How do we answer the pulling of support for Israel question?

[deedles]

In speaking with my born-again sister, (she really likes Ron Paul) she related to me that the Israel support question is a big thing she encounters when speaking to her friends about RP. She said "they really seem to like him until it gets to the no continued support for Israel, I think that's going to be a problem for him".

I really don't know enough about the issue to offer an answer. I've looked on RPlibrary.com and found a few things. I wish he'd issue a position statement on this topic.

My meetup is working on radio ads targeting Christian stations, so these topics are in the forefront of what we're trying to understand right now.

p.s. please donate to our chip-in if you think our radio ads for Christians is a good idea! Thanks! http://foxvalleywisconsin.chipin.com/ron-paul-radio-ad-campaignoperation-wake-up-wisconsin-christians

[constituent]

i'm not certain what the "christians" think Israel needs our aid for anyway.
correct me if i'm wrong, but are they not a fairly wealthy/prosperous nation?

and the US government doesn't actually have any money, we borrow it...

so why should we borrow money from china, against our childrens' futures,
to pay for israel. let israel borrow the money themselves, cut out the middleman.

[goRPaul]

Yeah, this is a bigger issue than I thought it was. My jewish friend is a Hillary supporter, and he's really adamant that we should stop Iran from getting a nuke. I tell him this is going to become a pre-emptive strike, but he doesn't believe that. So yes, I wish RP had an articulated and accessible stance on Israel specifically and not just the usual humble foreign policy philosophy.

[ItsTime]

he is pulling support from everyone.

[Ron Paul Fan]

Commerce with all nations, entangling alliances with none! Israel has 200-300 nuclear missles and they can take care of themselves! We need a new foreign policy that says we ought to mind our own business, bring our troops home, defend our borders! Who here thinks that Israel couldn't blow Iran out of the water?

[austin356]

Well find some of Dr. Paul's writings on the subject.

It is his contention that removing aid from Israel, was well as all the Muslim nations (US just gave billions to the Saudis), that Israel would be safer.

Israel would:

1)Not be restricted by us when it thought it needed to defend itself
2)Be in a better position to negotiate permanent treaties with Syria and Iran.

Leaving just the Palestinian issue as the last remaining "mega-problem" to deal with. Something we can really not help with since it does not concern us much at all.


Also note that Dr. Paul supported Israel's bombing of Saddam's nuke facility in the early 80s. RR condemned it. UN condemned it. This proves he does not believe Israel should just sit there and allow its enemies to attack and not retaliate.

[Thom1776]

Ron Paul will treat all foreign nations equally. He will not favor any particular nation over another. When you start to build entangling alliances, you just end up with even more enemies.

Ron Paul will deal with Israel on an equal basis with Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran or any other nation in the world.

Israel can take care of itself.

[Tina]

The fact that he won't support Israel is the main reason I am supporting him. So as with everything it goes both ways. Why should we be giving them taxpayer money?? To the tune of 6 billion a year. Answer that please, but please don't give me any religious nonsense. I personally don't care about the religious right position. That's why we are in this mess and in this shameful war.

[michaelwise]

Say; Israel has 300 nuclear bombs, and is a rich country. Israel can deter a nuclear threat, just as the US did against Russia. Or perhaps you are not capable of comprehending this fact.

Tuff Love.

[Brendan]

There are Israelis who believe like this guy:
http://israelilibertarian.blogspot.com/2007/10/questions-for-republican-jewish.html

Sunday, October 21, 2007
Questions for The Republican Jewish Coalition
Questions for the Republican Jewish Coalition

Recently, there was a large hoopla in the libertarian areas of the political Internet about the Republican Jewish Coalition. The Coalition – so did the Internet have it – refused to receive Ron Paul at their “Victory 2008 Republican Jewish Coalition Candidates Forum”. According to a variety of sources, Ron Paul was not allowed to get on the forums because he was 'not seen as a top tier contender' and 'opposed aid to Israel'. Given that the Internet is plagued with the kind of folks that'll blame 'the Israeli lobby' for global warming if you let them loose, I was doubtful.

But given that the editors of http://capitalism.co.il are very interested in the Ron Paul Revolution, I went out and called the RJC myself to verify. RJC's very kind press secretary (whose surname I was, unfortunately, not able to write down) confirmed to me that this was indeed true: Ron Paul was not invited because he was considered a 'long-shot candidate' and because he 'votes against aid to Israel' and 'criticizes the Israeli lobby'.

I will not discuss the first of these statements – the RJC has invited Huckabee, who polls consistently behind Ron Paul in both straw polls and scientific Gallup and Harris polls, and then refused to replace him with Ron Paul when Huckabee refused to arrive at the Candidates Forum. It is clear to me that the main reason for Ron Paul not being invited is the difference in policy between him and the RJC.

Is Ron Paul an enemy of Israel? He clearly isn't. He supported Israel's action against the Osirak reactor when practically everybody – including the Reagan Administration – condemned Israel. He has steadfastly refused to support congressional condemnation of Israel, or military aid to nations like Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

What seems to be the core of the argument? The military aid to Israel. The 2.25 billion dollars per year of funding that Israel receives. For those not in the know, this aid comes in the form of funds that must be spent on American equipment and services – essentially a subsidy for U.S. companies. As such, it is a subsidy program for both Israel's government and the United States' military-industrial complex.

And yet, is this program necessary for Israel's survival, or even beneficial for its well-being? Certainly not according to the Jerusalem Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies, who state outright: “Foreign aid is the greatest obstacle to economic freedom in Israel.” Certainly not according to Binyamin Netanyahu, who, during his tenure as Prime Minister, hinted quite broadly that Israel would be better off without foreign aid.

Foreign aid does not only destroy Israel's indigenous military industries – even now, production of army shoes, Tavor assault rifles, and other items have been shifted in part or in whole across the Atlantic to qualify for the American funds – but it has a more insidious effect. It acts as a crutch for a military bureacracy that is huge, inept, and corrupt.

Not unlike Third World officials who feel they don't need to modernize their economy because the West will keep pumping in aid and money, Israeli Ministry of Defense officials believe that no matter how bad their own screw-ups are, they are safe – as long as they can fall back on American money and weapons.

As a result, the Israeli MoD is capable of immense amounts of waste – wasting, in fact, more Israeli taxpayer money then it receives in aid from America. When I spoke to Knesset Member Yossi Beilin, he told me that the Knesset members are not even allowed to read most of the military budget before passing it. This allows for truly unprecedented amounts of waste.[2]

There is no place here to speak about army units deploying more vehicles then they have personnel[1], army units purchasing brand new armored personnel carriers and allowing them to rust away on the lawn unused until they are beyond repair. Let us just mention that an IDF officer retiring at the rank of major 33 receives $100,000 in benefits, that the amount of generals in the Israeli army rises 80% every ten years. Israel still practices the draft, which recruits thousands of soldiers the country doesn't need for any sensible military use. Ehud Barak, the Minister of Defense, claims 75% of the nation's non-combat soldiers serve no national defense purpose. The hidden economical costs are estimated to be $15,000 per draftee.

And here's the punchline: the budget for the civilian MoD bureaucracy (not the army) comes up to half the sum of US aid to Israel on its own (4-5 billion NIS). Further, according to the Ministry of Defense, only 20% of the military budget funds actual fighting and combat support units. 80% is the cost of bureacracy and rear-echelon units. That comes out to over ten billion dollars – over FOUR TIMES the size of US aid to Israel.

I would understand support for this sort of 'aid' among the American Democrats – they are known to believe that throwing money at problems solves them. But those are Republicans we're talking about here. And thus I have a few questions for any RJC members who happen to be reading this:

You people are smart enough to realize that welfare to African countries doesn't help them develop. Why do you think welfare to Israel is going to have any different effect? You people are smart enough to oppose subsidies for an abortion clinic in Omaha or a farm in Texas. Why are you willing to throw America's money at a government institution thousands of miles away? Why do you insist throwing money at people who let billions of dollars of their own money go to waste pointlessly? Maybe, just maybe, if Israel was deprived of the American government teat, it would use it's own taxpayer money with more efficiency.

