Partiot Act: Know Your Customer. Bank Threatens To Shut Down My Accounts

[ItsTime]

I am an owner of a small marketing firm and regularly send out international wires to pay for advertisement. I just got a friendly letter from my bank today saying, because of the patriot act, they need more information about my business or they are going to shut down my accounts.

I did a little research and it appears this awesome clause in the Patriot Act has my own bank spying on my legal activities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer

Ive been trying to get in touch with my bank but it seems the whole risk management department is out. My bank manager has no idea what to do or how to get hold of them!

Anyone here have to deal with this bullshit before? What am I suppose to do with the non disclosure agreements I have with my customers when they ask who I am doing business with? How good is it going to look for me when I have to go to those customers and say "Hey my bank, because of the patriot act, is doing an audit of my accounts, is it alright if I break our NDA?"

:mad:

Update: I just got off the phone with the bank. During a "routine patriot act check of the accounts" it was that one international wire a month that set off the red flag, but was not what they were concerned about. Apparently a company I do very little business with, like $200 a month, is being sued by the federal government and the bank wanted to make sure I would not do dealings with them until the case was over.

[ItsTime]

Awesome. Just got off the phone with my bank and I get to play "Are You A Terrorist Q & A" with a risk management manager tomorrow.

I asked the manager "Well is my account alright?" and she said "It depends on how you answer the questions tomorrow"

How fun!

[teacherone]

might want to withdraw your money before it's frozen.

[JoshLowry]

Don't ask them to define terrorist!

;)

Good luck.

[flightlesskiwi]

I can't help you out, but I am sorry to hear about this. Thanks for sharing and I'll file it away as another bit of information to use for my argument against the State.

[cswake]

Don't break (contract) law and violate your NDAs, unless ordered to do so by the authorities. (Make sure it is written!) Disclose as much as legally possible to the bank. As for removing your money, probably a bad idea since you've probably already been reported to the FBI through a Suspicious Activity Report. (SAR)

[teacherone]

Don't break (contract) law and violate your NDAs, unless ordered to do so by the authorities. (Make sure it is written!) Disclose as much as legally possible to the bank. As for removing your money, probably a bad idea since you've probably already been reported to the FBI through a Suspicious Activity Report. (SAR)

well...i take it back then :O

[Brian4Liberty]

I am an owner of a small marketing firm and regularly send out international wires to pay for advertisement.

Was this a trigger to further investigate you?

You might want to look at competing banks that don't have the same policy.

[Anti Federalist]

Awesome. Just got off the phone with my bank and I get to play "Are You A Terrorist Q & A" with a risk management manager tomorrow.

I asked the manager "Well is my account alright?" and she said "It depends on how you answer the questions tomorrow"

How fun!

They hate us for our freedom

[Anti Federalist]

Was this a trigger to further investigate you?

You might want to look at competing banks that don't have the same policy.

You cannot do banking in the US without going through this.

Anybody processing out of country accounts payable, is under surveillance.

Frankly, I'm surprised it took It'sTime's bank this long to catch up.

[cswake]

Every bank does. The Know Your Customer training is annually done for all financial institutions, and it is applied subjectively by the bank employees who review any transaction.

[Nastynate]

I don't know you can possibly take it to court? I'm very poorly educated in law but this seems like a case where you could at least ask a lawyer. It could be risky though. But I say go to a liberty minded lawyer and just ask if you have a case.

[ItsTime]

Don't break (contract) law and violate your NDAs, unless ordered to do so by the authorities. (Make sure it is written!) Disclose as much as legally possible to the bank. As for removing your money, probably a bad idea since you've probably already been reported to the FBI through a Suspicious Activity Report. (SAR)

Yeah I dont plan on drastic measures, ive done nothing wrong. I thought they did SAR after the Q & A? If not, great another headache!


Was this a trigger to further investigate you?

You might want to look at competing banks that don't have the same policy.

My guess is I send out one large (around 10k) wire a month to a company in Norway. I receive a few wires from Canada. Other than that I have no clue.

[Anti Federalist]

My guess is I send out one large (around 10k) wire a month to a company in Norway. I receive a few wires from Canada. Other than that I have no clue.

That's it right there.

[aGameOfThrones]

If you have nothing to hide, why not give them everything they ask you for?

/S

Thought it was missing from the thread. :)

[Anti Federalist]

If you have nothing to hide, why not give them everything they ask you for?

/S

Thought it was missing from the thread. :)

DoublePlusGood reply Comrade.

[ItsTime]

That's it right there.

I know wtf! What a pain in the ass.

