Apparently Democrats are bigots about Mormanism

[sailingaway]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20110608/pl_yblog_theticket/voters-fret-about-mormonism-but-still-favor-romney


Asked if they would be comfortable with a Mormon president, 60 percent of voters said they would be "comfortable" compared to 36 percent who said they'd be "uncomfortable."
By comparison, 83 percent of voters said they'd be comfortable with a Catholic in the White House, 80 percent with a Jewish president and 67 percent with a president who was an evangelical Christian. Just 38 percent of those polled said they'd be okay with a Muslim president, while 37 percent said they'd be comfortable with an atheist in the White House.
Who would have the most problems with a Mormon in the White House? Democrats. According to Quinnipiac, just 49 percent of Dems say they'd be okay with a Mormon president, compared to 68 percent of Republicans and 64 percent of self-described independent voters.

[oyarde]

What would Dems have against Mormons ? I think of the things they support that seem much worse than a religion .....

[Brian4Liberty]

Probably related to the Newsweek Hit Piece...

[dannno]

IMO, most of the dems substituted the following in the question:

Would you be comfortable with a Mormon as President

substituted with

Would you be comfortable with Mitt Romney as President

[hillbilly123069]

Well its easy enough to catch them in a lie. Their mouth is open.

[oyarde]

IMO, most of the dems substituted the following in the question:

Would you be comfortable with a Mormon as President

substituted with

Would you be comfortable with Mitt Romney as President

Probably

[nate895]

To be fair, almost all Mormons are Republicans, so I can understand why they would be opposed to having them in office in general.

What I find depressing are the Evangelical Christian numbers. I guarantee the same 33% that would be comfortable with an Evangelical Christian in office would cry that the Evangelicals were unconstitutionally trying to impose a religious test for office if they expressed reservations about a candidate's religious beliefs.

[talkingpointes]

I could go on a long rant about my personal thoughts of Mormonism but, I don't want to be called a collectivist. It's not hard to see why people would be discriminate against them. They didn't allow blacks in their membership till the 1970's. That alone should give you an idea of how things have been ran in Salt Lake City for awhile now. Mormons view on heaven I think is also a blockade for acceptance in the majority, seriously shed all the polygamy. The only Mormons I can even find mildly palatable is Jeff Flake. Oh yeah, who is that blathering idiot on Fox that constantly screams the sky is falling over chickens crossing the road. (Glenn Beck) I can imagine people associate him with the group as a whole.

I have had more than a few bad experiences with Mormons and it's my personal belief there is a stink of elitism in their circle. People don't like it when religions bar people from temples for tithing or membership requirements. I know there is a Mormons for Ron Paul groups, but is there any major Mormon figures that wave the flag of libertarianism like the Pauls?

[akforme]

I'm an atheist but I do believe the religious bigotry is stronger among other atheist than anyone. It seems a lot of them downright hate people who belong to a religion.

[dannno]

I could go on a long rant about my personal thoughts of Mormonism but, I don't want to be called a collectivist. It's not hard to see why people would be discriminate against them. They didn't allow blacks in their membership till the 1970's. That alone should give you an idea of how things have been ran in Salt Lake City for awhile now. Mormons view on heaven I think is also a blockade for acceptance in the majority, seriously shed all the polygamy. The only Mormons I can even find mildly palatable is Jeff Flake. Oh yeah, who is that blathering idiot on Fox that constantly screams the sky is falling over chickens crossing the road. (Glenn Beck) I can imagine people associate him with the group as a whole.

I have had more than a few bad experiences with Mormons and it's my personal belief there is a stink of elitism in their circle. People don't like it when religions bar people from temples for tithing or membership requirements. I know there is a Mormons for Ron Paul groups, but is there any major Mormon figures that wave the flag of libertarianism like the Pauls?

There are some very positive aspects to Mormonism as well. There are a few threads out there about this, but many leaders of the church from its inception have proclaimed the Constitution to be divinely inspired.

My parents are Mormon and one of the people in their church teaches Constitution classes and is a Ron Paul supporter.

[dannno]

I'm an atheist but I do believe the religious bigotry is stronger among other atheist than anyone. It seems a lot of them downright hate people who belong to a religion.

I thought it was interesting that more people would be comfortable with a Muslim (and much more comfortable with a Mormon for that matter) as President than an atheist. Seems like atheists are getting a pretty raw deal too.

[Brian4Liberty]

I have had more than a few bad experiences with Mormons and it's my personal belief there is a stink of elitism in their circle.

While you have some good points, those are human traits, not exclusively about Mormons. I have seen Mormon favoritism for their own. I have also witnessed the same from Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, gays, women, and men. No group is without this tendency.