Most importantly, why are you so quick to assume that a person who opposes this welfare program is not a candidate whose opinions bears listening to, if not on this one issue, then on others? Does disagreement on this one point make a candidate unlegitimate to you, even though he agrees with the Republican Jewish Coalition on so many others?

Boris Karpa is a libertarian columnist and professional translator in Ashdod, Israel.
He can be contacted at microbalrog@gmail.com

[ButchHowdy]

Ron said that we (The US) actually hinder Israel in many ways, especially in trying to establish peace with Syria.

[constituent]

Given that the Internet is plagued with the kind of folks that'll blame 'the Israeli lobby' for global warming if you let them loose, I was doubtful.



you mean the israeli lobby didn't cause global warming?

[deedles]

I did send the IsraeliLibertarian article to my sister and asked her to pass it on.

The crux of the matter is that Christians believe that the Israelites are God's chosen people and if we pull our support from them, God's blessing to us is gone. I keep trying to tell her that our $$ isn't helping God's chosen people at all, but rather lining the pockets of the corrupt Israeli leaders and causing more trouble around the world.

I'm telling you guys... when all else fails, they are going to pull this issue out of the woodwork and inflame the Christians with it.

As an aside, I don't get how anyone who thought America HAD God's blessing once could still think so! After all the rotten-ness and evil that our governement has perpetrated against peoples around the world, and the masses of American citizens have turned a blind eye to it all?

Maybe I should link her to the stories about the Sephartic (sp?) Jewish children that were irradiated courtesy of America and Israel?

[KewlRonduderules]

This is a very difficult subject and quite controversial. One needs to be careful when discussing this matter because one politically incorrect statement and you can be labeled as a racist, anti-Semite, or Islamic sympathizer.

I have to honestly say that the reason I am supporting Dr. Paul is because of his neutrality toward other countries especially Israel. Not because of Israel per se but because of AIPAC and other powerful lobby groups that support it.

I saw a documentary last past May that completely changed my life forever. I cried for 3 weeks after watching it(seriously). But I think it changed me for the better making me more aware.

If you want to watch it, here it is below. WARNING: this could be emotionally difficult:

http://www.vpro.nl/programma/tegenlicht/afleveringen/34338524/

Click opslaan to play it.

Keep in mind I am Hispanic and most people that I am close to are Jewish.

[Tina]

I did send the IsraeliLibertarian article to my sister and asked her to pass it on.

The crux of the matter is that Christians believe that the Israelites are God's chosen people and if we pull our support from them, God's blessing to us is gone. I keep trying to tell her that our $$ isn't helping God's chosen people at all, but rather lining the pockets of the corrupt Israeli leaders and causing more trouble around the world.

I'm telling you guys... when all else fails, they are going to pull this issue out of the woodwork and inflame the Christians with it.

As an aside, I don't get how anyone who thought America HAD God's blessing once could still think so! After all the rotten-ness and evil that our governement has perpetrated against peoples around the world, and the masses of American citizens have turned a blind eye to it all?

Maybe I should link her to the stories about the Sephartic (sp?) Jewish children that were irradiated courtesy of America and Israel?

Deedles,

Forget about it. The religious right is not going to win this election. If they are not able to think for themselves it is already lost. Real Christians won't be inflamed, only the brainwashed ones will and they don't matter at this point. It is the rest of us now.

[literatim]

I could argue theologically why you absolutely shouldn't support the anti-Christ state of Israel.

[Tina]

They will not 'get it' Literatim. But go for it if you so desire.

[deedles]

We're hoping to find real Christians that are just uninformed. They are out there. When I called the local Christian radio station to inquire about rates for ads, the marketing director shouted "YES! HALLELUJAH I LOVE RON PAUL!" He had seen Freedom to Fascism and that started to open his eyes. He told me 'these people are interested and they vote, they are just so misinformed'. For every 10 that are Foxnews'd to the hilt, there has to be one that can be reached.... and then who will reach others... and others... and others...

[Brendan]

I think you are fighting a losing battle. When a group of people think they are special, or the "chosen ones," they believe they are better than everyone else, even though they may not admit it. It is just another form of bigotry. I am seeing some biblical parallels here. Perhaps you should not cast your pearls before swine, but rather talk to the "gentiles" who will probably be more receptive. lol

[apropos]

Our blanket support of Israel is a little hard to understand when one remembers their bombing of the USS Liberty which killed 34 Americans.

It becomes harder to understand when one compares that to the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which gave LBJ an opportunity to begin the Vietnam War.

[deedles]

Is this in Danish? I can't find an english version. :)

[I saw a documentary last past May that completely changed my life forever. I cried for 3 weeks after watching it(seriously). But I think it changed me for the better making me more aware.

If you want to watch it, here it is below. WARNING: this could be emotionally difficult:

http://www.vpro.nl/programma/tegenlicht/afleveringen/34338524/

Click opslaan to play it.

Keep in mind I am Hispanic and most people that I am close to are Jewish.[/QUOTE]

[Tina]

This topic is too 'hot' for many of us anti war folks. I would appeal to the deaths of so many innocents. If and it's a big IF these people are really 'Christians' they should be able to see the irony. It's not in the least bit funny to me. I also don't appreciate the fact that 'Christians have supported the slaughter of children, torture and everything else this war has caused.

[KewlRonduderules]

The interviews are in English. Whatever narrative there is, it is subtitled (not very much)

;)

[Jimmy]

You don't think this is alittle too much money being given away??

http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/04/26/a-record-day-for-the-irs-a-bad-day-for-the-rest-of-us/

48.7 Billion dollars collected...an all time high this year....wonder how much was just given away???

23 BILLION...thats how much!

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=June&x=20060609155345AKllennoCcM0.3621942

Time for some folks to stand on there own and not off the backs of US taxpayers.

[deedles]

:eek:
This topic is too 'hot' for many of us anti war folks. I would appeal to the deaths of so many innocents. If and it's a big IF these people are really 'Christians' they should be able to see the irony. It's not in the least bit funny to me. I also don't appreciate the fact that 'Christians have supported the slaughter of children, torture and everything else this war has caused.

See, this is what I don't get either. How on earth can you say you are a Christian and support this murder of innocents that is going on over there? I asked a Israel-firster at work today about this killing of innocents and he said "the more the better". When I brought up that Israel has enough firepower to level about the whole middle east he just poo-poohed me and said "we have to back them up... I like Ron Paul a lot but that's where he loses me."

Maybe I should send him that awful and powerful video that someone linked to the other night on here. Gruesome photos of dead Iraqi children. I couldn't even bring myself to send it out but maybe I should..?

[Tina]

You don't think this is alittle too much money being given away??

http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/04/26/a-record-day-for-the-irs-a-bad-day-for-the-rest-of-us/

48.7 Billion dollars collected...an all time high this year....wonder how much was just given away???

23 BILLION...thats how much!

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=June&x=20060609155345AKllennoCcM0.3621942

Time for some folks to stand on there own and not off the backs of US taxpayers.

grrrr...

[cjhowe]

In speaking with my born-again sister, (she really likes Ron Paul) she related to me that the Israel support question is a big thing she encounters when speaking to her friends about RP. She said "they really seem to like him until it gets to the no continued support for Israel, I think that's going to be a problem for him".

I really don't know enough about the issue to offer an answer. I've looked on RPlibrary.com and found a few things. I wish he'd issue a position statement on this topic.

My meetup is working on radio ads targeting Christian stations, so these topics are in the forefront of what we're trying to understand right now.

p.s. please donate to our chip-in if you think our radio ads for Christians is a good idea! Thanks! http://foxvalleywisconsin.chipin.com/ron-paul-radio-ad-campaignoperation-wake-up-wisconsin-christians

Wow, 26 replies and no one answered YOUR question. We as a forum really need to take a "listening" class. Christian's fascination with Israel comes from Genesis 12:3



From NIV
God speaking to Abram (Abraham)
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."


If who you're speaking with believes this is prophetic into today's times where Abram = Israel, the question then becomes, "What does it mean to bless Israel?"

