Need best responses to these antipated questions from liberal/statist leaning independents

[muzzled dogg]

Need brief counterpoints

Q1. Health care - RP is against national health care while Obama is for, Isn't RP going to eliminate medicare?
Q2. Taxes - RP is for reducing federal taxes, while Obama wants to tax the rich. How can we have social programs, education, health care and security with less taxes?
Q3. War on terror - RP wants to cut our military foreign presence and to reduce the military budget. How can we protect ourselves without attacking terrorist in their own countries?
Q4. Home land security - RP is against the patriot act. Aren't the war on terror and the patriot act working since those prevented another 911?
Q5. War on drugs - RP is against it. Wouldn't we be flooded with drugs unless we fight it?
Q6. Abortion - Isn't RP is against abortion?
Q7. Gun control - RP is against gun control. Doesn't gun control reduce crimes?
Q8. Gays - Isn't RP against gays marriage? Isn't RP against Obama's progressive policy of don't ask don't tell?
Q9. Environment - How can we protect the environment without government regulations?
Q10. Jobs - If RP is against big government, how can he promise more jobs?
Q11. Budget - How can government maintains social programs with smaller budget?
Q12. Technology&Science - How can we keep our technological/scientifically superiority without government funding?
Q13. Education -* How can we keep public education without the education department?
Q14. Immigration - Isn't RP a racist?
General Question - How can you expect me to vote for a Republican in a Republicans primary?

[gerryb]

Read "Liberty Defined"

[Krugerrand]

Q1 - RP would like to get rid of Medicare ... but he believes in not ending it abruptly. To that end, he wants to use money saved by ending foreign interventions to sure up these types of programs until they can be eliminated. Bush/Obama reckless spending could cause the whole thing to fall apart.

[CaptUSA]

I like this quick shots. Let me try...

1. The more money govt puts into health care, the more expensive it gets. Ron Paul's a doctor. He understand the real issue here. Promises made will be kept, but we need to fix it and fast!
2. It's not about higher taxes, but higher revenue and better priorities. Encourage private investment in the US and quit wasting our money abroad.
3. The biggest thing to do is quit creating new terrorists! The attack US, because we're hassling them. You don't see too many terror attacks in Switzerland.
4. Ben Franklin spoke about trading liberty for safety - if you do that, you will always lose.
5. You're not going to create a higher demand for drugs by making them legal - the people who want to use them already do - but you will reduce the costs of trying to limit free people's choices.
6. Yes. Paul thinks you can't defend liberty if you can't defend life. But you can be sure that when it comes to an individual's privacy, nobody will defend you like Paul.
7. Gun laws only stop people who are willing to follow them. And since those people follow laws, they're not really who you should be worrying about.
8. Paul doesn't think government should be making those choices for individuals.
9. The biggest polluters in the world are governments. Stop them first. Also, make polluters financially responsible for what they pollute - they will stop because it will be too expensive not to.
10. He can't. But he understands what stifles the job creators and that's the govt. He'll get the monkey off the back of business.
11. Let's not be coy. Social programs need to be cut back. In most cases, they do more harm than good, but since so many depend on the government, we need to take care of them until we can reduce that dependence.
12. Companies innovate to gain a competitive advantage over other companies. The government just picks winners and losers. Why should we subsidize someone's future profits?
13. We didn't have a DoE until 1979. Grades have been going down since.
14. He's not a racist. That's just silly. But until we fix the other problems in the US, he thinks we need to stop adding to it.

If Obama should lose, wouldn't you rather have someone who would bring home our troops and fight for your liberties here at home? Ron Paul is the hope and change you really wanted.

[acptulsa]

Need brief counterpoints

Q1. Health care - RP is against national health care while Obama is for, Isn't RP going to eliminate medicare?

'With a free market, you always pay the lowest price. With government, you always pay the highest.'--Ron Paul Medicare is why we can't afford to pay the doctor out of pocket. First they demand paperwork, then they demand that doctors charge cash patients who don't generate reams of paperwork the same price. True story.


Q2. Taxes - RP is for reducing federal taxes, while Obama wants to tax the rich. How can we have social programs, education, health care and security with less taxes?

