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DamianTV
07-27-2011, 05:08 PM
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/07/27/uk-china-carrier-idUKTRE76Q1YT20110727


(Reuters) - China is building two indigenous aircraft carriers as part of a broad modernisation programme that has rattled nerves regionally, sources said on Wednesday, as the government confirmed it was refitting an old Soviet carrier for training.

China is ramping up military spending as the United States discusses cutting its defence budget, though the U.S. still far outspends China on security and is much more technologically advanced.

President Hu Jintao has made the navy a keystone of China's military ramp-up, and the carriers will be among the most visible signs of the country's rising military prowess.

"Two aircraft carriers are being built at the Jiangnan Shipyard in Shanghai," one source with ties to China's Communist Party leadership told Reuters, requesting anonymity because he was not authorised to talk about the programme.

The Defence Ministry has only officially confirmed the existence of one carrier, which was bought from Ukraine in 1998 and was once destined to become a floating casino.

That will be used for training and research purposes, ministry spokesman Geng Yansheng said, seeking to reassure other countries that China would stick to its defensive military policy.

But he said China it had a right to protect its extensive maritime territory and coast.

"This is the sacred responsibility of China's armed forces," Geng said, in a statement carrier on the ministry's website (www.mod.gov.cn).

"Building a carrier is extremely complex. We are currently refitting an old aircraft carrier, to be used for research and testing," Geng said.

"An aircraft carrier is a weapons platform; it can be used for offensive or defensive purposes. It can also be used to maintain global peace and for rescue and relief work," he added.

While Geng gave no timetable for starting sea trials, he said pilots were being trained to operate from the carrier.

Sources with ties to the Communist Party and the military said that ship would likely be based in the southern island province of Hainan, which sits atop of the vital trade lanes of the sensitive South China Sea.

The news comes as China has been flexing its muscles more aggressively in those waters, where a territorial dispute with Taiwan and several nearby countries including Vietnam and the Philippines has festered for years.

Geng said the timing "had nothing to do" with the tension there.

The carrier will add to regional concerns about China's military modernisation and arms build-up. Defence spending is rising fast, and Beijing continues to test new high-tech equipment, including a stealth fighter.

"China's next moves have to be watched carefully, or there eventually could be a negative impact on maritime safety in Asia," said Yoshihiko Yamada, a professor at Japan's Tokai University.

Xinhua news agency said it was the first time the government had confirmed it was pursuing a carrier programme.

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The old Soviet carrier's refitting has been one of China's worst-kept military secrets. Pictures of it sitting in Dalian harbour have circulated on Chinese websites for months, and it has been widely discussed in state media.

China would be the third Asian country to have a carrier after India and Thailand, but it will take time before it can go to sea in Asian waters that have largely been the domain of the U.S. navy since World War Two.

"It will be a long while before China develops a fully-fledged carrier capability, it will take a long time to train the necessary crews ... it may be up to decade until China has carrier capability," said Tim Huxley, director for defence and military analysis at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in Singapore.

For Beijing, the rationale of an aircraft carrier is more than just about modernising a navy whose most notable engagements of the past few years have been skirmishes in the South China Sea with some of the other claimant nations.

Sending naval vessels further afield, to the waters off Somalia to fight pirates, and through the southern Japanese islands, has also partly been about ensuring trade routes are protected.

Yet China frets about the powerful U.S. military presence close to its shores, in particular U.S. bases in Japan and South Korea, and Washington's close but unofficial ties with Taiwan, the self-ruled island Beijing claims as its own.

"Aircraft carriers are essential for China primarily to defend its territory and territorial waters and bring a semblance of parity among the world's big powers," Wang Baokun, a defence studies professor at Beijing's Renmin University, wrote in the China Daily earlier this month.

Zippyjuan
07-28-2011, 11:24 AM
For comparison, the US has ten with three more either planned or already under construction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_of_the_United_States_Nav y

Brian4Liberty
07-28-2011, 11:28 AM
The Chinese are a little late. Aircraft carriers are obsolete against modern missiles and silent attack subs. In a real war (as opposed to picking on some small backwater, third world country), the Carriers would all be sunk on the first day.

fisharmor
07-28-2011, 11:33 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Exploration_Rover

We can safely land robots on another planet with little atmosphere and a constant radiation bombardment, and do science experiments for about 25 times as long as originally intended.
I'm not at all convinced that aircraft carriers are necessarily militarily relevant past about 1990AD.

fisharmor
07-28-2011, 11:36 AM
The Chinese are a little late. Aircraft carriers are obsolete .
Beat me to it.
This is the inherent problem with communism.
AFAIK this is what the Russians did for 80 years too: saw what we were doing, and tried to copy it and one-up us.
There is no real initiative.

ihsv
07-28-2011, 11:36 AM
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/carriers.gif

libertarian4321
07-28-2011, 12:49 PM
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/carriers.gif

Yup, it's absolutely ridiculous how much we spend on our navy compared to the rest of the world.