Does it mean to defend her from all foes?
Well, Zechariah 12:8 says that God will defend the inhabitants of Israel. So defence is God's job. Does a Christian doubt that God will defend her? If so, what happened to faith?

Does it mean to make decisions for her, like we do by getting in the middle of Israel's negotiations with Syria and Saudi Arabia and the Palestinians? Seeing as Bush is getting in the middle of things and calling for a Palestinian state, this doesn't seem like a blessing to Israel unless that was their choice.

It seems difficult to understand what it means to bless another nation, but it is rather clear that what we are doing isn't it.

[Channing]

Say this:
If the US also cancels its military aid for various Arab states such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt and removes its presence of troops in the region and stops threatening the nations in the region with war, then the whole situation in the Middle East will become less tense and thus actually more secure for Israel.

[walt]

Ron Paul will treat all foreign nations equally. He will not favor any particular nation over another. When you start to build entangling alliances, you just end up with even more enemies.

Ron Paul will deal with Israel on an equal basis with Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran or any other nation in the world.

Israel can take care of itself.

Bingo - tough break for Bradley in DC - who based on his actions on this issue isn't truly a supporter of Ron Paul fully and totally.

[Tina]

Her question was answered. Just not in the way you thought it should be.

[Tina]

Sacred cows are not acceptable in a presidential campaign IMO.

[leipo]

Is this in Danish? I can't find an english version. :)

No, it's Dutch ;) This is indeed a very good documentary on the subject.
But how do you mean, you can't find an english version. The documentary has english subtitles where the voice-over speaks dutch and for the most part it's americans being interviewed (without dutch subtitles).
Here is a direct link to the high quality stream:

http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/vpro/tegenlicht/bb.theisraellobby.asf

[tsetsefly]

Ron Paul will treat all foreign nations equally. He will not favor any particular nation over another. When you start to build entangling alliances, you just end up with even more enemies.

Ron Paul will deal with Israel on an equal basis with Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran or any other nation in the world.

Israel can take care of itself.

I dont think that is true, your second statement, Syria and Iran are ruled by madmen and cannot be treated as equally as Israel, not giving aid to Israel doesn't mean he doesnt support self defense of Israel, in fact he was one of the few in congress that backed Israel in the bombing of Saddam's nuclear capabilities in the 80's that str8 from his statement in an interview earlier this year...

[cjhowe]

Her question was answered. Just not in the way you thought it should be.

Just not in a way that has anything to do with Christianity, other than to ridicule it.

[ValidusCustodiae]

I'm not sure if you guys realize what you're up against, having read this entire thread.

I knew this would be a stumbling block all along. There is a strong sentiment among evangelical christians and offshoots like the mormons that support of the state of Israel. Freemasons also have a vested interest in the support of Israel, since they plan someday to rebuild the temple of King Solomon (which unfortunately for Muslims will require the demolition of two of their holiest sites, the Al'Aqsah mosque and the Dome of the Rock). B'nai B'rith freemasons (freemasons in Israel) are at the visible head of this movement which covers the globe.

Conspiracy theorist me this and that, blah blah. We all know Ron Paul is the only top tier candidate who is not a CFR member. And we are all aware that he does not cater to any special interests or lobbies. How many of you are aware that Romney, McCain, Giuliani, Clinton, Obama, AND Edwards are each following AIPAC policies in LOCK STEP?

You can look at the whole situation and wonder why, or you can do some research. I did the latter.

At any rate, like I said, we're up against a mountain with this one. All I can say is that we have to outvote them. Converting them is going to be inefficient.

[RP4ME]

and remind her Paul is not singleing out isreal it just he doesnt belive in giving Aid abroad.

Ask her from an economic basis how we are to afford this? The Bible discourages being a borower and tell her we are borrwing to do this and are now the biggest debtor nation in the world and in that case does sending money to a first world country like Isreal make sense logically and spiritually? And that we are not someones enemy b/c we dont go into debt for them.....I dont belive we Bless Isreal in thsi manner or ourselves in fact i think we disrespect ourselves and are operating contrary to what God would have us do and contrary to logic.

Oh and I am a believer who was at one time brainwashed into beliveing all this. Tell her Karl rove got into the church and thats where this is coming form- the church did not get into this administration...they see Christains as pawns....I learned this late in the game....Tell her to look up Strauss which is who the Neocons admire and you will see a commie and one who belives religion is a tool to be used to herd sheep.

[KewlRonduderules]

How many of you are aware that Romney, McCain, Giuliani, Clinton, Obama, AND Edwards are each following AIPAC policies in LOCK STEP?

Me.

:)

[Adamsa]

I like this line I made up:

"Isreal is a big boy now, it can take care of itself."

[Falseflagop]

Now please answer me how and what do they do for us the USA to make them our best ally?

1) They steal secrets from our defense dept.
2) The bombed the USS Liberty intenationally and in essence declared WAR on us.
3) 90% of the Radio and TV Talk show host regardless of Party (Air America) or Rush type are Jewish/Zionist or Christain/Zonist that brainwash your mind daily that Israel is great. Tell that to the family of Rachael Corrie.
4) Why isn't the LOBBY or Israel ever ever discussed on TV or Radio? I tried to get on talk radio (they were discussing IRAN) and I said I wanted to talk about the Israel lobby influence in drumming the war drums for Iran. The screener said sorry that will not happen. I rest my case, they are Gatekeepers on the right and the left (Air America, they blame Bush, Cheney, Bush Chebey) Yet the true power the AIPAC, the ADL who are the puppet masters.
5) Takes billions in USA taxpayer money!

Watch what Ralph Nader says in 18 seconds priceless!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rD_rWcDRZQ

[Tina]

Just not in a way that has anything to do with Christianity, other than to ridicule it.

That is correct. What is your problem with that. It should be ridiculed for the false impression of goodness.

[ConstitutionGal]

How many of you are aware that Romney, McCain, Giuliani, Clinton, Obama, AND Edwards are each following AIPAC policies in LOCK STEP?


I'd wager that a lot of us know that as well as being aware of just how much of our foreign policy is almost completely controlled by AIPAC (along with the vast majority of our media and movie-making outlets). Like someone pointed out earlier - research, research, research.

[cjhowe]

That is correct. What is your problem with that. It should be ridiculed for the false impression of goodness.

Wow. If you're ever able to convince a Christian to vote Ron Paul, there must be a god.

[Tina]

I never try to do that. I see the futility of it. They cannot exist together if Israel is in the mix.

[cjhowe]

I never try to do that. I see the futility of it. They cannot exist together if Israel is in the mix.

Which goes back to not answering the OP. He wants to convince Christians to vote Ron Paul.

[Tina]

To cjhowe... Have you seen what this war has done to the people?? Stick your head in the sand and pretend that it has not been a genocide against an innocent public. Show me that it is a false statement.

[cjhowe]

To cjhowe... Have you seen what this war has done to the people?? Stick your head in the sand and pretend that it has not been a genocide against an innocent public. Show me that it is a false statement.

What does that have to do with this thread?

[Tina]

Which goes back to not answering the OP. He wants to convince Christians to vote Ron Paul.

I have already said that I do not care about this demographic. Cults don't matter. The Christian right is not what will win this election. Many of us are sick of them.

You can ignore the gorilla in the room. The anit-war people are coming into your house.

[KewlRonduderules]

Hey people I'd watch out for the rest of this thread.

Be cautious of troll activity.

:)

[Perry]

I just don't have the energy for this at the moment. If one really does the research they will find that Paul is actually "pro" Israel. He just doesn't feel that the American taxpayer should be subsidizing ANY nation that is not our own. I am a Zionist and I know many other Zionists who are pro Ron Paul. If they are online tell them to go to a site like Rapture ready forums in the election2008 section and read what they think. Huge amount of Paul support over there among Zionist/fundamentalist Christians.

[imaginegirl]

First off, I've read this entire thread. Secondly, I'm a follower of my creator. I'll intentionally not use the word "Christian" as clearly the term has a bad connotation due to some of its extreme religious, legalistic followers. I personally believe Jesus came to set us free - not give us a bunch of rules to follow. And I'm not pushing that belief on anyone - my life is my testimony. I also believe in our constitution. It is supposed to uplift our freedom, not create more laws, so many that they begin to make it impossible for us to live our daily lives.