The same way we did years ago--let the states do it efficiently without federal interference. This stuff worked better when the federal government stayed out of it. Ask your grandmother. It wasn't broke, but we fixed it, and now it's broke.


Q3. War on terror - RP wants to cut our military foreign presence and to reduce the military budget. How can we protect ourselves without attacking terrorist in their own countries?

Let them have peace, and they'll have better things to do than come at us with blowback.


Q4. Home land security - RP is against the patriot act. Aren't the war on terror and the patriot act working since those prevented another 911?

You didn't believe the PBS episode of Frontline that clearly demonstrated that we got all the information we needed to prevent 9/11, but we dropped the ball? If you have a failure like that because thirteen agencies wouldn't work together, you don't create a fourteenth to make them play nice--and strip us of our liberties without reason in the process. You strip twelve layers off of that onion and see how what's left over smells.


Q5. War on drugs - RP is against it. Wouldn't we be flooded with drugs unless we fight it?

The primary difference between America under Prohibition and America without Prohibition was people like Capone.


Q6. Abortion - Isn't RP is against abortion?

Lots of people are. Is it really fair the federal government makes them pay for the operations when they consider it murder? Is this the seperation of church and state? Is it moral? It would talke little less than a Constitutional Amendment to overturn Roe v. Wade, and even if that happens under a Paul administration Paul would insist upon leaving it up to the states. So, what are you worried about?


Q7. Gun control - RP is against gun control. Doesn't gun control reduce crimes?

No, it doesn't. And you'll never find statistics to prove otherwise. The principle behind the Second Amendment is sound, and serves a practical purpose.


Q8. Gays - Isn't RP against gays marriage? Isn't RP against Obama's progressive policy of don't ask don't tell?

Don't ask don't tell is dead anyway, and won't be coming back. Paul doesn't think government should say what a marriage is. And there's a great variety of churches in the nation. He's the best friend gay marriage ever had--but please don't tell hardline Republican primary voters this.


Q9. Environment - How can we protect the environment without government regulations?

By suing the living snot out of violators. Something we can't do if the EPA approves of what they're doing. The EPA is one of the best friends the corporatists have. They do what the EPA says, it harms the environment, and they get off scot free because they're 'in compliance'.


Q10. Jobs - If RP is against big government, how can he promise more jobs?

How can he not? Harding and Coolidge were against big government, and they set off the Roaring Twenties. We'd have boom times today if small businesses weren't afraid to expand because they're afraid of what government will make them do next.


Q11. Budget - How can government maintains social programs with smaller budget?

Which government? Your state can have a bigger budget if your taxpayers are paying less in federal tax. You'd just be cutting out the middleman in Washington, that's all.


Q12. Technology&Science - How can we keep our technological/scientifically superiority without government funding?

We can let the states compete to make their universities the best. And we can let the corporations who benefit most from it fund it themselves, instead of letting it serve as corporate welfare.


Q13. Education -* How can we keep public education without the education department?

The same way we did it before the monstrosity was created in 1980--we can maintain a far, far better state of education in this nation. Do you not see that the ED made 'No Child Left Behind' possible? Do you seriously think that has helped one bit?


Q14. Immigration - Isn't RP a racist?

Nelson Linder says no. Google him. And you don't have to be a paradigm of tolerance to make the immigration policy better than it is anyway. You just have to be pledged to serve someone other than the corporatists, that's all.


General Question - How can you expect me to vote for a Republican in a Republicans primary?

Well, in some states you do have to change your registration, but I guess that's not what you're getting at. So, I'll put it this way. Will it muddy your soul more to wear the Scarlet Letter R for a time, or for you to support yet another obvious warmonger? Because there was no yellowcake uranium in Iraq, bin Laden may well never have been in Afghanistan, and Obama hasn't even told us why we're in Libya and bombing Yemen and Somalia. So, vote in a Republican primary or stand by and do nothing when you could be helping to give peace a chance. That's it.


And do me a favor. If you post something that requires a lengthy response, please don't reset the 'new posts' pages right afterward. You're making me copy, refresh and paste and it's a pain in the ass.

