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View Full Version : Do you pay Income Tax??? Are you required to???




ForLiberty2012
07-15-2011, 10:27 PM
Subject

aGameOfThrones
07-15-2011, 10:35 PM
Advice: don't self incriminate.

Those who fall under federal income taxes must understand why, and are require to pay said voluntary tax else force will be used to make you pay said voluntary tax.

robertwerden
07-15-2011, 10:38 PM
This tax denier topic gets heated and always ends after days and days of arguing that you have to pay your taxes because the government has the guns.

Peace&Freedom
07-15-2011, 11:52 PM
Haven't paid or filed since 2000, like 64 million others.

AceNZ
07-15-2011, 11:56 PM
Yes, I pay. Yes, I'm required to, even though I live in New Zealand.

Teaser Rate
07-16-2011, 12:05 AM
Yes and yes.

purplechoe
07-16-2011, 12:12 AM
"Aaron Russo talks with IRS Commissioner Sheldon Cohen"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX-03Sf1wDo

go to the 5:00 mark to listen Ron Paul stating the same thing as the commissioner...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaUhGpBNBtk

BamaAla
07-16-2011, 12:38 AM
A lot of them. Apparently so.

AceNZ
07-16-2011, 12:54 AM
What's required and not required as an American citizen has long ago stopped being tied to the Constitution. You are required to pay taxes because the government says so. Period. As Russo said, it's just like a protection racket.

Here's an angle that always upsets me: let's say you buy an asset for $100. The asset does not increase in real value, but say inflation is 50% between when you buy and when you sell. You then have to pay tax on a $50 "profit," even though the true value of the asset did not increase.

And of course, there are a million other similar abuses in the code. It's a criminal racket that's enforced by guns held by the government. But that doesn't mean that you aren't required to pay.

In fact, my mom fell for the elder Schiff's arguments along this line. She managed to avoid prison when the IRS caught up with her, but they now attach something more than half of her income to pay back taxes and penalties. She has had to work full-time into her mid-seventies as a result.

Danke
07-16-2011, 12:57 AM
Yes and yes.

You work for the government then.

Not surprised.

BamaAla
07-16-2011, 12:58 AM
As my best friend always says: "the IRS isn't a revenue generating body; it's a behavior modification and compliance body."

Rael
07-16-2011, 01:46 AM
Yes. You are required to.

Jake Ralston
07-16-2011, 02:20 AM
Don't pay your taxes. See what happens.

DamianTV
07-16-2011, 03:23 AM
Yes, I pay. Yes, I'm required to, even though I live in New Zealand.

Wait. You pay United States Income Taxes? I thought you Expatrioted? Or are you just living there?

mrsat_98
07-16-2011, 04:10 AM
Don't pay your taxes. See what happens.

No since 1993 since then nothing has happened, except a couple of letters. One that said " If you are not a person required to file please write not liable on the form, sign it and send it back. The other was a check for everything withheld.

AceNZ
07-16-2011, 04:20 AM
Wait. You pay United States Income Taxes? I thought you Expatrioted? Or are you just living there?

Yes, I pay US taxes. I immigrated to NZ, but because I am still a US citizen, I still have to pay US taxes on my worldwide income, regardless of where I live.

Hence my interest in US politics.... (in addition to the fact that I still have friends and family living in the US)

YumYum
07-16-2011, 04:31 AM
Yes, I pay US taxes. I immigrated to NZ, but because I am still a US citizen, I still have to pay US taxes on my worldwide income, regardless of where I live.

Hence my interest in US politics.... (in addition to the fact that I still have friends and family living in the US)

I have always thought about moving to New Zealand. Do you like it there? Are there many job opportunities for Yanks?

DamianTV
07-16-2011, 04:40 AM
Yes, I pay US taxes. I immigrated to NZ, but because I am still a US citizen, I still have to pay US taxes on my worldwide income, regardless of where I live.

Hence my interest in US politics.... (in addition to the fact that I still have friends and family living in the US)

Dual citizenship? What would happen if you revoked your State Citizenship (a.k.a. US citizenship)?

Danke
07-16-2011, 07:22 AM
yes. You are required to.

lol

Invi
07-16-2011, 08:56 AM
Kind of. And no, I don't believe you are required to, and they refuse to prove it, but I don't have the funds or the lawyers to back me up, so I do it anyway.

Taxes are taken from my checks, but as I am below the "poverty line," I get everything back but SS and Medicare. I suppose I could change the way I file so they take as little as possible.

therepublic
07-16-2011, 09:03 AM
You work for the government then.

Not surprised.

More specifically; you work for the Federal Reserve.

Southron
07-16-2011, 09:29 AM
Yes. And yes also. My conscience requires it.

AceNZ
07-16-2011, 04:09 PM
I have always thought about moving to New Zealand. Do you like it there?

I love it here. One of the best things I ever did for myself and my family -- though also one of the most challenging.


Are there many job opportunities for Yanks?

