Would you work somewhere you didn't politically/ideologically agree with?

[libertybrewcity]

I asked my parents, who are more authoritarian conservatives, if they think Michelle Bachmann's former job as an IRS attorney would make them think about voting for her. I asked this because I wanted to know if your past careers really does make a difference of who someone votes for.

But then I came to question would I ever work somewhere I didn't agree with? Last summer I found myself in desperate need of a job and ended up working for census. At the same time I was criticizing candidates for their careers at places I didn't agree with. Does it really matter where you work? People need money and by not working there it's not like the job will always go unfilled or terminate itself. Truthfully, I'm not really sure if I should stop being hypocritical or continue using working at the IRS or Federal Reserve, for example, as arguments against certain candidates.

[Working Poor]

My H almost went to work for the IRS as an auditor but decided he just couldn't do it. He had even started training and decided that there was that no way could he continue working for them. This was several years ago. He said it went against every freedom loving bone in his body.

[Christianlibertarian]

Classic moral dilemma. Sometimes we must be the change that we want to see. I used to work at a job that required me to bill the MA government health insurance (romneycare) for my counseling services. When I became more aware of my libertarian leanings I felt morally conflicted and left my job. It was a long, painful process and other involved escaping from MA altogether but now I work for a completely private organization that accepts no dirty government money and is hardly subject to any government regulations. I love my job and am proud to work where I do. I would not be able to sleep at night if I worked for the IRS, the fed, etc.

In the case of Michelle Bachmann working for the IRS or Herman Cain working for the fed, it depends on why they left those jobs, IMO. They were professional thieves before but anybody can be reformed. Until I hear them apologize for their past "service" however and see some advocacy to end the IRS and the fed, I will have a difficult time taking them seriously.

I would have no problem using these issues against them in the campaign.

That said, it is virtually impossible to find a job that does not benefit in some way from government force. Even Ron Paul is paid through taxation... I like your questions and I'd love to near some other opinions.

[cjm]

I found this article very helpful when trying to sort out whether one should work or volunteer for the State or not: http://libertarianpapers.org/articles/2009/lp-1-17.pdf

The gist is, "it depends."

[MozoVote]

I once worked for a time-share sales company. What a sleazy business! It was a call center where the first stage was convincing people they had won "free airline tickets" and a pre-paid "vacation." Once they arrive, the sales push begins on them to buy a time share.

I rationalized that I was just a contractor for the database work. And that the company perhaps did a little good, since it was operating in a run down inner-city area where the people pitching the "vacations" probably had few other job prospects.

Still, it does make you recognize the more vampire-istic aspects of capitalism.

Hated working there, and could only get myself to fill out time cards in the 32-35 hour a week range. But, it was in the closing days of 2001 as that recession was getting underway, and my agency had no other leads... So I stayed until my contract was axed.

[V3n]

You can rationalize anything. I've been wondering if Obama has purposefully doing everything ass-backward to keep unemployment high so more folks would be volunteering for the military, TSA, IRS, etc... When you've got to eat, you can find an excuse for anything you've got to do to provide food.

(but no evidence provided says Obama is that bright!)

[Christianlibertarian]

I found this article very helpful when trying to sort out whether one should work or volunteer for the State or not: http://libertarianpapers.org/articles/2009/lp-1-17.pdf

The gist is, "it depends."

Thanks for the article. Some good thoughts so far but I'm not done yet.

[sailingaway]

I think people need to work. It might matter what your role was. Advocacy for something you don't believe in might be different -- not to mention difficult.

[Agorism]

Depends on how much you disliked you job. Some people leave the service without honorable discharge or whatever or transfer to be a cook or something.

[Rael]

I guess it partially depends on your position and what you do with it. You might be using the position to strengthen yourself to a point where you can actually turn the tables. Imagine someone doing clerical work for a tobacco company, so he can pay for law school to become a lawyer who helps people sue the tobacco companies. (I'm not picking on the tobacco companies just giving an example).

Also some people are actually a force for change. Picture a police officer who uses his discretion to ignore victimless crimes.