[Vessol]

I thought it was interesting that more people would be comfortable with a Muslim (and much more comfortable with a Mormon for that matter) as President than an atheist. Seems like atheists are getting a pretty raw deal too.

I don't have the link here, but a similar poll was conducted over who you would allow your children to marry.

Atheists were again, at the bottom of the list. Even Muslims were more approved of, by a wide margin, over atheists.

Edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMpWRZ7_A34

[talkingpointes]

There are some very positive aspects to Mormonism as well. There are a few threads out there about this, but many leaders of the church from its inception have proclaimed the Constitution to be divinely inspired.

My parents are Mormon and one of the people in their church teaches Constitution classes and is a Ron Paul supporter.

I don't deny there isn't any good leadership or positive qualities about Mormonism but in my experience - the church is doling out welfare. meanwhile the congregation claims "it's the most efficient system of welfare thus devised". That can put people at odds with them in the political realm. I have heard anti-big government sentiment but only in reference to the "humble" beginnings of the church and the perceived witch hunt against them. Lastly living in California how did you feel about prop 8? And all over having a super polygamist family in the after life. That is a reprehensible approach for the physical world and I think they should mettle within their own affairs. For the record I grew up Methodist. So I might lack the experience to properly understand their culture. Methodist- Pre-marital sex =ok,(even if your gay) first time I had alcohol was with my church, in general I found the atmosphere to be extremely welcoming and positive. There is no forced tithing or extreme expectations for behavior, in addition to the idea of just doing good will on earth and not look to control others.

[erowe1]

Aren't all non-Mormons bigoted about Mormonism? If they weren't, they'd convert to it, right?

[specsaregood]

Its obviously because they afraid that shamormonria law is going to be imposed upon the american people

[Vessol]

Aren't all non-Mormons bigoted about Mormonism? If they weren't, they'd convert to it, right?

What do you define as bigotry?

[sailingaway]

Aren't all non-Mormons bigoted about Mormonism? If they weren't, they'd convert to it, right?

No, there is a difference between not sharing a belief and actively distrusting or disliking it. Otherwise all the other religions would have similar problems, but they don't all.

[Sola_Fide]

Its obviously because they afraid that shamormonria law is going to be imposed upon the american people

I giggled:)

But in all seriousness, for all of my disagreements with the Mormon system, they still employ a measure of basic understanding that the church does not equal the state.

In Islam, there is no understanding that the church is seperate from the state. Islam is an all-encompassing way of life which merges state and mosque. It is different than western religions in this sense, and ExPatPaki has agreed with me on this point.

[erowe1]

What do you define as bigotry?

I inferred from the OP that, for the purposes of this thread, the definition of bigotry is being uncomfortable with someone of some belief system being president.

[specsaregood]

I giggled:)
But in all seriousness, for all of my disagreements with the Mormon system, they still employ a measure of basic understanding that the church does not equal the state.
In Islam, there is no understanding that the church is seperate from the state. Islam is an all-encompassing way of life which merges state and mosque. It is different than western religions in this sense, and ExPatPaki has agreed with me on this point.

Well IIRC mormons also believe that the constitution of the US was divinely inspired. Could that not be interpretted as a way of saying that the state is not all together seperate from the church?

[talkingpointes]

I giggled:)

But in all seriousness, for all of my disagreements with the Mormon system, they still employ a measure of basic understanding that the church does not equal the state.

In Islam, there is no understanding that the church is seperate from the state. Islam is an all-encompassing way of life which merges state and mosque. It is different than western religions in this sense, and ExPatPaki has agreed with me on this point.

How do you figure that. Do you realize they have an entire system built like a political body, similar to Catholics. Salt Lake City is the Vatican of the US, as much as it pains me to say it. Surely if Mormons had more clout, hell yes I think they would impose their beliefs. Or at least structure the system to quell anxiety and their fantastic beliefs for the after life. I.E Blocking gays from marrying.

[sailingaway]

Well IIRC mormons also believe that the constitution of the US was divinely inspired. Could that not be interpretted as a way of saying that the state is not all together seperate from the church?

All sorts of people believe that, though.

[dannno]

Lastly living in California how did you feel about prop 8?

My Mormon parents actively campaigned for it, I actively campaigned against it. They think there is a violent 'homosexual agenda' that will ultimately force the church to marry gay people and they will be forced to accept their lifestyle beyond them being allowed to exist and actually having to think it is ok. I'm ashamed. Fortunately it is now apparent that they have a gay granddaughter, hopefully it will be a good opportunity for them to learn the reality of the situation.

