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Sematary
06-23-2011, 07:40 AM
In the on-going debate about how to shave trillions off the U.S. government budget I hear the talking heads go on and on about "entitlements", speaking about Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid as if they were government programs that they (the government) handed out to the populace like candy but apparently none of them are working men and women. I hate the term "entitlement" because that denotes the people who receive funds from these programs somehow receive them because it is a "right" that the government has bestowed upon them or that is due them simply because they live in the United States. That's total BULL.

I have been FORCED to pay into these programs my entire working life which is now 35 years old. Nobody ASKED me if I wanted to help fund these programs and I wasn't given an option. The law mandates that I do so. In those 35 years (and counting) I have "contributed" countless tens of thousands of dollars (and I'm on the poorer side) to these programs. I could easily believe that more than 100k has been stolen from me for programs I am told I have to fund.

So NOW, government peons tell me that they have to look at future funding of these programs, blah, blah, blah, blah. That may be true but stop calling them entitlements and start talking about them for what they truly are - funds stolen in a pyramid scheme to fund future expenditures and which were stolen from the American people when the government added the money taken from the people to the general fund. If the government hadn't performed that heinous act and had, instead, left the moneys in an interest bearing account (like they were supposed to) then we wouldn't be having this discussion because there wouldn't be a problem.

I, like every other American who has been forced to pay into this scheme, has EARNED the money that we have coming to us when we retire. I'd be more than willing to let the government give back to me every penny it has stolen from me over the decades (with interest) and I will never ask for a social security check, or medicaid, etc...

But, that's not going to happen - as we all know.
How much IS the interest on $100,000 anyway? I am not going to be made to feel guilty about asking for what is rightfully mine. It is not an entitlement - it is my money, that I sweated and bled for. Over the course of my 35 years of paying into these schemes I have worked in super hot environments. I have broken bones, I have bled and sweated and done what I needed to do to keep food on the table and a roof over my family's head and I refuse to allow the government, or people who have barely cut their teeth on the job market to tell me that I am somehow part of the problem. The problem is how the government (specifically Congress) has stolen the money that hundreds of millions of people have allowed them to take from them and misappropriated for close to 5 decades now.

I agree with Ron Paul - if you want to start cutting - look at our misadventures in other nations with our military and look at our funding of other nations. Before you start looking to ME to give up that which I have earned, look to those sources of waste and uselesness. Republicans in Congress believe that WIC should be cut before farm subsidies? My future security, which I PAID for, should be hobbled so that their wealthy corporate masters can make MORE money? They can kiss my a**.

Don Lapre
06-23-2011, 07:50 AM
Wow.

Outstanding!

I feel your outrage and believe me, it's shared by many.


Theft, plain and simple.

Danke
06-23-2011, 07:58 AM
But politicians have expanding these programs throughout the years to include those that haven't contribute much or anything. So you as one of the contributors will get the shaft. Medicare is probably the biggest program that needs some trimming.

Sematary
06-23-2011, 08:06 AM
I agree with you on those who haven't contributed much (or anything) to these programs. I especially get pissed of about people who collect from these programs who are declared "incapacitated" because they are either drug addicts, alcoholics or overweight. How can you collect social security because you are a drug addict or an alcoholic? THAT is outrageous. I know there are other examples but really, why should all of society pay for people who can't control themselves?

oyarde
06-23-2011, 10:58 AM
But politicians have expanding these programs throughout the years to include those that haven't contribute much or anything. So you as one of the contributors will get the shaft. Medicare is probably the biggest program that needs some trimming.

Yes

Schifference
06-23-2011, 11:16 AM
Many people don't realize that when you are an employee, your employer also matches your payroll taxes. So actually double what you paid in has been paid to the government. If your employer did not have to pay those taxes it would have surely translated to higher wages for the employees. Understanding that some today collect way more than they ever paid in, there is another issue. My grandfather and father both paid into SS and Medicare. My grandfather retired in his early 60's and lived to the ripe age of 82 he died in 1984. He collected way more than he ever paid in. My father retired in 1978 at the age of 58 and is still alive today. Until 2007 when my mother passed away, they both collected, even though she never worked a day in her life. They ended up collecting much more than he ever contributed. This was a bad program and destined to fail from the beginning.

outspoken
06-23-2011, 11:22 AM
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Hell is about to bed asked to be paid in full and the only monetary unit it accepts is human suffering. The American dream is quickly approaching the world nightmare of epic proportions and most are still asleep. I really only expect those of the younger generation to wake up to the reality that has been created over decades while all the baby boomers cling to the belief that they're entitled to all that govt promised them over the years. They're hell bent on riding off into the sunset of a retirement they never paid for. This whole mess pits generations against each other and when SHTF there will be a lot of anger unleashed.