[outspoken]

I spent a couple of years working for the Veterans Affairs as a health care provider. It taught me that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If there is any question as to whether or not socialized medicine works through govt intervention and control, we have to look no further than the ineptness and coruption of the VA system as a microcosmic model for Obamacare. The less personal incentive a patient has to take care of themselves the more costs skyrocket and the less healthier the patient becomes. It creates unhealthy codependency just as you would see in the addict-enabler relationship. We are all human and at times don't see the error in our ways and life is an evolutionary process of enlightenment. Even Ron Paul while drafted initially for the military, stayed on voluntarily for 3 more years. The real question is what did you get out of having such a job? We should also be conscious of the fact that 60% of the population today gets some kind of government income or handout... it doesn't necessarily mean that these people are bad people. The vast majority of citizens are just products of the system and there are very few who wake up and begin to question the system. I don't hold a grudge against anyone who looks back on their lives and sees the error in their ways or does something to put food on the table. Unfortunately, many government employees quickly become part of the problem even if initially there intentions to serve the public were good. It is a slippery slope to job/pension preservation over doing anything remotely productive which is why most government jobs result in futile worthlessness where no one is willing to accept repsonsibilty for anything and self-preservation of your job, project, or entire department becomes paramount to all else. It never ceases to amaze me how few inside government are willing to open their mouths about the truth of working for uncle sam.... few are willing to potentially relinguish their carved out little spot on the teet of their personal beneficiary status.

[pcosmar]

I quit working in the automotive industry for many years because of dishonesty in shops. I found a good one in the Keys and worked there for several years.
When it closed other shops offered me jobs, there were several I could not work for.
I might take a job at one because I am needy enough, but I could not stay in a dishonest shop for long.
I would rather go hungry.

[dannno]

Last summer I found myself in desperate need of a job and ended up working for census.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

[Pericles]

Don't like the politics - sure if they pay me enough. There are some places I would not work as a matter of principle, starting with the BATFE and IRS.

[Pauls' Revere]

I switched from a employer which was essentially subsidized by government programs to the same industry in the private sector. I must say, the frustration is much less now. I

[Anti Federalist]

Would you work somewhere you didn't politically/ideologically agree with?

No.

I've turned down a number of government jobs over the years.

Nor would I take a job running vessels for say, GreenPeace.

[Teaser Rate]

Refusing to work for government agencies which act against libertarian principles isn’t going to do anything to make them go away.

The way I look at it, we need more libertarians in government, not fewer. Why is it that we spend countless hours trying to get representatives elected to Congress with the hope that they might do something to curb governmental abuse of power while looking down at people who accept the opportunity to promote civil liberties and the rule of law in the real world?

The only thing you accomplish by declining a job on principle is to allow someone less qualified and less libertarian than you to access a position of power.

I want to live in a country with more libertarians working as policemen, IRS lawyers, TSA agents and Federal Reserve Chairmen. Doesn’t everyone else?

[Tinnuhana]

Good point^
I teach in a gov't school and have a unique opportunity (within the restrictions of the Hatch Act...thank you, FDR) to share the liberty message.

[pcosmar]

I want to live in a country with more libertarians working as policemen, IRS lawyers, TSA agents and Federal Reserve Chairmen. Doesn’t everyone else?
NOPE
I want to live in a country without IRS,,TSA,.Federal Reserve, Police or other government interference.
I want to live in Liberty. I could work in a job that was contrary to it.

I remember a time when police were few, and TSA did not exist. Though most of these started long before I was born.

[Thrashertm]

Refusing to work for government agencies which act against libertarian principles isn’t going to do anything to make them go away.

The way I look at it, we need more libertarians in government, not fewer.

See Ron Swanson from Parks and Recreation - the greatest character ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgycSKDRFXs

[YumYum]

Refusing to work for government agencies which act against libertarian principles isn’t going to do anything to make them go away.

The way I look at it, we need more libertarians in government, not fewer. Why is it that we spend countless hours trying to get representatives elected to Congress with the hope that they might do something to curb governmental abuse of power while looking down at people who accept the opportunity to promote civil liberties and the rule of law in the real world?

The only thing you accomplish by declining a job on principle is to allow someone less qualified and less libertarian than you to access a position of power.

I want to live in a country with more libertarians working as policemen, IRS lawyers, TSA agents and Federal Reserve Chairmen. Doesn’t everyone else?

Excellent point! I'd rather face an IRS agent who supports Ron Paul than one who supports Obama!

[Danke]

Excellent point! I'd rather face an IRS agent who supports Ron Paul than one who supports Obama!

Yes, my executioner's personal beliefs are sooo important to me.