Secondly, I agree Israel can take care of herself. Israel needs to learn its own lessons as we are learning when it comes to managing money. Even if they have to learn the hard way. Also, how does our government, trying to convince Israel to give up more of her rightful land (such as half of Jerusalem) promote peace? What about the millions of $$'s we've given the Palistinians, Syrians, etc to stay OUT of Israel? & now we're turning the tables & trying to convince Israel the right thing to do is let them in?

I agree there are members of their government/military, etc who are corrupt. Look at our government - who are we to judge when we hear every day about corruption, terrorizing prisoners (guilty OR innocent), the lack of a real justice system, etc. in our own backyard? I say we quit judging & let Israel live their lives, defend themselves (which they're MORE than capable of doing) and quit trying to run their country & tell them how "we" think it should be done. & I believe Ron Paul feels the same way.

That's just my 2 cents. I'm voting for Ron Paul.

[cjhowe]

Hey people I'd watch out for the rest of this thread.

Be cautious of troll activity.

:)

I don't think it's been trollish activity, just immature and unfocused.

[Tina]

I just don't have the energy for this at the moment. If one really does the research they will find that Paul is actually "pro" Israel. He just doesn't feel that the American taxpayer should be subsidizing ANY nation that is not our own. I am a Zionist and I know many other Zionists who are pro Ron Paul. If they are online tell them to go to a site like Rapture ready forums in the election2008 section and read what they think. Huge amount of Paul support over there among Zionist/fundamentalist Christians.


That is a lie. Paul is not pro Israel. If you are indeed a Zionist I don't know what you are doing here. I can only assume you don't know what that word means.

[jj111]

Ron Paul Isolationism in his own words

7/5/07 Radio Interview with Michael Smerconish

9:40 minute

Michael Smerconish: Do you call this view of the world an isolationist policy?

Ron Paul: I don’t. Some like to accuse me of that, but I’m the opposite of an isolationist. I’m a free-trader, and I like low tariffs; I like travel, and I like to be friends with everybody. I think what we have today is diplomatic isolationism. When you think about it, we have more enemies and less allies than ever before, we go it alone, and I think we have become an isolationist nation. But my position is a lot different than that.

Michael Smerconish: One other on this score. I love having this conversation. I’m generally enthused about what you say our foreign policy should be. What do we do about our friends in Israel?

Ron Paul: I think just like so much of our foreign policy has unintended consequences, I think we have literally put Israel in a weakened position. Israel can take of herself. She has 200 or 300 nuclear weapons. Nobody’s going to touch her. She can take care of anybody over there. By us perpetually giving Israel money, Israel can’t do what she has to do for herself – they have to get permission from us, or we say “we won’t give you our money unless you take orders from us.” And besides, Israel without us there taking care of her day to day, Israel would be more likely to pursue peace with Syria. They want to now, but we stop Israel from pursuing any peace treaty with Syria. So I think in the long run, we harm Israel. A lot of people won’t accept that, but I sincerely believe that. Israel is very capable. The whole problem with my position is they say “you don’t care about Israel”, but if what I say could possibly be true, we may be doing Israel more harm than good.

[allyinoh]

In speaking with my born-again sister, (she really likes Ron Paul) she related to me that the Israel support question is a big thing she encounters when speaking to her friends about RP. She said "they really seem to like him until it gets to the no continued support for Israel, I think that's going to be a problem for him".

I really don't know enough about the issue to offer an answer. I've looked on RPlibrary.com and found a few things. I wish he'd issue a position statement on this topic.

My meetup is working on radio ads targeting Christian stations, so these topics are in the forefront of what we're trying to understand right now.

p.s. please donate to our chip-in if you think our radio ads for Christians is a good idea! Thanks! http://foxvalleywisconsin.chipin.com/ron-paul-radio-ad-campaignoperation-wake-up-wisconsin-christians

I thought he didn't support sending money and weapons, ie aid to them. But we can still support Israel as a friend.

We can't treat Israel as a third world country and we should not be giving them money.

If I'm wrong, sorry but I just thougth it had to do with foreign aid.

[steph3n]

I have already said that I do not care about this demographic. Cults don't matter. The Christian right is not what will win this election. Many of us are sick of them.

You can ignore the gorilla in the room. The anit-war people are coming into your house.

you are the ignorant one here, we do support Dr Paul, many of us do. Stop the insults or I will start insulting you, privately.

[steph3n]

That is a lie. Paul is not pro Israel. If you are indeed a Zionist I don't know what you are doing here. I can only assume you don't know what that word means.

i think you may be the one misguided, we are a broad range of people in this coutnry, Ron Paul is good for ALL, not just for you, or me for that matter.

[nbhadja]

We are the United States of AMERICA. Tell them who cares about Israel. Seriously, why in the world do we care about them?? Let them fight themselves to bankruptcy and death, after all they can never stop fighting.

[Nathan Hale]

Folks, if you ever want to turn a person off to our support for Israel, it only takes nine letters:

USS Liberty

Do a quick google search on the term. I guarantee you won't support our annual tithe to the Israeli war machine ever again.

[American]

If anyone wants SPECIAL treatment for any lobbying group then Ron Paul isnt for them. This is about equality and being fair.

We have just ruined our middle eastern relationships by favoring Israel over the Palestinians, if we had had a more evewn hand over there we wouldnt even have a terrorist problem at all.

you follow the history behind this, you will see this is and has been about Israel. If we go to war with Iran, its not about OUR security its about Israels security. They dont have a bomb, they cant even get it here if they did, this is about Irans threat to Israel.

I've researched this allot, also a really good book to read or direct people to is "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"
(http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S-Foreign-Policy/dp/0374177724/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0896277-7923332?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193710891&sr=8-1)

This is a reader review about the book.


This book is stunning. The two authors are prominent political scientists with impeccable credentials, hailing from Harvard and the University of Chicago. They have boldly gone where many of their academic colleagues would fear to tread. Although their conclusions about Israel and its negative influence on American foreign policy will awaken much anxiety, resentment and fury in certain quarters, Walt and Mearsheimer don't seem to care. Why not? They are scientists. They appeal to logic, facts and common sense; and let the conclusions fall where they may. The writing is calm, dispassionate, thorough. The basic argument is that the extraordinarily high degree of economic, military and diplomatic support given to Israel by the United States cannot be explained or justified by the notion that Israel functions as a strategic asset to the U.S., or that Israel as the "only democracy" amidst a sea of authoritarian neighbors is deserving of special favor for its "shared interests and values". In fact, the authors claim, Israel is more a liability than an asset. During the Cold War, the strategic-value argument had perhaps some plausibility -- but no longer. What has replaced the Soviet menace, as the enemy which the U.S. supposedly needs Israel's help to combat, is Islamic terrorism. But the U.S. favor shown to Israel at the expense of the Palestinians only makes us more not less vulnerable to terrorism. Furthermore Israel's cruelty towards the Palestinians and its essential nature as a Jewish but not a truly democratic state in which all citizens of whatever ethnicity or religion would be given equal rights and respect, belie the "shared values" argument.

So if neither "shared values" nor "strategic asset" can explain the overwhelming U.S. support of Israel, what else is there? The power of the Israel lobby, which has brought about a situation in which it is impossible for elected officials to question support for Israel, much less redirect foreign policy in any way contrary to the perceived self-interest of Israel. This has led the U.S. to make critical mistakes, such as invading and occupying Iraq. The war on Iraq has proven disastrous; the authors argue that the U.S. would not have attacked Iraq, were it not for the influence of the Israel lobby.

In the end, perhaps what is most significant and remarkable about this book is that it has seen the light of day. It got published. Could it be that there is still hope for reasonable, open debate about the right courses of action in the Middle East? The authors have been and will continue to be vilified as anti-Semitic or worse. They are owed a debt of gratitude for having the courage to stand up and to refuse to be silenced.

People need to get past the anti-semitic bullshit and read this very accurate report from two very well respected people.