[muzzled dogg]

And do me a favor. If you post something that requires a lengthy response, please don't reset the 'new posts' pages right afterward. You're making me copy, refresh and paste and it's a pain in the ass.

i dont know what this means

[acptulsa]

i dont know what this means

You must not have been the one.

Sorry. When you're writing a post and at the same time someone--how to explain it?--shortens or resets the 'new posts' log, it can throw you out. Then you have to be very careful how you log back in or you could lose what you just wrote.

Just a momentary irritation. I'm over it already.

[muzzled dogg]

i dont know vbulletin very well but i think that's done automatically?
i'll see if i can't find out

[acptulsa]

i dont know vbulletin very well but i think that's done automatically?
i'll see if i can't find out

Couldn't be. New Posts is liable to run up to ten pages overnight, while if there's a troll thread being bumped this could happen before New Posts fills up two pages. Which indicates to me someone's on the ball.

Some have told me that if I change my firewall settings I won't have this problem. But, you know, copy, refresh, log in, then paste gets the job done.

But let's don't hijack your excellent thread. And CaptUSA, what say we agree that on many things, great minds think alike? :D

[acptulsa]

Come on, people. If we don't convert a significant number of these folks, Ron Paul will leave the cesspool of Washington forever! I hadn't even seen CaptUSA's post when I posted, yet we came up with different good answers to several questions. Work 'em up and post 'em!

[revrsethecurse04]

Need brief counterpoints

Q1. Health care - RP is against national health care while Obama is for, Isn't RP going to eliminate medicare?

Yup

Q2. Taxes - RP is for reducing federal taxes, while Obama wants to tax the rich. How can we have social programs, education, health care and security with less taxes?

We can't

Q3. War on terror - RP wants to cut our military foreign presence and to reduce the military budget. How can we protect ourselves without attacking terrorist in their own countries?

Are we protecting ourselves currently by engaging in an imperialistic invasive worldwide campaign?

Q4. Home land security - RP is against the patriot act. Aren't the war on terror and the patriot act working since those prevented another 911?
At the cost of what? Your constitutional rights?
"Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security."
Respond that you are more likely to die from lightning or to contract cancer from the X-Ray machines present across the nation than you are to die from a terrorist atatck.

Q5. War on drugs - RP is against it. Wouldn't we be flooded with drugs unless we fight it?

Ask him if he plans on doing drugs tomorrow if they were legalized?

Q6. Abortion - Isn't RP is against abortion?

Numerous resources on this, OBGYN experience, never performed an abortion, wants states to decide issues such as these.

Q7. Gun control - RP is against gun control. Doesn't gun control reduce crimes?

Last updated in 2005 but there were 43,000+ deaths as a result of vehicular accidents, and 30,000+ gun related deaths. Ask him to hand you your keys, and continue the debate from there.

If that doesn't work explain that guns are a revolutionary vehicle. If the government gets to be too intrusive and controlling guns are the medicine as prescribed by our founding fathers to deal with that solution. Offer up quotes by Thomas Jefferson:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one."

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?"

Q8. Gays - Isn't RP against gays marriage? Isn't RP against Obama's progressive policy of don't ask don't tell?

Ron Paul's view on government is that you should not be treated differently if you were gay, black or purple.

Q9. Environment - How can we protect the environment without government regulations?

Ron Paul is not against state regulations if a state pursues to choose to regulate certain activities. He just does not wish to give the central government carte blanche to regulate our lives.

Q10. Jobs - If RP is against big government, how can he promise more jobs?

Lower corporate taxes, lower taxes for everyone. Jobs move from the public sector to the private sector.

Q11. Budget - How can government maintains social programs with smaller budget?

They can't.

Q12. Technology&Science - How can we keep our technological/scientifically superiority without government funding?

Private enterprise. If you were told to complete a project out of the love of your country or given the option to complete a project and have enough money to live comfortably for the rest of your life which would motivate the inventor/entrepreneur more?

Q13. Education -* How can we keep public education without the education department?

Can't. How is the public education department doing these days? With less taxes, people will be able to make real choices about where they wish to spend their money for their children's education. In a competitive system, the best schools would strive to stay the best, instead of barely staying afloat as they do now.

Q14. Immigration - Isn't RP a racist?

Ask him to explain what is meant by this?

