MN - Cops, city "official" fine and threaten to arrest man for helping tornado clean up.

[Anti Federalist]

Kicked out for doing good: Hastings man who volunteered on scene of north Minneapolis tornado was thrown out

http://www.hastingsstargazette.com/event/article/id/25007/group/News/

For a few years, Mike Haege’s sister lived in north Minneapolis. He knows the neighborhood at least a little bit, and when a tornado tore through the area on Sunday, May 22, he took notice.

On the news he saw trees strewn about lawns and streets. Then inspiration struck. He wanted to help. His schedule for Monday, May 23, was wide open. And, since he operates Custom Cut, a tree trimming business here, he figured his services could be put to good use.

“I thought it would be the perfect chance to help,” he said. “I knew there would be people needing help.”

He was right. By 10:30 a.m. Monday, he was signing paperwork with the Urban League to be a volunteer. He signed a waiver, hopped back into his truck and headed off to help out. The Urban Homeworks sent along a couple volunteers with him, too.

Tree trimmers who work in Minneapolis need to be licensed with the city. It’s a regulation in place throughout many cities, and something Haege knows all about. He’s licensed in Hastings and several area cities. Since he doesn’t work in Minneapolis, he isn’t licensed there.

All that was moot, of course. He was just going to volunteer and was not charging residents for his services.

He had brought a bucket truck to get high if needed, and he brought a wood chipper to dispose of fallen trees. He and the volunteers got to work on homes where the resident didn’t have insurance.

“We were removing stuff so people could get out of their driveways and out of their doors,” he said. “The place was a pretty big disaster.”

What happened next shocked Haege.

A city inspector arrived at the scene. She told Haege he had to leave. Immediately.

“You have to leave right now,” the inspector told Haege. “You’re not licensed to be here.”

“I said, ‘I’m just a volunteer,’ and she didn’t believe me.”

Haege went back to his truck and got his volunteer paperwork. Still, that did little to get the inspector off his back.

“I don’t want to see you up here,” she told him.

“She just didn’t believe me,” he said.

A volunteer from the Urban Homeworks, who had been with Haege since he signed up to volunteer that morning, did his best to convince the inspector that Haege wasn’t charging for his services.

Residents then came out of their doors in his defense, telling the inspector that he had just performed work at their house and hadn’t charged them a dime. Still, the defense fell on deaf ears.

The inspector told him to get out of the city, so Haege left with the volunteer. As they were on their way back to the volunteer area, residents waved down Haege, pleading for help. He pulled over and helped get a tree out of the way for them.

Haege had no idea police officers were behind him in a sort of unofficial escort out of town. He said they stopped traffic for about two hours while they figured out what to do with him. At one point, officers threatened to throw him in jail, he said.

All the while, residents continued defending him, screaming in his defense.

Officers told him to leave. They told him he was going to receive a “hefty fine” in the mail, and that if he stopped on the way out, the fine would be doubled.

Much of this exchange can be heard on a cell phone video that Haege took.

Finally, Haege was cleared to leave. He went to the volunteer hub, checked out and went home. Last he knew, he was going to receive a citation in the mail for trimming trees without a license in Minneapolis, which he heard was a $400 fine.

Haege’s business has an A rating with the Better Business Bureau.


What happened?

Why the city inspector didn’t believe, and why the police didn’t, is something that still confuses Haege.

“I don’t know (why they didn’t believe me),” he said. “Who knows. They were just rude to me in front of the residents. There were people yelling at the cops. I don’t know. They don’t believe someone would just help out.”

Helping out is nothing new to the Haege family.

Haege’s wife Kari has been profiled numerous times in this newspaper for the work she has done to raise money for the Orphan Grain Project in Liberia. She has raised tens of thousands of dollars for a remote village there, including about $12,000 to purchase a grain truck.

The couple is active at Calvary Chapel in Red Wing, running a Bible study group out of their house. They are in the process of adopting a child from Uganda.

“I happened to have a day off, and I happened to get run out of the city for no reason,” he said. “It was really kind of disturbing. Going up there, thinking you’ll be welcomed. The residents welcomed me. They were very grateful, but the Gestapo wasn’t.”

UPDATE

Haege got more bad news in the mail Wednesday afternoon. He received a $275 fine from the City of Minneapolis

[steve005]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

[YumYum]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

lol!!! His moniker says it all. He must be doing something right, he is the most popular poster here.

[AceNZ]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

Or wake them up?

[sparebulb]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

Kill the Messenger: A reliable and proven method to further the status quo.

[Yieu]

I, for one, am glad to know the news AF posts, even if it is bad news. Better to know than not be aware of what is going on.

[BucksforPaul]

+rep to AF

[steve005]

A reliable and proven method to further the status quo

trust me, that's not what I want to do. but instead of just posting every story he can find about cops shooting or beating someone up... I don't know maybe one post a day with all the cop incidents on one post, the more negative threads there are at any given time means there will be less positive(and productive) posts viewable.


Better to know than not be aware of what is going on.

I agree, but don't we see enough already. I know whats going on, when I come to the RON PAUL FORUMS though I don't want to see 5 or ten posts of cops beating people up on them, how is that helping our cause?

[steve005]

Lets get AF his own section to post. I'm sure he could fill it up with this stuff, I just don't really see how it is helping ron paul though?

[Danke]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

exactly! Thank You! AF should have been banned a long time ago with his depressing photos of Walmart gals. It is unamerican.

[Cowlesy]

Kicked out for doing good: Hastings man who volunteered on scene of north Minneapolis tornado was thrown out

http://www.hastingsstargazette.com/event/article/id/25007/group/News/

For a few years, Mike Haege’s sister lived in north Minneapolis. He knows the neighborhood at least a little bit, and when a tornado tore through the area on Sunday, May 22, he took notice.

On the news he saw trees strewn about lawns and streets. Then inspiration struck. He wanted to help. His schedule for Monday, May 23, was wide open. And, since he operates Custom Cut, a tree trimming business here, he figured his services could be put to good use.

“I thought it would be the perfect chance to help,” he said. “I knew there would be people needing help.”

He was right. By 10:30 a.m. Monday, he was signing paperwork with the Urban League to be a volunteer. He signed a waiver, hopped back into his truck and headed off to help out. The Urban Homeworks sent along a couple volunteers with him, too.

Tree trimmers who work in Minneapolis need to be licensed with the city. It’s a regulation in place throughout many cities, and something Haege knows all about. He’s licensed in Hastings and several area cities. Since he doesn’t work in Minneapolis, he isn’t licensed there.

All that was moot, of course. He was just going to volunteer and was not charging residents for his services.

He had brought a bucket truck to get high if needed, and he brought a wood chipper to dispose of fallen trees. He and the volunteers got to work on homes where the resident didn’t have insurance.

“We were removing stuff so people could get out of their driveways and out of their doors,” he said. “The place was a pretty big disaster.”

What happened next shocked Haege.

A city inspector arrived at the scene. She told Haege he had to leave. Immediately.

“You have to leave right now,” the inspector told Haege. “You’re not licensed to be here.”

“I said, ‘I’m just a volunteer,’ and she didn’t believe me.”

Haege went back to his truck and got his volunteer paperwork. Still, that did little to get the inspector off his back.

“I don’t want to see you up here,” she told him.

“She just didn’t believe me,” he said.

A volunteer from the Urban Homeworks, who had been with Haege since he signed up to volunteer that morning, did his best to convince the inspector that Haege wasn’t charging for his services.

Residents then came out of their doors in his defense, telling the inspector that he had just performed work at their house and hadn’t charged them a dime. Still, the defense fell on deaf ears.

The inspector told him to get out of the city, so Haege left with the volunteer. As they were on their way back to the volunteer area, residents waved down Haege, pleading for help. He pulled over and helped get a tree out of the way for them.

Haege had no idea police officers were behind him in a sort of unofficial escort out of town. He said they stopped traffic for about two hours while they figured out what to do with him. At one point, officers threatened to throw him in jail, he said.

All the while, residents continued defending him, screaming in his defense.

Officers told him to leave. They told him he was going to receive a “hefty fine” in the mail, and that if he stopped on the way out, the fine would be doubled.

Much of this exchange can be heard on a cell phone video that Haege took.

Finally, Haege was cleared to leave. He went to the volunteer hub, checked out and went home. Last he knew, he was going to receive a citation in the mail for trimming trees without a license in Minneapolis, which he heard was a $400 fine.

Haege’s business has an A rating with the Better Business Bureau.


What happened?

Why the city inspector didn’t believe, and why the police didn’t, is something that still confuses Haege.

“I don’t know (why they didn’t believe me),” he said. “Who knows. They were just rude to me in front of the residents. There were people yelling at the cops. I don’t know. They don’t believe someone would just help out.”

Helping out is nothing new to the Haege family.

Haege’s wife Kari has been profiled numerous times in this newspaper for the work she has done to raise money for the Orphan Grain Project in Liberia. She has raised tens of thousands of dollars for a remote village there, including about $12,000 to purchase a grain truck.

The couple is active at Calvary Chapel in Red Wing, running a Bible study group out of their house. They are in the process of adopting a child from Uganda.

“I happened to have a day off, and I happened to get run out of the city for no reason,” he said. “It was really kind of disturbing. Going up there, thinking you’ll be welcomed. The residents welcomed me. They were very grateful, but the Gestapo wasn’t.”

UPDATE

Haege got more bad news in the mail Wednesday afternoon. He received a $275 fine from the City of Minneapolis

God Bless America.

[Pericles]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

“It does not take a majority to prevail… but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.”
— Samuel Adams

[Anti Federalist]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

Obvious agenda is obvious.

Happy, complacent people who find everything to be peachy keen and dandy do not change things.

Pissed off people who are aware things are seriously fucked up do.

[steve005]

Obvious agenda is obvious.

what do you mean?


Happy, complacent people who find everything to be peachy keen and dandy do not change things.

true, but I want Ron Paul to win, thats why I come to RON PAUL FORUMS(because I already know its fucked up) so why not spend that time posting this stuff elsewhere to wake people up who don't know how fucked up it is?

Also why not post a thread that has multiple links to these articles and not seperate threads for each article?(so there can be more productive threads on first page)

all I'm saying is we need to fight darkness with light, not more darkness(I'm not saying all is good and to ignore the problem)

[Anti Federalist]

trust me, that's not what I want to do. but instead of just posting every story he can find about cops shooting or beating someone up... I don't know maybe one post a day with all the cop incidents on one post, the more negative threads there are at any given time means there will be less positive(and productive) posts viewable.

I agree, but don't we see enough already. I know whats going on, when I come to the RON PAUL FORUMS though I don't want to see 5 or ten posts of cops beating people up on them, how is that helping our cause?

Hang on just a second...

I cull these stories pretty heavily already.

I posted three stories of "official abuse" today. I found them in about five minutes.

I see a hundred or more each day.

I am already self censoring roughly 95 percent of what I come across.

It's much worse than I'm making it out to be, and I cannot stress how bad it could get in the face of economic collapse or another "terrorist" attack.