[Imaginos]

I work as a clinical informatic in a hospital.
So I consider my job as productive/useful/wholesome job which is a very important factor of choosing a job for me.
However, in terms of political/ideological aspects, the hospital is anything but libertarian.
Vast majority of employees are accepting 'the authoritarian big brother government' as a infallible system of the ultimate good and justice.
In this place, 'Question the authority' is the words that is as alien as 'Chthulhu and Yog-Sothoth'.
Also I feel keenly why the stupid government regulations are destroying the healthcare system of this country.
You wouldn't believe just how much stupid regulation crap just for the sake of regulation is going on in the various aspects of the hospital management.
The government has perverse Midas' hand.
Whatever the government touches, it turns into pure horse shit.

[Anti Federalist]

Refusing to work for government agencies which act against libertarian principles isn’t going to do anything to make them go away.

The way I look at it, we need more libertarians in government, not fewer. Why is it that we spend countless hours trying to get representatives elected to Congress with the hope that they might do something to curb governmental abuse of power while looking down at people who accept the opportunity to promote civil liberties and the rule of law in the real world?

The only thing you accomplish by declining a job on principle is to allow someone less qualified and less libertarian than you to access a position of power.

I want to live in a country with more libertarians working as policemen, IRS lawyers, TSA agents and Federal Reserve Chairmen. Doesn’t everyone else?

What if you went work instead for subsidiary company owned by the Mob?

What if every dollar you earned was paid for in blood money, violently extorted from people against their will?

What you propose is a very plausible justification, that may help some folks sleep better at night, but it is ultimately doomed to failure.

When you dance with the devil, you don't change him, the devil changes you.

[Teaser Rate]

What if you went work instead for subsidiary company owned by the Mob?

What if every dollar you earned was paid for in blood money, violently extorted from people against their will?

What you propose is a very plausible justification, that may help some folks sleep better at night, but it is ultimately doomed to failure.

When you dance with the devil, you don't change him, the devil changes you.

The government is not a demonic mob and tax dollars are not blood money.

[AlexMerced]

I've worked and would work with people I disagree with of course, and I'd be willing to do certain jobs I find illegitimate, like being a politician.

[Anti Federalist]

The government is not a demonic mob and tax dollars are not blood money.

It's not?

How many people have died in mob violence since, say, 1950?

How many people has government killed in wars since, say, 1950?

[heavenlyboy34]

It's not?

How many people have died in mob violence since, say, 1950?

How many people has government killed in wars since, say, 1950?
+rep

[jonhowe]

I worked for and helped run the campaign of a NY Democratic State senator.

He was QUITE liberal on almost everything. However, I often had to drive him to events (he wasn't horribly well off, and he and his wife shared a car) in my car, adorned with Ron Paul stickers. It was fun.

Every now and then we'd have a really deep discussion about our fundamental political differences, and every now and then he'd let me know he agreed with me in some ways, he was just too chicken to vote his heart.

He lost reelection last year.

Edit: I should note, i started at the office as an unpaid college intern. It really got me into politics and is how I found Ron Paul. By the time they hired me for money, I'd registered as a libertarian (although NY registered me as a member of the "liberal party" instead...). It was my attempt to get political and campaign experience to help our cause in the future.
Or, that's what I told myself.

[KingRobbStark]

If you have absolutely no choice, then you should. Though if there are other jobs out there, but instead you decides to work for the IRS, then shame on you.

[MozoVote]

I'm just waiting for someone to de-lurk and tell us what it's like to work for the TSA

[osan]

I asked my parents, who are more authoritarian conservatives, if they think Michelle Bachmann's former job as an IRS attorney would make them think about voting for her. I asked this because I wanted to know if your past careers really does make a difference of who someone votes for.

But then I came to question would I ever work somewhere I didn't agree with? Last summer I found myself in desperate need of a job and ended up working for census. At the same time I was criticizing candidates for their careers at places I didn't agree with. Does it really matter where you work? People need money and by not working there it's not like the job will always go unfilled or terminate itself. Truthfully, I'm not really sure if I should stop being hypocritical or continue using working at the IRS or Federal Reserve, for example, as arguments against certain candidates.

AS with many things in life, there is a balance that must be stricken between principle and pragmatism. That can only be done by each individual according to the dictates of his conscience. What is OK for one may not be so for another.