General Question - How can you expect me to vote for a Republican in a Republicans primary?

What changes have you seen under the Obama administration that you sat back and said, "Hey he's doing this so much differently than Bush." Urge him to check out speeches on RonPaulClassics given years ago, and ask him to check his voting record. If you have persuaded him on the above talking points than his voting record and integrity will put the nail in the coffin.

[muzzled dogg]

Thanks.

Anyone else?

[acptulsa]

Thanks.

Anyone else?

Oh, come on. Pass the ammo! More ammo!

[acptulsa]

Why is it that the divisive threads get bumped 'till Doomsday and useful threads like this one slide into oblivion in, sometimes, mere hours? We seem to lack the proper focus. We had better fix that. We have primaries coming up, you know.

[sailingaway]

Q1. Health care - RP is against national health care while Obama is for, Isn't RP going to eliminate medicare?

Right now, medicare is on course to end abruptly leaving all who depend on it without alternatives, all at the same time. It is irresponsible to continue on this course. Ron Paul's plan would be to cut excess militarism and charity abroad and spend it to patch social security, medicare and the real safety net for the truly poor here at home, while allowing the young to opt out. If he got his way it would end, because people have seen how government steals or mismanages funds needed to pay obligations at a distant time, and now know better than to trust their money to government. But that would be a choice. As it is, people have many promises, but anyone who can do math can see what the promises are worth -- nothing.

(Side issue - what if people can't save for themselves - govt can't save for them either - and in the case of govt health care when people don't pay for their own care they use it carelessly. How often have you had someone check to see if a test is 'covered' by your insurance before suggesting it? Yet they don't seem concerned if they find it is not and don't do it? I've had doctors say my kids should have vaccines 'because it is covered by insurance' (and we are talking uterine cancer vaccine as applied to boys, here) -that drives up cost for ALL and is the REASON there isn't sufficient money to pay benefits. When people pay, they are price sensitive and costs go down. There are many ways to discuss handling this, but none of them are medicare as it is structured today.)

Q2. Taxes - RP is for reducing federal taxes, while Obama wants to tax the rich. How can we have social programs, education, health care and security with less taxes?

People are better represented at the most local level possible, where individuals can actually be heard and impact policy. Special interests rule at distant centralized government negotiations where you have to pay the price of lobbyists to be represented. Do YOU think our government is truly representing you? The department of education didn't exist until the 80s and our schools have gone downhill by international standards ever since they started applying a cookie cutter education method to all of our individual children. Education needs to be controlled at the local level, preferably, but definitely not at the federal level where parents aren't at the table. Other issues are similar. Important matters should be left to the states and localities because people want different things, and should be represented in their own children's education. (This devolves into people WANTING to impose their ideas of how other people's children should be brought up, which is despicable in itself, but may best be countered by saying 'do you want someone you hate on the OTHER side of issues determining what your children should learn? you assume YOUR views would prevail. What if they didn't? Specifically, I usually hear a variation on 'what about those horrible, racist schools? We need a national education standard! To which I would reply, what if the leader of that racist [insert southern state here] became president and decided what YOUR kid should learn? Wouldn't you like to stop that?)

Q3. War on terror - RP wants to cut our military foreign presence and to reduce the military budget. How can we protect ourselves without attacking terrorist in their own countries?

That is NOT how they are going to ask that question, imho. Besides, all the 9/11 pilots (most) came from Saudi Arabia, and we have not attacked THERE at all....

Q4. Home land security - RP is against the patriot act. Aren't the war on terror and the patriot act working since those prevented another 911?

[I]*arrghh*

The Christmas underwear bomber wouldn't have been caught by scanners. And got on a plane despite buying a one way ticket with cash, with no passport, after his Dad had affirmatively warned the CIA to watch out for him. What threatens us is not our privacy but the stupidity of bureaucrats and adding more rules for bureaucrats to exploit does not address that.

The Patriot Act, in hearings was found to be used in thousands of instances having nothing to do with terrorism. Once the police have a 'tool' they use it, and it erodes our due process and civil liberties. At what price, 'safety'? And it didn't help keep the underwear bomber off the plane. More intrusiveness to innocent citizens does not cure the fact that the government is simply bad at sifting information -- it just innundates them with so much information it goes unexamined in any meaningful way.

