://homelandsecurity.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/B87502D7-6330-49EB-BF16-7F0733BB515E/0/HomelandSecurity.jpg
I would argue that it dates earlier-1908 and the creation of the FBI.

[A Son of Liberty]

Thank you for this, AF. It puts the "land of the free, home of the brave" in stark relief to reality... unfortunately.

The land of the free is long-since dead, sadly. Let's hope articles like this help resuscitate the American corpse.

[Imaginos]

It's just beginning.
Just wait until the shit hits the fan (i.e. dollar total meltdown) and cops breaking down our doors to confiscate all of our gold.
Make sure all of you do not leave any trace of possessing gold and silver.
The meltdown is coming and our overlords will finally flex their muscle in full force.

[Imaginos]

Thank you for this, AF. It puts the "land of the free, home of the brave" in stark relief to reality... unfortunately.

The land of the free is long-since dead, sadly. Let's hope articles like this help resuscitate the American corpse.
"Land of counterfeiting, home of the Military Industrial Complex", more likely.

[Travlyr]

According to the posted website:
Police Departments were not commonplace in America until 1845. Prior to that the "Night Watchman" was primarily watching for fires, predators, and mischief. New York's first police chief, George W. Matsell, began to patrol the city in July 1845.

policeguide.com/Timeline_of_American_Police/timeline_of_american_police.html

[DamianTV]

And now so many years later, Speeding Tickets, Police Brutality, an Unjust Legal System designed to milk the public of every cent they can, this is the Way of Life.

We need a New Way of Life.

A Better Way of Life.

[heavenlyboy34]

And now so many years later, Speeding Tickets, Police Brutality, an Unjust Legal System designed to milk the public of every cent they can, this is the Way of Life.

We need a New Way of Life.

A Better Way of Life.
+a zillion

[Carehn]

Humor is a way to deal with shit. I mostly post sarcastic remarks on this site. Yet it is not funny that we are where we are. We can argue the date it happened but i don't know if anyone can rationally argue that we are not in a police state.

So what we need to do is understand that the biggest threat to this mafia is not some half wit with a bomb shelter full of guns, but thinking men and women like on this site. We may be the biggest threat to this police state and if any of us feel like something is about to go down in their life ( you know the filling --- when you pick up on stuff, you just feel it coming down for some reason) you should act on it. Hide your guns and gold if you must, let us know if you have been assaulted.

They can come for the sheeple at any time but as we have seen in documents they know 'WE' are the threat.

listening to myself I hope I don't sound as crazy is I think I do. Its just that we all need to be watching each others backs as best we can. Dissent will not be looked upon lightly and

Just find a way to let as many people know as possible if you are attacked or taken away or you think you are being targeted for what ever reason. This web site may be the biggest microphone you have and the 1st amendment is the best weapon you have.

If things continue to go in this direction political prisoners are soon to come. Even though they will not call you that.

Im just rambling but ya. Police state fer sher. when it happened, I don't know. It kinda a gradual thing, me thinks.

[Anti Federalist]

The Essential Rules of Tyranny

by Brandon Smith

http://lewrockwell.com/orig12/smith-br3.1.1.html

As we look back on the horrors of the dictatorships and autocracies of the past, one particular question consistently arises; how was it possible for the common men of these eras to NOT notice what was happening around them? How could they have stood as statues unaware or uncaring as their cultures were overrun by fascism, communism, collectivism, and elitism? Of course, we have the advantage of hindsight, and are able to research and examine the misdeeds of the past at our leisure. Unfortunately, such hindsight does not necessarily shield us from the long cast shadow of tyranny in our own day. For that, the increasingly uncommon gift of foresight is required…

At bottom, the success of despotic governments and Big Brother societies hinges upon a certain number of political, financial, and cultural developments. The first of which is an unwillingness in the general populace to secure and defend their own freedoms, making them completely reliant on corrupt establishment leadership. For totalitarianism to take hold, the masses must not only neglect the plight of their country, and the plight of others, but also be completely uninformed of the inherent indirect threats to their personal safety. They must abandon all responsibility for their destinies, and lose all respect for their own humanity. They must, indeed, become domesticated and mindless herd animals without regard for anything except their fleeting momentary desires for entertainment and short term survival. For a lumbering bloodthirsty behemoth to actually sneak up on you, you have to be pretty damnably oblivious.