[Brendan]

A friend of mine who is a hardcore Pentecostal, is a Ron Paul supporter, and agrees with RP's Israel stance. My friend feels that the government should not be subsidizing Israel, but US citizens can personally donate all they want to Israel's benefit, much like many US citizens donated to the IRA. I take it one step further and say that these chickenhawk evangelicals should personally go fund and form their own private army, or join the Israeli army, and contribute in that manner, instead of sending US soldiers to be killed for their cause.

[James R]

In speaking with my born-again sister, (she really likes Ron Paul) she related to me that the Israel support question is a big thing she encounters when speaking to her friends about RP. She said "they really seem to like him until it gets to the no continued support for Israel, I think that's going to be a problem for him".

I really don't know enough about the issue to offer an answer. I've looked on RPlibrary.com and found a few things. I wish he'd issue a position statement on this topic.

My meetup is working on radio ads targeting Christian stations, so these topics are in the forefront of what we're trying to understand right now.

p.s. please donate to our chip-in if you think our radio ads for Christians is a good idea! Thanks! http://foxvalleywisconsin.chipin.com/ron-paul-radio-ad-campaignoperation-wake-up-wisconsin-christians

The answer is that we are not pulling out our support for Israel. We are pulling $15 billion in foreign aid from the country because they are a very wealthy country with a powerful army and therefore our money is better spent on Americans. Those who wish to support Israel can send money to Israel them self. If we really believe that Israel needs our financial support, then we will voluntarily donate to the cause on our own. Furthermore, it is not right to give 15 billion away when it is borrowed money. America should not collectively borrow money for charity.

[Perry]

That is a lie. Paul is not pro Israel. If you are indeed a Zionist I don't know what you are doing here. I can only assume you don't know what that word means.

You obviously are not a Christian fundamentalist. Do you know that Ron Paul is? Do you know what the nation of Israel means to Christian fundamentalists? Perhaps YOU do not know what a Zionist is. Do you know that Zionism has been hijacked by extremists over the past 30 years?

Sorry if you feel I am lying. All I can do is encourage you to open your mind and accept the fact that you don't have all the answers and that maybe the world is not so black & white as you perceive it to be.

[constituent]

ok.... time to rapture this sucker away to hot topics.

[steph3n]

A friend of mine who is a hardcore Pentecostal, is a Ron Paul supporter, and agrees with RP's Israel stance. My friend feels that the government should not be subsidizing Israel, but US citizens can personally donate all they want to Israel's benefit, much like many US citizens donated to the IRA. I take it one step further and say that these chickenhawk evangelicals should personally go fund and form their own private army, or join the Israeli army, and contribute in that manner, instead of sending US soldiers to be killed for their cause.

Well I tend to agree, but more than that, if we continue on the current path as we have for some time now, if Israel was ever to REALLY need help we'd be too broke to do so, and unable to aid at all, so driving us to the ground with the current policy is NOT in Israel's best interest either :eek:

anyone supporting unconditional aid of Israel has not studied history via the bible (or torah) either. Israel REPEATEDLY defied the will of God and he was having to redirect their path many times through force. Just because they are the chosen people of God does not mean they are without fault.

[Bradley in DC]

Paul was in Congress when Israel bombed Iraq's Osirak nuclear plant in 1981 and — unlike the United Nations and the Reagan administration — defended its right to do so. He says Saudi Arabia has an influence on Washington equal to Israel's. His votes against support for Israel follow quite naturally from his opposition to all foreign aid. There is no sign that they reflect any special animus against the Jewish state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/magazine/22Paul-t.html

[Tina]

[QUOTE=Perry;328031]You obviously are not a Christian fundamentalist. Do you know that Ron Paul is? Do you know what the nation of Israel means to Christian fundamentalists? Perhaps YOU do not know what a Zionist is. Do you know that Zionism has been hijacked by extremists over the past 30 years?

Sorry if you feel I am lying. All I can do is encourage you to open your mind and accept the fact that you don't have all the answers and that maybe the world is not so black & white as you perceive it to be.[/QUOI .

I can barely answer that because because your response is so convoluted. Ron Paul is not a fundamentalist. I do know what a Zionist is, you do not.

[Kregener]

ItsTime beat me to it...

[Tina]

GAG I thought this was a different party.

[Tina]

Move it. The men here can't handle the truth. Hide the thread. That is Americas fate.

[RP4ME]

Folks, if you ever want to turn a person off to our support for Israel, it only takes nine letters:

USS Liberty

Do a quick google search on the term. I guarantee you won't support our annual tithe to the Israeli war machine ever again.

yeah but sadly not many know about that

[Kregener]

The level of disinfo ingestion here is astounding sometimes...

[RP4ME]

The level of disinfo ingestion here is astounding sometimes...

and misrepresentation:(

[cjhowe]

Move it. The men here can't handle the truth. Hide the thread. That is Americas fate.

It's called stay on topic, if you want to discuss something else, start your own thread.

[Captain Shays]

With everything else thats been said, I might ad that the United States of America is not Israel's protection. God is. To imply that we protect His chosen people is blasphemy because we're attributing to us, what is His.

If there are a bunch of people here who send them money, buy their products, pray for them, visit their country etc, we are blessing them.
If we hold them back from eradicating the PLO we are cursing them.

If we stopp them from taking over Jerusalem we may be doing the work of the dark side.

[gworrel]

Most of the comments in this thread have had a distinctly collectivist assumption to them. One of the major concepts in libertarian thought is that people are allowed to keep their own money to use as they wish. The government has no money to give to Israel. It only has money that has been taken from taxpayers.

Our government not only gives money to Israel but to hundreds of other "causes" both foreign and domestic. One argument is that the constitution does not authorize such "giving". (Which is really taking and then giving because the government has no money of its own.)

Another argument is that by allowing the government to take our money to give to causes which we might favor and approve means they are also using our money to give to causes which we do not favor and disapprove.

Ending such taking and giving means that we have our own money to donate to whichever causes we wish. This is called freedom. Do your Christian friends feel that it is ok to force others to do as they do? Would they steal from a neighbor who they felt was not supporting Israel enough so they could make the donation for them?

With regard to some "worthy causes", you may get the rebuttal that "Some people will not give their fair share". My response is yes, but others may donate their whole lives to the problem. Mother Theresa is such a person who gave more than her fair share to a problem she believed in. We each should be free to respond to the problems we see in the world with our own time and money but not with other people's time and money.

[strategos]

The fact that he won't support Israel is the main reason I am supporting him. So as with everything it goes both ways. Why should we be giving them taxpayer money?? To the tune of 6 billion a year. Answer that please, but please don't give me any religious nonsense. I personally don't care about the religious right position. That's why we are in this mess and in this shameful war.

The fact that he won't is the MAIN reason. Gosh i can think of 50 more relevant reasons, the economy and personal freedoms being two. People often support Israel not because of religious reasons but because it is a democracy in the hellhole that is the middleeast. This is one position of his I'm not so hot on, I understand non-interventionism but of all the places to help, Israel is probably the most important tactically and in our best interest.

[Axiom]

Israel doesn't need us protecting them because they have a second trike nuclear capability, the most powerful defensive deterrent in the world:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/24/AR2006082401050.html

Do you really think Iran (or anyone else) will destroy Israel (with their own religious holy land) when they know a retaliatory second strike from Israel will destroy them as well?

[strategos]

the threat i from terrorists groups mostly, not nations. However, Israel can't use nuclear weapons as that tactic incites terrible war... Really the transfer of arms planes and some technology is what America gives them nukes don't defend from terrorists and would be used.

[RonFan1776]

Okay, so I decided to write a response on this matter due to my mother-in-laws support of the Iraq war based on a need to support Israel. So anyway, maybe it will be useful to someone else:



It was mentioned to me that the two of you had spoken about the war in Iraq, and the topic came up on how there is a need to support that region because of our relationship with Israel. I have heard this reasoning before, and I wanted to attempt to bring some resources together here to try and help explain an alternative view of how we can support Israel.

First, we should lay out some facts for use in our discussion.

Israel is a wealthy and prosperous nation. The IMF has Israel's GDP per capita at $31,561, for a ranking of 22nd of all nations. They are in good company at that spot, with Germany, Italy, France, and Japan ranked 20th-24th.