And it is all political, everything I post about is a direct ramification of the political process. In fact, it is the most important part of it, it's where "the rubber meets the road", where us Mundanes are shown who really runs things.

Nothing could be more important to the political process or why Ron Paul must be elected at all costs.

[Anti Federalist]

what do you mean?

Of course I'm trying to get people pissed off and riled up and active.

I would have thought that was obvious.


true, but I want Ron Paul to win, thats why I come to RON PAUL FORUMS(because I already know its fucked up) so why not spend that time posting this stuff elsewhere to wake people up who don't know how fucked up it is?

Also why not post a thread that has multiple links to these articles and not seperate threads for each article?(so there can be more productive threads on first page)

all I'm saying is we need to fight darkness with light, not more darkness(I'm not saying all is good and to ignore the problem)

Because there are many that are not aware of the danger we face, even within the Ron Paul "community", not to mention the people that are just starting their journey of discovery.

And, unless I'm mistaken, this is "General Politics". You'll notice that I post nothing negative in "Ron Paul Grassroots Central".

[Danke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCQ0vDAbF7s&feature=player_embedded

[Freedom 4 all]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

If you want, find something a cop did that was objectively positive and above/beyond the regular call of duty. Go ahead, we're waiting...

[Anti Federalist]

Lets get AF his own section to post. I'm sure he could fill it up with this stuff, I just don't really see how it is helping ron paul though?

I don't want my own "section".

I'm nobody special around here, I'm following forum rules and posting what, I hope at least, are informative and infuriating stories of the injustice all around us, and how it continues to get worse.

If it's really upsetting you so much, flag my stuff to a mod.

[Anti Federalist]

If you want, find something a cop did that was objectively positive and above/beyond the regular call of duty. Go ahead, we're waiting...

LoL

There are plenty out there, but I'm not sure that it's newsworthy.

Today, a city cop did his job.

In other news, the car started this morning.

[steve005]

it's not upsetting me(the articles do though). but wouldn't "Individual Rights & Liberties" section better suit your prefered type of post?

[Kylie]

I don't want my own "section".

I'm nobody special around here, I'm following forum rules and posting what, I hope at least, are informative and infuriating stories of the injustice all around us, and how it continues to get worse.

If it's really upsetting you so much, flag my stuff to a mod.



I use the information that AF puts out here every single day. When talking in small talk to a lady at the store, to the guy who just brought me my soda(to my car, cause yeah I'm that lazy sometimes).

This shit gets around. And when you have a straight idea of just what is going down around us, you know you have to wake up as many people as possible. Even if it's blindsiding them with something so heinous that they just can't believe people would do that(sometimes), let alone cops. And yeah, it happens, alot. Everyday. It's a war against us.

But the good ones haven't been brought into the police state yet. That's coming, though, so be prepared.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

exactly! Thank You! AF should have been banned a long time ago with his depressing photos of Walmart gals. It is unamerican.

lol!!!

Danke brings out the :D

[Danke]

lol!!!

Danke brings out the :D

from a single "dude" that is into cats, the shame...

[iGGz]

Wahhhhh

Don't read his posts?

[Nate-ForLiberty]

from a single "dude" that is into cats, the shame...

take what you can get Danke, take what you can get.




..........otherwise you end up single with a cat

[Freedom 4 all]

LoL

There are plenty out there, but I'm not sure that it's newsworthy.

Today, a city cop did his job.

In other news, the car started this morning.

Obviously properly doing a job (ex. cops foil robbery/pull kitten out of tree/eat doughnuts without shooting anyone) shouldn't be newsworthy. But I'm talking something good enough to make up for the bad, like taking a bullet for an ordinary citizen or something. Something that falls outside the bare minimum we should expect from police. There are probably stories like that out there, but they are pretty hard to find, especially when compared to stories of the complete asshole genre.

[BamaAla]

My God; what the hell is wrong with these government leeches? The old lawyer jokes should be changed to bureaucrat jokes...what do you call 200 Minnesota city inspectors at the bottom of the sea?

[AndrewD]

Anti Federalist is a Sensationalist with a capital S. He appeals to emotion on the regular. Oh my god a cop killed a dog the end is near!

[AndrewD]

Not sure if there are any official statistics out there, but I guarantee there are tenfold as many "good cop incidents" as "bad cop incidents". But according to AF the good things cops do are not newsworthy, because they are "just doing their job".

AF - A little appreciation goes a long way bro. The cops that "just do their job" deserve it. As Ron Paul advocates, we should be setting the example and causing others to want to emulate us. While i'm not suggesting we strap it on and all become cops to set the standard, the least you could do is show an equal amount of appreciation towards the good actions, as condemnation towards to the bad. Which, in the end would cause you to be posting a lot more postive stories.

But we won't be seeing that. The Sensationalism will continue, and your mundane sheep followers on this board will continue to eat it up and give you little +1 rep things, so their need to belong is satisfied.

[Anti Federalist]

Not sure if there are any official statistics out there, but I guarantee there are tenfold as many "good cop incidents" as "bad cop incidents". But according to AF the good things cops do are not newsworthy, because they are "just doing their job".

AF - A little appreciation goes a long way bro. The cops that "just do their job" deserve it. As Ron Paul advocates, we should be setting the example and causing others to want to emulate us. While i'm not suggesting we strap it on and all become cops to set the standard, the least you could do is show an equal amount of appreciation towards the good actions, as condemnation towards to the bad. Which, in the end would cause you to be posting a lot more postive stories.

But we won't be seeing that. The Sensationalism will continue, and your mundane sheep followers on this board will continue to eat it up and give you little +1 rep things, so their need to belong is satisfied.

You don't seem to understand.

I oppose police as an institution, a concept, an idea.

They have, as I have noted a gazillion times, become the occupying army of an increasingly brutal regime, a regime that is one "terror" attack away from "relocation camps".

Therefore your point makes no sense to me.

Do you think that the Gestapo was composed of wild eyed demons, gibbering around with baby guts in their teeth?

Of course they weren't.

They were just mild mannered civil servants doing what they thought was their patriotic and civic duty.

And 12 million or so people died because of it.

Oh and by the way, you and I, all of us, are "Mundanes" as well.

Don't think for one sencond that the state thinks otherwise.

[iGGz]

http://news.lavenderliberal.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/crybaby-truth.jpg

Don't cry baby.

[Anti Federalist]

Ron Paul on the Police State


Is America Becoming a Police State?
by REP. RON PAUL



Within two years, every American will need a "conforming ID to deal with any federal agency -- including TSA at the airport. Undoubtedly many Americans and members of Congress don't believe America is becoming a police state, which is reasonable enough. They associate the phrase with highly visible symbols of authoritarianism like military patrols, martial law, and summary executions.

But we ought to be concerned that we have laid the foundation for tyranny by making the public more docile, more accustomed to government bullying, and more accepting of arbitrary authority -- all in the name of security. Our love for liberty above all has been so diminished that we tolerate intrusions into our privacy that would have been abhorred just a few years ago.

We tolerate inconveniences and infringements upon our liberties in a manner that reflects poorly on our great national character of rugged individualism. American history, at least in part, is a history of people who don't like being told what to do. Yet we are increasingly empowering the federal government and its agents to run our lives.

Terror, fear, and crises like 9-11 are used to achieve complacency and obedience, especially when citizens are deluded into believing they are still a free people.

The loss of liberty, we are assured, will be minimal, short-lived, and necessary. Many citizens believe that once the war on terror is over, restrictions on their liberties will be reversed. But this war is undeclared and open-ended, with no precise enemy and no expressly stated final goal. Terrorism will never be eradicated completely; does this mean future presidents will assert extraordinary war powers indefinitely?

Washington DC provides a vivid illustration of what our future might look like. Visitors to Capitol Hill encounter police barricades, metal detectors, paramilitary officers carrying fully automatic rifles, police dogs, ID checks, and vehicle stops. The people are totally disarmed; only the police and criminals have guns.

Surveillance cameras are everywhere, monitoring street activity, subway travel, parks, and federal buildings. There's not much evidence of an open society in Washington, DC, yet most folks do not complain -- anything goes if it's for government-provided safety and security.

After all, proponents argue, the government is doing all this to catch the bad guys. If you don't have anything to hide, they ask, what are you so afraid of?

The answer is that I'm afraid of losing the last vestiges of privacy that a free society should hold dear.

I'm afraid of creating a society where the burden is on citizens to prove their innocence, rather than on government to prove wrongdoing.

Most of all, I'm afraid of living in a society where a subservient populace surrenders its liberties to an all-powerful government.

It may be true that average Americans do not feel intimidated by the encroachment of the police state. Americans remain tolerant of what they see as mere nuisances because they have been deluded into believing total government supervision is necessary and helpful, and because they still enjoy a high level of material comfort.

That tolerance may wane, however, as our standard of living falls due to spiraling debt, endless deficit spending at home and abroad, a declining fiat dollar, inflation, higher interest rates, and failing entitlement programs. At that point attitudes toward omnipotent government may change, but the trend toward authoritarianism will be difficult to reverse.

Those who believe a police state can't happen here are poor students of history.

Every government, democratic or not, is capable of tyranny.

We must understand this if we hope to remain a free people.

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2004/tst122004.htm


It Can't Happen Here
By Rep. Ron Paul
12-21-2004

[Pericles]

Just a guess on my part, but the only police vote RP is going to get is from cops who believe in the Constitution.

[AndrewD]

I oppose police as an institution, a concept, an idea.

They have, as I have noted a gazillion times, become the occupying army of an increasingly brutal regime, a regime that is one "terror" attack away from "relocation camps".


Opposing the police is your opinion. Not everyone agrees. I happen to have a few very good friends of mine that are great cops that standup for what is moral and right. They do good things on a daily basis and recieve no praise. And don't even think about questioning what I refer to as "good". Because i'm being selective with what I praise them for.

Your idea of a policeless society is far off. We are nowhere close to it, and in no way could handle a society like that today. The majority of police are there to protect and serve, and as much as you don't want to believe it, the majority do just that.

As for your rant on an "occupying army of an increasingly brutal regime" that is just typical sensationalism. You can get the followers on this board to believe you, but I for one don't.

[Anti Federalist]

Opposing the police is your opinion. Not everyone agrees. I happen to have a few very good friends of mine that are great cops that standup for what is moral and right. They do good things on a daily basis and recieve no praise. And don't even think about questioning what I refer to as "good". Because i'm being selective with what I praise them for.

Your idea of a policeless society is far off. We are nowhere close to it, and in no way could handle a society like that today. The majority of police are there to protect and serve, and as much as you don't want to believe it, the majority do just that.

As for your rant on an "occupying army of an increasingly brutal regime" that is just typical sensationalism. You can get the followers on this board to believe you, but I for one don't.

First, I thought the whole idea of a message forum was to exchange opinions and ideas?

Second, I'll question whatever I feel like.

Third, believe whatever you wish.