Tom in NYC
06-23-2011, 11:22 AM
I agree with you on those who haven't contributed much (or anything) to these programs. I especially get pissed of about people who collect from these programs who are declared "incapacitated" because they are either drug addicts, alcoholics or overweight. How can you collect social security because you are a drug addict or an alcoholic? THAT is outrageous. I know there are other examples but really, why should all of society pay for people who can't control themselves?

I think one of the most important ways we can frame this issue is to allow people to opt out and not be taxes. I am 25 and I'd love to opt out of social security and the other entitlement programs.

madengr
06-23-2011, 11:26 AM
Think of this analogy: A criminal breaks into your home and steals $10k cash, and subsequently blows the money on booze and hookers. The cops catch the guy, but your money is now gone; no tangible assets to recover. The cops then use the sanction of government to send the crook back out to steal from someone else to refund you.

Your money is gone; it was spent before fedgov pulled it from your paycheck. To expect SS funds when you retire (because you paid in) and further propagate the ponzi scheme is immoral and unethical. No different than sending out the robber in the above analogy.

Anyway, the above reasoning has put me in allot of arguments when I advocate stopping SS now. People who are drawing in it now? Tough luck! It's not your money. Yours was spent long ago.

outspoken
06-23-2011, 11:38 AM
Think of this analogy: A criminal breaks into your home and steals $10k cash, and subsequently blows the money on booze and hookers. The cops catch the guy, but your money is now gone; no tangible assets to recover. The cops then use the sanction of government to send the crook back out to steal from someone else to refund you.

Your money is gone; it was spent before fedgov pulled it from your paycheck. To expect SS funds when you retire (because you paid in) and further propagate the ponzi scheme is immoral and unethical. No different than sending out the robber in the above analogy.

Anyway, the above reasoning has put me in allot of arguments when I advocate stopping SS now. People who are drawing in it now? Tough luck! It's not your money. Yours was spent long ago.

THe kicker is that you then have to pay to have the guy thrown in jail. In the real world, it is the politicians holding the gun for this guy and everyone turns a blind eye.

driller80545
06-23-2011, 11:39 AM
I feel exactly the same as the OP and I will never accept that I am expecting welfare out of SS. I have paid for it, justified it as a socially accepted retirement plan, and will expect it when I soon retire. The money has been stolen and whoever is responsible should be prosecuted. These are the only circumstances under which I will accept that SS must be dissolved. All you young people can say whatever you like about "its a tax or whatever", but I see only excuses out of you for trying to get out of paying as we were forced to do. And I don't blame you, I don't think that you should pay it. It will just be stolen from you also. But don't make me out to be some kind of burden on society (that you have to support in my old age) because I want to know where my money has gone and the people prosecuted that stole it. I will never settle for that.

driller80545
06-23-2011, 11:43 AM
Think of this analogy: A criminal breaks into your home and steals $10k cash, and subsequently blows the money on booze and hookers. The cops catch the guy, but your money is now gone; no tangible assets to recover. The cops then use the sanction of government to send the crook back out to steal from someone else to refund you.

Your money is gone; it was spent before fedgov pulled it from your paycheck. To expect SS funds when you retire (because you paid in) and further propagate the ponzi scheme is immoral and unethical. No different than sending out the robber in the above analogy.

Anyway, the above reasoning has put me in allot of arguments when I advocate stopping SS now. People who are drawing in it now? Tough luck! It's not your money. Yours was spent long ago.

When I deposit cash in the bank and then later withdraw it, that is not my money either. What if they tell me that they spent my money and that they will have to give me my withdrawal out of someone else's deposit. You think that I give a shit about that?