Israel is one of only 9 countries with nuclear weapons. Three other similar countries with nuclear weapons are India, Pakistan, and North Korea. With somewhere around 300 nuclear weapons Israel is believed to have more nukes than those three countries combined. Israel also has nuclear-strike capable submarines that allow for second-strike retaliation against large scale attacks.

Given the fact that Israel is one of a handful of nuclear states in the world, it is unreasonable to imagine that Israel has any issue with defending itself at this time. They certainly have no need for our intervention or protection, as they have proved that are quite capable of defending themselves through conventional military means as well.

If we go back and look at the financial situation, we are currently sending nearly $3 Billion a year in aid to Israel. Israel is far and away the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid - more than any country in the world! We should be asking ourselves why a country that ranks next to Germany and Japan in GDP needs that kind of continuing financial support from our government.

Sadly, our aid to Israel has real implications for the U.S. and Israel relations in the middle east. By giving aid to Israel we must also give large amounts of aid to other middle eastern countries, lest we risk making enemies. Undoubtedly much of this money ends up invested into military weapons that are used to fuel the fires on both sides of the conflict that has been raging in the area.

What about Ron Paul, is he an enemy of Israel? He clearly isn't. He supported Israel's action against the Osirak reactor when practically everybody – including the Reagan Administration – condemned Israel. He has steadfastly refused to support congressional condemnation of Israel, or military aid to nations like Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

Is there an alternative to our current position?

What if we stopped funding both sides of the conflict by cutting our financial aid? What if we stopped our military intervention by adopting a neutral, diplomatic role in the middle east?

Currently we intervene in the middle east by waging war and occupying various Muslim countries. Without our intervention, Israel would be in a much better position to defend itself when it thought it needed to and at the same time negotiate permanent treaties with Syria and Iran. As it stands now, the U.S. occupations cause hostilities to flare and prevents any sort of real progress in the region. Much of the tension that continues is due to our actions. We could actually support Israel in a much better way by removing our presence from the Middle East.

Our interventions (both economic and military) do not make us safer. They do not make Israel safer. So why then do we relentlessly continue to pursue them? The truth is that our foreign policy has been hijacked by a group of neoconservatives that wish to make the world in their image. To accomplish this goal, they have gone so far as to lie to the citizens of the United States about false terrorist and WMD threats in Iraq in order to employ a pre-emptive war. Is it any wonder that these politicians receive more in campaign contributions from the military industrial complex than anyone else?

At some point we all have to realize that our country cannot impose its will around the world and not suffer repercussions. The founding fathers knew this. Jefferson summed up the noninterventionist foreign policy position perfectly in his 1801 inaugural address: "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none." Washington similarly urged that the U.S. must "Act for ourselves and not for others," by forming an "American character wholly free of foreign attachments."

At the same time, our founding fathers were not isolationists. We need to trade freely with other countries, and engage them openly in discourse. Ron Paul of course says it best, "I believe our founding fathers had it right when they argued for peace and commerce between nations, and against entangling political and military alliances."

We should have a strong national defense. Ron Paul is the President who would make our country safer by bringing our troops home from around the world. Ron Paul would stop protecting the borders in occupied foreign countries, and begin protecting our borders at home. Ron Paul is the President who would halt the freefall of our dollar by stopping the trillion dollars a year of overseas military spending that we have to borrow from other countries.

In this time, more than ever, we need a President with principled integrity. We need a statesman to lead our country out of the absolute mess that it is in now.

With Love,

<me>


Sources:

"List of countries by GDP per capita"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

"List of states with nuclear weapons"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_with_nuclear_weapons

"U.S. Foreign Aid Summary"
http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm

"2003 Invasion of Iraq"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq

"Neoconservatism"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

"Neutrality and dialogue, not intervention, will secure peace" - Ron Paul (1997)
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=21

"Our Incoherent Foreign Policy Fuels Middle East Turmoil" - Ron Paul (2002)
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=281

"American Foreign Policy and the Middle East Powder Keg" - Ron Paul (2002)
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=246

[Chickensoup]

The big issue with Isreal foreign aid and all other foreign aids just like it is clearly mapped out in Ron Paul's book A Foreign Policy of Freedom.

1) American foreign policy over the past century has been to subsidize one side of a conflict, then when they do something we don't like them doing, we subsidize the other simultaniously. This is both burdonsome on the taxpayer and idiotic foreign relations wise as we build enemies on both sides. For instance right now we are allied with India, while at the same time allied with Pakistan. Two countries who have nuclear weapons and fight over Kashmir. What sense does that make? Who do we support if relations geet worse between them?

2) American foreign aid is used to prop up American political interests in the economy while disregarding that governments human rights abuses and totalitarian regimes

3) The buck only goes one way. If America is threatened we can only count on a handful of countries to come to OUR aid when needed. If China/Russia/Whomever attacked us today we could only realistically count on England, Germany, Australia, India and Japan to provide any sort of support that would actually matter. Yes those are some of the industrial powerhouses. However we have given trillions of dollars to other countries in foreign aid that could at no time realistically do anything at all for us. How is this good for the defense of US? Why is it the US taxpayers burdon to provide defense not just for the US, but for houndreds of other nations? Specifically why are we aiding nations that have nuclear weapon capability?

Those are the arguments I use when people bring up the Isreal questions. It has'nt been a huge success but I have been able to convert one person

[cindy25]

in a general election cutting off aid to Israel will win votes:
1) Jews are only 2% of the population, will vote for the Democrat anyway, and live mostly in New York. But Hillary will carry New York no matter who is the nominee and what he says.
2) the really hard core Christian Zionists will never vote for Hillary.
3) a balanced foreign policy with no aid to Israel could help RP carry Michigan, with its large Moslem population.

[sugaki]

Ugh, I'm not going to even bother with the ad hominem barrage against Christianity (ironic that Christians are supposed to be the narrow-minded ones, yet I wade through all this gunk from the other side).

I'll say flatly that I'm pro-Israel. I think Israel is God's chosen people, and that He will bless those who bless them, curse those who curse them. I'm in sort of disagreement with RP on this topic--but not in ways that most neocons are.

I think people greatly misunderstand what this underlying theology means in a practical sense. It doesn't mean condoning carte blanche Israel's actions against Lebanon, Palestinians. Where past US administrations failed is their implicit approval of Israel's more violent (and fruitless) strategies, such as launching Hellfire missiles into crowded slum neighborhoods to assassinate one (replaceable and expendable) Hamas leader. That generates indignation from the international community against the US. I find Israel's policies in frequent violation of God's commands, to love your neighbor, treat foreigners in your midst with respect (because Jews were foreigners when they were slaves in Egypt), love your enemy (Joel preaching to the Assyrians in spite of their war against Israel).

So for US to be faithful to the bible and to "bless" Israel, it's not to have a blind eye to the wrongs that Israel is committing. I think by and large the Bush admin has been doing this, and isn't exactly a stellar example of what I believe US's obligation to Israel should be. Blessing Israel could also mean telling them how NOT to deal with terrorists (that is, steamrolling over neighborhoods with armored bulldozers), so that they may deal with the situation in a more God-honoring way. And blowing up a car with Fatah fighters in a crowded street is not one of them.

The bible says to love your neighbor. I think that encompasses not only fellow US citizens, but also the international community as a whole. This is where I detract from RP's philosophy. The love is a universal doctrine, and isn't just restricted to national borders, because all are God's creation, regardless of race, gender or creed.

In practice RP's philosophy IS isolationism, because it perceives foreign nations as strictly being economic partners, not military allies. This flatly is NOT how the founding fathers operated. I mean, US allied with France in 1778 with the Treaty of Alliance--how could he of missed that? Spain sided with US as well, albeit for its own strategic purposes. So from the very inception of the nation, the founding fathers have had a dramatically different outlook on foreign policy than Ron Paul. This is where I find Ron Paul the weakest.

