China is taking over US projects - China to build San Francisco bridge!

[Delegate2]

SHANGHAI — Talk about outsourcing.

At a sprawling manufacturing complex here, hundreds of Chinese laborers are now completing work on the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.

Next month, the last four of more than two dozen giant steel modules — each with a roadbed segment about half the size of a football field — will be loaded onto a huge ship and transported 6,500 miles to Oakland. There, they will be assembled to fit into the eastern span of the new Bay Bridge.

The project is part of China’s continual move up the global economic value chain — from cheap toys to Apple iPads to commercial jetliners — as it aims to become the world’s civil engineer.

The assembly work in California, and the pouring of the concrete road surface, will be done by Americans. But construction of the bridge decks and the materials that went into them are a Made in China affair. California officials say the state saved hundreds of millions of dollars by turning to China.

“They’ve produced a pretty impressive bridge for us,” Tony Anziano, a program manager at the California Department of Transportation, said a few weeks ago. He was touring the 1.2-square-mile manufacturing site that the Chinese company created to do the bridge work. “Four years ago, there were just steel plates here and lots of orange groves.”



More : http://www.hermancainforums.com/index.php?topic=189.0

[hard@work]

Herman Cain supported TARP morally and economically, was actually employed by the federal reserve, and immorally lies to the public about his past beliefs.

[tpreitzel]

See, the globalists ("free-traders") view the US as a place to leave (which it currently is) because of the outsourcing of manufacturing (skilled jobs) and wealth while protectionists (free-trade among the states of the union) view the US as a place to enter (which it used to be). If one is living in a country of great wealth and very low unemployment, who wants to leave? ;)

[libertybrewcity]

CHINA EAT YOU!! nom nom nom

[Imaginos]

We should RE-learn the basic 101 of capitalism from the Chinese.
Work, save, invest and go back to work and repeat the whole cycle over and over again.
THAT is capitalism.
Printing money like there's no tomorrow is not capitalism/

[Imaginos]

And one more item of the basic 101 of capitalism.
Hate to work?
Then do not eat!

[Rifleman]

We are outsourcing bridge building now?

[Anti Federalist]

We should RE-learn the basic 101 of capitalism from the Chinese.
Work, save, invest and go back to work and repeat the whole cycle over and over again.
THAT is capitalism.
Printing money like there's no tomorrow is not capitalism/

If communist, authoritarian China = "capitalism" then, tell you what, I'll pass.

<<<looking for a better way.

[Anti Federalist]

We are outsourcing bridge building now?

Why the hell not? I'd bet we don't even have the high tensile steel making facilities to build one anymore.

On to a better, brighter future building Big Macs.

[Jeremy]

Herman Cain supported TARP morally and economically, was actually employed by the federal reserve, and immorally lies to the public about his past beliefs.
When did he lie about supporting TARP?

[Imaginos]

If communist, authoritarian China = "capitalism" then, tell you what, I'll pass.

<<<looking for a better way.
Individual human rights issue makes China certainly not a democratic country.
However, as a country, the way China handle the international issues (especially natural resource investment around the globe) is de facto CAPITALISM.
I don't care about their human rights issue since it's none of my business.
However I surely hope that our idiots in Washington should learn the way to deal with other countries and how to save and invest from China.
Bombing and killing people all around the world does more harm than good.
Gaining advantage by making friends and doing amicable business is the way to go.

[wgadget]

Weather...? What about the weather?

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/11/china-leads-wea/

AND...I hear they have a big part in high-speed rail in CA...We really shouldn't be surprised.

[Velho]

China has an interesting system these days, since it's basically "central capitalism". The private sector is larger than for example in many European countries, but the state can still act like a dictatorship; take over businesses and reverse reforms simply if it feels like it's in the country's interest. It's all focused on achieving as much growth as possible as fast as possible, without breaking the system, and if the regular guy is in the way it's his job to step aside.

[Anti Federalist]

China has an interesting system these days, since it's basically "central capitalism". The private sector is larger than for example in many European countries, but the state can still act like a dictatorship; take over businesses and reverse reforms simply if it feels like it's in the country's interest. It's all focused on achieving as much growth as possible as fast as possible, without breaking the system, and if the regular guy is in the way it's his job to step aside.

Yeah, sounds great, doesn't it?

The State Uber Alles.

[Danke]

China is taking over US projects - China to build San Francisco bridge!


Sounds safe...


http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/images/stories/large/2009/07/06/china-apartment-resized.jpg

[Velho]

Yeah, sounds great, doesn't it?

The State Uber Alles.

Most of the people aren't complaining though, western mass consumerism has become like a drug over there. It's not gonna be pretty if/once all of these big boys in the east grow up to "modern standards". It's also interesting to note that there's talk of democratic reform in China. It's not gonna turn into a democracy overnight, they are taking baby steps to see how it works, if it results in even more growth etc, but it's better than nothing.

[Sentient Void]

If communist, authoritarian China = "capitalism" then, tell you what, I'll pass.

China is *NOT* communist. If it takes less time to start a business in China than it does in the US, and we have scores of tens of thousands of economic regulations more than China - what does that make the US? Prominent Chinese economist Zhang Weiyin, who is known in China for his advocacy of free market reforms, is an Austrian economist.

Sheesh, AF.

Of course they are authoritarian in the civil liberties part, but their economics is far, far from communist. Especially relative to the US.

[Sentient Void]

Most of the people aren't complaining though, western mass consumerism has become like a drug over there. It's not gonna be pretty if/once all of these big boys in the east grow up to "modern standards". It's also interesting to note that there's talk of democratic reform in China. It's not gonna turn into a democracy overnight, they are taking baby steps to see how it works, if it results in even more growth etc, but it's better than nothing.

If they were smart they'd go extremely limited constitutional monarchy or oligarchy instead and forego democracy completely.

HHH nods.

[Anti Federalist]

China is *NOT* communist. If it takes less time to start a business in China than it does in the US, and we have scores of tens of thousands of economic regulations more than China - what does that make the US? Prominent Chinese economist Zhang Weiyin, who is known in China for his advocacy of free market reforms, is an Austrian economist.

Sheesh, AF.

Of course they are authoritarian in the civil liberties part, but their economics is far, far from communist. Especially relative to the US.

Umm, communist?

Duh.

;)

[Brian4Liberty]

Why the hell not? I'd bet we don't even have the high tensile steel making facilities to build one anymore.


The Chinese may not either, but it will be close enough for government work...

[Anti Federalist]

Most of the people aren't complaining though, western mass consumerism has become like a drug over there. It's not gonna be pretty if/once all of these big boys in the east grow up to "modern standards". It's also interesting to note that there's talk of democratic reform in China. It's not gonna turn into a democracy overnight, they are taking baby steps to see how it works, if it results in even more growth etc, but it's better than nothing.

Yes, it is amazing how much tyranny a people will put up with, just so long as they surrounded by cheap consumer trinkets, isn't it?

They learned a lesson well from our masters.