BTW, that old Soviet Carrier, the Varyag, was a hulk when sent to China. It had to be towed to China as it had no engines, weapons, or electronics. It was never functional- the Soviet's stopped working on it long before completion when the cold war ended. Then it sat around and rusted for the better part of 20 years.

It's old, it's small (less than 1/3rd the size of the 10 large American Carriers), and it was nothing but a floating tub when dragged to China. They'd probably be better off starting from scratch than trying to revive that piece of junk.

I wouldn't be too fearful of the power of the Chinese Navy just yet- though American defense contractors would LOVE IT if people would fan the flames of fear, so they can get more tax money to build more unneeded "defense" systems to "protect" us from the terrifying might of the Chinese Navy...

libertarian4321
07-28-2011, 12:59 PM
For comparison, the US has ten with three more either planned or already under construction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_of_the_United_States_Nav y

Its worse than that.

We have 11 active supercarriers. We have 2 in reserve. We have 3 being built.

We also have a similar number that we don't even call "carriers", but they are carriers, and our "non-carrier carriers" are larger than most of the carriers in the world.

It's insane how much we spend on our Navy.

Jesus, who the Hell are we so afraid of? The 4 tiny British carriers (they are our closest competitor)?

Zippyjuan
07-28-2011, 01:03 PM
I believe Britain intends to retire theirs again (they pulled a couple out of mothballs for the Gulf and Libyan actions).

ExPatPaki
07-28-2011, 01:06 PM
Russian naval ships rusting outside Murmansk (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2007/01/09/tuesday_map_russian_naval_ships_rusting_outside_mu rmansk)

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/files/images/russian_ships_0.jpg

ihsv
07-28-2011, 01:24 PM
We're also building/planning 12 America Class amphibious assault ships (slightly larger than WWII carriers) to replace the Wasp and Tarawa classes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_class_amphibious_assault_ship

showpan
07-28-2011, 05:10 PM
Carriers are very useful against undeveloped 3rd world countries and the entire Middle East. No doubt that China has visions of their own imperialist campaign given the broad scope of ours. They are probably going to start helping NATO in order to get in on the spoils too.

In an unrelated article, the waste produced by this government is monumental.

Two never-used Navy ships head to scrapyard (http://hotair.com/archives/2011/07/16/two-never-used-navy-ships-head-to-scrapyard/)
Embroiled by legal battles for more than 25 years, two U.S. Navy ships are finally headed to the scrap heap without ever having sailed and despite the fact that they’re almost completely finished. According to Hampton Roads, the USNS Bejamin Isherwood and the USNS Henry Eckford were commissioned in 1985 at the Pennsylvania Shipbuilding Co. to carry fuel to the Navy’s fleet around the globe. When the company defaulted on its Navy contract in 1989 the 660-foot ships were sent to Florida for completion, but cost disputes terminated that contract in 1993.
Since then, the vessels have sat 95 and 84 percent complete at the mouth of the James River as part of the mothballed ghost fleet.

http://static.flickr.com/60/176998792_28c72c238c.jpg
Suisian Bay, California

http://static.flickr.com/74/176998790_3edf889b4c.jpg
James River, Fort Eustis, Virginia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/US_Navy_100710-N-4281P-799_The_ex-USS_New_Orleans_%28LPH_11%29_takes_fire_from_a_lin e_of_surface_combat_ships_from_four_countries_duri ng_a_sinking_exer.jpg/800px-US_Navy_100710-N-4281P-799_The_ex-USS_New_Orleans_%28LPH_11%29_takes_fire_from_a_lin e_of_surface_combat_ships_from_four_countries_duri ng_a_sinking_exer.jpg
New Orleans takes fire from a line of surface combat ships from four countries

libertarian4321
07-28-2011, 05:16 PM
We're also building/planning 12 America Class amphibious assault ships (slightly larger than WWII carriers) to replace the Wasp and Tarawa classes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_class_amphibious_assault_ship

Yup, those "amphibious assault ships" are our non-carrier carriers, that are actually bigger than most of the carriers in the world.

What a waste of taxpayer dollars.