Fourth, I'm to assume you disagree with Ron Paul on the following:


Those who believe a police state can't happen here are poor students of history.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Opposing the police is your opinion. Not everyone agrees. I happen to have a few very good friends of mine that are great cops that standup for what is moral and right. They do good things on a daily basis and recieve no praise. And don't even think about questioning what I refer to as "good". Because i'm being selective with what I praise them for.

Your idea of a policeless society is far off. We are nowhere close to it, and in no way could handle a society like that today. The majority of police are there to protect and serve, and as much as you don't want to believe it, the majority do just that.

As for your rant on an "occupying army of an increasingly brutal regime" that is just typical sensationalism. You can get the followers on this board to believe you, but I for one don't.

oh for pete's sake. Not everyone who thinks differently than you is a sensationalist. I hope the mods are keeping an eye on you, too. You haven't been here long, but for some reason you feel it prudent to constantly go after established members. Nothing worthy of a ban yet, but guys like you come and go.

I'd rather you be a productive member of the community here.

[speciallyblend]

AF your fine , do not worry! Your stories keep me angry enough to put up with the gop bs.

[AndrewD]

First, I thought the whole idea of a message forum was to exchange opinions and ideas?

Second, I'll question whatever I feel like.

Third, believe whatever you wish.

Of course, your absolutely correct on all three points.

What I am saying, is that I disagree with you entirely on the police concept. Also that I see you constantly pushing a biased agenda (that I believe is false).

And thirdly, that people *here* are following you like sheep. Buying into the sensationalism.

But that's your right. I'm not calling for censorship.

However, expect to see me becoming more active in promoting the good and often unappreciated actions of police officers. If that means I need to start derailing your negative threads with positive stories, so be it. I will be excercising my same rights as you.

For every 1000 good actions of a police officer, it only takes 1 negative to make news. And we can all count on you Mr. Federalist, to be standing there with the "gotcha" gun ready to fire away.

[AndrewD]

oh for pete's sake. Not everyone who thinks differently than you is a sensationalist.

Not sure how you came up with that conclusion. I specifically called out AF as being a sensationalist, I thought I made that pretty clear.

[Dr.3D]

This looks to me like the people who are licensed to cut trees in that city are upset someone is doing it free. I'd bet the others are getting paid by the city and homeowners to get rid of those damaged trees. To them, having a person doing it for free is the same as him scabbing on them. Can't have the city employees upset with the city for not getting rid of the free competition.

[Anti Federalist]

Of course, your absolutely correct on all three points.

What I am saying, is that I disagree with you entirely on the police concept. Also that I see you constantly pushing a biased agenda (that I believe is false).

And thirdly, that people *here* are following you like sheep. Buying into the sensationalism.

But that's your right. I'm not calling for censorship.

However, expect to see me becoming more active in promoting the good and often unappreciated actions of police officers. If that means I need to start derailing your negative threads with positive stories, so be it. I will be excercising my same rights as you.

For every 1000 good actions of a police officer, it only takes 1 negative to make news. And we can all count on you Mr. Federalist, to be standing there with the "gotcha" gun ready to fire away.

Be my guest.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Of course, your absolutely correct on all three points.

What I am saying, is that I disagree with you entirely on the police concept. Also that I see you constantly pushing a biased agenda (that I believe is false).

And thirdly, that people *here* are following you like sheep. Buying into the sensationalism.

But that's your right. I'm not calling for censorship.

However, expect to see me becoming more active in promoting the good and often unappreciated actions of police officers. If that means I need to start derailing your negative threads with positive stories, so be it. I will be excercising my same rights as you.

For every 1000 good actions of a police officer, it only takes 1 negative to make news. And we can all count on you Mr. Federalist, to be standing there with the "gotcha" gun ready to fire away.

I don't think you can derail his threads due to this Forum Guideline...


+ Posts should respect the intent and desires of the Topic Starter.

...but feel free to start your own threads about good cops. I actually think that would be a good idea.

[BamaAla]

This is a horrible story and deserves to be explored and updated. If Andrew has a problem with AF posting news stories, he should create a call out thread and hash it out in there. You should allow this one stay on topic.

[Dr.3D]

LOL, "It's only the bad apples that make the other 5% look bad."

:D

[speciallyblend]

Opposing the police is your opinion. Not everyone agrees. I happen to have a few very good friends of mine that are great cops that standup for what is moral and right. They do good things on a daily basis and recieve no praise. And don't even think about questioning what I refer to as "good". Because i'm being selective with what I praise them for.

Your idea of a policeless society is far off. We are nowhere close to it, and in no way could handle a society like that today. The majority of police are there to protect and serve, and as much as you don't want to believe it, the majority do just that.

As for your rant on an "occupying army of an increasingly brutal regime" that is just typical sensationalism. You can get the followers on this board to believe you, but I for one don't.


I am not here to praise good cops. That is their job. We are here to expose the corrupt police state. I think we all know there are good police officers. One married us. bottom line is if you do not like the af stories? It might be best to talk to your police officer friends like i do and make sure they support Ron Paul and hold corrupt police accountable instead of giving them paid vacations. We do live in a police state and the police are domestic terrorists thru the drug war and the corruption with in many police departments! If anything i blame the good police for allowing this bs to happen and not speak up!! Do i trust police? HELL NO!! I trust neighbors not police! further note i respect police officers if they are doing their job,sadly i have had enough run ins with police do know if they are just doing their job or trying to use you to generate money and bend you over!! Generally Colorado Cops are over all good but you can tell if they are from out of state quick! I give them C+ be nice and a F for pulling me over like 4 times and a B for no tickets since i know my rights and i am very nice to them!! police are like slot machines. they are out there to take your money it is not about safety and very rare a cop catches a crime in action except traffic. They are usually there to write tickets and try to clean up like a janitor!

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Not sure how you came up with that conclusion. I specifically called out AF as being a sensationalist, I thought I made that pretty clear.

You've specifically called out other users in other threads for being "sensationalists". You've also frequently called people trolls. I'm not going to take the time to copy and paste all that crap, but if anyone wants to see it, all they need to do is go through your 200 posts. Doesn't take too long.

[Anti Federalist]

Not sure how you came up with that conclusion. I specifically called out AF as being a sensationalist, I thought I made that pretty clear.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?295635-Breaking-Adam-Kokesh-just-got-arrested-(May-28-2011)&p=3306709&viewfull=1#post3306709

You seem to think Adam Kokesh is a sensationalist as well.

Tell me, what defines sensationalism to you?

[speciallyblend]

Not sure how you came up with that conclusion. I specifically called out AF as being a sensationalist, I thought I made that pretty clear.

he posts stories, the media does the rest but bottom line is he is posting true stories! if you do not like afs threads stop opening them and ignore him!!

[Dr.3D]

Damn, can't find my picture of a train wreck.

[speciallyblend]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?295635-Breaking-Adam-Kokesh-just-got-arrested-(May-28-2011)&p=3306709&viewfull=1#post3306709

You seem to think Adam Kokesh is a sensationalist as well.

Tell me, what defines sensationalism to you?

I trust Adam Kokesh before i would ever trust a police officer now that i think about it;)

[Anti Federalist]

he posts stories, the media does the rest but bottom line is he is posting true stories! if you do not like afs threads stop opening them and ignore him!!

AndrewD has some sort of issue with people raising hell and being recognized for it.

I'm not sure what that issue is yet.

[AndrewD]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?295635-Breaking-Adam-Kokesh-just-got-arrested-(May-28-2011)&p=3306709&viewfull=1#post3306709

You seem to think Adam Kokesh is a sensationalist as well.

Tell me, what defines sensationalism to you?

If you read my posts in that thread you can get a very clear idea of how I define my positions.

And i'm all for keeping people, including the police accountable.

But you stand on the sidelines with a "gotcha" gun, waiting for the 1 in 1000 to do something wrong, and then blast away?

That to me is no different than the MSM preying on Ron Paul for that one "gotcha" UBL statement, and blasting him off. They ignore the entire principle of what Ron stands for, they ignore the big picture of what he says as well.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Damn, can't find my picture of a train wreck.

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/members/vertigo+paris/albums/misc+pics-36/thread-derail-1953.jpg

[speciallyblend]

Damn, can't find my picture of a train wreck.

no someone came onto this thread to attack af for posting stories. steve folks have lost houses cars and their money and some also losing jobs and are homeless . You want negative??/S

[Dr.3D]

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/members/vertigo+paris/albums/misc+pics-36/thread-derail-1953.jpg

Thanks!

[speciallyblend]

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/members/vertigo+paris/albums/misc+pics-36/thread-derail-1953.jpg

does that means steve is off the thread? he should be!

[Nate-ForLiberty]

no someone came onto this thread to attack af for posting stories. steve folks have lost houses cars and their money and some also losing jobs and are homeless . You want negative??/S

did I go dyslexic, or are other people having trouble understanding this?

[Dr.3D]

did I go dyslexic, or are other people having trouble understanding this?

I'm with ya bro.

Oh, by steve, I guess he is pointing at this post.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?296616-MN-Cops-city-quot-official-quot-fine-and-threaten-to-arrest-man-for-helping-tornado-clean-up.&p=3317852&viewfull=1#post3317852

[speciallyblend]

If you read my posts in that thread you can get a very clear idea of how I define my positions.

i think you have been watching to much housewives on tv stop the drama . you are the definition of sensationalists. this thread proves it to me. All see if you taking af stories out of context. The thread was fine until you wrecked it! You are exactly what you are trying to label AF! Which he is not!

[speciallyblend]

did I go dyslexic, or are other people having trouble understanding this?

i understand that steve and other posters decided to attack af for media printing stories and him relaying them here! which is flatout BS!

[Anti Federalist]

Damn, can't find my picture of a train wreck.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3cib3fK139M/TQh-xdztdjI/AAAAAAAAGHI/f0lav7Wyp3s/s400/Train+wreck+02.JPG

[speciallyblend]

I'm with ya bro.

Oh, by steve, I guess he is pointing at this post.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?296616-MN-Cops-city-quot-official-quot-fine-and-threaten-to-arrest-man-for-helping-tornado-clean-up.&p=3317852&viewfull=1#post3317852

yeah ,the point is this thread was about the story and a few folks came here to screw the thread for no reason. Af's media story threads are better to read then watching msm on tv for sure and he is usually a few days earlier.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

I'm with ya bro.

Oh, by steve, I guess he is pointing at this post.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?296616-MN-Cops-city-quot-official-quot-fine-and-threaten-to-arrest-man-for-helping-tornado-clean-up.&p=3317852&viewfull=1#post3317852

oh hey, I think I understand now. I'm not dyslexic, speciallyblend is speaking through the bottle. :D

[Dr.3D]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3cib3fK139M/TQh-xdztdjI/AAAAAAAAGHI/f0lav7Wyp3s/s400/Train+wreck+02.JPG


Ah there it is.

I guess steve005 must have left something on the tracks.

[speciallyblend]

oh hey, I think I understand now. I'm not dyslexic, speciallyblend is speaking through the bottle. :D

wtf is your problem , f off! somebody ban me before i go off!!