Yes, unemployment is relatively low here. Tech jobs, in particular, are in high demand.

For starters, have a look at:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/jobs

AceNZ
07-16-2011, 04:16 PM
Dual citizenship? What would happen if you revoked your State Citizenship (a.k.a. US citizenship)?

If I renounced my US citizenship, then I would no longer owe US taxes.

However, in order to do so, I first need to have citizenship in another country. Otherwise, being stateless makes it almost impossible to travel, and I could even be tossed out of NZ since my residence visa lives in my US passport.

In order to renounce, you also have to pay tax on any unrealized capital gains. It's odd, because if you die, unrealized capital gains are given a new basis at their current value. No such luck with renouncing.

I recently learned that you are still eligible for social security if you renounce.

Zippyjuan
07-16-2011, 05:07 PM
It should be noted that you are in a special situation since you already live abroad. A person has to leave the country in the first place to be able to renounce- you go to a consulate or embasay there and sign the papers and surrender your passport. You are still liable to any taxes you owe the US government (AceNZ is earning money in NZ so once he is no longer a US citizen he will no longer be taxed by the US on his earnings there but will still owe for any taxes due up to the time he renounces). People in the US cannot renounce and simply stop owing taxes. It is considered an irrevocable act- you can't change your mind later on.
More info:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html


E. TAX & MILITARY OBLIGATIONS /NO ESCAPE FROM PROSECUTION

Also, persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship will not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad


And as he points out,

Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless and, thus, lack the protection of any government. They may also have difficulty traveling as they may not be entitled to a passport from any country. Even if they were not stateless, they would still be required to obtain a visa to travel to the United States, or show that they are eligible for admission pursuant to the terms of the Visa Waiver Pilot Program (VWPP). If found ineligible for a visa or the VWPP to come to the U.S., a renunciant, under certain circumstances, could be barred from entering the United States. Nonetheless, renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual back to the United States in some non-citizen status.

AceNZ
07-16-2011, 05:36 PM
For US citizens living abroad, in addition to paying income taxes, there is also a requirement to file an annual disclosure with the US Treasury listing your bank account details and the highest balance in the previous year. Supposedly to "fight terrorism," or some such crap.

The renoucement process itself can be a bit of an ordeal. In addition to being done only at a US embassy outside of the US (which for me would require traveling to Auckland; not cheap), they also generally won't let you complete it in a single day. They claim it's such a "serious" decision that they want you to think about it overnight. You may also be subject to an interview, to make sure you aren't being "coerced."

If your renouncement is approved, your name then gets published in the Federal Register. It sounds like it's meant to be a form of public humiliation.

I've heard people joke about becoming a Mexican citizen, renouncing US citizenship, and returning to the US as an illegal immigrant -- then pay no taxes, get free medical care...

Zippyjuan
07-16-2011, 06:42 PM
I've heard people joke about becoming a Mexican citizen, renouncing US citizenship, and returning to the US as an illegal immigrant -- then pay no taxes, get free medical care...

You can do that if you become unemployed and work under the table.

Danke
07-16-2011, 06:48 PM
Living abroad, you are under treaty laws for taxation. But the income tax itself is based on activity, not citizenship.

Peace&Freedom
07-16-2011, 07:57 PM
Living abroad, you are under treaty laws for taxation. But the income tax itself is based on activity, not citizenship.

Correct, though the feds define "activity" so broadly that their contractees and franchises (such as the IRS or tax Court) falsely presume even the existence of a SSN attached to the name of a person constitutes "activity" for the purposes of establishing jurisdiction. Hence the disagreement within tax honesty about whether "activity" or "activity + domicile" considerations excludes you from liability. I am in the latter group, but both sides agree that the tax is currently misapplied and enforced against most Americans. One can smugly assert our view that "taxation is legalized theft" doesn't matter, the feds have the guns, but many of us still possess a spine, and draw a line when it comes to illegal theft, or unlawful enforcement of the income tax.

From the standing of the constitution and positive law, most Americans are nonresident aliens who reside outside the federal zone, but lazily fill out forms that falsely characterize their status as statutory US citizens involved in federal activity. If you are a "US person" or US citizen as statutorily defined, you are required to pay and file. If you are NOT a US person/citizen who is domiciled outside the US (statutorily DC and US territories), AND you are no conducting a trade or business in the US (again, participating in federal activity or privileges), you are not required to pay or file, and not subject to the jurisdiction of the IRS or other franchises.

If more and more Americans stood up for their true, "Kunta Kinte" constitutional standing, and resisted the tyrannical attempts to stamp them as statutory "Toby" tax citizens subject to the whims of the IRS, they would have been more alert to all the other encroachments on their sovereign liberty that have more recently occured.