The prevalence of apathy and ignorance sets the stage for the slow and highly deliberate process of centralization. Once dishonest governments accomplish an atmosphere of inaction and condition a sense of frailty within the citizenry, the sky is truly the limit. However, a murderous power-monger’s day is never quite done. In my recent article ‘The Essential Rules of Liberty’ we explored the fundamentally unassailable actions and mental preparations required to ensure the continuance of a free society. In this article, let’s examine the frequently wielded tools of tyrants in their invariably insane quests for total control…

Rule #1: Keep Them Afraid

People who are easily frightened are easily dominated. This is not just a law of political will, but a law of nature. Many wrongly assume that a tyrant’s power comes purely from the application of force. In fact, despotic regimes that rely solely on extreme violence are often very unsuccessful, and easily overthrown. Brute strength is calculable. It can be analyzed, and thus, eventually confronted and defeated. Thriving tyrants instead utilize not just harm, but the imminent THREAT of harm. They instill apprehension in the public; a fear of the unknown, or a fear of the possible consequences for standing against the state. They let our imaginations run wild until we see death around every corner, whether it’s actually there or not. When the masses are so blinded by the fear of reprisal that they forget their fear of slavery, and take no action whatsoever to undo it, then they have been sufficiently culled.


In other cases, our fear is evoked and directed towards engineered enemies. Another race, another religion, another political ideology, a “hidden” and ominous villain created out of thin air. Autocrats assert that we “need them” in order to remain safe and secure from these illusory monsters bent on our destruction. As always, this development is followed by the claim that all steps taken, even those that dissolve our freedoms, are “for the greater good”. Frightened people tend to shirk their sense of independence and run towards the comfort of the collective, even if that collective is built on immoral and unconscionable foundations. Once a society takes on a hive-mind mentality almost any evil can be rationalized, and any injustice against the individual is simply overlooked for the sake of the group.

Rule #2: Keep Them Isolated

In the past, elitist governments would often legislate and enforce severe penalties for public gatherings, because defusing the ability of the citizenry to organize or to communicate was paramount to control. In our technological era, such isolation is still used, but in far more advanced forms. The bread and circus lifestyle of the average westerner alone is enough to distract us from connecting with each other in any meaningful fashion, but people still sometimes find ways to seek out organized forms of activism.

Through co-option, modern day tyrant’s can direct and manipulate opposition movements. By creating and administrating groups which oppose each other, elites can then micromanage all aspects of a nation on the verge of revolution. These “false paradigms” give us the illusion of proactive organization, and the false hope of changing the system, while at the same time preventing us from seeking understanding in one another. All our energies are then muted and dispersed into meaningless battles over “left and right”, or “Democrat versus Republican”, for example. Only movements that cast aside such empty labels and concern themselves with the ultimate truth of their country, regardless of what that truth might reveal, are able to enact real solutions to the disasters wrought by tyranny.

In more advanced forms of despotism, even fake organizations are disbanded. Curfews are enforced. Normal communications are diminished or monitored. Compulsory paperwork is required. Checkpoints are instituted. Free speech is punished. Existing groups are influenced to distrust each other or to disintegrate entirely out of dread of being discovered. All of these measures are taken by tyrants primarily to prevent ANY citizens from gathering and finding mutual support. People who work together and organize of their own volition are unpredictable, and therefore, a potential risk to the state.

Rule #3: Keep Them Desperate


You’ll find in nearly every instance of cultural descent into autocracy, the offending government gained favor after the onset of economic collapse. Make the necessities of root survival an uncertainty, and people without knowledge of self sustainability and without solid core principles will gladly hand over their freedom, even for mere scraps from the tables of the same men who unleashed famine upon them. Financial calamities are not dangerous because of the poverty they leave in their wake; they are dangerous because of the doors to malevolence that they leave open.