[Anti Federalist]

If you read my posts in that thread you can get a very clear idea of how I define my positions.

And i'm all for keeping people, including the police accountable.

But you stand on the sidelines with a "gotcha" gun, waiting for the 1 in 1000 to do something wrong, and then blast away?

That to me is no different than the MSM preying on Ron Paul for that one "gotcha" UBL statement, and blasting him off. They ignore the entire principle of what Ron stands for, they ignore the big picture of what he says as well.

So, when that 1 in a 1000 becomes 1 in a 100, or 1 in 10, then is it no longer "sensationalism"?

Oh and by the way, how do you hold police accountable, if not by reporting police abuse and misconduct?

[Nate-ForLiberty]

wtf is your problem , f off! somebody ban me before i go off!!

lol :D

+rep

[Dr.3D]

lol :D

+rep

Oh, so that's how it's done.

F off!

(waits for +Rep)

[speciallyblend]

back to topic is this guy gonna pay the fine or go to court and fight it??

[Anti Federalist]

Or maybe when it becomes 16 times more likely?

How about 32?

64?

See Sig line below VVVV

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Oh, so that's how it's done.

F off!

(waits for +Rep)

"You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."

....ya snooze ya lose Dr.3D.

[speciallyblend]

Oh, so that's how it's done.

F off!

(waits for +Rep)

you gotta work 35 days straight first to work up to it ;)

[malkusm]

Please honor the original thread topic. If you have an issue with specific post content that you feel breaks forum guidelines, please report the post by clicking the "!" triangle at the bottom of the offending post. If you have something else to say, please start a new thread. Remember to criticize the content of the message but never attack the character of a member.

Please just make it easy on the hard-working moderators here and just respect the forum guidelines (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?22-Site-Policies-Usage-Guidelines-and-Other-Important-Information).....mmmmk?

ETA: Only posted here because we've had a couple complaints about this thread being derailed....consider it officially back on topic. Anything off-topic from the subject of the OP from this point forward is subject to being deleted or split.

[Anti Federalist]

Huh???? ^^^^

[AndrewD]

So, when that 1 in a 1000 becomes 1 in a 100, or 1 in 10, then is it no longer "sensationalism"?

Well the Internal Affairs need to be contacted for every single infraction. The Internal Affairs need to also be held accountable to ensure they are doing their job and holding each and every police officer accountable.

That is where you draw your statistics from. Each month, quarter, or year you can see the rise or fall in police violence. And in reality, YOU sir should be working for the IA. Put your dedication to use. We could use folks like you who are not afraid to stand up and hold people accountable.

But what your doing, is scouring the internet finding as many police offenders as possible, and mindlessly posting them on a message board. In reality you only get a few per week, many of which are from months ago. So the numbers are not on your side, but shhhh don't tell your sheep that. All the while you are ignoring the many heroic and lifesaving, selfless actions of the police.

Would you give your life to stop a bank robber? I read a story on that a few weeks ago. Great, heroic cop. Left a family behind.

Your justification is that, in your mind, the numbers will increase. Right now they may be 1 in 10,000, but a few years from now it could be 1 in 1,000, and so on. With that type of rationalization, there is absolutely no room for mistake. For human error. Believe it or not sometimes these things are in fact human error. That's not said to pardon the cop for his mistake, but to highlight the difference between an honest, scared mistake, and outright police brutality.

I'll refer to my point made earlier. What your doing is the same as the MSM playing "gotcha" politics with Ron Paul. With your rationalization, we should all be ignoring Dr. Paul for his principles, and instead firing away at his (taken out of context) UBL statements.

[Anti Federalist]

Would you give your life to stop a bank robber? .

I've broken up two armed robberies.

I have more than one marine lifesaving award.

I've never worn a government badge or uniform.

[Anti Federalist]

Well the Internal Affairs need to be contacted for every single infraction. The Internal Affairs need to also be held accountable to ensure they are doing their job and holding each and every police officer accountable.

And who then investigates the affairs of Internal Affairs?


But what your doing, is scouring the internet finding as many police offenders as possible, and mindlessly posting them on a message board. In reality you only get a few per week, many of which are from months ago. So the numbers are not on your side, but shhhh don't tell your sheep that. All the while you are ignoring the many heroic and lifesaving, selfless actions of the police.

I have already made it clear that I hold back roughly 95 percent of the stories I see.

I'll never win with folks that look at it like you do, because if I posted unclear, ambiguous stories or cases where the facts are in question, I would get accused of "cop bashing" as well.

And why the hate at fellow RPF members?


Your justification is that, in your mind, the numbers will increase. Right now they may be 1 in 10,000, but a few years from now it could be 1 in 1,000, and so on. With that type of rationalization, there is absolutely no room for mistake. For human error. Believe it or not sometimes these things are in fact human error. That's not said to pardon the cop for his mistake, but to highlight the difference between an honest, scared mistake, and outright police brutality.

This is not the case. The dynamics have been changed as have the rules of the game. The "force continuum" has been changed from a vertical to circular scale.

A cop can use any method of forcing compliance or any use of force needed to control a situation or protect "officer safety".

That is why these cases are increasing. The reason for this is twofold: lawsuits and the feds.

I witnessed this first hand at the meetings of the police commission I attend in my Little home town.


I'll refer to my point made earlier. What your doing is the same as the MSM playing "gotcha" politics with Ron Paul. With your rationalization, we should all be ignoring Dr. Paul for his principles, and instead firing away at his (taken out of context) UBL statements.

You never answered before:

Do you agree or disagree with Ron Paul on this:


Those who believe a police state can't happen here are poor students of history.

[AndrewD]

You never answered before:

Do you agree or disagree with Ron Paul on this:

"Those who believe a police state can't happen here are poor students of history."

I agree. But my approach and solution is not like yours, which is to disband the entire police force. I would keep a check/counter-check system in place to hold both police and the IA accountable. Police officers who are fired for violent abuse would be given a Bad Conduct discharge and charged under more strict legal provisions than the everyday citizen. Police are to be held to higher standards. If assault and battery gets the mundane 5 years, then the cop gets 8. Etc. To me the system is all wrong because there is no accountablity.

As for the "force continuum" ... I am unaware of this. I don't use it. I use both the "Opportunity, Intent, Capability" and the "Use of Force" models. There is no perfect solution or handbook to give an officer to tell him how to react. There is no perfect way to judge how a culprit will react. He could be compliant in one moment, and then violent the next. These are legal guidelines, and when followed, they are accurate.

[Anti Federalist]

As for the "force continuum" ... I am unaware of this. I don't use it. I use both the "Opportunity, Intent, Capability" and the "Use of Force" models. There is no perfect solution or handbook to give an officer to tell him how to react. There is no perfect way to judge how a culprit will react. He could be compliant in one moment, and then violent the next. These are legal guidelines, and when followed, they are accurate.

I am assuming then, you are an MP in the military stationed in Germany?

I can assure you that the circular force continuum is what is being taught and trained to stateside cops.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Dammit I seem to have misplaced that Michael Jackson eating popcorn picture I used in the old Campaign for Liberty drama threads that I see reused all the time. I am really enjoying this thread. I have really been waiting for AndrewD to break open the anarchist can of slander on AF and watch the fireworks...

AF I don't think you cited that thread with all of the police statistics to the young padawan. He seems to be under the impression you are pulling very real statistics out of your ass...

OoOOoo, I am such an instigator sometimes... :)

[Anti Federalist]

I agree. But my approach and solution is not like yours, which is to disband the entire police force. I would keep a check/counter-check system in place to hold both police and the IA accountable. Police officers who are fired for violent abuse would be given a Bad Conduct discharge and charged under more strict legal provisions than the everyday citizen. Police are to be held to higher standards. If assault and battery gets the mundane 5 years, then the cop gets 8. Etc. To me the system is all wrong because there is no accountablity.

I'm all for disbanding city and state police with appointed "officers", no doubt.

I am in favor of duly elected and sworn Sheriffs and their deputies, along with sworn citizen "posses".

Read this sometime:

http://www.amazon.com/Constitutional-Homeland-Security-Americans-Revitalize/dp/0967175925

[AFPVet]

I'm all for disbanding city and state police with appointed "officers", no doubt.

I am in favor of duly elected and sworn Sheriffs and their deputies, along with sworn citizen "posses".



This!

[Anti Federalist]

Dammit I seem to have misplaced that Michael Jackson eating popcorn picture I used in the old Campaign for Liberty drama threads that I see reused all the time. I am really enjoying this thread. I have really been waiting for AndrewD to break open the anarchist can of slander on AF and watch the fireworks...

AF I don't think you cited that thread with all of the police statistics to the young padawan. He seems to be under the impression you are pulling very real statistics out of your ass...

OoOOoo, I am such an instigator sometimes... :)

From just one site, from just three days...