Q5. War on drugs - RP is against it. Wouldn't we be flooded with drugs unless we fight it?

Marijuana was legal until the thirties. My grandparents weren't pot heads, don't know about yours. (OK, don't say that part). Ron Paul would leave this to the states. If they want different penalties for marijuana in small amounts or medical marijuana or want treatment focus more than criminal focus on some addictions, they should be able to try that out. Portugal tried that and did very well. Right now, no state would legalize all drugs, California just voted down a referendum to decriminalize marijuana entirely. But individuals are best represented at the local level.


Q6. Abortion - Isn't RP is against abortion?

Yep.

Q7. Gun control - RP is against gun control. Doesn't gun control reduce crimes?

Studies say otherwise. Where concealed carry has been legalized, violent crime went down. This is true in every state. We have the lowest 'home invasion' rate in this country of any country despite our violence outside the home. That is because so many Americans have guns and are allowed to have them relatively handy and use them in self defense within their homes. Criminals don't know who has a gun, and they don't break in unless they are sure people are gone, except in rare instances, here.

Q8. Gays - Isn't RP against gays marriage? Isn't RP against Obama's progressive policy of don't ask don't tell?

Ron voted to ban don't ask don't tell when he found out it was being implemented as a status crime type rule, rather than to just stop disruptive behavior. He thinks disruptive behavior, by anyone, is what should be regulated, not who a person is.

Ron thinks government should be out of marriage entirely, that it should be between the individuals and their church or religious body, for those who want a religious marriage. However, he definitely thinks the federal government should be out of it.

Q9. Environment - How can we protect the environment without government regulations?

Just refer to the states. If they say 'but air passes state boundaries' point out that each state has its own environmental agency and they work together with other state agencies. The Uniform Commercial Code is one of many 'national' laws passed where states coordinated to create common policies in circumstances where they knew uniformity was important. States aren't idiots. The centralized approach just lets an idea that is unpopular become law on states that don't want it, and again, if it is the view opposite that of the person speaking that was centrally mandated, they wouldn't like it.


Q10. Jobs - If RP is against big government, how can he promise more jobs?

No one can credibly 'promise' more jobs, but Ron can point to history and write an economic treatise on how his views lead to the most productive social model, creating wealth and jobs.

Q11. Budget - How can government maintains social programs with smaller budget?

They wouldn't be the same. But the money comes from someone else, and leaves less for productive use and the economy. In this country, charity and churches used to fill this role. That is why there are so many Catholic hospitals.

Q12. Technology&Science - How can we keep our technological/scientifically superiority without government funding?

Creativity creates technological superiority. Government stifles creativity, in part by determining the only 'worthwhile' paths to fund, skewing where research goes.


Q13. Education -* How can we keep public education without the education department?

See my discussion of education, above. Schools now teach pablum in order to find an achievable minimum standard all schools can minimally test to 'succeed' at. Otherwise the standard is considered 'unfair'. This dumbing down of our schools is unfair. Kids should be challenged to reach their potential, not be dumbed down to a universal minimum standard.

Q14. Immigration - Isn't RP a racist?

No he isn't. Go to hell.

(I've answered this, search 'newsletters' in the forum search. But at the moment I'm fond of the answer I just gave.)

General Question - How can you expect me to vote for a Republican in a Republicans primary?

Some approaches to try:

1) Consider yourself to be infiltrating the enemy. It is a perilous, and occasionally distasteful task, but your nation needs you. :p (disclaimer, I'm a long-term, albeit previously apathetic, Republican)

2) Vote for the individual, not the party. Believe me, the 'party' establishment doesn't like Ron, anyhow.

3) Do you like having to choose between bad choices every election? Ron's support is too even between Republicans and independents by polls. He has the support to win the primary, but only if his supporters actually VOTE in the primary. (Show them the breakdown in the April 2010 Rasmussen poll (now behind a subscriber screen) or the PPP polls taken during 2010, spring, showing Ron to excel with independents, or compare the primary polls to the May 5 poll by CNN showing Ron Paul polls best HEAD TO HEAD against Obama, when independents and switchable Democrats are counted in.)