Destitution leads not just to hunger, but also to crime (private and government). Crime leads to anger, hatred, and fear. Fear leads to desperation. Desperation leads to the acceptance of anything resembling a solution, even despotism.

Autocracies pretend to cut through the dilemmas of economic dysfunction (usually while demanding liberties be relinquished), however, behind the scenes they actually seek to maintain a proscribed level of indigence and deprivation. The constant peril of homelessness and starvation keeps the masses thoroughly distracted from such things as protest or dissent, while simultaneously chaining them to the idea that their only chance is to cling to the very government out to end them.

Rule #4: Send Out The Jackboots

This is the main symptom often associated with totalitarianism. So much so that our preconceived notions of what a fascist government looks like prevent us from seeing other forms of tyranny right under our noses. Some Americans believe that if the jackbooted thugs are not knocking on every door, then we MUST still live in a free country. Obviously, this is a rather naïve position. Admittedly, though, goon squads and secret police do eventually become prominent in every failed nation, usually while the public is mesmerized by visions of war, depression, hyperinflation, terrorism, etc.

When law enforcement officials are no longer servants of the people, but agents of a government concerned only with its own supremacy, serious crises emerge. Checks and balances are removed. The guidelines that once reigned in police disappear, and suddenly, a philosophy of superiority emerges; an arrogant exclusivity that breeds separation between law enforcement and the rest of the public. Finally, police no longer see themselves as protectors of citizens, but prison guards out to keep us subdued and docile.

As tyranny grows, this behavior is encouraged. Good men are filtered out of the system, and small (minded and hearted) men are promoted.

At its pinnacle, a police state will hide the identities of most of its agents and officers, behind masks or behind red tape, because their crimes in the name of the state become so numerous and so sadistic that personal vengeance on the part of their victims will become a daily concern.

Rule #5: Blame Everything On The Truth Seekers


Tyrants are generally men who have squelched their own consciences. They have no reservations in using any means at their disposal to wipe out opposition. But, in the early stages of their ascent to power, they must give the populace a reason for their ruthlessness, or risk being exposed, and instigating even more dissent. The propaganda machine thus goes into overdrive, and any person or group that dares to question the authority or the validity of the state is demonized in the minds of the masses.

All disasters, all violent crimes, all the ills of the world, are hoisted upon the shoulders of activist groups and political rivals. They are falsely associated with fringe elements already disliked by society (racists, terrorists, etc). A bogus consensus is created through puppet media in an attempt to make the public believe that “everyone else” must have the same exact views, and those who express contrary positions must be “crazy”, or “extremist”. Events are even engineered by the corrupt system and pinned on those demanding transparency and liberty. The goal is to drive anti-totalitarian organizations into self censorship. That is to say, instead of silencing them directly, the state causes activists to silence themselves.

Tyrannical power structures cannot function without scapegoats. There must always be an elusive boogie man under the bed of every citizen, otherwise, those citizens may turn their attention, and their anger, towards the real culprit behind their troubles. By scapegoating stewards of the truth, such governments are able to kill two birds with one stone.

Rule #6: Encourage Citizen Spies

Ultimately, the life of a totalitarian government is not prolonged by the government itself, but by the very people it subjugates. Citizen spies are the glue of any police state, and our propensity for sticking our noses into other peoples business is highly valued by Big Brother bureaucracies around the globe.

There are a number of reasons why people participate in this repulsive activity. Some are addicted to the feeling of being a part of the collective, and “service” to this collective, sadly, is the only way they are able to give their pathetic lives meaning. Some are vindictive, cold, and soulless, and actually get enjoyment from ruining others. And still, like elites, some long for power, even petty power, and are willing to do anything to fulfill their vile need to dictate the destinies of perfect strangers.

Citizen spying is almost always branded as a civic duty; an act of heroism and bravery. Citizen spies are offered accolades and awards, and showered with praise from the upper echelons of their communities. People who lean towards citizen spying are often outwardly and inwardly unimpressive; physically and mentally inept. For the average moral and emotional weakling with persistent feelings of inadequacy, the allure of finally being given fifteen minutes of fame and a hero’s status (even if that status is based on a lie) is simply too much to resist. They begin to see “extremists” and “terrorists” everywhere. Soon, people afraid of open ears everywhere start to watch what they say at the supermarket, in their own backyards, or even to family members. Free speech is effectively neutralized.