One New Orleans LA police officer has resigned and another is on leave while under investigation on allegations that they planted durgs on a man they picked up and questioned in their cruiser. The allegations came to light after a defense attorney looked into claims by the victim that one officer wasn’t even there when he was picked up, contrary to the police report. Instead, the officer was at the dentist at the time of the arrest. [0] http://bit.ly/jbJi9H
More allegations are mounting against Miami Beach FL police now that a couple has come forward and accused them of demanding they stop videotaping a controversial shooting incident and detained them at gunpoint. The man hid the SIM card from his phone in his mouth when he was detained and interrogated at a command post, which is why he was able to show the video to reporters while others have claimed that police destroyed their cameras… including one man who claimed police tackled him to get his before crushing it, as we tracked previously. [5] http://bit.ly/meSv3K
An RCMP officer in North Vancouver BC is charged with assault after an investigation into an excessive force complaint by woman he detained. No details were released. [1] http://bit.ly/kURpxi
Irvine CA is being sued by 2 women claiming cops detained and interrogated them without charging them and, in the process, forced one of them to urinate herself by refusing to let her use a restroom and allowing the other to urinate in front of them while they shined a flashlight on her genitals. [3] http://bit.ly/lSZEFG
The Maricopa County AZ sheriff’s dept reached a settlement agreement with the US DOJ by handing over records and granting access to personnel as requested by the DOJ as part of their civil rights probe into that department. [3] http://bit.ly/jmOqcE
An Albuquerque NM cop is being investigated for allegedly erasing video from TV reporter’s camera while arresting her for trespassing in a nightclub parking lot where she was trying to do a report about allegations of drug dealing at a rave. [0] http://bit.ly/jqXVhz
Charleston County SC deputy fatally shot a family’s dog after they called about a neighbor’s dog that strayed into their yard. The deputy claims the dog was charging him when he fired the shot but the family and an autopsy by a veterinarian contradicts his report. [1] http://bit.ly/jsoCAO
Miami FL police officer charged w/possession w/intent to distribute by the FBI after he was caught w/bags of cocaine & pot that were confiscated from a dealer. Another officer is under investigation in that case as well. [0] http://bit.ly/jkMlEr
A Nash County NC deputy was fired after charged w/possession of cocaine after a multi-agency investigation. [0] http://bit.ly/kbDfUL
The former Martins Ferry OH police chief who is in prison for breaking into an actress’ nanny’s home is now facing theft charges on allegations he stole firearms from his department while he was chief. [0] http://bit.ly/kv9SRk
A San Diego CA cop is under investigated on allegations he sent explicit pics of a detained woman that he found on her phone to his phone. [2] http://bit.ly/jheUCX
A Philadelphia PA cop was arrested for allegedly assaulting his girlfriend then assaulting his estranged wife 4 days later [0] http://bit.ly/j40s8b
New York NY police detective indicted for his alleged role in running an illegal gambling operation following an FBI investigation [0] http://nyp.st/mMmGNU
The Laurens County SC sheriff is facing a lawsuit accusing him of forcing a female employee to quit after she refused to abort their child from their affair. [4] http://bit.ly/mqkJky
Kern Co CA deputy arrested on embezzlement charges for allegedly falsifying time sheets for $3,300 worth of hrs [0] http://bit.ly/jHg15p
A Whispering Pines NC cop was sentenced to probation for lying about his drug history in order to become a police officer. [0] http://bit.ly/lLsqFL
Franklin Co VA deputy charged with murder for shooting his wife to death after chasing her to a gas station parking lot in his police car. He’s also under investigation, but not charged, for the subsequent shootout he had with state police 20 minutes later that left one trooper wounded. [0] http://bit.ly/mv1IEe
3 Atlanta GA cops investigated over videotaped incident showing cop repeatedly kick man as he laid prone on ground [0] http://bit.ly/iYUKtI
Dane County WI deputy fired for excessive force for elbowing & punching cuffed man in a restraint chair at jail [0] http://bit.ly/mrHYSV
Ashtabula OH cop faces his 3rd lawsuit in a year by a man who alleges he used excessive force by tasering him then releasing his police dog on him when he was being arrested for drinking a beer on his own property. [3] http://bit.ly/mnbwBI
Shenandoah PA police chief sentenced to 13mo and one of his officers was sentenced to 3mo for false reporting in an effort to cover for teens who beat an immigrant to death in a racially-motivated attack. [0] http://bit.ly/jSk7AB
West Baton Rouge Parish LA deputy sentenced to 30days & 6mo house arrest for breaking a man’s jaw by beating him then slamming him into a wall in a jail shower in retaliation for an officer who injured himself while chasing him after he stole $20. [0] http://bit.ly/jfr8sN
Walton County FL deputy sentenced to 15yrs for breaking his infant daughter’s skull & leg by throwing her into her crib in a fit of rage witnessed by his other children. [0] http://bit.ly/jkFx8g
Houston TX cop under investigation of breaking into someone’s house while clad in shorts, barefoot, drunk and off duty in order to chase teens he claimed were smoking cigarettes. [1] http://bit.ly/mvTGRZ
2 Baltimore MD cops get probation & keep their badges after convicted of official misconduct for grabbing teens off the street and interrogating them in a van before dropping them off in the middle of nowhere with no way to get home. [0] http://bit.ly/mvTGRZ
Opa-Locka FL sued by mom alleging her son was brutally beaten & raped when cops refused to enforce protection order [3] http://bit.ly/jbK3ap
Beaumont TX ISD police officer under investigation for allegedly sexually assaulting woman while working security [1] http://bit.ly/lQp1CE
Oldham KY cop charged w/harassment for threatening a woman involved in a false arrest lawsuit against that officer by neighbors who allege he uses his position to harass all of them. The chief says he won’t suspend him. [3] http://bit.ly/iZw3dK
Louisville KY police sued by man claiming he was jailed 11yrs on wrongful rape & robbery charges due to police misconduct [3] http://bit.ly/iwqNEp
Minneapolis MN & St Paul MN settle suit for undisclosed sum to RNC protester injured when shot w/marking round [3] http://bit.ly/kW4xX6
Anchorage AK cop pleads guilty to federal charges for living in the country illegally with a stolen passport [0] http://bit.ly/jJMXwd
Idaho State trooper on leave while under investigation after supreme court questions his testimony [0] http://bit.ly/m0YrhR
DeKalb Co GA deputy indicted for abuse of authority & lying to feds about protecting accused car thieves [0] http://bit.ly/isd7ql
Long Beach CA cop sentenced to probation in plea deal for embezzling at least 4 firearms turned over to department [0] http://bit.ly/k3AjKa
Maricopa CA told by grand jury to stop aggressive traffic stops & impounds vs Hispanic drivers as revenue source [3] http://bit.ly/jc60qG
Newburgh NY cop arrested on DV-related felony assault charge for allegedly hitting woman in face w/glass [0] http://bit.ly/lp8HmJ
Ector County TX deputy charged w/misd assault for domestic altercation w/brother, sheriff blames PTSD from a previous shootout. [0] http://bit.ly/iiVJHn
Denver CO police detective fired for misleading statements about his mishandled investigation into hit-&-run [0] http://cbsloc.al/mqVCH8
Whitemarsh PA cop arrested on drug & theft charges after caught on hidden camera stealing morphine from an ambulance company he helped run. [0] http://bit.ly/jw7Vj5
irst I wanted to mention an article from Tulsa OK by This Land Press which discusses an excessive force incident that happened in 2000 but appeared to have slipped under the radar even though it resulted in the officer being disciplined with a 2-day suspension. The article cites our statistics in regard to Tulsa and is very well written so I do recommend reading it… but it also highlights the problems we face trying to track and document police misconduct… this incident took years to come to light, who knows how many others never do. Still, we try to do the best we can to track what we do find, someone has to.

The case cited, by the way, resulted in disciplinary action against an officer who was shown on dashcam video kicking a passenger in a car after he surrendered following a high-speed chase. I’m checking to see when the disciplinary action occurred to determine if it belongs in our database.

Now, here are the 17 reports of police misconduct tracked in our National Police Misconduct News Feed for this Tuesday, May 31, 2011:

Streamwood IL cop sentenced to probation for beating motorist w/metal baton 15x & tasering passenger on dashcam video [0] http://trib.in/jd6b6I
South Bend IN settles suit for $48k to man who had broken ribs, ruptured spleen & punctured lung after cop tackled him w/o warning [0] http://bit.ly/jBKlau
3 Phoenix AZ cops sued by man claiming the officers lied about why they tasered him and beat him with flashlights because there was no way he could have ran from them and assaulted them… he claims he’s partially paralyzed due to a childhood bout with polio. [3] http://bit.ly/j5sh9R
Cincinnati OH cop under investigation after shooting an unarmed suspect in the hand when he was found hiding in a closet… but the officer is refusing to tell investigators why. [0] http://bit.ly/jPotMr
Southgate MI police officer charged w/sexual assault for allegedly taking a domestic violence victim to a hotel for her own safety and then returning later and sexually assaulting her. [0] http://bit.ly/mgSjuj
Colorado Springs CO cop already facing child porn & sex assault charges involving 6 boys may have 5 more victims, bringing the count to 11. [0] http://bit.ly/kUgLDA
Miami Beach FL cops are accused of taking cell phones from witnesses and even attacking one man and crushing his cellphone after they filmed an officer-involved shooting incident that left an unarmed man dead and injured 4 innocent bystanders. [5] http://bit.ly/kI2Cj4
Leon Valley TX cop suspended for firing weapon at neighbor’s homes while drunk, two departments are investigated why their officers didn’t arrest him. [1] http://bit.ly/iAoAQa
Broward Co FL deputy arrested woman after mistaking sage for pot but the woman is suing the prosecutor for filing charges against her without waiting for test results from the lab. [3] http://bit.ly/jdyu0S
Fairfield AL police & school sued by mom of a bipolar 5th grader who was cuffed & detained in cruiser to “scare him” into behaving. [3] http://bit.ly/mHpwha
Chattanooga TN settles suit for $150k to a pedestrian badly injured when hit by distracted cop in police cruiser [0] http://bit.ly/iDsNlu
Granby CO cop convicted of sending nude pics of himself & possessing nude pics of a 16yr-old girl he met on while responding to a call at her school. [0] http://bit.ly/k6iXgv
Newark OH cop shoots family’s injured cat to death 20ft away from their front door. The family demands a policy change after saying the officer told them that he didn’t seek their permission because it would have been inconvenient. [0] http://bit.ly/lRmdtv
Maryland Transit police warned by Maryland ACLU to stop detaining people for taking pictures or face civil suit after two incidents that occurred after an agreement by that agency with the ACLU to stop doing it. [0] http://bsun.md/iZ9SfV
Los Angeles Co CA deputy sentenced to 3yrs (1.5 w/good behavior) for stealing $454k in towing fees from town [0] http://bit.ly/kcnyhJ
New Hampshire State trooper sentenced to 6mo w/3 suspended for bribery, exchanged salvage tags for car repairs [0] http://bit.ly/lHCFcq
A Denver CO police sergeant was suspended for 30 days for secretly recording an internal affairs commander in an effort to prove his theory that internal affairs had an anti-cop bias. His supervisor was suspended 80 days for approving the plot. Another officer was fired after a judge found him in contempt, but that is already in our database as a charge against the officer, which supersedes a disciplinary action. [0] http://bit.ly/jFgDD6

[AndrewD]

@Live_Free_Or_Die

You are my nemesis. Along with that other guy whatshisname or whatever. Good to see you here bro. I can always count on you to be there to counter my every point. I say this with light-hearted sarcasm. One day you and I will go at it on Anarchy in a vs battle thread.

@Anti-Federalist

Your Sheriff proposal seems decent. But I need to find time and read your source before commenting further with criticism.

[Anti Federalist]

And the story of the man who runs the Injustice Everywhere site and why he does what he does...


http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/

That’s it for today, but there’s something I wanted to talk about before I go for the day.

Since there have been a lot of new visitors lately and because a number of people have asked why I’m asking for donations as well as why I started this project I figured it might be a good idea to recap what got us here.

In November of 2006 I was badly beaten then arrested for a crime I didn’t commit. I spent over a month in jail without medical treatment for my injuries and another month on home detention before the charges were dismissed thanks to video evidence that showed I didn’t do what I was accused of, a video that police had obtained just a few days after my arrest… because of the delays and continued prosecution the ordeal cost us over $28,000 in lost wages, medical bills, and attorney costs. As the sole earner for my family, we were devastated.

But it wasn’t over because, as a result of being accused of a crime, my employer began to have doubts about me and gradually began taking me off of projects until I was only working 10 hours a week, which forced me to take on a second job in June of 2007. Almost one year later, after filing a useless complaint and failed attempts to find a lawyer to take up a civil suit to recoup our losses, I began “InjusticeInSeattle.org” which began as an attempt to let people know about what happened to me and to focus on other incidents of misconduct in the Seattle area.

Gradually, as I studied the issue more I discovered that focusing on the local issue wasn’t going to change anything, especially since there was no way to gauge how bad the problem of police misconduct was here in comparison to other places. So I began The National Police Misconduct Statistics and Reporting Project in April of 2009 because there was no other source of comparative statistical data about police misconduct in existence… and this kind of information is vital because we cannot hope to help fix a problem that we don’t understand.