Sematary
06-23-2011, 12:13 PM
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Hell is about to bed asked to be paid in full and the only monetary unit it accepts is human suffering. The American dream is quickly approaching the world nightmare of epic proportions and most are still asleep. I really only expect those of the younger generation to wake up to the reality that has been created over decades while all the baby boomers cling to the belief that they're entitled to all that govt promised them over the years. They're hell bent on riding off into the sunset of a retirement they never paid for. This whole mess pits generations against each other and when SHTF there will be a lot of anger unleashed.

you really believe that?
i've not only paid for that retirement, i've paid for it through taxes
and lower wages. that was MY money they took and yes, i expect it
back, with interest!

Sweman
06-23-2011, 01:03 PM
...
You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

Sematary
06-23-2011, 02:46 PM
You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

???

Was that supposed to contribute something to the conversation?

Sematary
06-23-2011, 02:48 PM
I think one of the most important ways we can frame this issue is to allow people to opt out and not be taxes. I am 25 and I'd love to opt out of social security and the other entitlement programs.

I would love to opt out. Give me back my money, with interest, and I'll invest in my own retirement.

Sematary
06-23-2011, 02:50 PM
Think of this analogy: A criminal breaks into your home and steals $10k cash, and subsequently blows the money on booze and hookers. The cops catch the guy, but your money is now gone; no tangible assets to recover. The cops then use the sanction of government to send the crook back out to steal from someone else to refund you.

Your money is gone; it was spent before fedgov pulled it from your paycheck. To expect SS funds when you retire (because you paid in) and further propagate the ponzi scheme is immoral and unethical. No different than sending out the robber in the above analogy.

Anyway, the above reasoning has put me in allot of arguments when I advocate stopping SS now. People who are drawing in it now? Tough luck! It's not your money. Yours was spent long ago.

It's actually a horrible analogy. A better one would be a scam artist like Bernie Madoff. And it IS my money. And yours, and the other guys. If our government can't find a way to "fix the system" and people who have spent their entire lives paying into that system get screwed, that is when the revolution will occur.

Cutlerzzz
06-23-2011, 02:54 PM
Sadly, you could get rid of the Department of Defense and end the wars, and that still nearly leaves a trillion dollar deficit. They have to make serious cutbacks else where.

Vessol
06-23-2011, 02:55 PM
Entitlements=Bribes made by mafioso thugs aka: politicians.

Danke
06-23-2011, 03:05 PM
???

Was that supposed to contribute something to the conversation?



He was agreeing with you.


It's actually a horrible analogy. A better one would be a scam artist like Bernie Madoff. And it IS my money. And yours, and the other guys. If our government can't find a way to "fix the system" and people who have spent their entire lives paying into that system get screwed, that is when the revolution will occur.

I feel bad about any group, young and older. Maybe the young should opt out and the older go after the estates of those that lived years off of their taxes...

Vessol
06-23-2011, 03:08 PM
It's actually a horrible analogy. A better one would be a scam artist like Bernie Madoff. And it IS my money. And yours, and the other guys. If our government can't find a way to "fix the system" and people who have spent their entire lives paying into that system get screwed, that is when the revolution will occur.

People don't only care about their money. Most others want everyone elses money too.

That's all that the State welfare system is, the excuse for people to "legally" rob others and not feel bad about it.

The "Revolution" will be when all the bribe recipients get cut off from the faucet of other peoples money funneled through State theft.

Teaser Rate
06-23-2011, 04:29 PM
Anyway, the above reasoning has put me in allot of arguments when I advocate stopping SS now. People who are drawing in it now? Tough luck! It's not your money. Yours was spent long ago.

If I understand correctly, what you're advocating is that we cut off all the sick and elderly members of society and leave them to struggle and die because you feel that you're entitled to a tax cut.

driller80545
06-23-2011, 04:35 PM
If I understand correctly, what you're advocating is that we cut off all the sick and elderly members of society and leave them to struggle and die because you feel that you're entitled to a tax cut.