Rule #7: Make Them Accept The Unacceptable

In the end, it is not enough for a government fueled by the putrid sludge of iniquity to lord over us. At some point, it must also influence us to forsake our most valued principles. Tyrannies are less concerned with dominating how we live, so much as dominating how we think. If they can mold our very morality, they can exist unopposed indefinitely. Of course, the elements of conscience are inborn, and not subject to environmental duress as long as a man is self aware. However, conscience can be manipulated if a person has no sense of identity, and has never put in the effort to explore his own strengths and failings. There are many people like this in America today.

Lies become “necessary” in protecting the safety of the state. War becomes a tool for “peace”. Torture becomes an ugly but “useful” method for gleaning important information. Police brutality is sold as a “natural reaction” to increased crime. Rendition becomes normal, but only for those labeled as “terrorists”. Assassination is justified as a means for “saving lives”. Genocide is done discretely, but most everyone knows it is taking place. They simply don’t discuss it.

All tyrannical systems depend on the apathy and moral relativism of the inhabitants within their borders. Without the cooperation of the public, these systems cannot function. The real question is, how many of the above steps will be taken before we finally refuse to conform? At what point will each man and woman decide to break free from the dark path blazed before us and take measures to ensure their independence? Who will have the courage to develop their own communities, their own alternative economies, their own organizations for mutual defense outside of establishment constructs, and who will break under the pressure to bow like cowards? How many will hold the line, and how many will flee?

For every American, for every human being across the planet who chooses to stand immovable in the face of the very worst in mankind, we come that much closer to breathing life once again into the very best in us all.

[AFPVet]

I agree that we became a police state when the DHS was created. Hitler also referred to Germany as the "homeland".

[heavenlyboy34]

The Essential Rules of Tyranny

by Brandon Smith

This^^ deserves its own thread, IMO. :cool:

[NewRightLibertarian]

I hope our country's militias are ready. It is looking like a vicious, bloody battle is inevitable. The feds won't stop until we're all locked up, and they must be stopped.

[Anti Federalist]

This^^ deserves its own thread, IMO. :cool:

Done.

[Philhelm]

It's just beginning.
Just wait until the shit hits the fan (i.e. dollar total meltdown) and cops breaking down our doors to confiscate all of our gold.
Make sure all of you do not leave any trace of possessing gold and silver.
The meltdown is coming and our overlords will finally flex their muscle in full force.

I hope they enjoy cleaning off the blood on that gold.

[Anti Federalist]

Bump for the girl who got fined $535 by the Feds for saving a baby woodpecker.

[Danke]

Bump for the girl who got fined $535 by the Feds for saving a baby woodpecker.



I guess that what I'm saying is that my world would make a lot more sense if you started a thread titled I'm not actually against the NWO, it's just a silly conspiracy theory, oh and btw, I'm a cop.

lol

[Travlyr]

We live in a police state.

[DamianTV]

Well, we support Communism too by buing most of our Food and Products, as well as borrowing insane ammts of money from Communist Countries. If we wanted to support Non Communist countries, we'd import and borrow money from New Zealand instead of China.

[affa]

Bump for the girl who got fined $535 by the Feds for saving a baby woodpecker.

hey, just a note -- I love ya, AF, but that actually never-really-only-sort-of happened.

From what I understand, the woman who found out about the girl/woodpecker reported the case (as is her job) but applied an override for the fine. There was a glitch, and the fine was issued, immediately followed by a letter apologizing for the incorrect fine. The fine had already been removed before the media even picked up the story.

At least, that's my understanding.

Now, as for the rest of the thread, we absolutely do live in a police state. One aspect people aren't mentioning here is the influence of surveillance. Watching my wife drive in a city that now has red light cameras all over the place is an interesting experience. She has, unfortunately, been forced to relinquish control regarding her ability to judge whether it's safe to stop or not when the light turns yellow.