Rael
07-16-2011, 10:09 PM
From the standing of the constitution and positive law, most Americans are nonresident aliens who reside outside the federal zone, but lazily fill out forms that falsely characterize their status as statutory US citizens involved in federal activity. If you are a "US person" or US citizen as statutorily defined, you are required to pay and file. If you are NOT a US person/citizen who is domiciled outside the US (statutorily DC and US territories), AND you are no conducting a trade or business in the US (again, participating in federal activity or privileges), you are not required to pay or file, and not subject to the jurisdiction of the IRS or other franchises.


That's what Wesley Snipes thought too. He's in federal prison now.

AceNZ
07-16-2011, 10:36 PM
Living abroad, you are under treaty laws for taxation. But the income tax itself is based on activity, not citizenship.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

As a consequence of being a US citizen, you are required to pay income tax on worldwide income, regardless of whether you live in the US or not, and regardless of the country of origin of that income.

Tax treaties are a mechanism whereby some of the income tax paid to either the US or your country of tax residence can be claimed as a credit against the other. However, the credit primarily applies to certain kinds of income (usually wages), and has other limits. I am currently taxed twice on some of my income, once by the US, and again by New Zealand.

Carehn
07-16-2011, 11:02 PM
My dad quit paying about 3 years ago now. Said he was done with them, though in much harsher language. I told him it was a bad idea. He did not care said they would not do anything.

To this day he has been right. I did not think it would work. He got a letter or 2 the 1st year but just tossed them. Then the ATF sent him a letter about selling pot. He is not. Thats all thats happened. Some threat but then they just quit. I think they have bigger fish to fry.

As for me. I just pay what i have to. Don't like guns being pointed at me. Im willing to live as a slave.

Rael
07-17-2011, 02:12 AM
My dad quit paying about 3 years ago now. Said he was done with them, though in much harsher language. I told him it was a bad idea. He did not care said they would not do anything.

To this day he has been right. I did not think it would work. He got a letter or 2 the 1st year but just tossed them. Then the ATF sent him a letter about selling pot. He is not. Thats all thats happened. Some threat but then they just quit. I think they have bigger fish to fry.

As for me. I just pay what i have to. Don't like guns being pointed at me. Im willing to live as a slave.

I hope he gets away with it. I know several people who have done that for 3 or 4 years. But then the IRS came calling. That's because they have a 3-4 year back log. So a lot of people do it a few years and think they got away with it.

But the IRS has 10 years to collect, and the 10 year period does not start until the tax is assessed. Want to file bankruptcy to get rid of the taxes? It's 3 years from when the taxes are assessed until they are eligible to be discharged. So the collection period really does not start until they catch you.

It would be better to file taxes and claim outrageous deductions than to not file. Or earn your money in cash. There are many good ways to avoid or reduce your taxes, but failing to file is not one of them.

Freedom 4 all
07-17-2011, 08:53 AM
Haven't paid or filed since 2000, like 64 million others.

Are you currently writing this from a federal prison? If not, how did you get away with it?

Carehn
07-17-2011, 09:20 AM
I know. I don't want my dad to go to jail or get his shit taken. He said he is banking on the Fed collapsing before they get him.

Luciconsort
07-17-2011, 09:39 AM
It's a protection racket... you pay them to protect yourself from them.

In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women. ~ Tony Montana

angelatc
07-17-2011, 10:01 AM
Want to file bankruptcy to get rid of the taxes? It's 3 years from when the taxes are assessed until they are eligible to be discharged. So the collection period really does not start until they catch you.

.

Taxes aren't dis-chargeable in bankruptcy if the debt was fraudulent, so failing to file probably wouldn't qualify.

DamianTV
07-18-2011, 01:55 AM
Yes. You are required to.

Can you show me the law?

Rael
07-18-2011, 02:06 AM
Can you show me the law?

"The official Internal Revenue Service web site contains references to specific code sections and case law, including 26 U.S.C. § 6011 (duty to file returns in general); 26 U.S.C. § 6012 (duty to file income tax returns in particular); and 26 U.S.C. § 6151 (duty to pay tax at time return is required to be filed) and 26 U.S.C. § 61 (definition of gross income) and 26 U.S.C. § 6072 (timing of duty to file)."

AceNZ
07-18-2011, 02:39 AM
Can you show me the law?

Income tax myths, addressed here:
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/JustNoLaw.htm
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/IncomeTax.htm

Rael
07-18-2011, 02:56 AM
Income tax myths, addressed here:
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/JustNoLaw.htm
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/IncomeTax.htm

Your quote is appropriate here. You can ignore the reality of the tax laws, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring the tax laws.

Acala
07-18-2011, 09:32 AM
"Aaron Russo talks with IRS Commissioner Sheldon Cohen"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX-03Sf1wDo

go to the 5:00 mark to listen Ron Paul stating the same thing as the commissioner...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaUhGpBNBtk

It is CRITICAL to note carefully the difference between the obligation TO FILE A RETURN and the obligation TO PAY THE TAX. The obligation to file a return is arguable and is what Ron Paul is talking about in this video. The obligation to pay the tax is clear in the statute.