However, in the meantime, I had suffered 2 pay cuts at my second job and, shortly after starting the NPMSRP, I finally lost my first job all together. I was forced to do something I never wanted to do, ask for donations.

As the NPMSRP progressed it began getting a little attention, but one of the main problems was that I did it anonymously so people were hesitant to cite it. So, in May of 2010 I went public with my identity despite my fear of retaliation for doing so… In June 2010 I lost my job.

Now, whether the two were connected I’ll never know. My boss was an ardent law enforcement supporter, but I was never given a reason and, after three pay cuts by that point, it really could have been just the economy in general. Still, things went downhill from there. After over 3 months of being unemployed we were finally evicted from our apartment. We found something cheap to live in but it wasn’t a safe place. Luckily I started what was supposed to be a 4.5 month contract in late October, but that ended early in mid-December, shortly after we moved to a safer place.

After another 3 months of unemployment we fell behind in rent. I finally got work on another contract but it was too late and, last month, we were evicted yet again… and now all five of us are living in a hotel room as my contract nears it’s slated end at the end of June.

So, now we find our funds depleted to the point where we can’t afford a deposit on a rental, I’m working a temp job due to end soon, and with 2 evictions on our record it’s a long shot that we’ll find a place to live… and summer is the worst time of year to find work for what I do.

Still, I’ll continue to work on this project for as long as I can, and as long as readers like you want it to continue and want to support it. So, thank you for reading, for your support, and for sticking around through these tough times. May better days be ahead for us all.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I'm all for disbanding city and state police with appointed "officers", no doubt.

I am in favor of duly elected and sworn Sheriffs and their deputies, along with sworn citizen "posses".

Ahab, say it isn't so.... you mean you are actually for getting rid of all officers of the monopoly judicial racket, who have sworn allegiance to the court, and don't give a shit about protecting life, liberty, or property?

Ahab, say it isn't so... you would actually advocate returning local government ownership back to *gasp* local people instead of municipal bond holders?

Ahab, you are an extremist bro. I mean the audacity to advocate having enforcement performed by elected officials? Who would have thought you sere such a dissident? Would you also require these elected officials to maintain bonds so that people could hold them accountable in local tribunals should they abuse their powers like in the grand ol days of the Republic? Wow, just wow. You are too radical for me bro... If you put a bow on top of that kind of limited government I could almost tolerate it...

[Anti Federalist]

"Anti-Federalist, Pro-Sensationalist!"

Oh, and WRT to this ^^^

Sensationalism implies an air of falsehood. There are no false stories posted. I am very careful to note if there is any question about the facts or lack of.

If you want to "accuse" me of being a shit disturber or spreader of agitprop, then I'll gladly "own" that.

[AndrewD]

Sensationalism implies an air of falsehood.


No not necesarily. Here's a definition for you:

"Sensationalism is a manner of over-hyping events, being deliberately controversial, loud, self-centred or acting to obtain attention. It is also a form of theatre."

You, Mr. Anti-Federalist are a champion of sensationalism, as the definition applies to you exponentially.

Not a personal attack, but an obvious observation.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

i think someone is jealous.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

@Live_Free_Or_Die

You are my nemesis.

I wonder if Ron Paul would consider Murray Rothbard, Lew Rockwell, Thomas Woods, or a long list of other people his nemesis. :confused:

[AFPVet]

No not necessarily. Here's a definition for you:

"Sensationalism is a manner of over-hyping events, being deliberately controversial, loud, self-centered or acting to obtain attention. It is also a form of theater."

You, Mr. Anti-Federalist are a champion of sensationalism, as the definition applies to you exponentially.

Not a personal attack, but an obvious observation.

Ahh... but these are times worthy of sensationalism are they not? What we are witnessing are extraordinary times indeed!

[AndrewD]

I wonder if Ron Paul would consider Murray Rothbard, Lew Rockwell, Thomas Woods, or a long list of other people his nemesis. :confused:

Awww come on now bro, your tempting me to derail this thread. I need to work on respecting the forum censorship guidelines.

Remember, you and I will have our chance. It will be a seperate thread with me debunking debating you. Ask Conza88 about our little convo and how he straight up walked away from the debate, completely frustrated and owned.

Your time will come, brother. :p

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Awww come on now bro, your tempting me to derail this thread. I need to work on respecting the forum censorship guidelines.

Remember, you and I will have our chance. It will be a seperate thread with me debunking debating you. Ask Conza88 about our little convo and how he straight up walked away from the debate, completely frustrated and owned.

Your time will come, brother. :p

There is no need to get your panties all bunched up man. Pretend as if you are not directing your sarcastic threats to a former statist, who can also make appeals to authority, that hasn't served in the USMC, or feels like taking poop from censored people. You can also pretend I have no clue on the history of the United States of America or what the words written in the Constitution were actually intended to mean. If you like, feel free to pretend I haven't read hundreds of SCOTUS rulings, Acts of Congress, etc. seeking answers to questions.

I am pretty easy to find and if you need help finding the philosophy sub forum in the event you come up with some kind of argument or explanation its not all based on belief... I am confident there are plenty of people who can give you directions to locate the sub forum in question.

However... by the time you catch up on academics... you will likely realize... there is probably not a whole lot to actually debate. The constitutional system of governance as originally intended is a voluntary system of magic pixie fairy dust. Once you achieve such a state of self awareness, if you are intellectually honest, it is unlikely you will be asserting absurd inferences akin to Ron Paul has libertarian nemesis...

[aGameOfThrones]

AndrewD disapproves of me linking this in another thread. :rolleyes:



During the early morning hours of March 16, 1975 two men (Marvin Kent and James Morse) broke into a house occupied by three women in Washington DC. They found Mrs. Miriam Douglas and her four year old daughter asleep, at which point "...The men entered Douglas' second floor room, where Kent forcer Douglas to sodomize him and Morse raped her." (Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1, 4 (D.C. 1981)) This happened in front of her daughter.

The two other women in the house, Carrolyn Warren and Joan Taliaferro, heard Douglas' screams and called the police. Within 3 minutes four squad cars were dispatched to the house, but the call was radioed out as a "Code 2," a lower priority call than the "Code 1" usually used for crimes in progress.

Warren and Taliaferro crawled out a window onto an adjoining roof and waited for the police to show up. When the police arrived, they knocked on the front door, received no response, and just left.

The two women crawled back in through the window and called the police AGAIN. The call was logged as "investigate the trouble," but no officers were dispatched.

The men then kidnapped all three women. They forced the women at knifepoint to go to Kent's apartment where "...For the next fourteen hours the women were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual acts upon each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands of Kent and Morse." (Id.)

The three victims sued DC and the officers involved for negligently failing to provide adequate police protection, but their case was dismissed. No jury ever heard any of the evidence.

The court stated that "official police personnel and the government employing them are not generally liable to victims of criminal acts for failure to provide adequate police protection." According to the court, this rule "rests upon the fundamental principle that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen." (Id. emphasis added)

The Supreme Court itself ruled that one has no constitutional right to state protection in DeShaney v. Winnebego County Dep't. of Soc. Servs., 489 U.S. 189, 109 S. Ct. 998, 103 L. Ed. 2d 249 (1989). Every jurisdiction in the country has upheld similar rulings. It's part of the "qualified immunity" that government claims for itself. It's one of the most well-settled issues in American Jurisprudence.

Government, AT ANY LEVEL, has no positive duty to protect your life, liberty, or property. They tell you flat out, if you bother to look, that this is the case.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?228509-The-Myth-of-Police-Protection&highlight=Myth+police+protection

[specsaregood]

I appreciate AF's posts. Anybody that doesn't like them can use some self-control and skip his threads.

[newbitech]

What is this thread about?

I can't believe the city officials would be so obtuse. I hope that someone from the affected area reads the Ron Paul Forums and finds out about this incident that AF posted. I hope they find out who that city official was and who the cops were that threated this law abiding good Samaritan. I hope that chastise these people for not only being ignorant civil "servants" but also for obstructing lawful activities under color of law.

Thanks AF, for posting stuff like this. Until every city gets local reporters to expose their "servants" acting like masters, your threads will have to do. You are doing the work of a nation here by keeping us all focused on what is important.

I know you don't need the encouragement, or the +rep, but I will just say this, if the thread crashers in this thread persist, I'll gladly step in and take the e-bullet for ya!

[JohnMeridith]

trust me, that's not what I want to do. but instead of just posting every story he can find about cops shooting or beating someone up... I don't know maybe one post a day with all the cop incidents on one post, the more negative threads there are at any given time means there will be less positive(and productive) posts viewable.
Don't read his posts...duh



I agree, but don't we see enough already. I know whats going on, when I come to the RON PAUL FORUMS though I don't want to see 5 or ten posts of cops beating people up on them, how is that helping our cause?

maybe you should complain to the cops then or just follow my instructions above.

[Anti Federalist]

No not necesarily. Here's a definition for you:

"Sensationalism is a manner of over-hyping events, being deliberately controversial, loud, self-centred or acting to obtain attention. It is also a form of theatre."

You, Mr. Anti-Federalist are a champion of sensationalism, as the definition applies to you exponentially.

Not a personal attack, but an obvious observation.

So, all of this is just an effort to self promote myself?

It's somehow about me?

What's your issue, honestly?

Other than me denigrating your chosen profession?

[Anti Federalist]

Oh, and by the way, I want thank everybody for the support.

You guys rock!

[pcosmar]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

One to talk,
A look at your post history show a habit of denigrating others.
is that all you do?

And a nice thread derail too.
I have lived in Hurricane areas and have seen first hand the incompetence of FEMA and other Govt agencies., and the successes of volunteers.
This incident is not uncommon. But it is largely unknown and unpublicized.

[Kylie]

Emotion and reason do not go hand in hand, as shown by andrews posts.


I would like to follow this story and see if they drop the charges. The whole idea of using force to stop people from working voluntarily with one another is abhorrent to the fundemental principles of our country.

[pcosmar]

@Live_Free_Or_Die

You are my nemesis. Along with that other guy whatshisname or whatever. Good to see you here bro. I can always count on you to be there to counter my every point. I say this with light-hearted sarcasm. One day you and I will go at it on Anarchy in a vs battle thread.

@Anti-Federalist

Your Sheriff proposal seems decent. But I need to find time and read your source before commenting further with criticism.

You should also read this. ( I believe I have given you this link before)
ARE COPS CONSTITUTIONAL?
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

And you don't have to buy a book, it's free online. And not from some "questionable" site.
It is from the Constitution Society site. And there is a wealth of information there.
http://constitution.org/c5/index.php

[Schifference]

Thanks for all the posts AF!! When you post links I bookmark them and visit the sites myself to see what abuse is going on that you don't post. This is very informative and I have used your posts to educate my children and wife regarding how to not call the police and how to respond when confronted by them. Your posts are very relevant to the RP cause because it allows people to see how their liberties and civil rights are being violated and taken away before their very eyes. The more of these posts people see the more they are concerned for their own well being. The current and past administrations use fear to keep the sheep in line. I think it is refreshing to understand and fear the police state we are confronted with.
Thanks again and keep up the good work!