[cswake]

I thought they did SAR after the Q & A? If not, great another headache!That I think depends on each bank's policies. (At least that's what I gathered from coworkers) It shouldn't be a headache unless you or your company's information triggers something in the FBI's databases. The real headache might be that the have your funds locked up for a good bit and leave you without a way to conduct international business.

Might want to start thinking about alternatives that don't make you lose your credibility with your customers.

[jware]

If I remember correctly, banks are not allowed to tell you when they file a SAR. Also, as Anti Federalist said, the 10K international wires will definitely set off some alarms. My dad is a manager at a small independent bank, and he was telling me a few weeks ago about the Patriot Act regulations banks have to follow. He showed me a long list of actions that constitute "suspicious activity", and frequent wiring of large sums was definitely on there.

Unfortunately, the regulations are as much a pain in the ass for them as they are for you. They are required to train their employees to look for suspicious activity, and they have to prepare tons of paperwork to present to regulators, who come multiple times a year. And if they fail to report something, the bank will have to pay a fine and in some cases the managers will be thrown in jail. So they really don't have any choice when it comes to following the regulations.

If you have any questions about Patriot Act guidelines for banks, just let me know and I'll ask and get back to you.

[Koz]

I deal with this BS every day. I think it's time to hire an atty. for consultation. I can't stand paying lawyers but sometimes they are needed.


If I remember correctly, banks are not allowed to tell you when they file a SAR.

This is exaclty right, I have had so much damn Patriot Act Training it is ridiculous. We are made to spy on our clients and cannot thell them if we have to report them. We aren't paid for this spying either.

Good luck.

[JoshLowry]

http://www.randpaul2010.com/2011/05/senator-rand-paul-floor-statement-on-usa-patriot-act-extension/

[heavenlyboy34]

You cannot do banking in the US without going through this.

Anybody processing out of country accounts payable, is under surveillance.

Frankly, I'm surprised it took It'sTime's bank this long to catch up.
Does this law apply to credit unions as well? /curious

[ItsTime]

That I think depends on each bank's policies. (At least that's what I gathered from coworkers) It shouldn't be a headache unless you or your company's information triggers something in the FBI's databases. The real headache might be that the have your funds locked up for a good bit and leave you without a way to conduct international business.

Might want to start thinking about alternatives that don't make you lose your credibility with your customers.

Nah my business shouldnt set off any alarms. My funds are not locked as of right now. They were threatening to close my accounts if I did not get back to them by July 1st.


If I remember correctly, banks are not allowed to tell you when they file a SAR. Also, as Anti Federalist said, the 10K international wires will definitely set off some alarms. My dad is a manager at a small independent bank, and he was telling me a few weeks ago about the Patriot Act regulations banks have to follow. He showed me a long list of actions that constitute "suspicious activity", and frequent wiring of large sums was definitely on there.

Unfortunately, the regulations are as much a pain in the ass for them as they are for you. They are required to train their employees to look for suspicious activity, and they have to prepare tons of paperwork to present to regulators, who come multiple times a year. And if they fail to report something, the bank will have to pay a fine and in some cases the managers will be thrown in jail. So they really don't have any choice when it comes to following the regulations.

If you have any questions about Patriot Act guidelines for banks, just let me know and I'll ask and get back to you.

Well what sort of questions should I expect to have to answer?

I mean it shouldnt be to hard to explain, we are talking about 1 wire a month out and 2 or 3 in a month. Everything else is in the form of checks.

[moonshineplease]

You could try to get in touch with Peter Schiff, He knows everything there is to know about complying with the Patriot Act and hiring employees specifically trained to deal with such rules and regulations.

[cswake]

Does this law apply to credit unions as well? /curiousEvery financial institution. This is what Schiff was complaining about when he said that he and his employees were forced to become agents of the government.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Bank Secrecy Act

http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/bsa/

All you need to know from the beginning to latest changes in violations of privacy/liberty:


Bank Secrecy Act

To view or print PDF content, download the free Adobe Acrobat Reader (http://www.fincen.gov/redirect.html?url=http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html).
The Bank Secrecy Act of 1970 (or BSA, or otherwise known as the Currency and Foreign Transactions Reporting Act) requires U.S.A. financial institutions to assist U.S. government agencies to detect and prevent money laundering. Specifically, the act requires financial institutions to keep records of cash purchases of negotiable instruments, file reports of cash transactions exceeding $10,000 (daily aggregate amount), and to report suspicious activity that might signify money laundering, tax evasion, or other criminal activities. It was passed by the Congress of the United States in 1970. The BSA is sometimes referred to as an "anti-money laundering" law ("AML") or jointly as “BSA/AML”. Several anti-money laundering acts, including provisions in title III of the USA PATRIOT Act, have been enacted up to the present to amend the BSA. (See 31 USC 5311-5330 and 31 CFR Chapter X (formerly 31 CFR Part 103).
Bank Secrecy Act (BSA) Statute


