War on Tobacco coming? Iceland considers prescription-only cigarettes

[emazur]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/04/iceland-considers-prescription-only-cigarettes

celand has successfully halved smoking rates over the past 20 years. In 1991, 30% of the population smoked; today, only about 15% light up regularly, according to Baldursdottir, giving it the lowest smoking rates in Europe.

This success is attributed to huge increases in tobacco tax, which accounts for about 25% of the pack price, as well as the drop in disposable income among islanders since the financial crash of 2008.

Other countries have gone further. Bhutan has completely outlawed smoking and Finland hopes to follow suit by 2040.

Swedish surgeons now refuse to operate on smokers until they give up, because of the deleterious effect smoking has on the healing process, Gudnason added.

As an isolated island, Iceland arguably stands a greater chance of success with such draconian measures than other nations.

With no neighbouring countries and rigid customs controls at ports and airports, it will be difficult for anyone to smuggle in contraband cigarettes.

[roho76]

Out with the old, in with the new. Doesn't look like Iceland was tired of statism just the people delivering it.

[Vessol]

How the hell would you get a prescription for cigarettes?

[SimpleName]

How the hell would you get a prescription for cigarettes?

Exactly. Rigged game. Technically nicotine could be prescribed for diarrhea or low blood pressure as it tends to constipate and raise blood pressure, but there are hundreds of more effective alternatives I'm sure. If there is any use for it, surely a pharmaceutical company will create a pill form so that cigarettes are permanently stricken.

What an insane world this is. "Look at the numbers!" Yeah, no kidding. You can tax anything into oblivion. Hate fat foods? Tax fat content. Hate new businesses? Put massive fees for business licenses. Sickening.

[SamuraisWisdom]

Good move by Iceland. You guys may not like it, but there's certain drugs that SHOULD be illegal. Any drug that is naturally addictive (ie nicotine, heroin, cocaine, etc) should be illegal because they may be a choice the first time, but after a while it stops becoming a choice and that goes against free will. Not everybody knows the consequences of using addictive drugs either. However, I do agree with Ron and Gary when they say that drug users should be treated like patients instead of criminals.

[teacherone]

Good move by Iceland. You guys may not like it, but there's certain drugs that SHOULD be illegal. Any drug that is naturally addictive (ie nicotine, heroin, cocaine, etc) should be illegal because they may be a choice the first time, but after a while it stops becoming a choice and that goes against free will. Not everybody knows the consequences of using addictive drugs either. However, I do agree with Ron and Gary when they say that drug users should be treated like patients instead of criminals.

so full of fail.

[Ranger29860]

Good move by Iceland. You guys may not like it, but there's certain drugs that SHOULD be illegal. Any drug that is naturally addictive (ie nicotine, heroin, cocaine, etc) should be illegal because they may be a choice the first time, but after a while it stops becoming a choice and that goes against free will. Not everybody knows the consequences of using addictive drugs either. However, I do agree with Ron and Gary when they say that drug users should be treated like patients instead of criminals.

Slippery slope much?

[Dr.3D]

Good move by Iceland. You guys may not like it, but there's certain drugs that SHOULD be illegal. Any drug that is naturally addictive (ie nicotine, heroin, cocaine, etc) should be illegal because they may be a choice the first time, but after a while it stops becoming a choice and that goes against free will. Not everybody knows the consequences of using addictive drugs either. However, I do agree with Ron and Gary when they say that drug users should be treated like patients instead of criminals.

So you don't want to use those drugs, and that means you need a law keeping you from using them huh?

How about letting people do what they want as long as they are not hurting you? Do you think people are too stupid to make their own decisions?

[Working Poor]

So you don't want to use those drugs, and that means you need a law keeping you from using them huh?

How about letting people do what they want as long as they are not hurting you? Do you think people are too stupid to make their own decisions?

Amen Dr 3D

As a person who has a family full of addicts one of the greatest lessons I learned from trying to help my addicted relatives was to learn to mind my own damned business.

[Krugerrand]

Can't do that here ... how would we replace the tax revenue. Tricky things, sin taxes are.

[oyarde]

I see a money making oppurtunity :)

[oyarde]

So , how much will be the going rate for a black market pack of Marlboro in Iceland ??? Everybody give me a guess .

[Anti Federalist]

^^^ You read my mind.

Nice going Iceland, you think the thug bankers were bad news, wait until you get a gutful of some tobacco smuggling thugs.

Look for this in the USA, probably NY first, in the next five years.

[oyarde]

Early retirement for me ? :)

[Vessol]

^^^ You read my mind.