Edit: BTW, last week and last weekend was "Pride Week" in Salt Lake City. It's pretty big. There were a lot of celebrations and parades.




And all over having a super polygamist family in the after life.

I'm not aware that is part of the religion at all and I was blessed with the highest priesthood in the church.

I have been told that polygamy was a temporary set of circumstances that the early pioneers adopted with the blessing of God, due to the fact that many men had gone off to fight in the Mexican/American War and many women were left behind alone with nobody to take care of them and the church was trying to grow it's numbers. This way the few men that were left could have multiple children each year instead of just one or less.

[talkingpointes]

My Mormon parents actively campaigned for it, I actively campaigned against it. They think there is a violent 'homosexual agenda' that will ultimately force the church to marry gay people and they will be forced to accept their lifestyle beyond them being allowed to exist and actually having to think it is ok. I'm ashamed. Fortunately it is now apparent that they have a gay granddaughter, hopefully it will be a good opportunity for them to learn the reality of the situation.
During prop 8 the most commonly spewed excuse from Mormons against gay marriage. "We don't want to subsidize homosexual behavior" Truth - We hate *****s and don't have the balls to be honest. I hope they can learn from the mentioned experience as well.



I'm not aware that is part of the religion at all and I was blessed with the highest priesthood in the church.

I have been told that polygamy was a temporary set of circumstances that the early pioneers adopted with the blessing of God, due to the fact that many men had gone off to fight in the Mexican/American War and many women were left behind alone with nobody to take care of them and the church was trying to grow it's numbers. This way the few men that were left could have multiple children each year instead of just one or less.

"Have been told", seriously I think you're one of the most enlightening posters on this board and sometimes even the most entertaining, but I never thought you would sink to anecdotes. The process of "sealings" are kept through divorce I.E. Your first wife is thought to still be with you in heaven. AKA Proxy Sealing.

[talkingpointes]

Edit: BTW, last week and last weekend was "Pride Week" in Salt Lake City. It's pretty big. There were a lot of celebrations and parades.
Most clan rallys are in the south which is populated by those of "differing opinion". That doesn't mean anything.

[dannno]

Most clan rallys are in the south which is populated by those of "differing opinion". That doesn't mean anything.

I also got ahold of one of the high school newspapers in Salt Lake City recently and they had two very good articles on homosexuality - I was completely shocked at how, um, "progressive" (*vomit*) their ideas are on the subject (sorry I couldn't think of another word).

Salt Lake City is an urban town, it's actually not bad. A lot of my family are not Mormon and like living there. You'd probably like living there over any of the surrounding states, and any state east of there until you get to Florida (except maybe Austin, TX)

Edit: I just noticed you're in Phoenix, AZ.. do you live in Tempe or in the actual city?

[talkingpointes]

I also got ahold of one of the high school newspapers in Salt Lake City recently and they had two very good articles on homosexuality - I was completely shocked at how, um, "progressive" (*vomit*) their ideas are on the subject (sorry I couldn't think of another word).

Salt Lake City is an urban town, it's actually not bad. A lot of my family are not Mormon and like living there. You'd probably like living there over any of the surrounding states, and any state east of there until you get to Florida (except maybe Austin, TX)

Edit: I just noticed you're in Phoenix, AZ.. do you live in Tempe or in the actual city?

I have been to Salt Lake City, "Polygamy Porter" (Becuase you can't have just one. No seriously, it's only 2.5% Alc by Vol) and First Amendment Ale FTW. I thought the city had the most beautiful horizon being backed up against the mountains. But the culture is stiff reminds me of Mesa/Gilbert,Az (southeast Phoenix). Yeah I live in the West Valley of Phoenix, born and raised. Minus two years in Seattle,Wa. I live in the grand suburb of Surprise. Hope I haven't been an asshat by the way. I prefer Phoenix for cost of living, weather and culture, it's like the biggest transient city in my eyes, similar to Las Vegas. But I absolutely fucking hate sheriff Joe.

[dannno]

I have been to Salt Lake City, "Polygamy Porter" (Becuase you can't have just one. No seriously, it's only 2.5% Alc by Vol) and First Amendment Ale FTW. I thought the city had the most beautiful horizon being backed up against the mountains. But the culture is stiff reminds me of Mesa/Gilbert,Az (southeast Phoenix). Yeah I live in the West Valley of Phoenix, born and raised. minus two years in Seattle,Wa. I live in the grand suburb of Surprise. Hope I haven't been an asshat by the way.