31 U.S.C. 5311-5314e (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=BROWSE&TITLE=31USCSIV)
5316-5330 (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=BROWSE&TITLE=31USCSIV)
5331 (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc31.wais&start=2860399&SIZE=3492&TYPE=TEXT)
5332e (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+31USC5332)
12 U.S.C. 1829b (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+12USC1829b)
12 U.S.C. 1951-1959e (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=BROWSE&TITLE=12USCC21)
Federal Crime of Money Laundering - Title 18, U.S. Code, Crimes and Criminal Procedure (http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/bsa/title18a.html)
Federal Crime of Operating an Unlicensed or Unregistered Money Transmitting Business - Title 18 U.S. Code, Crimes and Criminal Procedure (http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/bsa/title18b.html)


Codified Bank Secrecy Act (BSA) Regulations


31 CFR Chapter X (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=0e5f6b55b62248a15f8ba11d1c561443&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title31/31cfrv3_02.tpl#1000) (Effective March 1, 2011)
31 CFR Part 103 (http://www.fincen.gov/forms/files/Title31CFR103.pdf) (Effective through February 28, 2011)

The Federal Register (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/multidb.html) contains final regulations issued after the date of codification, as well as the Notices of Proposed Rulemaking.
http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/bsa/

[osan]

I am an owner of a small marketing firm and regularly send out international wires to pay for advertisement. I just got a friendly letter from my bank today saying, because of the patriot act, they need more information about my business or they are going to shut down my accounts.

I did a little research and it appears this awesome clause in the Patriot Act has my own bank spying on my legal activities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer

Ive been trying to get in touch with my bank but it seems the whole risk management department is out. My bank manager has no idea what to do or how to get hold of them!

Anyone here have to deal with this bullshit before? What am I suppose to do with the non disclosure agreements I have with my customers when they ask who I am doing business with? How good is it going to look for me when I have to go to those customers and say "Hey my bank, because of the patriot act, is doing an audit of my accounts, is it alright if I break our NDA?"

:mad:

Find a new bank. Small ones are often better. Large ones such as BoA and Chase are horrible.

I would not violate the NDAs. Your ass could end up in the gutter.

[ItsTime]

Find a new bank. Small ones are often better. Large ones such as BoA and Chase are horrible.

I would not violate the NDAs. Your ass could end up in the gutter.

This is a small local bank. Everyone in the bank knows me. I hand them the invoice to do the wire. They asked me once what it was for, I told them advertising. They said ok. Didnt seem like a problem for them, Ive been doing this about 6 months now.

Yeah Im not going to give up an NDA. ahhh what a pain in the ass.

[osan]

might want to withdraw your money before it's frozen.

Not a bad idea. Leave enough in to cover outstanding payments. get another bank.

I would not answer their questions and cite your NDAs. You may disclose the identity of your clients... unless you have NDAs against that as well, though I cannot imagine why you would. Let them investigate the clients. They already know to whom you have made transfers, so they have no business prying into the details of your business.

What bullshit.

[osan]

If you have nothing to hide, why not give them everything they ask you for?

/S

Thought it was missing from the thread. :)

Where's Zippy when you need him? :)

[eduardo89]

I had a similar problem in the UK where the bank tried to force me to prove where I got my money from. I was exchanging and depositing 15,000 euros in cash to pay my uni tuition, and they didn't want to let me deposit any money before I proved to them where the money came from. I told them to fuck off and opened a new account at a different bank and deposited the money over 3 days.

[ItsTime]

I had a similar problem in the UK where the bank tried to force me to prove where I got my money from. I was exchanging and depositing 15,000 euros in cash to pay my uni tuition, and they didn't want to let me deposit any money before I proved to them where the money came from. I told them to fuck off and opened a new account at a different bank and deposited the money over 3 days.

I am a zero cash business, everything is mostly checks and a few wires. So its not like the source of the income is some mystery. Most are from very large corporations. Their names are right on the freaking checks! lol

[mhad]

bring a recorder and record the conversation...

[osan]

I told them to fuck off and opened a new account at a different bank and deposited the money over 3 days.

Ed the Head does us all proud. Way to go!