[Bern]

Abuse of power is always a relevant subject IMO. I'm glad AF shares his zealous interest in police abuse here.

[steve005]

A look at your post history show a habit of denigrating others.


where? and thats not even what I was doing here, so what are you talking about?

I didn't "de-rail" this thread. how is questioning the overall thread de-railing the thread or "denigrating" others?

Sorry everybody, I understand now. I do sometimes talk about this stuff with friends who don't realize how bad it is

[AndrewD]

So, all of this is just an effort to self promote myself?

It's somehow about me?

What's your issue, honestly?

Other than me denigrating your chosen profession?

No the definition is pretty broad, and can be used in many different contexts. You chose the wrong one that I define you by. I would focus more on the first two descriptions, that of over-hyping events and being deliberately controversial. I think that pretty much sums it up rather easily. It's sensationalism man, lets not argue semantics. Your not used to getting called out, and I see you countered with something about my profession. Look man, I don't take nothin' personal from you. If i'm a cop and you hate cops ... oh well, won't see me losing a minute of sleep over it, much less bickering about it. But I will keep you honest, and after seeing you sitting on the sidelines time and time again pulling the "gotcha" trigger and getting away with it, I had to call you out bro.

I see you sorted through my previous comments earlier, and were able to dig something up about whatever. And here you are questioning my issue? I think I do a good job of making myself VERY clear. If you don't see where I stand and why i'm callin' you out, I can't help you.

I'd like to suggest you start judging individuals as just that, individuals. It's pretty easy to lump everyone up (cops) into one big group and slam 'em all down. The bottom line is, people are people. Whether they wear a uniform or not. If a chosen individual breaks the law and assaults someone ... they need to be held accountable as an individual. I'm sure your parents taught you that. So the next time you see Officer John Doe bodyslamming an impaired citizen, try calling him out personally ... as I have done with you.

[steve005]

andrew does have a point, if we start holding these cops more acountable as people and not just "cops" maybe they'd calm down. but also the training the cops get also plays a large part in how they treat people. If they think everyone is out to get them then they'll be more likely to pull their gun out, more likely to have finger on the trigger, and more likely for the gun to go off, and thinking everyone is out to get them comes from their training

[pcosmar]

where?

Perhaps just a posting style. (economics and bitcoin threads) I didn't dig all the way back.

But you were the first to attack this thread. post #2

[pcosmar]

Look man, I don't take nothin' personal from you. If i'm a cop and you hate cops ... oh well, won't see me losing a minute of sleep over it, much less bickering about it.

I would not expect it. You do seem to side with authoritarian positions most often.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/authoritarian


And here you are questioning my issue? I think I do a good job of making myself VERY clear. If you don't see where I stand and why i'm callin' you out, I can't help you.
:(




I'd like to suggest you start judging individuals as just that, individuals. It's pretty easy to lump everyone up (cops) into one big group and slam 'em all down. The bottom line is, people are people. Whether they wear a uniform or not. If a chosen individual breaks the law and assaults someone ... they need to be held accountable as an individual. I'm sure your parents taught you that. So the next time you see Officer John Doe bodyslamming an impaired citizen, try calling him out personally ... as I have done with you.

The problem with this is that police are an institution.. And that institution protects itself. The courts the media and the other officers will all defend and protect that individual.
If it was as easy as treating hm as an individual we could just shoot the bastards for threatening our life.

But it is not that simple.
The institution must be disarmed and dismantled.
And people NEED to be educated, to break away from the constantly reinforced mindset that these people/Jobs are even needed.

[AFPVet]

AF is right... the system is flawed. When you let a child get away with too much, they run your life later on.

[Schifference]

I'd like to suggest you start judging individuals as just that, individuals. It's pretty easy to lump everyone up (cops) into one big group and slam 'em all down. The bottom line is, people are people. Whether they wear a uniform or not. If a chosen individual breaks the law and assaults someone ... they need to be held accountable as an individual. I'm sure your parents taught you that. So the next time you see Officer John Doe bodyslamming an impaired citizen, try calling him out personally ... as I have done with you.

The way I see it is that we are not all treated the same. Cops live by different rules than ordinary citizens. They commit crimes get paid leave of absence maybe fired then rehired or reassigned and hardly ever do any time. Citizens on the other hand get body slammed, choked, molested, raped, abused or sent to prison just because the cops don't agree with them.

[nbhadja]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

The police and government piss people off themselves by stupid actions like this. Fuck the police. The life of a policeman or policewoman is certainly worth less than the life of a non policeman/non police woman.

[heavenlyboy34]

Oh, and by the way, I want thank everybody for the support.

You guys rock!
n/p. You are awesome, and a forum hero, sir. :cool: It is no coincidence you get most of my +rep. :D

[Anti Federalist]

No the definition is pretty broad, and can be used in many different contexts. You chose the wrong one that I define you by. I would focus more on the first two descriptions, that of over-hyping events and being deliberately controversial. I think that pretty much sums it up rather easily. It's sensationalism man, lets not argue semantics. Your not used to getting called out, and I see you countered with something about my profession. Look man, I don't take nothin' personal from you. If i'm a cop and you hate cops ... oh well, won't see me losing a minute of sleep over it, much less bickering about it. But I will keep you honest, and after seeing you sitting on the sidelines time and time again pulling the "gotcha" trigger and getting away with it, I had to call you out bro.

I see you sorted through my previous comments earlier, and were able to dig something up about whatever. And here you are questioning my issue? I think I do a good job of making myself VERY clear. If you don't see where I stand and why i'm callin' you out, I can't help you.

I'd like to suggest you start judging individuals as just that, individuals. It's pretty easy to lump everyone up (cops) into one big group and slam 'em all down. The bottom line is, people are people. Whether they wear a uniform or not. If a chosen individual breaks the law and assaults someone ... they need to be held accountable as an individual. I'm sure your parents taught you that. So the next time you see Officer John Doe bodyslamming an impaired citizen, try calling him out personally ... as I have done with you.

Calling me out?

WTF?

This is a fight now? Who the hell are you? Rick Flair?

I got news for you, this ain't a WWF match.

These are issues that cut to the very core of what our nation and lives are, and what they becoming.

You said you agreed with Ron Paul's statement that "people who do not think a police state is possible here, are poor students of history".

Question: why do you suppose it's called a "police state", hmm?

As a government goes bad, who do suppose it is that enforces the edicts and laws of a corrupt regime?

Who is gunning down protesters in Yemen right now?

[Ninja Homer]

We have a police brutality bubble. If you want evidence to what happens when the government doesn't correct the bubble itself, and the people pop the bubble for them, look at the revolution in Egypt. The people took the police on with sticks and stones. If it gets to that point in the US, it won't be that pretty. The mundanes here are armed, and it will be like Egypt x 1000.

Yes, there are good cops, but if they don't start taking care of the bad cops, rather than acting like it's the fraternal brotherhood of elitist thugs, then the good cops will get grouped in with the bad ones. They need to realize that by letting the bad cops freely brutalize people, they are making it more dangerous for themselves.

I don't think Sheriff Mack has been mentioned in this thread yet. I'm guessing most people here know about him, but if not, check him out: http://sheriffmack.com

[Anti Federalist]

No the definition is pretty broad, and can be used in many different contexts. You chose the wrong one that I define you by. I would focus more on the first two descriptions, that of over-hyping events and being deliberately controversial. I think that pretty much sums it up rather easily. It's sensationalism man, lets not argue semantics. Your not used to getting called out, and I see you countered with something about my profession. Look man, I don't take nothin' personal from you. If i'm a cop and you hate cops ... oh well, won't see me losing a minute of sleep over it, much less bickering about it. But I will keep you honest, and after seeing you sitting on the sidelines time and time again pulling the "gotcha" trigger and getting away with it, I had to call you out bro.

Let's address this a little more closely.

I have been asked many times "what are my sources?" for these stories.

It's very simple: I read four sites, Injustice Everywhere, Lew Rockwell's blog, Pro Libertate (Will Grigg's awesome blog) and The Agitator.

I then "google" in news these search terms: Police shoot dog - Police shoot man - Police taser man.

That renders on an average day, roughly 100 stories that could be considered as documenting police abuse.

I then cull them and post one to three. Generally no more than three, unless it was a particularly bad day in the empire.

The headline is often the same one that was used in the original media report, or one that I make sure reflects the facts of the case, as much as they are known.

I find that hard to label as "sensationalism".

Now, my comments, yeah, they are deliberately agitating, not because of any nefarious ulterior motives, but because I am genuinely agitated and pissed off and think other people should be too.

So I fail to see what you think you are "calling out".

So, you can find all these stories as well, along with plenty of stories of cops getting "the bad guys". But as I've already made clear, that's not newsworthy, that the job gets done properly.

For example, just the other day:


Oakridge Police Shoot and Kill Dog

http://kezi.com/news/local/213960


Now, reading the story, there's ambiguity about what happened and repeat calls for the same dog. So, no posting, maybe the right thing was done.

But if you think for one second I'm going to cut any slack to a cop that responds to a non-emergency call, and the second he arrives starts shooting up the place because he felt threatened, or asshole SWAT cops gunning down innocent Marine veterans, you've got another thing coming.

[aGameOfThrones]

Who is gunning down protesters in Yemen right now?

The police, who are just doing their job! What a job!

[Anti Federalist]

I'm pretty sure if aGameOfThrones and Anti-Federalist were getting gang-raped by a group of thugs in a dark alley, they would be very appreciative of a conservative 'ol fellow like myself doing them a favor and calling the local police to come help.~AndrewD with love

Game, you got a link to that post plz?

Thanks.

[aGameOfThrones]

Game, you got a link to that post plz?

Thanks.

Number 69. I lol when I read it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?278107-Are-cops-constitutional/page7

[Anti Federalist]

Number 69. I lol when I read it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?278107-Are-cops-constitutional/page7

ROFLing, thanks.

Now, be quiet mundane and shut up, or I'll call your ass out. :p

[Anti Federalist]

Explaining where my thinking is, with much more eloquence than I can muster.


The Lethal Illusion Called "Authority"

http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2011/05/lethal-illusion-called-authority.html

"Why did you shoot that man? He didn't do anything!"

The question was wrenched from a woman who had watched in horror as Police Officer Ian Birk pumped four shots into the body of John T. Williams on a Seattle street corner last August 30.

Birk claimed that he had been "threatened" by Williams, a 50-year-old alcoholic woodcarver who was carrying two closed knives at the time of the incident. The autopsy, however, documented that Williams wasn't facing Birk when he was shot: The officer approached him from behind and to the right, and Williams was shot in the right side of his body from an estimated distance of about ten feet. A fifth shot that missed the target was never accounted for.

No reasonable person would have considered Williams a threat to Birk; in fact, since the victim was partially deaf, it's likely he never clearly heard Birk's demand that he drop his carving knife, and died before understanding what was going on. The entire lethal encounter lasted less than eight seconds.