If you see someone that is elderly and sick that you want to help, then help them. Has nothing to do with getting ripped off for the last three or four decades by SS.

madengr
06-23-2011, 04:46 PM
If I understand correctly, what you're advocating is that we cut off all the sick and elderly members of society and leave them to struggle and die because you feel that you're entitled to a tax cut.

Yes, they can go on welfare then, which won't be any better, but at least it would end the ponzi scheme. And yes, I do derserve a tax cut, in fact I should be paying zero taxes. How can I be entitled to money that is already mine to begin with.

nicoleeann
06-23-2011, 04:52 PM
the elderly are owed their money, but not from us youngsters. they are owed it from the government. i shouldn't have to pay for something that i never wanted in the first place. the older generation should have known better than to get involved in such a sceme. i feel bad for you though. because it probably wasn't you who voted and wanted this program. all the people and polititions who enacted and voted for this program should be paying you.

Teaser Rate
06-23-2011, 04:52 PM
Yes, they can go on welfare then, which won't be any better, but at least it would end the ponzi scheme. And yes, I do derserve a tax cut, in fact I should be paying zero taxes. How can I be entitled to money that is already mine to begin with.

Thanks for answering. Do you think that an majority of voters will ever agree with you on the issue?

madengr
06-23-2011, 04:57 PM
Thanks for answering. Do you think that an majority of voters will ever agree with you on the issue?

Nope, as long as 51% can steal from the remaining 49%. Of course Ron Paul would be president if the majority agreed with me too.

madengr
06-23-2011, 05:09 PM
the elderly are owed their money, but not from us youngsters. they are owed it from the government. i shouldn't have to pay for something that i never wanted in the first place. the older generation should have known better than to get involved in such a sceme. i feel bad for you though. because it probably wasn't you who voted and wanted this program. all the people and polititions who enacted and voted for this program should be paying you.

True, but the money will still come from you via taxation (theft at gunpoint). The only way to fix SS is to end it. Some group will suffer.

Sematary
06-23-2011, 06:40 PM
the elderly are owed their money, but not from us youngsters. they are owed it from the government. i shouldn't have to pay for something that i never wanted in the first place. the older generation should have known better than to get involved in such a sceme. i feel bad for you though. because it probably wasn't you who voted and wanted this program. all the people and polititions who enacted and voted for this program should be paying you.

I can almost guarantee that anyone who was alive when social security was enacted is probably dead by now or weren't old enough to vote.

LibForestPaul
06-23-2011, 09:04 PM
I feel exactly the same as the OP and I will never accept that I am expecting welfare out of SS. I have paid for it, justified it as a socially accepted retirement plan, and will expect it when I soon retire. The money has been stolen and whoever is responsible should be prosecuted. These are the only circumstances under which I will accept that SS must be dissolved. All you young people can say whatever you like about "its a tax or whatever", but I see only excuses out of you for trying to get out of paying as we were forced to do. And I don't blame you, I don't think that you should pay it. It will just be stolen from you also. But don't make me out to be some kind of burden on society (that you have to support in my old age) because I want to know where my money has gone and the people prosecuted that stole it. I will never settle for that.

You have paid virtually nothing and expect much! You should have grown a pair and stood up to people forcing a ponzi scheme onto yourself.
I have paid tens of thousands into this system. I expect NOTHING! For there will be NOTHING! The pyramid is collapsing, my wants are irrelevant, though I would expect the young at the inverted base to riot if my greed rears itself.

Cutlerzzz
06-23-2011, 09:21 PM
People pay what, 15% of their income into SS and Medicare? It's amazing that anyone thinks the government is doing a good job with that kind of money. This really is the biggest scam in US history.

Sematary
06-23-2011, 09:23 PM
You have paid virtually nothing and expect much! You should have grown a pair and stood up to people forcing a ponzi scheme onto yourself.
I have paid tens of thousands into this system. I expect NOTHING! For there will be NOTHING! The pyramid is collapsing, my wants are irrelevant, though I would expect the young at the inverted base to riot if my greed rears itself.

What exactly do you expect he, or I, or anyone could have done? This system has been in place since before we were born and I guarantee we have paid more than "virtually nothing". I expect the social contract to be fulfilled, or a refund of my money, with interest. Either way is fine with me.