[Velho]

If they were smart they'd go extremely limited constitutional monarchy or oligarchy instead and forego democracy completely.

HHH nods.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. The average guy, especially in the cities, is apparently quite fond of the system. Western democracies on the other hand are seen as a bureaucratic mess that limits growth. I guess there's no point in complaining as long as you get richer..

[Anti Federalist]

The Chinese may not either, but it will be close enough for government work...

Yay!

If they make bridges they way the make cargo lashings, chain, hand tools and binders...

http://rainbows.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451f6f769e2013485908f28970c-250wi

[Sentient Void]

Yay!

If they make bridges they way the make cargo lashings, chain, hand tools and binders...

http://rainbows.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451f6f769e2013485908f28970c-250wi

I don't know what you're talking about. Chinese goods I've purchased on average have been cheaper and at least as good quality as American made goods.

American made goods aren't so impressive. And they are much mroe expensive than they're worth. Look at GM for chrissakes. Great example.

I have no tribalist feelings towards such things. I'm interested in raising *my* standard of living, not subsidizing the failure of others due to tribalist BS.

Tribalism doesn't do individuals any favor. Nor does it do the free market any favors.

[Brian4Liberty]

And I've bought US made parts that were both better and less expensive than the Chinese made versions. It actually happens, despite propaganda to the contrary.

[AFPVet]

What it all boils down to is QC/QA—Quality control and assurance. If a product line has high quality control, it doesn't matter where it is produced except for the fact that it hurts our economy.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't know what you're talking about. Chinese goods I've purchased on average have been cheaper and at least as good quality as American made goods.

Last year, IIRC, a man was killed in our business when a Chinese made chain lifting strap failed, dropping an overhead load on him.

We are prohibited from using Chinese made chain, binders, hooks, lifting straps or shackles onboard my vessel because of their well documented inferior quality.

You get what you pay for, even when buying from a prison economy.

And I don't know if I'd call it "tribalism", perhaps just human nature.

You're pretty much right down the road from me, I'd care more about what happens to you than to somebody 12000 miles away.

Sad but true.

ETA - Belay that last. No, it's not sad, at all, you should care more about your neighbors than somebody halfway around the world.

[Sentient Void]

And I've bought US made parts that were both better and less expensive than the Chinese made versions. It actually happens, despite propaganda to the contrary.

Not saying it never happens. I would say however that it is extraordinarily rare relative to Chinese goods being cheaper and at least as good quality. It's very specific industries, and it's due to US domestic economic policy.

Hell, most (if not all) services would be not only of lower quality and certainly more expensive to get from China. This is due to the structure of our economy and other comparative advantages.

Point being, there are very specific and pointed (and legitimate) economic reasons for why our economy relies so much on cheaper/good quality Chinese goods. The Chinese are propping our economy up - without them, our standards of living would be *significantly* lower. The rippling opportunity costs to bring Chinese goods to the level of cost of equivalent US goods (through tariffs) would be devastating to our economy and standards of living.

Anyone for 'fair trade' or tariffs on 'Chinese goods' are ultimately for taxing US citizens. This is antifreemarket and antifreedom.

Being in a Ron Paul forum, being for 'fair trade' is also not a Ron Paul position.

[Anti Federalist]

Anyone for 'fair trade' or tariffs on 'Chinese goods' are ultimately for taxing US citizens. This is antifreemarket and antifreedom.

Being in a Ron Paul forum, this is also not a Ron Paul position.

Ron Paul supports and defends the Constitution.

Tariffs and duties were the only taxes specifically mentioned in the constitution prior to the criminal 16th amendment.

[Rifleman]

What it all boils down to is QC/QA—Quality control and assurance. If a product line has high quality control, it doesn't matter where it is produced except for the fact that it hurts our economy.

I will gladly pay a higher price if it's a quality product and made here at home.

[Sentient Void]

Last year, IIRC, a man was killed in our business when a Chinese made chain lifting strap failed, dropping an overhead load on him.

We are prohibited from using Chinese made chain, binders, hooks, lifting straps or shackles onboard my vessel because of their well documented inferior quality.

I could equally come up with whipping boy arguments against gun control and even individual freedom and liberty all day long. Progressives and liberals do all the time. It doesn't make it a consequentially (nor morally) legitimate position to be against gun control and individual freedom.


You get what you pay for, even when buying from a prison economy.

Yes, and the market (and by the market, I mean individuals in the aggregate) has rightly decided that what we pay for from China is better than what we would pay for from here in America. If that wasn't the case - we would be buying the equivalents in America instead.


And I don't know if I'd call it "tribalism", perhaps just human nature.

No, it's trialism to 'want to buy American'. 'Wanting to buy American' is not human nature. Human nature is wanting to maximize one's individual standard of living. This does not fall in line with 'wanting to buy American'. Maximizing one's standard of living through buying the best value in dollars is much closer to human nature. Theory shows this (praxeology, austrian economics), and market evidence all around you illustrates this fact as well.


You're pretty much right down the road from me, I'd care more about what happens to you than to somebody 12000 miles away.

Sad but true.

ETA - Belay that last. No, it's not sad, at all, you should care more about your neighbors than somebody halfway around the world.

Of course, but we don't buy goods and services because we 'care about people down the street more than people on the other side of the world'. I think this is obvious. I and rationally thinking individuals buy goods and services to increase the standard of living of themselves and that of their family.

The free market (and by extension, free trade) is the solution. Not the government, which is what you are advocating. 'Fair trade' is not only economically destructive, but it's inherently immoral for you to stand in front of me and not allow me to voluntarily trade with who I wish on my own terms.

[Sentient Void]

I will gladly pay a higher price if it's a quality product and made here at home.

I *guarantee* that your words here do not match up with your actions. Look around your house - this is enough evidence to illustrate this.

Not only that, but I don't think you realize how much more expensive American made goods equivalent to Chinese made goods would be. It's not only going to be a few bucks...

Try thinking more along the lines of many, many times more expensive in many cases. You can thank US domestic economic policy for that.

[Sentient Void]

Ron Paul supports and defends the Constitution.

Tariffs and duties were the only taxes specifically mentioned in the constitution prior to the criminal 16th amendment.

Ron Paul is for maximizing free trade regardless of anything. He's stated this numerous times.

He supports the Constitution when it is convenient for libertarianism and free markets. This much is obvious. He uses the Constitution when it's convenient to garner support amongst liberals and conservatives (especially conservatives) in ways that they like. He knows how to appeal to the right people.

Notice how he doesn't support slavery, as per the Constitution. If you respond, "Well slavery was abolished in an amendment" - then I'll just respond, "Well, if you feel amendments in and of themselves make things legitimate part of the Constitution, then the income tax should be legitimate, as well as 17th amendment which is direct election of Senators."

I hope this exposes Constitution fetishism in the face of principles of liberty as inconsistent and ultimately meaningless.

Of course, I still <3 you, AF ;)

[tpreitzel]

I will gladly pay a higher price if it's a quality product and made here at home.