Not to mention, does trade go into military equipment trading? Avionics? Selling nukes? Trade inevitably brings conflict into the picture. I think RP is a bit idealistic in thinking that trade itself won't ruffle any feathers (oil, anyone?). Inevitably in the international arena, I think you have to make binding agreements in order to survive. US did that to repel the Royal Navy for the American Revolutionary War, so I hardly think it's a bad thing.

So that's my long-winded answer to the question. In short, I don't support RP's stance on Israel, lol. Nor do I support Bush's stance either, so it's a pick of the lesser evil. Plus, as somebody else said, if Israel is indeed God's people, then God is sufficient for defending Israel. And I believe in that. Israel doesn't "need" US to survive--never has, never will.

[pcosmar]

Israel is indeed God's people, then God is sufficient for defending Israel. And I believe in that. Israel doesn't "need" US to survive--never has, never will.

sugaki, Your bottom line IS the bottom line.
I think ( as a Christian) that our support and interference has been detrimental to Israel.

[sugaki]

sugaki, Your bottom line IS the bottom line.
I think ( as a Christian) that our support and interference has been detrimental to Israel.

From a theological perspective, the US wouldn't help Israel for Israel's sake (after all, if God's on Israel's side then they don't need the help). The US would help Israel for sake of reaping the blessings (and not the curse). Evangelicals want to have close ties w/ Israel so that the US wouldn't be on the brunt end of God's wrath.

But bringing up a hypothetical, if say all Islamic countries would invade Israel (like a repeat of the 1967 war), I wouldn't be opposed to the US intervening--which is a lot more black and white IMO then Israel bombing houses believed to belong to somebody from Hezbollah.

[Dovy]

The issue of supporting Israel among some people surpasses all other considerations as an American citizen. This means that such people have no concept of American interests or the constitution. They buy into the idea that the main role of the United States is to serve as the source of sustenance for the Zionist state of Israel. As an Orthodox Jew I know a thing or two about this subject, and the fact is that many Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that the State of Israel has something to do with the Bible, the Torah. However, this is false. The State of Israel was established by heretics and atheists who hated the Jewish faith more than anything. They have proceeded to defame and desecrate the values of Judaism in myriad ways.

There is the tendency to ignore the fact that the State of Israel is set up to allocate rights to people based on ethnic identity, which would NEVER be tolerated by ANY Americans in our own country.

The main point, however, is that Ron Paul's position has nothing to do with Israel per se. He simply wants to stop foreign military aid and alliances (even when the US has no formal treaties with the Zionist State) among all countries. Israel falls into this category.

[Dovy]

Furthermore, the issue that holds the attention of so many people is related to what is called the Holocaust, which is a dogmatic religion that does not permit any questioning of its beliefs and tenets. Its purpose as a dogma is to guarantee the State of Israel a blank check to do whatever it wishes to the Palestinians and to make them pay for what happened to Jews in Poland (or what did not happen).

[Sandy]

This is an excerpt from Pastor Chuck Baldwin's most recent article, he recently did a presentation on Ron Paul to pastors who gathered in Iowa:). Ron Paul spoke after Chuck Baldwin's presentation :D. Also, his site: http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/ You can find the full article there, is a focus on the home page of the website. Article is called: 'An Appeal to My Fellow Pastors'. Would recommend sending it to your Christian friends. Excerpt:

One thing that Pastor Hartman brought up in our meeting in Iowa was the sentiment of many Christians and pastors to defend Israel. Dr. Paul stated that he did not believe that we do Israel any favors and we actually weaken Israel by our constant meddling and intervention. I agree.

Ron Paul is not Israel's enemy. And neither is he the enemy to Christian liberty and constitutional government.

Ron Paul's non-interventionist and constitutional foreign policy approach would help, not hurt, Israel to resolve tensions with their neighbors. Remember, Israel has more nuclear missiles to defend themselves than all of the Middle East nations combined. Believe me, Israel knows how to defend itself. And know this: America's constant meddling curses Israel more than it blesses.

Also consider this: according to published reports such as this one in the Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/5223477.html , Ron Paul is receiving more donations from military personnel than any other Presidential candidate in either party. Think seriously about this. Our active duty and retired military personnel clearly endorse with their own contributions Ron Paul's non-interventionist position above all others.

[Thurston Howell III]

I'm pretty sure Israel can take care of itself.

[sugaki]

Furthermore, the issue that holds the attention of so many people is related to what is called the Holocaust, which is a dogmatic religion that does not permit any questioning of its beliefs and tenets. Its purpose as a dogma is to guarantee the State of Israel a blank check to do whatever it wishes to the Palestinians and to make them pay for what happened to Jews in Poland (or what did not happen).

Uhhh, reading between the lines, I take it you're a holocaust-denier? Wow.

[savonarola]

In speaking with my born-again sister, (she really likes Ron Paul) she related to me that the Israel support question is a big thing she encounters when speaking to her friends about RP. She said "they really seem to like him until it gets to the no continued support for Israel, I think that's going to be a problem for him".

I really don't know enough about the issue to offer an answer. I've looked on RPlibrary.com and found a few things. I wish he'd issue a position statement on this topic.

My meetup is working on radio ads targeting Christian stations, so these topics are in the forefront of what we're trying to understand right now.

p.s. please donate to our chip-in if you think our radio ads for Christians is a good idea! Thanks! http://foxvalleywisconsin.chipin.com/ron-paul-radio-ad-campaignoperation-wake-up-wisconsin-christians

I am a former "Born Againer." I'm not a former Christian, but I've come to believe the modern movement is based on mass hysteria and emotionalism. This isn't to say all, or even most, "born again" christians aren't genuine. They are, but since emotion dominates the philosophy, they are easily swayed into ridiculous causes.

Personally, I discuss doctrine. I start with the "rapture" and the parable of the fig tree, and question the veracity of modern interpretation. You will not change their views on Israel until you correct their doctrine.

You could also point out that Paul's administration would not be able to destroy everything, in terms of foreign aid. Understandably, Israel's support might be one of the last to go. Point out that we also support their enemies, so ending support to them will cause a net benefit to Israel. Lew Rockwell had an excellent article on that.

You may also point out that we handicap Israel in her own war. Let Israel fight her wars. She is quite capable. Whether we agree with her or not, we can agree that we ought not force others to support her.

Lastly, point out that Paul will do his best to "legalize" individual support. If you want to support Israel, go right ahead. Just don't do it on behalf of the citizens of the united States of America.

[Dovy]

Uhhh, reading between the lines, I take it you're a holocaust-denier? Wow.

It starts with "Holocaust Denial," then continues on to "9/11 Denial," and "Global Warming Denial,"......Each person has the right and obligation to analyze information and weigh arguments and evidence in historical analysis. No one should be shut up or imprisoned by the Thought Police for his/her opinions. That's Stalag 13, not America. Last time I checked my Torah and Jewish laws did not indicate that I did or did not have to accept every last little detail of what the Holocaust Temple tells us to believe. As a Jew I am more than happy to find out that 6 million people weren't killed! Indeed, it's an impossibility anyway. And yes, the pro-Israel forces DO hang WW2 over everyone's heads like a sword of Damocles.

"Of course we have a right to starve out the Palestinians (who caused 9/11). After all, we suffered in WW2, so the Arabs have to pay!" Yuck!!!!

[truthbetold]

A Word For Christians and lovers of Zion.
The G-d of Host tells us that Israel will never again disappear from the face of the earth after the return of Exile to land of Israel. And also we are plainly told by the prophets that making alliances for protection rather than trusting G-d was the reason for the fall of Israel and “The Day the Towers Fell.” (Is 30:35)
"…that take counsel, but not of Me; and that make alliances, but AGAINST MY WILL…"" Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your SHAME, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt YOUR HUMILIATION."

"Their strength is to SIT STILL." And trust in the Lord

Isaiah 30 Clearly says that the reason for the 2,000 year exile was not trusting G-d and paying Egypt for protection. The U.S. has been paying Egypt for peace to the tune of 63 billion dollars to date. This angers G-d today just as it did 2,000 years ago.

Right action cannot arise out falsity. A SAD commentary on Christian society endorsing a unjust war because of their “support of Israel” that is in direct violation of scripture and the Just War Principle of Saint Augustine.
Support Israel with Honor. If the govt stops taking your money and giving it to Egypt, Pakistan ect..that money through the Free Market of IDEAS bring further prosperity and PEACE in Israel.