Nice going Iceland, you think the thug bankers were bad news, wait until you get a gutful of some tobacco smuggling thugs.

Look for this in the USA, probably NY first, in the next five years.

In the next five years? Tobacco smuggling is already happening today.

The most popular path currently is from North Carolina to New York. Lowest tax to highest. I actually have a small number of tourists from New York/New England who visit every gas station and store in the area and buy 5 cartons of cigarettes to resell back home.

Even the ATF ran a scare story about it.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-05-02-atf-cigarette-smuggling.htm

Back in 2002, they ran the story that Al Qeuda and Hezbollah were smuggling cigarettes from NC to NY.
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba423/

Just as aside, this retarded comment in that last link made me laugh "There is no doubt that there's a direct relationship between the increase in a state's tax and an increase in illegal trafficking."
NO FUCKING SHIT SHERLOCK. You don't need a god damned economics degree to know that a black market will crop up when something is taxed to hell or outright banned.

[oyarde]

^^^ You read my mind.

Nice going Iceland, you think the thug bankers were bad news, wait until you get a gutful of some tobacco smuggling thugs.

Look for this in the USA, probably NY first, in the next five years.

To even create the oppurtunity is so stupid , my second thought was those imposing it must be planning on cashing in on it as well , because , really , could anyone be that dumb ?

[oyarde]

In the next five years? Tobacco smuggling is already happening today.

The most popular path currently is from North Carolina to New York. Lowest tax to highest. I actually have a small number of tourists from New York/New England who visit every gas station and store in the area and buy 5 cartons of cigarettes to resell back home.

Even the ATF ran a scare story about it.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-05-02-atf-cigarette-smuggling.htm

Back in 2002, they ran the story that Al Qeuda and Hezbollah were smuggling cigarettes from NC to NY.
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba423/

Just as aside, this retarded comment in that last link made me laugh "There is no doubt that there's a direct relationship between the increase in a state's tax and an increase in illegal trafficking."
NO FUCKING SHIT SHERLOCK. You don't need a god damned economics degree to know that a black market will crop up when something is taxed to hell or outright banned.

Yeah , cigarettes are big business in New York.

[Echoes]

Yeah , cigarettes are big business in New York.

Yep, i was stopped the other day actually, guy just hanging out on the sidewalk asking ppl 'need ciggs ?' Black market smokes are pretty widespread now. They just keep taxing away and prices are soaring, i've seen packs around 15 bucks in manhattan.

[oyarde]

Yep, i was stopped the other day actually, guy just hanging out on the sidewalk asking ppl 'need ciggs ?' Black market smokes are pretty widespread now. They just keep taxing away and prices are soaring, i've seen packs around 15 bucks in manhattan.

I can still buy Marlboro Red shorts in the midwest for $ 4.70 . Of course that is one dollar state tax , one dollar Fed tax and 7 percent sales tax in that 4.70.

[SamuraisWisdom]

so full of fail.

I stand by my statement. If you are physically addicted to a substance it is no longer your choice whether you use it or not.

[Krugerrand]

Does anybody know how hard is it to grow tobacco (zone 6) and take that and make cigarettes? On a small scale x tobacco plants produce y cigarettes?

[Echoes]

I stand by my statement. If you are physically addicted to a substance it is no longer your choice whether you use it or not.

So you must be against alcohol being legal, right ?

Yes just what we need, another Prohibition era with gang control and street warfare. Brilliant. Oh ya, thats what we have now with the war on drugs.

[SamuraisWisdom]

So you must be against alcohol being legal, right ?

Yes just what we need, another Prohibition era with gang control and street warfare. Brilliant. Oh ya, thats what we have now with the war on drugs.

Alcohol is a mental addiction first which transitions into a physical addiction later. That can happen with anything, so no, I am not for alcohol prohibition.

[oyarde]

How does that Ben Franklin quote go ... , something like " Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy " .

[VIDEODROME]

The one thing I agreed with was the right of the surgeon to refuse service. I would hate to go through the hard work of fixing up someone just to see them smoking through a hole in their neck. I mean really why bother?

[Echoes]

Alcohol is a mental addiction first which transitions into a physical addiction later. That can happen with anything, so no, I am not for alcohol prohibition.

LoLz

Ok, good luck trying to ban everyone's personal addiction out there.

[SamuraisWisdom]

LoLz

Ok, good luck trying to ban everyone's personal addiction out there.

At least read my post before responding to it...

[Echoes]

At least read my post before responding to it...

What gives you the right to prevent someone from putting tobacco in their body. Who gave you these magical powers ?

[dannno]

At least read my post before responding to it...

You should go back in time and tell the Native Americans not to smoke tobacco in their ceremonies either.