[AceNZ]

Would you work somewhere you didn't politically/ideologically agree with?

Easy one for me: absolutely not. It's called having principles.

However, it's important to understand that people's principles evolve over time. Taking a job at the IRS or something like that is one thing if it happened years ago. The question is, would you do it again today, based on your current principles?

[ProIndividual]

To the OP:

When in need, do what feeds you. Otherwise, the marginal utility in the job will decrease relative to your fullfilled needs, meaning the utility of your "good nights sleep" will become more attractive. Your conscience only has precedent over the valuation process once your needs are met...from there it becomes easier and easier to organize your life around your principles.

For example:

I think unions steal income share of the economy directly from other low and middle class workers, when they bargian collectively for premium wages above market value. So, essentially unions cause unemployment for the very classes they say they help. It would be immoral, me knowing this, to work for a union. However, if I need food I'll do it. Similarly, people steal when starving to death even though if asked they would say it was wrong. Necessity trumps morals and ethics. It's best to meet your basic needs for survival first, and then determine from there what is ethical for you.

Other than pure survival, I will not work for a union...but I never say never, as a good capitalist. I do no one in society any good if I can't even meet my own basic needs. Otherwise I'm a liability greater than the unemployment my union premium wages cause.

This is the one place utilitarianism makes sense to me (I subscribe to natural law theory usually).

[tremendoustie]

I asked my parents, who are more authoritarian conservatives, if they think Michelle Bachmann's former job as an IRS attorney would make them think about voting for her. I asked this because I wanted to know if your past careers really does make a difference of who someone votes for.

But then I came to question would I ever work somewhere I didn't agree with? Last summer I found myself in desperate need of a job and ended up working for census. At the same time I was criticizing candidates for their careers at places I didn't agree with. Does it really matter where you work? People need money and by not working there it's not like the job will always go unfilled or terminate itself. Truthfully, I'm not really sure if I should stop being hypocritical or continue using working at the IRS or Federal Reserve, for example, as arguments against certain candidates.

No, I think it's absolutely immoral to be a paid extortionist.

Some government jobs are far less objectionable -- like librarian. The money's from an immoral source, but the job itself doesn't involve immoral activity.

I recently quit a high paying job that was becoming a part of the military industrial complex.

Personally, I wouldn't work for the government at all at this point, unless it was an immediate choice between that and homelessness. And I'd starve before I'd become an IRS agent.

Of course, we should always be willing to give a person a second chance. If Bachman would come out in favor of liberty in a principled way, favor the end of the IRS, and back up her statements with her actions, I'd support her.

[oyarde]

Yes

[Xenophage]

It depends on the job, and your personal feelings, but remember this:

Your entire society is altered, for the worse, from it what it could have and ought to have been, by government meddling. There would have been more economic opportunity, and you would be a wealthier individual, in a free society. Nobody can hold it against you if you play along with the State in order to maximize your personal benefit in light of diminished options, because ultimately your primary responsibility is to live the best life you are able to.

In Soviet Russia, if you didn't work for the State, you didn't eat. Things aren't quite so bad here, but how should the principle be any different? You need to eat. Likewise, you need to find some happiness in life. Leave martyrdom to the fanatically religious. It may well be that some day, there will be no jobs that are not provided by the government.

At the same time, don't be a hypocrite. State clearly and openly, whenever asked, your opposition to the State. Don't demean other people for working government jobs, but work always to eliminate the power of the government, however you can, and increase your personal choices - and when faced with options, choose the private employer over the public one.

All this also goes for accepting things like unemployment benefits, food stamps, grants, or social security. Go ahead and take it when you need it, recognizing that in a free society you would not need it, and you'd prefer not to take it. The more you take, the more you should feel motivated to work to eliminate the system.

These are my personal views, of course.

[affa]

Me? Never.

But if someone is on skid row and has a family, sometimes you need to take what you can get.

BUT: here's the thing, you're rarely, if ever, going to find a politician that was ever in such dire straights that they needed to take a specific job. We're not talking about homeless people here. So yes, if a well educated, well employed individual takes a job that I find morally repulsive, I will judge them for it.

Ultimately, sometimes really shitty things happen because someone took a job and did them. We need to hold people morally responsible for their actions. Now, there is a huge difference between an individual who desperately needs to take a minimum wage job to support their family and, say, a lawyer taking a 6 figure job at the IRS.