America Gives Aid to Countries that Persecute Christians and Even Martyrs Christians. The Idea of the US supporting a dictator is treasonous.

A COUNTRY SELLING IT'S CITIZENS AND THEIR CHILDREN INTO DEBT SLAVERY TO TAKE THAT MONEY AND SUPPORT A DICTATOR!! WHAT CHRISTIAN CAN DEFEND THIS?? What Evils are perpetrated on the minds of men in the name of the Lord? Pharasees..

ANYONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE A FOLLOWER OF THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST OR OF THE LAW OF MOSES AND JEWISH PRINCIPLES IS 1) SERIOUSLY SELF DELUDED, THEY HAVE INVESTED THEIR EGO IN SUPPORT OF THE WAR AND CANNOT DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR RUSH TO BE "PATRIOTIC". It would mean DEATH of their Ego. 2) THEY ARE A FOJINO ! FOLLOWER OF JESUS IN NAME ONLY! 3) NAIVE AND IGNORANT, BRAINWASHED, MENTALLY ENSLAVED TO BLIND ADHERANCE TO WHAT OTHERS HAVE TOLD THEM. Conversion is possible but could be cathartic for them. Litterally like a DEAth emotionally. This is why they fight it so hard and are in attack mode now! Ego Enslaves the Mind! Jesus will Free your mind.

“IF YOU GIVE A PHROPHET A GLASS OF WATER YOU SHARE IN HIS REWARD.”

SUPPORT OF ANY OTHER CANDIDATE OTHER THAN RON PAUL FOR THOSE WHO SUPPORT ISRAEL BECAUSE OF RELION THEN LOGICALLY WOULD BE A SIN, wouldn't it??

[truthbetold]

A Ron Paul Presidency is Good for Israel and Jewish People Worldwide.

Dr. Ron Paul has a significant following among Jewish voters, and this group exists to explain this support of those who have risen above the fear spewed by other candidates to see the truth.

Dr. Paul is the only choice for Jews, Zionist, and Christians who respect the rule of law, restricted Executive powers, separation of powers, checks and balances, the Declaration of Independence, and the U.S. Constitution.

Ron Paul is the only choice for Jews and Christians who wish to vote with integrity and who love Zion.
Anti-Semitism has skyrocketed! According to a 2004 study by the Christian Science Monitor by the Anti-Defamation League.

We believe that many well-intentioned organizations, such as the ADL and AIPAC, fuel negative perceptions about Jews by lobbying the U.S. government to support Israel and by divesting U.S. taxpayer dollars to Israel without consent of American taxpayers. Israel would exist as a vibrant nation without U.S. funding.
The U.S. Foreign Policy gives much more money in military and financial aid to dictators and sworn enemies of Israel.

Ron Paul is good for Israel and Good for Jews.

JEWS4RONPAUL.ORG

[FreeTraveler]

Say this:
If the US also cancels its military aid for various Arab states such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt and removes its presence of troops in the region and stops threatening the nations in the region with war, then the whole situation in the Middle East will become less tense and thus actually more secure for Israel.

+1

Also, add up the dollars we send to the various Arab states, and you'll find we send them more in total than we send to Israel. Stopping ALL these programs will mean a net improvement for Israel, and free them from US political involvement in what should be their own internal decisions.

[truthbetold]

It Is Immoral To Sell Our Kids As Debt Slaves To Give The Money Away To Anyone.
We Borrowing 3 Billion A Day, Each Child Is Born Deep In Debt And People Want To Borrow More And Give To Israel.

Any Christian who can't see ~ It Is Immoral needs The stupid slapped out of them..

[nexus7]

You tell them that Israel has over 100 ballistic nukes and that Israel can take care of themselves. You also explain that it's congress who will appropriate money anyway. So with AIPAC being the largest lobby in D.C. they will make sure that the sellouts in congress fund Israel until we're broke anyway.

It's time we take care of our own country and our own people for once and stop being the worlds policeman.

If Americans and your friends want to donate money to Israel then let them donate there hard earned money. No one else should be forced or pressured to do that, however.

We need to get away from being moralistic wilsonians and FDR fanboys. It's got us into way too many wars already.




In speaking with my born-again sister, (she really likes Ron Paul) she related to me that the Israel support question is a big thing she encounters when speaking to her friends about RP. She said "they really seem to like him until it gets to the no continued support for Israel, I think that's going to be a problem for him".

I really don't know enough about the issue to offer an answer. I've looked on RPlibrary.com and found a few things. I wish he'd issue a position statement on this topic.

My meetup is working on radio ads targeting Christian stations, so these topics are in the forefront of what we're trying to understand right now.

p.s. please donate to our chip-in if you think our radio ads for Christians is a good idea! Thanks! http://foxvalleywisconsin.chipin.com/ron-paul-radio-ad-campaignoperation-wake-up-wisconsin-christians

[foofighter20x]

he is pulling support from everyone.

Exactly. It's a Zero-Sum game.

We aren't pulling support from Israel alone, but also from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc... Hell, from EVERYONE!

Because we send them all this foreign aid, they use they money they save on weapons and their war operations.

Take that support away from them both, and if they want to keep fighting then they'll have to find a way to do it on their own.



If your friends want to take the tax money they save by this cut in our government spending and send it off to Israel themselves, they are free to do so.

[noztnac]

The argument these people are using is "Give me money or I won't be friends with you."

What have we gotten by sticking our nose in the Israeli- Arab conflict?

Answer: 9/11


This issue may lose a few supporters but it gains twice as many who are sick of us meddling where we shouldn't with money we can't afford to spend.

Free Trade with all- No entangling alliances.

[Sandra]

If God finds Israel viable and acceptable then God will take care of Israel, if not then it's God's will. How perfectly boastful for anyone to conceive that the protection from America = protection fron God. Unless America sees itself as God.

[Dovy]

The support for Israel is like Mom and Apple Pie in the US because of the sheer pressure of the pro-Israel lobby, which is unlike any other interest group. It is only a matter of time that Ron Paul's overall opposition to foreign aid (INCLUDING Israel) will classify him as an ANTI-SEMITE. He must be prepared for this. I know about these things, I am Jewish myself and watch these things closely.

[beobeli]

The definite interview with Ron Paul is here http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071108/NEWS08/311080111. Save this on your computer and burn it on a DVD http://labnol.blogspot.com/2007/02/how-to-burn-youtube-videos-to-dvd.html.

This interview gives you Ron Paul's position on all important issues, including Israel. In a gist, by subsidizing Israel they relinquished their sovereignty to the U.S. They are limited in what they can and cannot do. Therefore, it is better that we let them make their own decisions in their own interest. Besides we are giving more money to their Muslim neighbors that we are to Israel. I think we are at about $5B/year to Israel and probably about $10B/year to Pakistan. $9B disappeared somewhere in Iraq over the last 1-2 years, and nobody knows where that money went (are we plain stupid, or what?).

I cannot paraphrase Dr. Paul's explanation as good as he explains it in the interview. You must get it (http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071108/NEWS08/311080111) . Also this interview describes his position on other difficult issues such as abortion, stem cell research, the war(s), the reason for humble foreign policy, etc. No wander this statesman is such an unifying force. His positions are just so common sense. We just need to get his word out to the masses.

I bought a really sturdy yard sign stand at Home Depot. It was "For Sale by Owner" sign, but now it is carrying the Ron Paul sign. More importantly, this stand allows you to attach to its side an "Info Box” also bought at Home Depot. I put fliers and DVD's in this box with "take one" note on it, so that neighbors who are walking by can inform themselves. I also leave pencil and sign-up sheet if someone want to leave me a contact information to discuss the issues or get some more promotional material (stickers, fliers, slim jims, yard signs, etc.)

Believe me, you cannot explain Ron Paul's positions as well as he can. And he is speaking from the heart. It is "scary", impressive and humbling to have such a knowledgeable representative and presidential candidate out there. No wanted the corrupt establishment wants him to remain invisible. Get busy....