I bought a Currie LiFePo4 battery pack for one of my electric bicycles recently which was designed and manufactured in the US. I'm impressed with the outstanding quality of the battery and workmanship along with the decent price.

[Imaginos]

The most important thing from this post, IMHO, is...
Whenever we see someone/ something/ some other country/ etc., if there's some good thing, we can learn from it then move on.
In terms of handling international business affairs and natural resource investment, the Chinese have been very shrewd just like Ron Paul said many times.
We need to at least analyze and learn the shrewed aspect of China because they have been successfully obtaining various natural resources without even firing a single bullet.
Considering that we've been bankrupting our country in the name of obtaining oil and natural resources spreading democracy (cough) by bombing and killing people, the Chinese' strategy seems very shrewed.
And that particular aspect, I think we can analyze and learn something from their international-relation strategy.

[Rifleman]

I *guarantee* that your words here do not match up with your actions. Look around your house - this is enough evidence to illustrate this.

Not only that, but I don't think you realize how much more expensive American made goods equivalent to Chinese made goods would be. It's not only going to be a few bucks...

Try thinking more along the lines of many, many times more expensive in many cases. You can thank US domestic economic policy for that.

I realize I can't buy everything made in the USA but I have attempted it in the past 6 months. I'm also moving in my new home in a couple months and I'm determined to furnish it with as many American made products as possible. The key is to buy only what you need and buy quality.

I wish I could find a 12V cell phone charger made here as I have gone through about 8 in the past year.

[Tarzan]

SHANGHAI — Talk about outsourcing.

When California spends itself into socialist oblivion... then turns to the US Government for relief... and our 'lawmakers' turn to the tax payer... our unemployed steel workers can turn out their pockets to show they can't help. But, what they heck, the Fed can just print some more monopoly money... or borrow it from... oh, I don't know... maybe China?

Perhaps this is a good thing. If China is going to own us let's make them do all the work and build our bridges and other infrastructure.

:rolleyes:

[HOLLYWOOD]

The Chinese may not either, but it will be close enough for government work... How much is the Bay Bridge Refit over budget? From $780 Million to now an est. $7.2 Billion and 6 years behind schedule. Big Dig WEST - Government WooHoo!


The new Bay Bridge, expected to open to traffic in 2013, will replace a structure that has never been quite the same since the 1989 Bay Area earthquake. At $7.2 billion, it will be one of the most expensive structures ever built. But California officials estimate that they will save at least $400 million by having so much of the work done in China. (California issued bonds to finance the project, and will look to recoup the cost through tolls.)So, how much in cost overruns?

Original estimated cost: $780 Million updated to
1997: $1.7 Billion after contractor bids
2003: $2.6 Billion after increase in material costs
2005: $5.2 Billion

Today completion date: 2013, estimated cost $7.2 Billion and 6 years behind schedule with Signature Span REMOVED!

Checkit out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_span_replacement_of_the_San_Francisco_%E2% 80%93_Oakland_Bay_Bridge


Construction begins

After more than a decade of study, construction began on a replacement for the cantilever portion of the bridge on January 29 (http://www.bookrags.com/January_29), 2002 (http://www.bookrags.com/2002), with completion originally slated for 2007. The new eastern "signature" span was to feature a pair of side-by-side, five-lane concrete viaducts linking to a single-towered, self-supporting suspension span (http://www.bookrags.com/Self-anchored_suspension_bridge) between the viaducts. If completed, this would have become the largest bridge of this type. The approach viaducts from the eastern shore are currently being constructed just north of and parallel to the existing span. The grade of the new approach to the channel span is somewhat less than that of the present structure.


Construction is delayed

A price shock The authorities were shocked when they opened the bids on the proposed tower portion, as there was only a single bid and it was considerably more expensive (US$1.4 billion) than their estimate ($780 million), partially because of a recent and unexpected rise both in the cost of steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel) and of concrete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete). As both concrete and structural steel are now commodities within the worldwide market, the prices were much higher than expected because of the current building boom throughout China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China). (China was then consuming 40 percent of worldwide cement production.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_span_replacement_of_the_San_Francisco_%E2% 80%93_Oakland_Bay_Bridge#cite_note-World_Steel_Association-12)) Another qualified potential bidder did not bid due to a number of construction uncertainties owing to the innovative design—another likely contribution to the very high bid. The entire project, which will require 100,000 tons of structural steel, is now expected to cost $6.2 billion (as of July 2005), up from a 1997 estimate of $1.1 billion (for a simple viaduct) and a March 2003 estimate of $2.6 billion that included a tower span.


On December 10, 2004, the governor's office announced that the signature span concept had been scrappedhttp://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/demotivators/governmentdemotivationalposter.jpg

[AFPVet]

I will gladly pay a higher price if it's a quality product and made here at home.

Me too.

[axiomata]

The project is part of China’s continual move up the global economic value chain — from cheap toys to Apple iPads to commercial jetliners — as it aims to become the world’s civil engineer.

Civil Engineering is a service industry, and the engineering for this bridge was done in the US by Caltrans, American Bridge and Flour. I don't see why the manufacturing can't be done in China if the engineers that are liable inspect and approve the manufacturing materials and techniques.

In my line of work we frequently specify Chinese structural steel to save money but we only order from plants where we have our own QA people on the floor in China.

[Anti Federalist]

I could equally come up with whipping boy arguments against gun control and even individual freedom and liberty all day long. Progressives and liberals do all the time. It doesn't make it a consequentially (nor morally) legitimate position to be against gun control and individual freedom.

Straw man, my brother.

Liberals want to ban guns, not because they are materially faulty in their construction, far from from it, they want them banned because they do function well at precisely what they were designed and built for.

Speaking of which, there were a number of firearms related injuries when the first wave of Norinco, Chinese made rifles starting coming here in the early 90s.


Yes, and the market (and by the market, I mean individuals in the aggregate) has rightly decided that what we pay for from China is better than what we would pay for from here in America. If that wasn't the case - we would be buying the equivalents in America instead.

Once again demonstrating the "democratic tyranny" of the market.

What of my consumer choice, that maybe does not want to follow the mob mentality?


Of course, but we don't buy goods and services because we 'care about people down the street more than people on the other side of the world'. I think this is obvious. I and rationally thinking individuals buy goods and services to increase the standard of living of themselves and that of their family.

I don't see it this way at all.

We all make market choices based on things other than the bottom line.

Would you, given an equal choice in price and quality, do business with somebody that is donating time and money to Ron Paul, or someone who is donating time and money to, I dunno, the Brady Campaign or Barack Obama's re-election?


The free market (and by extension, free trade) is the solution. Not the government, which is what you are advocating. 'Fair trade' is not only economically destructive, but it's inherently immoral for you to stand in front of me and not allow me to voluntarily trade with who I wish on my own terms.

See above. You have already made that choice for me, through market choices (market choices distorted by government) that do not allow me my choice to buy what I like.