Lol, I had some polygamy porter, had no idea the alcohol content was so low.. it was pretty tasty though.

I've met some pretty laid back people there lately, which was surprising because I used to visit there every year in the 90s and had the same impression as you but probably worse.. totally boring and didn't see any modern culture. I've been shocked as I've been there twice in the last year and it seems 100% changed.

[AZKing]

Just 38 percent of those polled said they'd be okay with a Muslim president, while 37 percent said they'd be comfortable with an atheist in the White House.

Ouch, that hurts more than the Mormon bit I reckon. What with all the bigotry towards Muslims, non-believers are still more hated.

[kah13176]

There are some very positive aspects to Mormonism as well. There are a few threads out there about this, but many leaders of the church from its inception have proclaimed the Constitution to be divinely inspired.

My parents are Mormon and one of the people in their church teaches Constitution classes and is a Ron Paul supporter.

Murray Rothbard was impressed with their highly efficient welfare system.

[talkingpointes]

Out come so far from thread... Group think dominates contemporary politics and polls seem to indicate the same.

Article this is the Udall family- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udall
For the record a Mormon will vote for a Mormon indifferent to personal party leanings.

[specsaregood]

Fortunately it is now apparent that they have a gay granddaughter, hopefully it will be a good opportunity for them to learn the reality of the situation.

"Fortunately" seems like a strange way of putting that.

[dannno]

"Fortunately" seems like a strange way of putting that.

Well they have to learn some how, and that is a lifestyle she has chosen. It's better than if she were in a situation where society didn't accept gay people, she had to hide it, and my parents didn't learn anything. I don't think being gay in and of itself is bad, it's more about how the lifestyle is treated by society.

[specsaregood]

Well they have to learn some how, and that is a lifestyle she has chosen.

So you think being gay is a choice?

[dannno]

So you think being gay is a choice?

Being gay isn't always a choice, choosing to live the lifestyle despite what society thinks about you is a choice.

[dannno]

Being gay isn't always a choice, choosing to live the lifestyle despite what society thinks about you is a choice.

More specifically, if you are attracted to both sexes then you are attracted to both sexes. Your relationships may shape your 'choice' to ultimately go in one direction or the other, or continue on both tracks.

Then there are people who are only attracted to their own sex. They don't have a choice of being straight or gay, but they can choose to live the lifestyle and face the consequences, or hide their feelings and face those consequences.

Then there are people who are attracted to the opposite sex and have no choice, like me, and that's how I know many gay people don't have a choice either.

[jmdrake]

To be fair, almost all Mormons are Republicans, so I can understand why they would be opposed to having them in office in general.

What I find depressing are the Evangelical Christian numbers. I guarantee the same 33% that would be comfortable with an Evangelical Christian in office would cry that the Evangelicals were unconstitutionally trying to impose a religious test for office if they expressed reservations about a candidate's religious beliefs.

I think you meant to say "The same 33% that would be uncomfortable with an Evangelical Christian in office...." That said, I think a lot of people are confused about the word "evangelical". They here it an thing Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart or Oral Roberts. I used to be uncomfortable with evangelicals in politics, until I realized one day that by most people's definition I probably am one. :eek: People should realize that ones personal religious, or non-religious, beliefs aren't as important as whether they realize they have no right to force them on others.

[jmdrake]

So you think being gay is a choice?

Some gay people believe it's a choice.

http://www.*****bychoice.com/

[specsaregood]

Some gay people believe it's a choice.
http://www.*****bychoice.com/

yeah, I don't know as I'm not gay so I can't say either way. Being straight certainly didn't feel like a choice to me.

[low preference guy]

yeah, I don't know as I'm not gay so I can't say either way. Being straight certainly didn't feel like a choice to me.

I think I'm stealing your lines, but I have to ask you this:

Do you think if you choose and try really hard to like guys you'll succeed?

[jmdrake]

I don't have the link here, but a similar poll was conducted over who you would allow your children to marry.

Atheists were again, at the bottom of the list. Even Muslims were more approved of, by a wide margin, over atheists.


Why is that at all surprising? People are usually more accepting of people they have more in common with. A Christian might not like a Muslim but think "Hey, at least we both believe in God". I was listening to Michael Savage last night and he was having a most pleasant conversation with a Muslim who was telling him about his (the Muslim's) Jewish ex-girlfriend. A Jew and a Muslim dating is less surprising than Savage and a Muslim having a pleasant conversation.