[acptulsa]

And don't forget 'won't the corporations crush us without regulation?' or 'won't the corporations poison us without regulation?' I love Underwriters' Laboratories; it's private, it has worked for years and it answers all these questions. The insurance companies keep us safe from poorly designed electrical ware and other home products, not the government. And unlike, for example, the FDA, the UL actually works.

[muzzled dogg]

you must spread some rep around

[acptulsa]

you must spread some rep around

Think I will. Got you covered. And check your own.

And SA, get your bookmark made. I know you're still here.

Now. I've got more rep ammo. Does anyone have any more rhetorical ammo? Out with it!

[Athena]

Need brief counterpoints

Q1. Health care - RP is against national health care while Obama is for, Isn't RP going to eliminate medicare?
Q2. Taxes - RP is for reducing federal taxes, while Obama wants to tax the rich. How can we have social programs, education, health care and security with less taxes?
Q3. War on terror - RP wants to cut our military foreign presence and to reduce the military budget. How can we protect ourselves without attacking terrorist in their own countries?
Q4. Home land security - RP is against the patriot act. Aren't the war on terror and the patriot act working since those prevented another 911?
Q5. War on drugs - RP is against it. Wouldn't we be flooded with drugs unless we fight it?
Q6. Abortion - Isn't RP is against abortion?
Q7. Gun control - RP is against gun control. Doesn't gun control reduce crimes?
Q8. Gays - Isn't RP against gays marriage? Isn't RP against Obama's progressive policy of don't ask don't tell?
Q9. Environment - How can we protect the environment without government regulations?
Q10. Jobs - If RP is against big government, how can he promise more jobs?
Q11. Budget - How can government maintains social programs with smaller budget?
Q12. Technology&Science - How can we keep our technological/scientifically superiority without government funding?
Q13. Education -* How can we keep public education without the education department?
Q14. Immigration - Isn't RP a racist?
General Question - How can you expect me to vote for a Republican in a Republicans primary?

1) Obama is *not* for any sort of sane national health care. Obama got more campaign contributions from insurance companies than the republicans did in 2008. That's because he apparently promised to make the problem worse and make them richer with a mandate.

2) Obama *claims* to want to tax the rich, but caves before it's necessary every time. He serves his real constituency - Wall Street. The buy his elections, and they are wealthy and don't want to be taxed on par with working Americans.

3) not an issue with people you want to and can win from the left. "Our" argument is the same as "yours".

4) same answer as Q#3.

5) Same as # 3 and 4. Progressives are with you guys on that stuff, for real. Actually, we might be even more libertarian than you guys there. See:
http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/mark-ames/36957/two-things-to-say-about-ron-pauls-allegedly-awesome-position-on-drugs

6) I got nothin'. RP really needs to just change his mind there.

7) Frightened, pissed off progressives are pretty cool with the right to bear arms atm. No shit. This is unlikely to be an issue with potential RP voters on the left.

8) I have no idea where RP stands on civil rights for gays, so, I dunno.

9) This is another area where I think RP needs to just change his mind.

10) See #9. Sorry.

11) RP just needs to promise to cut war spending and promise to not screw over the people who have paid into SS, etc their whole lives. And he needs to promise it more genuinely and more loudly than Obama.

12) Again, I got nothin'. Again.

13) Four words: "No Child Left Behind". No aware and awake leftist can deny that the federal DOE has done more harm than good in the past decade. Contrary to public opinion among libertarians, lefties don't actually have a fixation with the federal government. We mostly often love hyper-local projects.

14) Well, I personally suspect that RP, as most older white folks are, is a racist, even if he doesn't believe he is. Obama's classism totally eclipses that, tho. RP at least wants to starve the new plantation owners of their gov-awarded advantage.

[sailingaway]

You do realize that saying 'most older white folks are racist' is kinda racist, right?

[Athena]

You do realize that saying 'most older white folks are racist' is kinda racist, right?

Well, it's true, IME in the south, irrespective of whether or not it's racist. (I've been flamed to high heaven on leftie boards for just mentioning that here in Memphis, the poor areas are almost 100% black, and with poverty comes whole swaths of other problems. And I live in a hood that was 99.9% black until last year, when Hispanics started moving onto my block.)