Like an American made TV for instance.


Of course, I still <3 you, AF

Nothing but the same back to you, you know that.

I'm telling you, one of these days we gotta meet up for drinks and thrash this out in person.

[tpreitzel]

When California spends itself into socialist oblivion... then turns to the US Government for relief... and our 'lawmakers' turn to the tax payer... our unemployed steel workers can turn out their pockets to show they can't help. But, what they heck, the Fed can just print some more monopoly money... or borrow it from... oh, I don't know... maybe China?

Perhaps this is a good thing. If China is going to own us let's make them do all the work and build our bridges and other infrastructure.

:rolleyes:

Everybody keeps complaining about jobs ... Should I scratch my head like balding "free-traders"? ;)

[Sentient Void]

Straw man, my brother.

Liberals want to ban guns, not because they are materially faulty in their construction, far from from it, they want them banned because they do function well at precisely what they were designed and built for.

It's not a strawman. The reasoning behind the whipping boy as to why you want something banned or highly regulated is irrelevant. The point is that you'
re using a whipping boy which is not at all representative or reflective of Chinese imports. The same thing goes for liberals tryign to ban or highly regulate guns, or the free market - due to whipping boy arguments.


Once again demonstrating the "democratic tyranny" of the market.

What of my consumer choice, that maybe does not want to follow the mob mentality?

'Democratic tyranny of the market'? Comon, man - seriously. Do you realize what you're saying? Do you realize the logical implications, the *Orwellian* implications of referring to the free market as 'tyrannical'?

I don't see how it can at all be justified with any sense of liberty in mind that people not offering you a product or service you specifically want is 'tyrannical'. Are you saying you are entitled to people making things you want, in the manner you want? That you're entitled to make others provide something for you? Who is the one engaging in the tyranny here, you - or them? You really need to think about this rationally.

Not to mention, you have the choice in a free market to live any which way you want. To get the goods you want in any which manner you like. If you feel you want something that the market isn't offering, you can certainly make it yourself, or start a business to make it. If your business fails and couldn't compete, however - do you feel you would be entitled to force others to purchase your product in order to keep you afloat?

The free market isn't tyranny. The only one advocating tyranny here is you. Freedom is not slavery, AF. :(



I don't see it this way at all.

We all make market choices based on things other than the bottom line.

Would you, given an equal choice in price and quality, do business with somebody that is donating time and money to Ron Paul, or someone who is donating time and money to, I dunno, the Brady Campaign or Barack Obama's re-election?

Of course I would support the RP guy - but that's because you've *eliminated* the 'bottom line' from the equation in your hypothetical here! This actually shows how much stronger my position is here - since the only way you could make this hypothetical work is by eliminating the 'bottom line'.

But if a RP supporter was offering Ron Paul bumper stickers for 2-3 times the price of an Obama supporter selling RP stickers - I would *absolutely* purchase the RP stickers from the Obama supporter instead. Then I'd donate the rest of the money to the RP campaign - or buy more RP paraphernalia with the leftover money ;)

Which brings to another point... if you understood the implications, importance and rippling effects of 'opportunity costs' - you would understand how destructive 'fair trade' policies are. To everyone.

Look, people make value judgements. If it was American made and only a few cents more expensive - I'd buy American. But this is absolutely not the case, and the argument isn't revolving around such a small degree of difference in cost - it's revolving around tribalism vs the free market.




See above. You have already made that choice for me, through market choices (market choices distorted by government) that do not allow me my choice to buy what I like.

Like an American made TV for instance.

I haven't made any choice for you. I've made it for myself. Businesses make free choices based on who patronizes them. Don't blame me, or the business, for distortions the government causes in raising the prices for everything, and don't punish me nor the business by advocating for MORE government to impose more of it's and your will on me and the business to engage in the little freedom of association and trade we have left.

Again, you ahve the freedom to buy or not buy. To create for yourself, or to start a business. Just don't claim 'tyranny' when no one wants to patronize your business because your shit is much, much too expensive or of too low quality - and don't force us all to subsidize your business to prop you up, which is essentially what you're asking for.




Nothing but the same back to you, you know that.

I'm telling you, one of these days we gotta meet up for drinks and thrash this out in person.

Yessir, one of these days.

[Sentient Void]

Everybody keeps complaining about jobs ... Should I scratch my head like balding "free-traders"? ;)

Free traders aren't scratching their heads. China has been making our goods for many years now - and we've generally had pretty low unemployment. It wasn't until recently that we've lost jobs, and it's been due to the recession and government causing wage and price stickiness, not because of free trade.

To say it's because of 'free trade' shows a significant lack of understanding in economics and 'opportunity costs'.

I must beg that everyone concerned with free trade start by reading 'Economics in One Lesson' by Henry Hazlitt. Please.

"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance." - Murray Rothbard

[shenlu54]

Hi,from free market view,this is good for America,as you can use less taxpayers' money to build better bridge.

[Vessol]

If communist, authoritarian China = "capitalism" then, tell you what, I'll pass.

<<<looking for a better way.

I'd say that, currently speaking, that Communist Authoritarian China is more friendly to capitalism and free markets than the Western world is, as sad as that is.

They are in the stage where the Western world was in the 19th century. They are lowering taxes and slowly giving more economic freedoms to their 'people'. This will increase prosperity. Eventually, the same thing that happened to the Western world will happen to China, and they will bribe off people and waste away all that production. It's the vicious cycle of Human Farming.

[Sentient Void]

Hi,from free market view,this is good for America,as you can use less taxpayers' money to build better bridge.

Absolutely. In regard to the bridge thing in the OP (apart from the whole free trade vs fair trade debate), it's really that simple.

Allegedly being from China - how do you feel about the trade relationship between China and the US btw? About free trade vs fair trade between the two countries?

[tpreitzel]

Free traders aren't scratching their heads. China has been making our goods for many years now - and we've generally had pretty low unemployment. It wasn't until recently that we've lost jobs, and it's been due to the recession and government causing wage and price stickiness, not because of free trade.

To say it's because of 'free trade' shows a significant lack of understanding in economics and 'opportunity costs'.

I must beg that everyone concerned with free trade start by reading 'Economics in One Lesson' by Henry Hazlitt. Please.

"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance." - Murray Rothbard

Wow! ;) No, since "China has been making our goods", we've OBVIOUSLY lost jobs as a result and transferred our wealth in the process. Might the "pretty low unemployment" be due to declining overall skills in the workforce and especially workers accepting jobs unrelated to their primary skills? Here's an "Economics in One Lesson" for you: Shed your bias and travel around the US and observe ..... the consequences of "free trade" and fiat currencies, a marriage made in hell. Spare me your lecture and take Rothbard's advice. You need it. ;)

[Sentient Void]

Wow! ;) No, since "China has been making our goods", we've OBVIOUSLY lost jobs as a result and transferred our wealth in the process.