[fade]

I use spit-less tobacco and feel no addiction to it at all. Some days I use it, some days I don't. I have used it more for appetite control than anything else. You're telling me that this should be taken away from me?

LOL

[SamuraisWisdom]

What gives you the right to prevent someone from putting tobacco in their body. Who gave you these magical powers ?

My point is this: Maybe the first time you smoke cigarettes, shoot heroin, sniff cocaine, etc it is a choice. Maybe even the second time you do those things it is still a choice. But very quickly it stops becoming a choice and becomes a "need". At that point you are no longer acting on free will. Even if you know you shouldn't be doing these things, even if you don't WANT to do these things, your body is saying that you HAVE to do these things. It's not like smoking marijuana or drinking alcohol where at any time you can stop using altogether. These are substances which your body becomes dependent on, and ultimately leads to you being FORCED to purchase and use them.

[SamuraisWisdom]

You should go back in time and tell the Native Americans not to smoke tobacco in their ceremonies either.

That's the beauty of education Danno. Humans used to dump gasoline into rivers during the early days of oil drilling because they thought it was useless and would just wash away, but look what we know now. Just because it's something people used to do, doesn't mean we should keep on doing it.

[SamuraisWisdom]

I use spit-less tobacco and feel no addiction to it at all. Some days I use it, some days I don't. I have used it more for appetite control than anything else. You're telling me that this should be taken away from me?

LOL

I hate to break it to you, but spitless tobacco is no better than cigarettes.

http://teens.drugabuse.gov/blog/tag/spitless-tobacco/

[fade]

I hate to break it to you, but spitless tobacco is no better than cigarettes.

http://teens.drugabuse.gov/blog/tag/spitless-tobacco/

Tell that the the swedish who have had to take off the warnings on their snus packaging because they can't find any conclusive evidence that it causes any problems. Their warning now says "May be harmful for your health"..

Anyway, that isn't the point.. If it is or isn't bad for my health - I feel no addiction and I've been using it for awhile. I thought it wasn't a choice anymore?

[SamuraisWisdom]

Tell that the the swedish who have had to take off the warnings on their snus packaging because they can't find any conclusive evidence that it causes any problems. Their warning now says "May be harmful for your health"..

Anyway, that isn't the point.. If it is or isn't bad for my health - I feel no addiction and I've been using it for awhile. I thought it wasn't a choice anymore?

Well maybe you're lucky. But I would trust science over your personal opinion. Nicotine is found in any tobacco product, and it is addictive. I admit that I smoked a few cigarettes when I was younger, but wasn't enough to get me addicted, though I will say I did have urges to go back to them. Try not using your tobacco for a while, maybe you'll feel something then.

[Dr.3D]

I for one am getting damned tired of being protected from myself.

[fade]

Well maybe you're lucky. But I would trust science over your personal opinion. Nicotine is found in any tobacco product, and it is addictive. I admit that I smoked a few cigarettes when I was younger, but wasn't enough to get me addicted, though I will say I did have urges to go back to them. Try not using your tobacco for a while, maybe you'll feel something then.


I have gone days.. I really only use it when I am dieting, and only for the appetite control and the positive mental effects.

Let's put it this way.. Obviously I can handle my own life and my own addictions. If it's not hurting anyone but myself - why would you try to protect me? Are you going to tell me that I can't go snowboarding because I might hit a tree and die? It happens all the time.

Should I not drive my car down the road, because that is the leading cause of death in people under 30.

The problem is you are trying to save people from themselves, when in reality they can handle their own life. If they are addicted to something, making it illegal won't stop them from getting it (obviously). So let them do their own thing, as long as it's not hurting me it should not make a damn bit of difference.

[SamuraisWisdom]

I have gone days.. I really only use it when I am dieting, and only for the appetite control and the positive mental effects.

Let's put it this way.. Obviously I can handle my own life and my own addictions. If it's not hurting anyone but myself - why would you try to protect me? Are you going to tell me that I can't go snowboarding because I might hit a tree and die? It happens all the time.

Should I not drive my car down the road, because that is the leading cause of death in people under 30.

The problem is you are trying to save people from themselves, when in reality they can handle their own life. If they are addicted to something, making it illegal won't stop them from getting it (obviously). So let them do their own thing, as long as it's not hurting me it should not make a damn bit of difference.

Actually drug addictions do hurt other people. A lot of small crimes (car break-ins, muggings, small home invasions) are done by people trying to get money for drugs. You'd be surprised what people will do when they have to feed their addiction. There's also situations where parents neglect their children because all they care about is getting the money they need to buy their drugs. And of course we all know about the effects drugs can have on an unborn child if the mother uses them while she's pregnant.