That is, lights are often timed such that if you're going the speed limit, you'll end up at an unfortunate place when the light turns yellow -- either slam the brakes on to stop, or speed up to rush through so as not to get the auto-ticket. It's absurd. Absolutely absurd. And you can't even argue the tickets -- seriously, we looked it up.

It's approx. a $300 fine, plus increased insurance over the next few years (likely another $1000), and there is limited to no ability to challenge the ticket. Now, this is just one minor aspect of a police state; obviously, there are more dire things at play. But it's still frightening to see.

[Anti Federalist]

hey, just a note -- I love ya, AF, but that actually never-really-only-sort-of happened.

From what I understand, the woman who found out about the girl/woodpecker reported the case (as is her job) but applied an override for the fine. There was a glitch, and the fine was issued, immediately followed by a letter apologizing for the incorrect fine. The fine had already been removed before the media even picked up the story.

At least, that's my understanding.

Now, as for the rest of the thread, we absolutely do live in a police state. One aspect people aren't mentioning here is the influence of surveillance. Watching my wife drive in a city that now has red light cameras all over the place is an interesting experience. She has, unfortunately, been forced to relinquish control regarding her ability to judge whether it's safe to stop or not when the light turns yellow.

That is, lights are often timed such that if you're going the speed limit, you'll end up at an unfortunate place when the light turns yellow -- either slam the brakes on to stop, or speed up to rush through so as not to get the auto-ticket. It's absurd. Absolutely absurd. And you can't even argue the tickets -- seriously, we looked it up.

It's approx. a $300 fine, plus increased insurance over the next few years (likely another $1000), and there is limited to no ability to challenge the ticket. Now, this is just one minor aspect of a police state; obviously, there are more dire things at play. But it's still frightening to see.

Thanks for that update.

Been out in the woods for the last week, just getting back up to speed.

[Danke]

Been out in the woods for the last week, just getting back up to speed.

Bohemian Grove again?

[Anti Federalist]

Bohemian Grove again?

That's funny enough for a rep.

I got nothing...

[DamianTV]

hey, just a note -- I love ya, AF, but that actually never-really-only-sort-of happened.

From what I understand, the woman who found out about the girl/woodpecker reported the case (as is her job) but applied an override for the fine. There was a glitch, and the fine was issued, immediately followed by a letter apologizing for the incorrect fine. The fine had already been removed before the media even picked up the story.

At least, that's my understanding.

Now, as for the rest of the thread, we absolutely do live in a police state. One aspect people aren't mentioning here is the influence of surveillance. Watching my wife drive in a city that now has red light cameras all over the place is an interesting experience. She has, unfortunately, been forced to relinquish control regarding her ability to judge whether it's safe to stop or not when the light turns yellow.

That is, lights are often timed such that if you're going the speed limit, you'll end up at an unfortunate place when the light turns yellow -- either slam the brakes on to stop, or speed up to rush through so as not to get the auto-ticket. It's absurd. Absolutely absurd. And you can't even argue the tickets -- seriously, we looked it up.

It's approx. a $300 fine, plus increased insurance over the next few years (likely another $1000), and there is limited to no ability to challenge the ticket. Now, this is just one minor aspect of a police state; obviously, there are more dire things at play. But it's still frightening to see.

I just think its funny (well not really, but) how the system fines and citations has become automatic. Youre accused, here is a fine. Pay it, then you can show up to court to argue about it, after we already have your money.

[affa]

I just think its funny (well not really, but) how the system fines and citations has become automatic. Youre accused, here is a fine. Pay it, then you can show up to court to argue about it, after we already have your money.

Yea. It's terrible. And like I said, you can't even argue a red light camera ticket in court, at least not here in Portland. You pay it. You then pay your insurance company a small fortune in increased rates for I think 5 years.

There are curfews right now in Philadelphia. We will unfortunately likely see those spread, too.

[DamianTV]

Makes you wonder who the sponsers were for those bills. And by sponsors, I mean Lobbyists. Want to find out who will benefit from a new Law? Follow the money!