Anyway, I'm getting off track. My experience with atheists here is that many of them would prefer atheists leaders. It's at least once a month where I see some post where someone says "Believing in God is totally incompatible with liberty!" or "Anyone who believes in God is a complete nutcase". Of course the obvious return question is "So why support Ron Paul" where I get the predictable response of "Well that's the only thing I don't like about him". They don't see the irony of supporting someone who by their own admission is "totally incompatible with liberty" or a "total nutcase". Oh well.

[low preference guy]

My experience with atheists here is that many of them would prefer atheists leaders. It's at least once a month where I see some post where someone says "Believing in God is totally incompatible with liberty!" or "Anyone who believes in God is a complete nutcase". Of course the obvious return question is "So why support Ron Paul" where I get the predictable response of "Well that's the only thing I don't like about him". They don't see the irony of supporting someone who by their own admission is "totally incompatible with liberty" or a "total nutcase". Oh well.

I am not religious and I want RP to be President. His Christianity doesn't bother me at all. Zero.

[specsaregood]

I am not religious and I want RP to be President. His Christianity doesn't bother me at all. Zero.

ditto.

[svobody]

Mormons believe some very, very strange things. Their church has an ugly history (see: their founder marrying extremely young GIRLS, multiple wives, history of blacks in the church). Their beliefs are not backed up by any historical record (even church apologists have admitted the 'Jesus visiting the Native Americans' narrative is completely unsupported by archaeological findings). Their conception of the Trinity, and Godhead in general is completely different from all other Protestant churches, as well as Catholic and Orthodox. In fact, many religious scholars will tell you that Mormonism is a cult, and despite their claims is most certainly separate from what most understand to be Christianity. Many people are wary of the Mormons, and I think it is unfair to call them bigoted. There are many disconcerting things about this religion.

[jmdrake]

I am not religious and I want RP to be President. His Christianity doesn't bother me at all. Zero.


ditto.


Mormons believe some very, very strange things. Their church has an ugly history (see: their founder marrying extremely young GIRLS, multiple wives, history of blacks in the church). Their beliefs are not backed up by any historical record (even church apologists have admitted the 'Jesus visiting the Native Americans' narrative is completely unsupported by archaeological findings). Their conception of the Trinity, and Godhead in general is completely different from all other Protestant churches, as well as Catholic and Orthodox. In fact, many religious scholars will tell you that Mormonism is a cult, and despite their claims is most certainly separate from what most understand to be Christianity. Many people are wary of the Mormons, and I think it is unfair to call them bigoted. There are many disconcerting things about this religion.

Even with all that, if Ron Paul was Mormon and everything else was the same about him (or atheist) I'd still take him over all of the other main presidential candidates. It's Romney's policies I can't stand.

[TheDrakeMan]

Apparently Democrats are bigots about Mormanism

Is that like..

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/293/a/f/MOTU__Mer_man_by_Artsammich.jpg
Worship of this guy? :P

[svobody]

Even with all that, if Ron Paul was Mormon and everything else was the same about him (or atheist) I'd still take him over all of the other main presidential candidates. It's Romney's policies I can't stand.
I think my, and most other people's biggest issue with voting for a Mormon would be this: If they believe in such an absurd (to me) religion, can I really trust their judgment? I mean, even an Atheist can say that while Christianity can appear to be ridiculous, it does have a very long history, historical backing, etc. But for me, looking at Mormonism, I see a very bizarre, at times dangerous "religion" that is in no way mainstream. I would prefer to vote for somebody savvy enough to see through what I view as obvious untruths. For these reasons, I would never vote for a Mormon. Maybe that makes me a bigot, but I don't think so.

And seriously, no offense to anybody on this board that is Mormon - I've been friends with Mormons my whole life, and they've always been very nice to me, so it's nothing personal.

[low preference guy]

I think my, and most other people's biggest issue with voting for a Mormon would be this

I feel the same way about the beliefs of Christians and Jews, but it doesn't matter for a politician. The thing that is important about a politician is whether or not he wants to repeal laws and reduce the size of government.

[The Dark Knight]

I think my, and most other people's biggest issue with voting for a Mormon would be this: If they believe in such an absurd (to me) religion, can I really trust their judgment? I mean, even an Atheist can say that while Christianity can appear to be ridiculous, it does have a very long history, historical backing, etc. But for me, looking at Mormonism, I see a very bizarre, at times dangerous "religion" that is in no way mainstream. I would prefer to vote for somebody savvy enough to see through what I view as obvious untruths. For these reasons, I would never vote for a Mormon. Maybe that makes me a bigot, but I don't think so.

And seriously, no offense to anybody on this board that is Mormon - I've been friends with Mormons my whole life, and they've always been very nice to me, so it's nothing personal.