Wow, indeed. You *seriously* need to learn yourself some Austrian economics as opposed to relying on superficial observations and positivistic dogma. You see, or choose to see, what is only on the surface, and seem unable to consider all variables in the equation. You blame 'free trade' erroneously and ignorant of the facts.

Based on your thinking above, it seems if it were up to you, we should have saved the lost jobs of the ice delivery man industry and the horse and buggy industry when they were replaced by the refrigerator and car industry.

We haven't 'obviously lost jobs'. There is always work to be done. Demands are virtually infinite. As jobs are completed more productively by others, it frees up jobs for people to complete on other things to meet the new demands of the market (freed up through lowered 'opportunity costs').


Might the "pretty low unemployment" be due to declining overall skills in the workforce and especially workers accepting jobs unrelated to their primary skills?

Um, on the contrary, our workforce is one of, if not the, most skilled in the world. Workers accept jobs unrelated to their primary skills because their skills became obsolete or demand is lacking, and labor as well as capital sometimes must be reallocated according to supply and demand.

Once again, an example is that of the ice delivery man and the horse and buggy industry. These people lost all of their jobs. Their labor needed to be reallocated. When they lost their jobs - did unemployment permanently rise? No - because they got new jobs and retrained their skills for different industries, and new jobs were created for the new refrigerator and car industries.


Here's an "Economics in One Lesson" for you: Shed your bias and travel around the US and observe ..... the consequences of "free trade" and fiat currencies, a marriage made in hell. Spare me your lecture and take Rothbard's advice. You need it. ;)

'Observation' (in which you clearly don't understand concepts such as correlation fallacies and hidden variables) and your failed positivistic dogma are irrelevant to understanding sound economics. If you knew what you were talking about you would understand this is a central tenet of the austrian economists (Mises, Menger, Hayek, Rathbard, et al).

And 'take Rothbard's advice'? What alleged advice is this? It surely isn't in advocating 'fair trade' or anything of the sort that you support. He's an *ardent* free trader - as is any true free market and liberty advocate. If you're referring to my quote - you've clearly shown you have no clue what you're talking about. Bastiat, Rothbard, Mises, Ron Paul, and many, many other intelligent and knowledgable economists are weeping horrendously at what you're advocating right now. As Rothbard said, and I'm paraphrasing, learn at least basic economics or keep quiet.

You would advocate 'fair trade' policies that would devastate our economy and reallocate resources in a way that would make us all poorer and live a lower standard of living. Once again, educate yourself, then you can speak with some level of authority on the subject.

[tpreitzel]

Wow, indeed. You *seriously* need to learn yourself some Austrian economics as opposed to relying on superficial observations and positivistic dogma. You see, or choose to see, what is only on the surface, and seem unable to consider all variables in the equation. You blame 'free trade' erroneously and ignorant of the facts.

Based on your thinking above, it seems if it were up to you, we should have saved the lost jobs of the ice delivery man industry and the horse and buggy industry when they were replaced by the refrigerator and car industry.

Such amazing inaccuracy for such an "enlightened" individual ... Your bias is entrenched. ;)



We haven't 'obviously lost jobs'. There is always work to be done. Demands are virtually infinite. As jobs are completed more productively by others, it frees up jobs for people to complete on other things to meet the new demands of the market (freed up through lowered 'opportunity costs'). So US workers still have those jobs making goods which "China has been making our goods for many years now" ..... Sure ... ;)





Um, on the contrary, our workforce is one of, if not the, most skilled in the world. Workers accept jobs unrelated to their primary skills because their skills became obsolete or demand is lacking, and labor as well as capital sometimes must be reallocated according to supply and demand.What might cause "skills became obsolete or demand is lacking"? "Free trade", perhaps? ;)



Once again, an example is that of the ice delivery man and the horse and buggy industry. These people lost all of their jobs. Their labor needed to be reallocated. When they lost their jobs - did unemployment permanently rise? No - because they got new jobs and retrained their skills for different industries, and new jobs were created for the new refrigerator and car industries.
Nah, really? With the great sucking sound of jobs leaving the country, those re-trainees likely got the shaft in lower paying jobs.



'Observation' (in which you clearly don't understand concepts such as correlation fallacies and hidden variables) and your failed positivistic dogma are irrelevant to understanding sound economics. If you knew what you were talking about you would understand this is a central tenet of the austrian economists (Mises, Menger, Hayek, Rathbard, et al).Oh, you mean your "positivistic dogma", i.e. bias, prevents you actually understanding what you read.



And 'take Rothbard's advice'? What alleged advice is this? It surely isn't in advocating 'fair trade' or anything of the sort that you support. He's an *ardent* free trader - as is any true free market and liberty advocate. If you're referring to my quote - you've clearly shown you have no clue what you're talking about. Bastiat, Rothbard, Mises, Ron Paul, and many, many other intelligent and knowledgable economists are weeping horrendously at what you're advocating right now. As Rothbard said, and I'm paraphrasing, learn at least basic economics or keep quiet.Duh, Rothbard's advice as you quoted, perhaps?



You would advocate 'fair trade' policies that would devastate our economy and reallocate resources in a way that would make us all poorer and live a lower standard of living. Once again, educate yourself, then you can speak with some level of authority on the subject.Uh, no the policy I recommend had worked well for over a century in the US. A debt-based currency and "free trade" is an unholy alliance which is rapidly transferring wealth out of this country. You are apparently an "enlightened" ignoramus who really needs to take periodic trips into the real world....

[Vessol]

bunch of stuff

Didn't really ready what you said..but I know one thing that I did see....WOO AD HOMINEM'S!

[shenlu54]

Allegedly being from China - how do you feel about the trade relationship between China and the US btw? About free trade vs fair trade between the two countries?

I'm a Ron Paul supporter,you know my position.;)

The 'fair trade' problem is in fact the fiat currency problem,the solution should be either one country or both countries adobting gold standard.

[tpreitzel]

Didn't really ready what you said..but I know one thing that I did see....WOO AD HOMINEM'S!

Source, please? There goes a part of your "reputation" unless you can cite my alleged use of this phrase. ;) I don't write terms like "bunch of stuff". Are you inventing something perhaps? In fact, I can't EVER recall using such a phrase prior to this unfortunate incident .;)

[tpreitzel]

Source, please? There goes a part of your "reputation" unless you can cite my alleged use of this phrase. ;) I don't write terms like "bunch of stuff". Are you inventing something perhaps? In fact, I can't EVER recall using such a phrase prior to this unfortunate incident ;)

Time is rapidly expiring, Vessol ... ;)

[tpreitzel]

I think nearly 30 minutes is enough time, Vessol, for you to respond to my request for a citation. You have been CAUGHT manufacturing words which I have NOT written. This thread will be retained by me as an example of your total lack of integrity.

[Vessol]

Did you just negative rep me, tpreitzel, simply because I condensed your post and did not quote it in its entirety as to avoid spam?

[tpreitzel]

Did you just negative rep me, tpreitzel, simply because I condensed your post and did not quote it in its entirety as to avoid spam?