Sematary
06-23-2011, 09:35 PM
People pay what, 15% of their income into SS and Medicare? It's amazing that anyone thinks the government is doing a good job with that kind of money. This really is the biggest scam in US history.

I don't think anyone expects that the government did a good job with the money. We all know they stole it. That doesn't mean that people aren't pissed about it or that we don't expect something in return. I've spent too much of my life being forced to pay into this scheme to not expect what I paid in, back.

aGameOfThrones
06-23-2011, 09:44 PM
1960 Scotus case of Flemming v. Nestor.

It involved Bulgarian-born Ephram Nestor, who was deported in 1956, having been involved in Communist activity in the 1930s. The federal government denied him his Social Security benefits, citing 1954 amendments to the Social Security Act that denied payments to anyone deported for criminal activity after August of that year. Nestor Sued on the grounds that "throughout the history of the Social Security Act, old-age insurance benefits have been referred to as a right of the recipient which he has earned and paid for."

The federal government prepared a legal brief in defense of its position that Nestor was not entitled to his benefits. The brief explained that Social Security was in no sense a federally administered "insurance program" under which each worker pays premiums over the years and acquires at retirement an indefeasible right to receive for life a fixed monthly benefit,irrespective of the conditions which Congress has chosen to impose from time to time.... The "contribution" exacted under the social security plan from an employee...is a True Tax. It is not comparable to a premium under a policy of insurance promising the payment of an annuity commencing at a designated age.

From Thomas Woods JR. 33 questions about American History.


************************************************** **

"To engraft upon the Social Security system a concept of "accrued property rights" would deprive it of the flexibility and boldness in adjustment to ever-changing conditions which it demands. It was doubtless out of an awareness of the need for such flexibility that Congress included in the original Act, and [363 U.S. 603, 611] has since retained, a clause expressly reserving to it "[t]he right to alter, amend, or repeal any provision" of the Act.

...

We must conclude that a person covered by the Act has not such a right in benefit payments as would make every defeasance of "accrued" interests violative of the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment. FLEMMING v. NESTOR, 363 U.S. 603 (1960)"

eworthington
06-24-2011, 08:39 AM
The best way to eliminate entitlements, or at least greatly reduce them, would be to start means-testing all or part of Medicare. That program is more of a problem than Social Security and means-testing it will start to get the general population to think of the program as a welfare program, not a right. As the program gets more expensive, people will probably adopt more negative attitudes towards it if they think they might not receive some or all of it.

Medicaid could probably be chipped away at slowly if it were made a state program partially funded by block grants.

moostraks
06-24-2011, 09:19 AM
You have paid virtually nothing and expect much!..
I have paid tens of thousands into this system.

How do you know what pp paid? Your follow up comment implies you have some moral high road because of the tens of thousands you paid in and are letting go. There is no way any of us could force the criminal organization that has stolen hard earned dollars to be responsible unless and until they default on the matter and even then it is much like the corporations which are defaulting on their retirement plans and reaping record profits, you have to get a judgement for them to have to pay up. America is morally bankrupt and excusing poor behavior as the fault of those who have been victimized only allows these offenses to continue...

LibForestPaul
06-24-2011, 08:16 PM
How do you know what pp paid? Your follow up comment implies you have some moral high road because of the tens of thousands you paid in and are letting go. There is no way any of us could force the criminal organization that has stolen hard earned dollars to be responsible unless and until they default on the matter and even then it is much like the corporations which are defaulting on their retirement plans and reaping record profits, you have to get a judgement for them to have to pay up. America is morally bankrupt and excusing poor behavior as the fault of those who have been victimized only allows these offenses to continue...

Those demanding pointing a gun at laborers demanding their fair share ARE criminals NOT victims.

Sematary
06-29-2011, 12:54 AM
Those demanding pointing a gun at laborers demanding their fair share ARE criminals NOT victims.

Those demanding that the government live up to the obligations it promised, and stole, are not victims? If My company takes the money I give them for retirement and "borrows" it to pay other debts then defaults on the contract they made with their employees, then they are criminally liable, as is our government, if they do the same.