I am Mormon, you Lie! Mormonism has taught me to support the Constitution, and live within my means, Serve others, love your neighbor ect.... Its a peaceful religion with a very strong Libertarian streak in it.

[dannno]

You really have to be careful when talking about 'weird' Mormon things, because a lot of people like to exaggerate.


Mormons believe some very, very strange things. Their church has an ugly history (see: their founder marrying extremely young GIRLS, multiple wives, history of blacks in the church).

Men are naturally attracted to young girls and have been marrying them for as long as we have existed. It was more accepted back then than it is now because of our educational system which is mandatory until age 18, which is long past when many women used to begin having children. This is the primary reason why there are a lot more children out of wedlock and pre-marital sex today.

Blacks have ALWAYS been allowed in the Mormon church. During the time Joseph Smith was a prophet, they were allowed to receive the priesthood. At some point soon after they were not, and then they were again back in the 70s.. but they've always been allowed in the church.






Their beliefs are not backed up by any historical record (even church apologists have admitted the 'Jesus visiting the Native Americans' narrative is completely unsupported by archaeological findings).


That isn't true either. I remember watching a video that was about 45 minutes that detailed archaeological findings that were consistent with LDS church doctrine. Baptismal fonts, temples, etc. I'm not saying that's what they were, but it is certainly possible.




Their conception of the Trinity, and Godhead in general is completely different from all other Protestant churches, as well as Catholic and Orthodox. In fact, many religious scholars will tell you that Mormonism is a cult, and despite their claims is most certainly separate from what most understand to be Christianity. Many people are wary of the Mormons, and I think it is unfair to call them bigoted. There are many disconcerting things about this religion.

It's ridiculous to say that because they have a different idea of the trinity, some how because of that they are a cult. I've had discussions with born-agains for hours on end where they tried to convince me that the LDS church was a Satanic cult. Born-agains seemed way more like a cult to me.

As far as their temple ceremonies, I've heard that some people who converted from Judaism to Mormonism say that the temple ceremonies are more similar to those that were performed thousands of years ago by the Jewish religion.

[svobody]

You really have to be careful when talking about 'weird' Mormon things, because a lot of people like to exaggerate.



Men are naturally attracted to young girls and have been marrying them for as long as we have existed. It was more accepted back then than it is now because of our educational system which is mandatory until age 18, which is long past when many women used to begin having children. This is the primary reason why there are a lot more children out of wedlock and pre-marital sex today.

Blacks have ALWAYS been allowed in the Mormon church. During the time Joseph Smith was a prophet, they were allowed to receive the priesthood. At some point soon after they were not, and then they were again back in the 70s.. but they've always been allowed in the church.







That isn't true either. I remember watching a video that was about 45 minutes that detailed archaeological findings that were consistent with LDS church doctrine. Baptismal fonts, temples, etc. I'm not saying that's what they were, but it is certainly possible.




It's ridiculous to say that because they have a different idea of the trinity, some how because of that they are a cult. I've had discussions with born-agains for hours on end where they tried to convince me that the LDS church was a Satanic cult. Born-agains seemed way more like a cult to me.

As far as their temple ceremonies, I've heard that some people who converted from Judaism to Mormonism say that the temple ceremonies are more similar to those that were performed thousands of years ago by the Jewish religion.

1. Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl. This was not culturally normal when it happened, and it still isn't. This is well documented. The early church practiced, and encouraged polygamy. I find this morally reprehensible, and you will never convince me it was normal, acceptable, needed, or just. Not buying it.

2. On blacks in the church: "Negroes IN THIS LIFE are denied the priesthood; UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added. (See also LDS Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 1:2). Yes, this sounds very accepting and tolerant.

3. It is consensus among mainstream archaeologists that the historical aspects of the Book of Mormon can in many cases being proven false, or contradictory. There is an entire Wiki page on this, with sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon#LDS_efforts_to_ establish_Book_of_Mormon_archaeology . The Book of Mormon is not historically sound, and there is a reason it is not treated in historical circles with the same respect as the Bible.

4. The definition of the Trinity is one of the most important things in Christianity. The Mormon conception of the Godhead is COMPLETELY different from that of Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Evangelical Christianity, etc. There is a reason most Christian churches do not view Mormons as Christians, and that is due to major, major, major theological differences. The only true similarity between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity is that they both believe in a historical figure named Jesus, however the Mormon Jesus is not the same Jesus. The Mormon Jesus visited North America.

I didn't post in this thread to debate the validity of Mormonism - but to deny that these are valid concerns about the religion, is I think at best, intellectually dishonest.