Again, cite my alleged use of phrase in whole or part. Try reading post #53 more carefully. Unfortunately for you, Vessol, you can NOT produce such a citation ... ;) Hence, your feigned ignorance that your spam filter caused your oversight is rapidly earning you another rap on your reputation and rightfully so.

[Sentient Void]

He rightly pointed out that your post was vacuous, fallacious and was pretty much devoid of any real substance.

You made lots of assertions, and no real arguments.

[tpreitzel]

He rightly pointed out that your post was vacuous, fallacious and was pretty much devoid of any real substance.

You made lots of assertions, and no real arguments.

Qualified praise from the peanut gallery, eh? So, you're now aligning yourself with a known liar (Vessol), SV? See post #62.

[Sentient Void]

Qualified praise from the peanut gallery, eh? So, you're now aligning yourself with a known liar (Vessol), SV?

I Simply pointed out the obvious, which was lost on you.

You're being either remarkably obtuse or remarkably dishonest.

[tpreitzel]

Did you just negative rep me, tpreitzel, simply because I condensed your post and did not quote it in its entirety as to avoid spam?


I'm still waiting, Vessol, for you to cite my alleged remark. You actually CREATED the alleged remark and are deceitfully attempting to pawn that remark as mine.

[tpreitzel]

I Simply pointed out the obvious, which was lost on you.

You're being either remarkably obtuse or remarkably dishonest.


How quaint ... given your creepily "mature" and "adult" communications with Heavenlyboy34 over my legitimate objection to being misquoted REGARDLESS of the reason. As apparently "lost on you", I've acknowledged elsewhere the reason of laziness as the likely reason for Vessol's false attribution of his words as mine so your assumptions of my intent are wrong, silly, and immature. Vessol was given ample time by me to correct his false attribution, but he has steadfastly refused and even attempted to attribute his misquotation of my remarks to a lame excuse of avoiding spam. Interestingly, Vessol seems comfortable spamming my remarks with his own false attributions, but whines about my alleged "spam" as a lame excuse for his spam. LoL! Well, if my remarks are deemed "spam" to Vessol or anyone else, then simply don't reply. It's simple, really. I will not accept false attributions now or into the future for ANY reason. Quote me correctly or not at all.

[PineGroveDave]

About 140 years ago we outsourced the building of the Transcontinental Railroad to the Chinese. Funny how history repeats itself, yes?

[Cutlerzzz]

http://www.scdigest.com/images/misc/Manufacturing_Data.jpg

[tpreitzel]

The graph of manufacturing output corresponds closely with expansion of the money supply, uh, fiat money supply, in this relatively stable period. We're entering dangerous waters, though. ;)

[Cutlerzzz]

The graph of manufacturing output corresponds closely with expansion of the money supply, uh, fiat money supply, in this relatively stable period. We're entering dangerous waters, though. ;)

So you think that printing money increases manufacturing output?

[tpreitzel]

So you think that printing money increases manufacturing output?

In a relatively stable economic environment, the availability of credit certainly does aid manufacturing output.

[ronpaulhawaii]

Last year, IIRC, a man was killed in our business when a Chinese made chain lifting strap failed, dropping an overhead load on him.

We are prohibited from using Chinese made chain, binders, hooks, lifting straps or shackles onboard my vessel because of their well documented inferior quality.

You get what you pay for, even when buying from a prison economy.
...

^^^ This!

The failures of lifting gear I have seen (~20 years in the rigging industry) have been pretty much all due to Chinese made parts. In Hawaii, we refused to use Chinese made shackles/etc. AF's point about the prison economy is valid. It is pretty well known that heavy industries in China, such as foundries, use prison labor.

This had nothing to do with trade protectionism, and everything to do with asset (people/gear) protectionism.

[Bossobass]

Americans simply do not fathom the frighteningly massive industrial might that the USA was for a century, nor the relatively instantaneous exodus and destruction of that might by the bankers, once they had completely wrested that industrial production from the original owners through debt-based mergers and acquisitions.

Having been born and raised in Pittsburgh, PA, I witnessed the power of US industrial capacity, listened to all of the stories from 4th generation steel workers, both blue and white collar, and lived through the bitter and astounding end.

United States Steel, Bethlehem Steel, Jones & Laughlin Steel, ARMCO, Shenango, Dravo, Sharon Steel, Wheeling Steel, USS Wheel & Axle, USS American Bridge, EAF Steel, Jessop Steel, Alegheny Ludlum, Union Electric Steel, Ellwood Quality Steels, Winner Steel, Alcoa, Koppers Coke, Derry Insulator, Calgon Carbon, Westinghouse, A. M. Beyers... are just a few of the companies that comprised the most productive industrial machine in human history...

All gone inside of a decade.

Not only were these mills abandoned, public and private money was allocated to demolish them and replace them with... shopping malls.

That's right, the very reminder of these plants was not only razed to the ground (where are the award-winning documentaries on this subject, and what are the public schools teaching our kids about it?), but to accommodate the "new economy" comprised mostly of consumer spending, shopping malls now stand in their stead.

Here is just a tiny, tiny glimpse of the Ohio Valley Rust Belt. Please note that most of these plants are gone without a trace.

http://img1.imagehousing.com/88/ac4df231cab75a4ffaabbc2a30b63718.png (http://www.imagehousing.com/image/784748)
http://img1.imagehousing.com/32/292a79986e7b0f1ee945f922188b2b16.png (http://www.imagehousing.com/image/784749)

Today, we mow each other's lawns, sell each other insurance, create and maintain data mining software for HMOs, Google, Facebook, TSA and the NSA, push paper for the financial district, greet people at Walmart and flip ammonia burgers for fast food conglomerates.

US Steels American Bridge division built most of the major bridges in the western hemisphere for a century. Today, we have to ask China to travel 7,000 miles to destroy and rebuild them, after which they will own them and charge a toll.

But, fret not, you can put the toll charges on your VISA.

Bosso

[Rifleman]

Americans simply do not fathom the frighteningly massive industrial might that the USA was for a century, nor the relatively instantaneous exodus and destruction of that might by the bankers, once they had completely wrested that industrial production from the original owners through debt-based mergers and acquisitions.

Having been born and raised in Pittsburgh, PA, I witnessed the power of US industrial capacity, listened to all of the stories from 4th generation steel workers, both blue and white collar, and lived through the bitter and astounding end.

United States Steel, Bethlehem Steel, Jones & Laughlin Steel, ARMCO, Shenango, Dravo, Sharon Steel, Wheeling Steel, USS Wheel & Axle, USS American Bridge, EAF Steel, Jessop Steel, Alegheny Ludlum, Union Electric Steel, Ellwood Quality Steels, Winner Steel, Alcoa, Koppers Coke, Derry Insulator, Calgon Carbon, Westinghouse, A. M. Beyers... are just a few of the companies that comprised the most productive industrial machine in human history...

All gone inside of a decade.