And the examples you mentioned have nothing to do with ADDICTION. That is what my whole argument revolves around; the fact that people get ADDICTED to drugs. I don't have a problem with people doing whatever they want on their own free will, but being ADDICTED to something is not free will.

[Krugerrand]

Right or wrong ... I don't see a war on tobacco happening. The state stands to lose too much in tax revenue.

[SamuraisWisdom]

Right or wrong ... I don't see a war on tobacco happening. The state stands to lose too much in tax revenue.

You're right which is probably how the tobacco companies have been around for as long as they have.

[Dr.3D]

Actually drug addictions do hurt other people. A lot of small crimes (car break-ins, muggings, small home invasions) are done by people trying to get money for drugs. You'd be surprised what people will do when they have to feed their addiction. There's also situations where parents neglect their children because all they care about is getting the money they need to buy their drugs. And of course we all know about the effects drugs can have on an unborn child if the mother uses them while she's pregnant.

And the examples you mentioned have nothing to do with ADDICTION. That is what my whole argument revolves around; the fact that people get ADDICTED to drugs. I don't have a problem with people doing whatever they want on their own free will, but being ADDICTED to something is not free will.

Just wait till those same drugs are made illegal. That will push up the price of those drugs to the point where people will be killing other people to get the money to buy them, not to mention the turf wars where the suppliers will be killing each other and innocent people, trying to maintain their area.

[SamuraisWisdom]

Just wait till those same drugs are made illegal. That will push up the price of those drugs to the point where people will be killing other people to get the money to buy them, not to mention the turf wars where the suppliers will be killing each other and innocent people, trying to maintain their area.

They already are illegal...

And making them legal won't stop all of the crime related to drug purchases. It might take power away from cartels and whatnot, but the average user will be in the same situation.

[Dr.3D]

They already are illegal...

And making them legal won't stop all of the crime related to drug purchases. It might take power away from cartels and whatnot, but the average user will be in the same situation.
Seems like the average user would be able to afford those drugs much easier if they were only 1/20th the price they are now. Look at the violence during the prohibition of alcohol. Once the prohibition ended, the violence stopped almost entirely.

[SamuraisWisdom]

Seems like the average user would be able to afford those drugs much easier if they were only 1/20th the price they are now. Look at the violence during the prohibition of alcohol. Once the prohibition ended, the violence stopped almost entirely.

How do you know prices would come down?

[Dr.3D]

How do you know prices would come down?

Because the price always goes up when there is a black market for an item.

[SamuraisWisdom]

Because the price always goes up when there is a black market for an item.

Ok, fair enough. But I don't think you realize how desperate people become when it comes to buying drugs. Even if it only cost $10 to buy a gram of cocaine (I have no idea what the going prices are btw, but I'm pretty sure it's more than that) then the user will do pretty much whatever it takes to come up with that $10. If they have a job which pays enough to support their habit along with their daily life than great, everything works out. But if that person uses more than they can compensate for then they resort to whatever means necessary to fulfill their needs. So the problem is still there.

[Krugerrand]

Ok, fair enough. But I don't think you realize how desperate people become when it comes to buying drugs. Even if it only cost $10 to buy a gram of cocaine (I have no idea what the going prices are btw, but I'm pretty sure it's more than that) then the user will do pretty much whatever it takes to come up with that $10. If they have a job which pays enough to support their habit along with their daily life than great, everything works out. But if that person uses more than they can compensate for then they resort to whatever means necessary to fulfill their needs. So the problem is still there.

If it were legal, charitable groups technically could supply addicts by private donations.

[Dr.3D]

Ok, fair enough. But I don't think you realize how desperate people become when it comes to buying drugs. Even if it only cost $10 to buy a gram of cocaine (I have no idea what the going prices are btw, but I'm pretty sure it's more than that) then the user will do pretty much whatever it takes to come up with that $10. If they have a job which pays enough to support their habit along with their daily life than great, everything works out. But if that person uses more than they can compensate for then they resort to whatever means necessary to fulfill their needs. So the problem is still there.
Well, let's look at Pot.
If everybody could grow their own Pot, the market would dry up nearly completely. So what is better, to have a war on Pot and have police and other elements breaking down doors and violating the rights of the people, or let people use it and stop the violence?

[SamuraisWisdom]

If it were legal, charitable groups technically could supply addicts by private donations.

That's wishful thinking. It might happen on a small scale but would probably not cover everybody.

But we're getting away from my argument that revolves around addiction vs free will.