A friendly, if firm "fuck off" to all tyrants, petty and otherwise.

[Anti Federalist]

Does this law apply to credit unions as well? /curious

Yes, sadly, no one is immune.

[heavenlyboy34]

Yes, sadly, no one is immune.

Ah, shit. FFS! :(

[ItsTime]

Im still confused as heck. I have been doing the same activity on my account since I opened it. One large wire out several smaller ones in and then checks, no cash.

Oh well, Im freaking myself out for nothing. Im just pissed that I have to go through the question and answer.

[Humanae Libertas]

might want to withdraw your money before it's frozen stolen.

Fixed. :)

[Vessol]

"It depends on how you answer the questions tomorrow"

And some people try to tell me that there is a difference between our government and the mafia.

[ItsTime]

[QUOTE=ItsTime;3345099]"It depends on how you answer the questions tomorrow"/QUOTE]

And some people try to tell me that there is a difference between our government and the mafia.

This was the risk management manager of the bank. The guy I have to talk to was out of the office for the whole day. So I asked a branch manager for her number, she did not sound like she enjoyed the fact I had that lines number.

[Slutter McGee]

[QUOTE=Vessol;3345614]

This was the risk management manager of the bank. The guy I have to talk to was out of the office for the whole day. So I asked a branch manager for her number, she did not sound like she enjoyed the fact I had that lines number.

It is rarely that I reply with something I have A LOT of knowledge. I work in banking technology. Some of the stuff we provide is the software to comply with government regulations such as these. Our software looks for where situations where something odd is happening on somebodies account. It then alerts the bank. At that point the decision is up to them. Banks hate this. And my company hates this. We provide the technology as an optional add on to software necessary to make the bank work. Everything from teller interfaces, check printing, check imaging, ach transactions and so on. By purchasing this from us, they save on the manpower necessary to monitor all these accounts.

Most banks, especially smaller ones, hate it. It is time consuming and frustrating. And many feel like they are violating the privacy of others. But it is a simple fact that banks get audited ALL THE TIME, and if they do not comply they will be shut down. There are several banks near the Texas Mexico border who did not buy our software. Because of the large amount of cash transactions and and an almost complete lack of SARs they are likely to be shut down. We don't like it either, because despite some additional revenue it brings in, the cost to banks is not worth it. We would rather have them healthy minus a few products, than on the verge of insolvent because they are spending so much money complying with government demands. But the bank needs it so we provide it.

Most banks use software that looks at the frequency and amounts of deposits. If you regularly deposit 3000 a month, and next month you get a 10,000 gift that you deposit you will most likely show up on a report. Most banks will dismiss something like this especially if it is a one time thing. Again. They don't want to know, but they may have to ask.

Of course there are also OFAC scrubs making sure that you or people you are sending money to are not involved in terrorist activity. CTRs for cash transactions over 10,000. And of course the SAR.

Look, I believe that these regulations are an attack on our liberties. But don't get mad at the banks. They are doing what they have to so they are not shut down. And don't ask if they are going to create a Suspicious Activity Report on you. Many banks have the policy of creating one just because you asked. And don't think you can get around CTR's just because you go slightly under 10,000 in a cash transaction. That stuff is tracked also. Your best bet us banking local, with bankers that know you. Get on their good customer list, "Yes most banks have such a list." And if they ask you the reasons for you deposits, politely explain it too them.

I would not be telling you to explain yourself to the government. Just to the bankers, who very likely, if you are honest, will not report anything. But it IS a violation of your privacy. So I certainly don't blame anybody for standing up for themselves.

If any of yall have other questions just ask. I will answer if I am not at work.

Again. I don't want any of you to accept these regulations. Just to understand them.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

[ItsTime]

Thanks man good insight.

[rp4prez]

I would definitely have a lawyer there with you when you talk with them especially since you are worried about the NDA agreements you have in place.

[cindy25]

open a new account at a different banks (or banks) before your account is closed; there is a company called CHEX that many banks use, and a bank will not open a new account if your account was closed for any reason by a bank.

the law might be the same for each bank but some are more govt than others; I know a deli owner whose account was closed by one bank because he sold too many money orders (hence cash) ; the new bank no problem.

generally avoid the NYC headquartered banks, they go above and beyond when it comes to govt, always have, nothing new.

[Agorism]

What did you do or say to provoke them?

[cindy25]

What did you do or say to provoke them?

most likely nothing; banks don't want deposits (they can borrow from the fed for free without the hassle/expense of checks etc)

I suspect they have a new teller or compliance officer who wants to get promoted.