[sailingaway]

Well, it's true, IME in the south, irrespective of whether or not it's racist. (I've been flamed to high heaven on leftie boards for just mentioning that here in Memphis, the poor areas are almost 100% black, and with poverty comes whole swaths of other problems. And I live in a hood that was 99.9% black until last year, when Hispanics started moving onto my block.)

Ron was brought up in Pennsylvania, FWIW. Mind you you've now wrapped regional prejudice into it....

Sorry. But he isn't even the slightest bit racist, because he doesn't think in groups.

[acptulsa]

Athena, did you read my responses on questions 6, 9, 10 and 12?

On abortion, it really is totalitarian and a violation of the speration of church and state to actually force people who think it's murder to subsidize them with their tax dollars. You can only get as much liberty as you give, as Will Rogers said.

On the environment, federal regulations and the EPA actually give polluters a pass. They can't be sued for the damage they do if they're in compliance.

I know someone who used to work in funding education and university research for the Department of Energy. There's a better way to do this than to promote their terribly skewed agenda, believe me.

As for jobs, come on. Government jobs? These are not what fueled the greatest recoveries in U.S. history. What fueled these were confidence, and the government isn't providing confidence. Big government is killing confidence. It makes business scared to invest domestically, it helps the corporations put the squeeze on small business, and the way it squelches entrepreneurial spirit is best demonstrated by the several instances around the country of cops and agents shutting down lemonade stands, for God's sake. That awful Monsanto bill after the peanut butter scare a year and a half ago nearly killed farmers' markets--only a last-minute amendment saved them at all, and what can be sold in them got limited to whole fruits and vegetables. If you bake and decorate a cake for a friend, you had better give it to them and not even charge them enough for the flour, sugar and eggs. Otherwise you're in violation of federal law. The economy needs the fedgov out of the way.

You gave some great responses to some of the others, though. Thanks!

[Travlyr]

Read "Liberty Defined"

There is your answer. Let Ron Paul do it.

[Paul Or Nothing II]

1) Obama is *not* for any sort of sane national health care. Obama got more campaign contributions from insurance companies than the republicans did in 2008. That's because he apparently promised to make the problem worse and make them richer with a mandate.

That's always the whole point of "healthcare", & "medicare" & "social security", etc etc biggest lobbyists for that are medical associations & pharmaceuticals & such, it's never their to "help people", that's always the socialist rhetoric but always has a corporatist background.


2) Obama *claims* to want to tax the rich, but caves before it's necessary every time. He serves his real constituency - Wall Street. The buy his elections, and they are wealthy and don't want to be taxed on par with working Americans.

Why are rich obligated to pay more anyway? If someone commits a fraud or steals then they should be taken to court & we should demand a better justice-system to make perpetrators don't get away with it BUT taxing people who've JUSTLY gotten rich without violating anyone's life, liberty & property hurts EVERYONE in the long run, please read - http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?305047-How-to-win-support-from-the-pissed-off-left&p=3422877&viewfull=1#post3422877


6) I got nothin'. RP really needs to just change his mind there.

Why? May be socialists/communists don't mind killing other humans but a lot of libertarians believe that every INNOCENT human has a right to life. But he's for States Rights anyway so Blue-states can keep on murdering while Red-states can ban it according to public opinion so he won't support Federal funding for abortion, states can do it if people want.


7) Frightened, pissed off progressives are pretty cool with the right to bear arms atm. No shit. This is unlikely to be an issue with potential RP voters on the left.

Glad to know :)


8) I have no idea where RP stands on civil rights for gays, so, I dunno.

Well, he doesn't really believe in civil & uncivil rights but if you're talking about gay-marriage then, his position is that government has no right to regulate marriage itself (hetero or ****); it should be done by Church &/or other voluntary organisations, it's just a contract afterall.


9) This is another area where I think RP needs to just change his mind.

As acptulsa has said, "regulations" are NOT there to "protect the environment", they are there so that only those who give money to politicians & bureacucrats are allowed to LEGALLY pollute the environment (same thing with "regulations" in business). That's why Ron doesn't support "regulations" BUT he believes PROPERTY-RIGHTS so if someone pollutes someone's property then they should be sued for it, members of the public can sue companies for polluting "public property" & that's why again, it is important to make justice-system more efficient & answerable to the public.