[SamuraisWisdom]

Well, let's look at Pot.
If everybody could grow their own Pot, the market would dry up nearly completely. So what is better, to have a war on Pot and have police and other elements breaking down doors and violating the rights of the people, or let people use it and stop the violence?

Again, my argument is against those substances that are physically addicting. Marijuana does not fall into that category.

[Dr.3D]

Again, my argument is against those substances that are physically addicting. Marijuana does not fall into that category.
Okay, then back to Cocaine. If the price drops even by 50%, that would mean at least 50% less crime associated with obtaining it. Am I not correct?

[SamuraisWisdom]

Okay, then back to Cocaine. If the price drops even by 50%, that would mean at least 50% less crime associated with obtaining it. Am I not correct?

No, that is probably not correct. And it still strays from my argument of addictive substances being banned because they're physically addictive. Economics has nothing to do with it.

[Dr.3D]

No, that is probably not correct. And it still strays from my argument of addictive substances being banned because they're physically addictive. Economics has nothing to do with it.

Like hell it doesn't. Economics has everything to do with it. If the government couldn't make a dime from making something illegal, they wouldn't bother doing so. Why do you suppose there is a tax on alcohol and tobacco? It's because the government has decided it is a great way for it to make money.

As I said before, I'm damned tired of being protected from myself.

[SamuraisWisdom]

Like hell it doesn't. Economics has everything to do with it. If the government couldn't make a dime from making something illegal, they wouldn't bother doing so. Why do you suppose there is a tax on alcohol and tobacco? It's because the government has decided it is a great way for it to make money.

As I said before, I'm damned tired of being protected from myself.

Ok, I'll agree to disagree because you're avoiding my argument entirely.

[Dr.3D]

Ok, I'll agree to disagree because you're avoiding my argument entirely.

Okay, we disagree. I believe you like the violence associated with "the war on drugs".

[Echoes]

I cant believe im seeing a tobacco banner on a Ron Paul forum. In a way that's good news, who said this wasnt a big-tent movement ? :)

[Mr.Magnanimous]

...

[Dr.3D]

I cant believe im seeing a tobacco banner on a Ron Paul forum. In a way that's good news, who said this wasnt a big-tent movement ? :)

Oh just wait till tobacco costs 10 times what it costs now. Instead of being able to afford to buy a pack of cigarettes, those nicotine addicts are going to be killing people to get enough money to buy their next fix.


/s

[Echoes]

Oh just wait till tobacco costs 10 times what it costs now. Instead of being able to afford to buy a pack of cigarettes, those nicotine addicts are going to be killing people to get enough money to buy their next fix.


/s

But Samurai would say who cares how much violence spills out on the streets, like it did during Prohibition. And who cares about the economics of it all, and the Police State required to enforce the new laws. It's an addiction, people have 'NO CHOICE' (LOL) we need the Govt Mafia to go after them useless drug addicts and cigarette smokers.

[specsaregood]

Ah Iceland. The only place in the world where you can have a plate of puffin for lunch and a whale steak for dinner. Please don't go down this nanny state road, I had high hopes of visiting someday.

[Napoleon's Shadow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8WIj1_cNdE

[DamianTV]

Good move by Iceland. You guys may not like it, but there's certain drugs that SHOULD be illegal. Any drug that is naturally addictive (ie nicotine, heroin, cocaine, etc) should be illegal because they may be a choice the first time, but after a while it stops becoming a choice and that goes against free will. Not everybody knows the consequences of using addictive drugs either. However, I do agree with Ron and Gary when they say that drug users should be treated like patients instead of criminals.

Nay. Bad Idea.

Any time that you make something Illegal, you Create a Black Market for it.

The end result of you getting your wish of imposing your belief that people should not smoke on others is that we will end up with Tobacco Cartels, Tobacco Families, Tobacco Related Crimes, and all of which are a lot worse than the harmful effects of cigarettes. It is a persons choice to smoke or not smoke and no one should be able to take that choice away. However, you wont get much of a choice when two waring Tobacco Dealers decide to have an all out Street War and you get shot, I think the Bullet to the Body is a bit more deadly than any cigarette. Hell, we've raised taxes on cigarettes so high now that we already have Black Markets appearing everywhere for cheaper Tobacco products. And we want to press the issue until it becomes Violent? That level of violence will spread to every street corner on the Planet.

Be Careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

[Bordillo]

the government knows best.......

whether or not there are drugs that are that are that dangerous, giving the government the power to say what you can and can't do with your OWN body is scarier to me than becoming addicted to heroin

[DamianTV]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMIgT_NGgek

Just because it is legalized doesnt mean you will start using it.