[smartguy911]

So anyone using Paypal for pay for services like design, marketing to folks in Europe and Asia can get in trouble?

[cindy25]

So anyone using Paypal for pay for services like design, marketing to folks in Europe and Asia can get in trouble?

it has nothing to do with Europe; it can be anything, from a Ron Paul sticker, or being in a business that's not liked (gold, guns, mail order, video games)

[Philhelm]

They hate us for our freedom

Will they love us when we're not free...? Rhetorical question.

[Slutter McGee]

most likely nothing; banks don't want deposits (they can borrow from the fed for free without the hassle/expense of checks etc)

I suspect they have a new teller or compliance officer who wants to get promoted.

A new compliance officer who is trying to prove themselves is not out of the question. But most local banks DO WANT DEPOSITS. You have know idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

[daviddee]

,,,

[daviddee]

I told them to fuck off and opened a new account at a different bank and deposited the money over 3 days.

This is a crime in the USA (like most things).

It is called "Structuring".

[GunnyFreedom]

They hate us for our freedom

+rep

[ionlyknowy]

This is a crime in the USA (like most things).

It is called "Structuring".

It is only a crime if he knows that structuring or the activity he is engaged in that is considered structuring is a crime. It is one of the few federal white collar crime laws that require knowledge that the act is a crime to be charged. Structuring is where you try to avoid depositing or making a transaction for 10K or over with the intent to keep the banks from filling out CTRs to send to the government reporting the transaction. Like I said above if he didnt know that it was a crime to do what he did then he did not commit the crime of structuring.

[Jake Ralston]

ItsTime -- Have you considered contacting the media about this violation of your freedom? The more negative publicity we can get out there about the Patriot Act the better. And giving the circumstances, the local media may just run with this.


CAVEAT: I'm not familiar enough with the law to know if this is legal. If it is in fact illegal to contact the media about this, please correct. Thank You.

[cindy25]

there is no law that you can only bank at one bank; these days its prudent. any business could receive a check from someone on a watch list; having several accounts is just common sense. for structuring there has to be pattern, which is next to impossible to prove unless its obvious (transactions of $9,999 or transactions several days in row)

it makes no sense to deposit cash unless needed to cover checks. banks no longer pay interest, and the risk from failure , lawsuit, death tax, loss of govt assistance [ college, medicaid, etc] or seizure not worth it.

the media would not care; their answer would be if you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

[AceNZ]

The questions the bank is likely to ask are simple:

1. Where did the money come from?
2. What is the outgoing money being used for?

In spite of the violation of privacy, it's hard to see how answering these would violate any NDAs (given that the bank probably has most of the info already, such as scans of deposited checks, etc), or why you would need a lawyer there (unless you have reason to believe they might consider your answers to be incriminating).

I've been asked these questions a few times, and so far verbal answers have been enough. If they have reason to suspect your answers aren't truthful or complete, they might ask for additional documentation.

If it gets to be a problem, you might consider moving your account out of the country. That's not as difficult to do these days as it used to be. You would still have to report the account, but at least they shouldn't give you any grief if your pattern of transactions changes.

[cindy25]

I think this could be a case of Patriot Act Excuse; someone ran the figures, found out the bank loses money on you, and wants to get rid of you. it costs over a dollar to process a check you deposit, and banks can't make up for it with the float. Not when they can get free loans from Uncle Ben's printing shop (Aka the Fed)

[sirgonzo420]

And some people try to tell me that there is a difference between our government and the mafia.

There is.

The mafia has "omerta".

To my knowledge, the gov't has no "code of honor".

[ItsTime]

Update: I just got off the phone with the bank. During a "routine patriot act check of the accounts" it was that one international wire a month that set off the red flag, but was not what they were concerned about. Apparently a company I do very little business with, like $200 a month, is being sued by the federal government and the bank wanted to make sure I would not do dealings with them until the case was over.

[squarepusher]

A new compliance officer who is trying to prove themselves is not out of the question. But most local banks DO WANT DEPOSITS. You have know idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

so Slutter, you say banks monitor transactions "near" 10k . So, does that mean a 9k transaction would set off a flag. Or 9.5k? or 9.9k? do they monitor over weeks or months (say 8k + 8k)

thanks peace!

[ItsTime]

so Slutter, you say banks monitor transactions "near" 10k . So, does that mean a 9k transaction would set off a flag. Or 9.5k? or 9.9k? do they monitor over weeks or months (say 8k + 8k)

thanks peace!

The guy I got off the phone with said ANY international wires could set off a flag.