10) See #9. Sorry.

Government CAN'T create jobs (NOT productive ones anyway) because they've no capital of themselves, whatever they have, they must STEAL from its citizens & then they waste it on providing crappy services, overpay their employess & don't care about consumers; that's exactly why communist/socialist economies eventually move towards self-destruction.

Only private sector creates PRODUCTIVE jobs, government can only HINDER them with "regulations" & taxation which destroyes capital & less jobs, less goods/services are produced. Please read - http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?305047-How-to-win-support-from-the-pissed-off-left&p=3422877&viewfull=1#post3422877

But Ron has said that trillions of American dollars are overseas with American companies & individuals & they won't bring it here because of high taxes & high regulation so he's said he'll reduce taxes & "regulations" which'll attract that capital back into the economy & thereby create more jobs, more goods/services.


11) RP just needs to promise to cut war spending and promise to not screw over the people who have paid into SS, etc their whole lives. And he needs to promise it more genuinely and more loudly than Obama.

He's already said so many a times that he won't people on the street & he'll keep government's obligations to people who're addicted to the system & have paid into it.

You can circulate this among your friends if you wish. It's his plan on what he'd do on entering office - http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul647.html


12) Again, I got nothin'. Again.

As I've said before, most of the money that goes to government goes down the throats of politicians & bureaucrats & their corporate & other buddies so usually, government only funds projects which they THINK are good & looking at the state of the country, you can imagine how good they're at doing things :rolleyes: so just leaving people's money untaxed will mean that people who are interested technology & scientific projects will donate to them, businesses & enterpreneurship will always be seeking newer technology & scientific breakthroughs that can benefit them, some businesses might contribute just to enhance their goodwill in the market BUT they'll be better judges of whether the money is worth spending on certain projects, they'll be less likely to just waste it; governments ie politicians don't really understand these issues nor do they care about wastage BECAUSE it's not their money, it's the people's money so they don't give a shit.


13) Four words: "No Child Left Behind". No aware and awake leftist can deny that the federal DOE has done more harm than good in the past decade. Contrary to public opinion among libertarians, lefties don't actually have a fixation with the federal government. We mostly often love hyper-local projects.

Yeah, he'll settle on local solutions


14) Well, I personally suspect that RP, as most older white folks are, is a racist, even if he doesn't believe he is. Obama's classism totally eclipses that, tho. RP at least wants to starve the new plantation owners of their gov-awarded advantage.

That's just as true for NON-WHITES, most people are racist anyway, no matter how much they try to gloss it over with politically correctness & try to shove it down other people's throats, it is how it is, people are GENERALLY programmed to side with those genetically closer to them, afterall, evolution has programmed every animal to perpetuate its genes & therefore, those who're closest to them.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter because he stands for EVERY person's right to life, liberty & property & he's proved it over the years by voting that way in the Congressf for over THREE DECADES that he's steadfast to his beliefs & he even mentions that the biggest victims of drug-crimes are minorities & that as a president, he'll use his authority free all those who've been convicted for NON-VIOLENT drug-crime; I think he's also worked with NAACP on the issue drugs so you get the picture, right?

And


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGhv3paNz6U

THough unrelated to "racist meme", just to emphasize his CONSISTENCY & INTEGRITY; here's him during his 1988 presidential run, talking about how Fed run BOTH the parties & how Fed allows both parties further socialism to keep getting re-elected by promising "free" stuff


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDEgBWO54dA


Well, it's true, IME in the south, irrespective of whether or not it's racist. (I've been flamed to high heaven on leftie boards for just mentioning that here in Memphis, the poor areas are almost 100% black, and with poverty comes whole swaths of other problems. And I live in a hood that was 99.9% black until last year, when Hispanics started moving onto my block.)

Enjoy while you can because if Ron Paul doesn't become president & a socialist dictator takes over (be it Obama or Romney) as is likely to happen due to continuously disastrous economy over this decade & the civil unrest it'll cause then there's going to be some racial violence & I won't be surprised if the country separates into many countries on racial, cultural, political lines.