Not only were these mills abandoned, public and private money was allocated to demolish them and replace them with... shopping malls.

That's right, the very reminder of these plants was not only razed to the ground (where are the award-winning documentaries on this subject, and what are the public schools teaching our kids about it?), but to accommodate the "new economy" comprised mostly of consumer spending, shopping malls now stand in their stead.

Here is just a tiny, tiny glimpse of the Ohio Valley Rust Belt. Please note that most of these plants are gone without a trace.

Today, we mow each other's lawns, sell each other insurance, create and maintain data mining software for HMOs, Google, Facebook, TSA and the NSA, push paper for the financial district, greet people at Walmart and flip ammonia burgers for fast food conglomerates.

US Steels American Bridge division built most of the major bridges in the western hemisphere for a century. Today, we have to ask China to travel 7,000 miles to destroy and rebuild them, after which they will own them and charge a toll.

But, fret not, you can put the toll charges on your VISA.

Bosso

That's depressing. :(

[tpreitzel]

Americans simply do not fathom the frighteningly massive industrial might that the USA was for a century, nor the relatively instantaneous exodus and destruction of that might by the bankers, once they had completely wrested that industrial production from the original owners through debt-based mergers and acquisitions.



Even in my limited lifetime, I can remember to a minimal degree the amazing industrial might of this country which why I laugh at much of the economic nonsense posted on these forums. Fiat money and "free trade" are destroying this country along with other governmental intervention in markets.

[Sentient Void]

Even in my limited lifetime, I can remember to a minimal degree the amazing industrial might of this country which why I laugh at much of the economic nonsense posted of these forums. Fiat money and "free trade" are destroying this country along with other governmental intervention in markets.

hahah, lambasting 'free trade' *AND* 'government intervention in markets' in the same sentence!

You are so hopelessly, hopelessly, confused to the point of absurdity.

The only one exhibiting economic nonsense here is you. What school of economics have you learned yourself in or at least ascribed to? I'm genuinely curious...

[tpreitzel]

hahah, lambasting 'free trade' *AND* 'government intervention in markets' in the same sentence!

You are so hopelessly, hopelessly, confused to the point of absurdity.

The only one exhibiting economic nonsense here is you. What school of economics have you learned yourself in or at least ascribed to? I'm genuinely curious...

LoL ... Where have we seen governmental restrictions on "free trade" *AND* itself in markets previously, eh? Hummmm... ;) You're too much along with your ... uncritical regurgitation of flawed economic theory. Hardy har har

[sailingaway]

I just saw on twitter that China is trying to buy a big chunk of facebook. Given facebook's invasion of privacy policies and China's internet reputation, this does not make me happy.

[tpreitzel]

I just saw on twitter that China is trying to buy a big chunk of facebook. Given facebook's invasion of privacy policies and China's internet reputation, this does not make me happy.

Nor should it along with many other pieces of Americana that the Chinese are purchasing with devalued dollars ... as a consequence of "free trade" ...

[oyarde]

California is broke , they cannot afford American union wages due to the socialist state they built. Simple as that.

[pcosmar]

I have been wondering about this lately.
I am seeing Road crews tear up and rebuild roads in Sault Ste. Marie. Major projects, all over town.
There is NO industry here, no jobs. The area has had what is called a depressed economy for as long as I can remember.
The state is broke.
Where the hell is the money coming from for these projects,,and to what end?
There is no industry here to justify it.

[Brian4Liberty]

No, it's trialism to 'want to buy American'. 'Wanting to buy American' is not human nature. Human nature is wanting to maximize one's individual standard of living. This does not fall in line with 'wanting to buy American'. Maximizing one's standard of living through buying the best value in dollars is much closer to human nature. Theory shows this (praxeology, austrian economics), and market evidence all around you illustrates this fact as well.


"Tribalism" is not human nature? Humans do it, so it's human nature. Humans favor their own groups. Family first, and a whole lot of other groupings after that. That is human nature. It is the rare person who actually goes to the trouble of finding and "buying the best value". More people buy from their favorite vendor (possibly run by someone from a shared group), or buy their favorite brands. A good portion of people don't pay attention to the price. Many people can't tell quality from garbage. People buy based on stereotypes, whether they are true or not. People purchase services and goods based on word of mouth. People are lazy, and easily manipulated through marketing and advertising. The real world is far more complex, and far less consumer optimized than some people make it out to be.

[Brian4Liberty]

I have been wondering about this lately.
I am seeing Road crews tear up and rebuild roads in Sault Ste. Marie. Major projects, all over town.
There is NO industry here, no jobs. The area has had what is called a depressed economy for as long as I can remember.
The state is broke.
Where the hell is the money coming from for these projects,,and to what end?
There is no industry here to justify it.

Around here, they put up signs at these work sites that say that it is "Stimulus Money" paying for them.

[Anti Federalist]

Today, we mow each other's lawns, sell each other insurance, create and maintain data mining software for HMOs, Google, Facebook, TSA and the NSA, push paper for the financial district, greet people at Walmart and flip ammonia burgers for fast food conglomerates.

US Steels American Bridge division built most of the major bridges in the western hemisphere for a century. Today, we have to ask China to travel 7,000 miles to destroy and rebuild them, after which they will own them and charge a toll.

But, fret not, you can put the toll charges on your VISA.

Bosso

I can't give that enough rep.

[Anti Federalist]

^^^ This!

The failures of lifting gear I have seen (~20 years in the rigging industry) have been pretty much all due to Chinese made parts. In Hawaii, we refused to use Chinese made shackles/etc. AF's point about the prison economy is valid. It is pretty well known that heavy industries in China, such as foundries, use prison labor.

This had nothing to do with trade protectionism, and everything to do with asset (people/gear) protectionism.

Thanks for backing that up, from another mariner's perspective.

ETA - I'm reviewing the securing document survey for a specialty lift that was put onboard just this morning.

Line 7 - Secured with 1/2 inch domestic chain and 1/2 inch domestic ratchet style binders. NO FOREIGN MADE CHAIN OR BINDERS USED.

We'll be in a hell of a bind when the last US chain and steel makers go tits up.

Probably end up buying from EU socialists in Germany or Finland.

[Anti Federalist]

///

[PineGroveDave]

China is *NOT* communist. If it takes less time to start a business in China than it does in the US, and we have scores of tens of thousands of economic regulations more than China - what does that make the US? Prominent Chinese economist Zhang Weiyin, who is known in China for his advocacy of free market reforms, is an Austrian economist.

Sheesh, AF.

Of course they are authoritarian in the civil liberties part, but their economics is far, far from communist. Especially relative to the US.

Indeed. I have just established "trade relations" with a few firms in China. I used to do business with Eastern European companies which were a major PITA. I love doing business with my friends in China. They're on top of all the transactions. They're always polite. They're always cost competitive. I've never had a business experience with any American or European company like I have with the Chinese. Also, any product I buy from Eastern Europe would take me up to 2 months to receive. From China....1 week. I will continue to do business with China. American companies could learn a lot from their Chinese counterparts. Kinda sad, huh? LOL!