[dannno]

Again, you have to be REALLY careful when discussing Mormon history, there are A LOT of exaggerations and mis-truths.


1. Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl. This was not culturally normal when it happened, and it still isn't. This is well documented. The early church practiced, and encouraged polygamy. I find this morally reprehensible, and you will never convince me it was normal, acceptable, needed, or just. Not buying it.

First of all, he claimed he never (ever) had sex with the girl who was 14 at the time of their marriage, even when she became older. There is no evidence that they ever had any sort of sexual relations.

Secondly, if there were 80 women in your town between age 18-25 and there were 20 men in the town between the age of 18-30, and you were trying to grow your new found religion, polygamy doesn't sound like a bad idea. For one thing, it keeps the women who can't find a spouse from:

A) Having to marry much older men

B) Attempting to seduce married men behind their wife's backs

C) General danger of living alone and having nobody to look after you on the frontier

These sound completely reasonable to me, and you seem to be unreasonable in your monogamous absolutism. I don't think it is healthy for polygamy to be rampant in general society, but in these circumstances it seems pretty reasonable to me.




2. On blacks in the church: "Negroes IN THIS LIFE are denied the priesthood; UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added. (See also LDS Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 1:2). Yes, this sounds very accepting and tolerant.

Obviously I think that is ridiculous, but the fact is they were still allowed to be apart of the religion, be baptised, married and saved. You are quoting ONE person and applying it to a belief system of millions of people.




3. It is consensus among mainstream archaeologists that the historical aspects of the Book of Mormon can in many cases being proven false, or contradictory. There is an entire Wiki page on this, with sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon#LDS_efforts_to_ establish_Book_of_Mormon_archaeology . The Book of Mormon is not historically sound, and there is a reason it is not treated in historical circles with the same respect as the Bible.

I have no idea if the Book of Mormon is real, but I know what I saw in the video, which was not art but actual video of those temples, and I know what I've seen in Mormon temples. I also know that no matter what evidence they can show that people were wrong about something, or disappointed not to find something, I'm not going to base my entire anti-belief system on something that people claim they have not found happened thousands of years ago!! That is a ridiculous notion.





4. The definition of the Trinity is one of the most important things in Christianity. The Mormon conception of the Godhead is COMPLETELY different from that of Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Evangelical Christianity, etc. There is a reason most Christian churches do not view Mormons as Christians, and that is due to major, major, major theological differences.

They aren't that major, or anything really, in the context of Mormon theology.

Wow, they believe that Jesus is the SON of God and not actually God.. Heretics!! Burn them!! Give me a break.

Second of all, the main thing I hear is the stuff about how in the Bible it says something along the lines of "This IS the only word of God, anything else that claims to be the word of God is not." Ok, great, but that was true at the time the Bible was written.. nowhere in the scripture does it say that there will NEVER be anything added on, and if there was, I'm not a big believer in the Bible having a very good modern day translation anyway. Maybe the people who wrote it changed it around or something, who knows? It wasn't even written until over a hundred years after Christ was gone.




The only true similarity between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity is that they both believe in a historical figure named Jesus, however the Mormon Jesus is not the same Jesus. The Mormon Jesus visited North America.

That is YOUR belief.. but it's not intellectually dishonest since the Mormons can cite BIBLICAL scripture where Jesus says, "Other sheep I have which are not of this fold, and them I also must visit.."

So the Mormons say he visited SOUTH America (not North America), and other Christians say a bunch of crap that doesn't make any logical sense to me to refute this claim.

When somebody says that Mormons don't believe in the "same" Jesus, but some how the other Christian religions do believe in the same one, I have not once heard a good reason for this (but I have heard a lot of poor ass excuses for reasons that don't make very much sense).




I didn't post in this thread to debate the validity of Mormonism - but to deny that these are valid concerns about the religion, is I think at best, intellectually dishonest.

Not so sure about that.

[Andrew-Austin]

Asked if they would be comfortable with a Mormon president, 60 percent of voters said they would be "comfortable" compared to 36 percent who said they'd be "uncomfortable."
By comparison, 83 percent of voters said they'd be comfortable with a Catholic in the White House, 80 percent with a Jewish president and 67 percent with a president who was an evangelical Christian. Just 38 percent of those polled said they'd be okay with a Muslim president, while 37 percent said they'd be comfortable with an atheist in the White House.
Who would have the most problems with a Mormon in the White House? Democrats. According to Quinnipiac, just 49 percent of Dems say they'd be okay with a Mormon president, compared to 68 percent of Republicans and 64 percent of self-described independent voters.

What about this is "bigotry" ?