[Sentient Void]

Did you just negative rep me, tpreitzel, simply because I condensed your post and did not quote it in its entirety as to avoid spam?

Yeah, he just -neg repped me over it as well with the comment: "You're remarkably stupid ... "

So I'm gonna -neg rep his lame ass right back.

[UWDude]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O3rlLuZ5tU

I actually believe infrastructure spending can stimulate the economy.

But not when it's built in China. Also, this is caused by the stupidity of the subsidization of oil. There is no way this could be profitable if Oil companies had to pay all the royalties they owe for drilling.

Anyways... ...how can anybody still think they have not been betrayed?

[Brian4Liberty]

Dup thread:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?301055-China-is-taking-over-US-projects-China-to-build-San-Francisco-bridge!

[Brian4Liberty]

Video from Chinese construction site:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O3rlLuZ5tU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O3rlLuZ5tU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O3rlLuZ5tU

I actually believe infrastructure spending can stimulate the economy.

But not when it's built in China. Also, this is caused by the stupidity of the subsidization of oil. There is no way this could be profitable if Oil companies had to pay all the royalties they owe for drilling.

Anyways... ...how can anybody still think they have not been betrayed?

[sailingaway]

One big concern is that their quality control sucks.

You do understand that it has become so expensive to reclaim metal here environmentally that stuff is shipped to other countries for that now? Chinese steel is not what I prefer to drive on, but it is plentiful.

[Brian4Liberty]

One big concern is that their quality control sucks.

You do understand that it has become so expensive to reclaim metal here environmentally that stuff is shipped to other countries for that now? Chinese steel is not what I prefer to drive on, but it is plentiful.

Heard the same thing recently that the recycled steel in China is not pure. Contains residual elements of some kind.

[Acala]

I hope the product we are importing from China is better quality than the crap we have been exporting recently (clever financial instruments).

[HOLLYWOOD]

Heard the same thing recently that the recycled steel in China is not pure. Contains residual elements of some kind.
Their tempered Glass sucks for sure...

How come the Libtards in the Bay Area... elected officials like ; Dianne FeinStein, Nancy Pelosi, George Miller, Zoe Loftgren, Jacky Speier, Giramendi, Barbara Lee, Anna Eshoo, Pete Stark, Lynn Woolsey, etc... How come they're not screaming about government/unions doing all the work instead of foreigners? Oh Damn, I forgot again, they're for immigration reform and helping foreigners, but promise entitlements to the unemployed here with the taxpayer monies?

Oh that's right, Government and the Unions FAILED, multitudes over budget, and years behind schedule. Way to go .GOV/CalTrans! :rolleyes:

[Brian4Liberty]

Their tempered Glass sucks for sure...

How come the Libtards in the Bay Area... elected officials like ; Dianne FeinStein, Nancy Pelosi, George Miller, Zoe Loftgren, Jacky Speier, Giramendi, Barbara Lee, Anna Eshoo, Pete Stark, Lynn Woolsey, etc... How come they're not screaming about government/unions doing all the work instead of foreigners?

Because they are all global corporatists, and they really don't care about Unions or US workers?

[Anti Federalist]

Because they are all global corporatists, and they really don't care about Unions or US workers?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Brian4Liberty again.

[showpan]

In a memo dated March 6, 2008, supervisor Patrick Lowrey of the inspection firm MacTec Engineering and Consulting reported that as many as 65 percent of the more than 30 welded panel sections his office examined - either visually or using ultrasonic testing - failed to meet specifications.
And then they fired the inspectors. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ybenjamin/detail?entry_id=50464) after it hit the news below.

Monday, January, 2009
Questions over welds delay Bay Bridge project (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/25/BAKR15ESKG.DTL&feed=rss.matierandross)
Construction of the tower portion of the Bay Bridge's new eastern span is running months behind schedule, amid questions over whether key portions being made at a Chinese steel plant are defective.
Inspectors hired by Caltrans to monitor the fabrication of steel girders that will support the tower's roadway reported finding cracked welds last year, Caltrans records show.

And then it came tumbling down.

Thursday, October, 2009
Bridge parts couldn't take the wind (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/28/BA621ABP3G.DTL&tsp=1)
High winds caused a steel crossbeam and two steel tie rods to snap off the Bay Bridge's eastern span and fall to the upper deck, Caltrans officials said today as commuters unable to drive over the closed bridge jammed alternative routes and crowded onto BART in record numbers.
The three pieces were part of an emergency repair that workers made on the bridge over the Labor Day weekend after discovering a crack in a structural beam on the cantilever section. The repair held for just seven weeks, until the parts came crashing to the upper deck at 5:30 p.m. Tuesday, damaging three vehicles and injuring one motorist.

[Brian4Liberty]

In a memo dated March 6, 2008, supervisor Patrick Lowrey of the inspection firm MacTec Engineering and Consulting reported that as many as 65 percent of the more than 30 welded panel sections his office examined - either visually or using ultrasonic testing - failed to meet specifications.
And then they fired the inspectors. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ybenjamin/detail?entry_id=50464) after it hit the news below.

Monday, January, 2009
Questions over welds delay Bay Bridge project (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/25/BAKR15ESKG.DTL&feed=rss.matierandross)
Construction of the tower portion of the Bay Bridge's new eastern span is running months behind schedule, amid questions over whether key portions being made at a Chinese steel plant are defective.
Inspectors hired by Caltrans to monitor the fabrication of steel girders that will support the tower's roadway reported finding cracked welds last year, Caltrans records show.

And then it came tumbling down.

Thursday, October, 2009
Bridge parts couldn't take the wind (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/28/BA621ABP3G.DTL&tsp=1)
High winds caused a steel crossbeam and two steel tie rods to snap off the Bay Bridge's eastern span and fall to the upper deck, Caltrans officials said today as commuters unable to drive over the closed bridge jammed alternative routes and crowded onto BART in record numbers.
The three pieces were part of an emergency repair that workers made on the bridge over the Labor Day weekend after discovering a crack in a structural beam on the cantilever section. The repair held for just seven weeks, until the parts came crashing to the upper deck at 5:30 p.m. Tuesday, damaging three vehicles and injuring one motorist.

That last story is a bit misleading. The pieces that failed were on the old span, and were a quick rigged attempt to strengthen a cracked beam. That beam could have been cracked since the 89 earthquake.

http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2009/10/28/ba-BRIDGE29_PH03_0500774196.jpg

[showpan]

thanks, I didn't realize that it was part of the old span, I was doing a search for the cracks and the fired inspectors when I found that article. I have worked with MacTec on many projects and had remembered talking with them about the welds, I have had most of my welding certs over the years and most of the MacTec inspectors I have known actually knew what they were doing....lol

[Pauls' Revere]

Boy and the steelworkers union has thier mouth shut? WOW! where's the outrage from the unions?