I would "not be okay" with having a Mormon President. I don't like Presidents in general, or the Presidency. Maybe if there were a Mormon like Ron Paul, but that wouldn't happen.

Why don't we have a poll asking "would you be okay with having a scientologist as President?" Better to pick someone who has the least chance of having a completely delusional world-view. Maybe I'm a little bit more biased against the religions/cults that seem a little too far-gone even by today's standards.

[dannno]

I would "not be okay" with having a Mormon President.

So you're saying if Ron Paul was Mormon, everything else being equal, you wouldn't vote for him?

[doodle]

To be fair, no one party has monopoly on religious (or racial or other forms of) bigotry.

[doodle]

What about this is "bigotry" ?

I would "not be okay" with having a Mormon President.

Why?

[Vessol]

Mormons believe some very, very strange things.

Oh please.

Try explaining COMMUNION to someone who has no idea what it is.

Every religion has really strange practices IMO.

[BlackTerrel]

I could go on a long rant about my personal thoughts of Mormonism but, I don't want to be called a collectivist. It's not hard to see why people would be discriminate against them. They didn't allow blacks in their membership till the 1970's. That alone should give you an idea of how things have been ran in Salt Lake City for awhile now. Mormons view on heaven I think is also a blockade for acceptance in the majority, seriously shed all the polygamy. The only Mormons I can even find mildly palatable is Jeff Flake. Oh yeah, who is that blathering idiot on Fox that constantly screams the sky is falling over chickens crossing the road. (Glenn Beck) I can imagine people associate him with the group as a whole.

Honestly I could go on a long rant about how your post is complete shit and how if it was said about Jews or Muslims no one would tolerate it. (on this forum especially the latter).


I have had more than a few bad experiences with Mormons and it's my personal belief there is a stink of elitism in their circle. People don't like it when religions bar people from temples for tithing or membership requirements. I know there is a Mormons for Ron Paul groups, but is there any major Mormon figures that wave the flag of libertarianism like the Pauls?

There are however tons of prominent Baptist, Lutheran, and Presbyterian libertarians :rolleyes:

[BlackTerrel]

I thought it was interesting that more people would be comfortable with a Muslim (and much more comfortable with a Mormon for that matter) as President than an atheist. Seems like atheists are getting a pretty raw deal too.

And yet we have a large number of people on this forum promoting not just atheism but MILITANT atheism on these forums and even trying to project that onto Ron Paul.

Why on earth would someone who wants Ron Paul to win do that?

[dannno]

And yet we have a large number of people on this forum promoting not just atheism but MILITANT atheism on these forums and even trying to project that onto Ron Paul.

Why on earth would someone who wants Ron Paul to win do that?

Because atheism is a religion too?

[BlackTerrel]

I am Mormon, you Lie! Mormonism has taught me to support the Constitution, and live within my means, Serve others, love your neighbor ect.... Its a peaceful religion with a very strong Libertarian streak in it.

+1

[BlackTerrel]

Mormons believe some very, very strange things. Their church has an ugly history (see: their founder marrying extremely young GIRLS, multiple wives, history of blacks in the church). Their beliefs are not backed up by any historical record (even church apologists have admitted the 'Jesus visiting the Native Americans' narrative is completely unsupported by archaeological findings). Their conception of the Trinity, and Godhead in general is completely different from all other Protestant churches, as well as Catholic and Orthodox. In fact, many religious scholars will tell you that Mormonism is a cult, and despite their claims is most certainly separate from what most understand to be Christianity. Many people are wary of the Mormons, and I think it is unfair to call them bigoted. There are many disconcerting things about this religion.

I'd be interested in the percentage of Mormons in jail or how many of them have murdered, raped, robbed a bank or beat their wives verse how many of them work hard, have two parent homes, and raise their kids the right way?

I'm not Mormon but I've known a couple in my lifetime and I feel I have a lot to emulate from them rather than judge them for "strange beliefs". I'm honestly saddened that on a forum of supposed free thinkers we have so many people who are judging an entire religion based on some crap they're regurgitating.

This isn't even "judging the whole on the actions of a few" because there isn't even the bad few to judge. What bad things have Mormons ever done that we're going to judge all 10 million of them in the US?

[sailingaway]

I I'm honestly saddened that on a forum of supposed free thinkers we have so many people who are judging an entire religion based on some crap they're regurgitating.

This isn't even "judging the whole on the actions of a few" because there isn't even the bad few to judge. What bad things have Mormons ever done that we're going to judge all 10 million of them in the US?

I think most people dropped out of this thread a long time ago. I agree that demonizing a religion seems antithetical to our principles.