There were several eyewitnesses to the homicide. None of them saw Williams display threatening behavior of any kind. Then again, none of them was a member of the State's punitive caste, which means that they hadn't been indoctrinated to perceive even a momentary lack of cooperation by a Mundane as a "pre-attack indicator." During the January inquest into the shooting, Birk explained that he gunned down John T. Williams on a Seattle street corner because he didn't like the way the 50-year-old chronic alcoholic looked at him.

While prowling Seattle’s streets last August 30, Birk saw Williams in a crosswalk carrying a knife and a block of wood. Birk reported that he was going to perform a "shake" -- an informal contact with a potentially suspicious person. He exited his police cruiser and, with his firearm in the "Sul" position, commanded Williams to drop his knife. No more than four seconds passed between Birk’s demand and the first of five gunshots fired by the officer. The entire encounter lasted roughly seven seconds.

Significantly, in the immediate aftermath of the incident, Birk specified that he had killed Williams for refusing to drop the knife, not because of threatening behavior of any kind. He also told another police officer that Williams "was carving up that board" -- which, if true, meant that Birk had seen the knife used as a tool, rather than a weapon.

In the dashcam video, Williams appears to be a small, middle-aged man with a shambling, tentative stride. While crossing the street the artisan does appear to be working with the wood in some fashion. Birk can be seen exiting the car and speaking casually into his portable radio before bellowing "Hey! Hey! Hey! Drop the knife!" Nothing in Birk's posture or tone of voice suggests that he was confronting a potential assailant, or in fear for his life.

Perhaps the most important fact, given Birk's claim that he was "threatened" by the confused, partially deaf woodcarver, is the fact that the officer was the one who was closing the distance in the seconds leading up to the shooting.

Williams had a troubled past characterized by alcoholism and occasional fits of improper public behavior. He was well known to the police as a “chronic inebriate.” In a video recording of an earlier encounter one officer is heard telling another that “I write him a ticket every time I can.”

In the days just prior to the August 30 shooting, Williams was stopped by police on several occasions. In one confrontation, Williams -- who at the time was so deep into his cups that he could barely stand upright -- can be heard making what was described as a “threat” to kill “all you police force.” This “threat” wasn’t taken seriously by the officers, who simply shrugged their shoulders and let Williams shuffle away.

The Seattle police were familiar with Williams, his alcohol abuse, and the occasionally unsavory public behavior that resulted from it. Officers had also seen him carrying a carving knife and a block of wood on previous occasions.

While he wasn’t always pleasant to be around, Williams wasn’t known to be disposed toward violence, and in any case wasn’t physically capable of any. At the time Birk killed him, Williams was carrying two knives, both of which were legal under Seattle municipal ordinances (their blades were under 3.5 inches in length) and were closed when photographed by crime scene investigators.

Officer William Collins, who arrived in response to Birk’s “shots fired” report, told him, seconds after the killing, that he had done a "good job." All that Collins knew at the time was that a fellow member of his coercive brotherhood had just killed a Mundane -- and that's all he needed to know.

During the January shooting inquest, Seattle police brutality lawyer Tim Ford asked Collins if a closed knife constitutes a threat to "officer safety." A closed knife is "a major threat," Collins maintained, "just as big as an open knife.... It's extremely dangerous, and you have to treat the person with utmost caution.... [I]f you don't drop it, you may be shot" -- even if it is closed at the time. After all, Collins insisted -- regurgitating a familiar self-pitying police cliche --"We don't get paid enough to be hurt."

Detective Jeff Mudd, who also testified at the inquest, also asserted that Birk's decision was appropriate: "We're trained to shoot people who pose a threat to us."

In what sense was this puzzled, decrepit old alcoholic, "armed" with a small, closed knife, a "threat" to the young, vigorous, highly trained paladin of public order who confronted him with a drawn gun? The answer offered by Birk was that he was justified in shooting Williams because the woodcarver had given him a dirty look.

"He had a very stern, very serious, very confrontational look on his face," Birk testified during the inquest. "He was still holding the knife up in front of himself ... in a confrontational posture." Birk's use of the word "still" means that Williams's "posture" hadn't changed from the time the officer supposedly saw him "carving up that board" -- which may have been unwise, but couldn't be construed as "confrontational."

A detailed account of the inquest published by The Stranger points out: "No witnesses reported seeing Williams act aggressively toward Birk or anyone else. No witnesses reported seeing a knife in Williams' hand."

Birk mentioned that he and other police are taught the "21-foot rule," which dictates that a knife-wielding subject should be considered a lethal threat within the prescribed distance. But it should be remembered that it was Birk who insisted on closing the distance. Birk also testified that "I motioned for him to come over and talk to me. He walked away."

If Birk, pursuant to the "21 foot rule," considered Williams to be a "threat," why did the officer instruct the woodcarver to come closer? When asked to elucidate that point, Birk stated that "if he would've complied with that command, it would've been a sign that he was compliant with what was going on."

Of course, if Williams had "complied" with that demand, it's entirely possible that he would have been gunned down anyway -- and that Birk would have claimed that the victim had "threatened him" by closing the distance between them.

Birk's testimony, which was clearly scripted for him, is a splendid example of what police call "creative writing" -- or what more honest people call perjury. He claimed that somehow, during the course of their very brief encounter, he saw Williams become "increasingly aggressive.... His brow was furrowed, eyes were fixed in a thousand-yard stare. His jaw was set."

Somehow, in a matter of nano-seconds, the forlorn and inoffensive American Indian woodcarver had -- at least in Birk's eyes -- assumed the fearsome demeanor of the ancient Irish warrior Cuchulain, whose "eyes were dark, his expression sullen."

In a fascinating piece of performance art, Birk recreated for the courtroom the sullen expression and "attack stance" that caused the valiant defender of the public weal to soil his skivvies.

The officer supposedly recognized and acted on these "pre-attack indicators" within the space of about four seconds. The situation "escalated more quickly than I had predicted," Birk insisted on the witness stand. So this was a "split-second decision," correct? Well -- perhaps for the police officer, but not for the victim, who according to Birk had all the time in the world to comply. "Mr. Williams had ample opportunity to do a number of things preventing this situation from becoming what it ultimately became," Birk declared on the stand.

Birk's lavishly detailed description of Williams' threatening behavior is difficult to reconcile with his own behavior in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Nowhere in the video recording of the incident can Birk be heard telling other officers or onlookers that Williams had threatened him with a knife. In his on-scene interview with the above-mentioned Detective Mudd, Birk said nothing about "pre-attack indicators." In his testimony at the inquest -- a pseudo-judicial procedure that is neither a criminal nor a civil trial -- Birk recited his lines like a well-rehearsed soap opera actor, displaying the composure of a sociopath in assigning all of the blame to the victim.

The jury at the inquest was not convinced that Birk had told the truth about the supposed threat posed by Williams. On February 15, Seattle PD's Firearms Review Board ruled that the fatal shooting was "unjustified," and recommended that "Officer Birk must remain stripped of all Seattle Police powers and authority, as he was on October 5th, 2010 when he surrendered his gun and badge."

Birk had clearly committed an act of criminal homicide, and his only "punishment" was to be "stripped" of something nobody really possesses -- the supposed power and authority to engage in discretionary killing.

As we’ve seen on numerous occasions, contemporary law enforcement officers are on a war footing, which means that their default setting is “overkill.” (Birk, like so many other police officers, is a military veteran, having served as a paralegal in the National Guard.) It likewise means that they are functionally immune from prosecution when they commit acts of criminal homicide.

Shortly after the decision of the Firearms Review Board was made public, King County Prosecutor Dan Satterberg announced that although the murder of Williams was “troubling,” no criminal charges would be filed against the murderer. This is because it Satterberg believes it would be impossible to demonstrate that the unjustified killing was the product of malice.

“A jury would be compelled to find Officer Birk not guilty,” Satterberg claimed. This should be taken as an oblique admission by Satterberg that he would have thrown the case if it had gone to trial. The state’s homicide statute recognizes that it is not necessary to demonstrate malice in cases where death results from criminal neglect.

Furthermore, the relevant section Washington’s criminal code describes an offense called “homicide by abuse” in which one person, in “circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to human life,” causes the death of ” a developmentally disabled person”; although this statute was written to apply to cases in which mentally handicapped or otherwise dependent people die from prolonged mistreatment, a properly motivated prosecutor could find a way to convince a jury that the statute should cover an incident in which a police officer summarily executes a deaf, mentally challenged woodcarver.

As is generally the case when a member of the Krypteia slaughters a helot, the only ones punished are the local tax victims: The City of Seattle has announced a $1.5 million settlement with the victim’s family.

Birk himself will probably join the ever-growing ranks of "Gypsy Cops" and turn up somewhere else swaddled in a government-provided costume and invested with the spurious authority to kill.

"Police authority" is a strange, mystical property that leaves a heavy residue of privilege even in those, like Ian Birk, from whom it is withdrawn.

Consider what would happen if the situation had been reversed on that Seattle street corner last August 30: What if Birk had been ordered to divest himself of his weapon by a member of the productive class? What if Birk had been the one gunned down four seconds after that demand had been made by someone who later claimed that he felt "threatened" by Birk's facial expression?

Were a sanctified personage in a police uniform to be killed in that fashion by a Mundane who displayed no malice, D.A. Satterberg would probably find the motivation, and summon the necessary creativity, to build a criminal case.

In a recent case of that kind in Eugene, Oregon, a woman reportedly suffering from schizophrenia allegedly gunned down Officer Chris Kulcullin, who -- his chosen profession aside-- appears to have been a genuinely decent man, with a wife and two children. While the specifics of that horrible episode differ from the killing of John T. Williams, both of those incidents were random acts of unjustified lethal violence. Ian Birk faces no criminal charges. Cheryl Kidd, who allegedly murdered Kulcullin, has been charged with aggravated murder, and could face the death penalty.

The only thing separating those two acts of criminal homicide is "authority" -- that quantity, at once elusive and illusive, that supposedly elevates the State's hired enforcers above the hoi polloi, permitting them to inflict summary punishment on any Mundane who displays so much as a flicker of defiance. It is this ineffable gift that allows Ian Birk and his ilk to gun down, without serious consequence, any Mundane who dares give them a dirty look.

[Schifference]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

[Nate-ForLiberty]

have you ever posted anything positive? It seems like you're just trying to piss people off,

for god sakes, read the thread and don't derail it.

[Schifference]

I have read the entire thread. I was joking

[Nate-ForLiberty]

I have read the entire thread. I was joking

then use an emoticon or something ya goof :p

that's what their they're for.

[speciallyblend]

then use an emoticon or something ya goof :p

that's what their for.

/S works;)

does anyone know if the guy plans on paying the fine???

[Schifference]

Police Video Shows Possible Abuse

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2011/05/27/i-team-police-video-shows-possible-abuse/

[aGameOfThrones]

Police Video Shows Possible Abuse

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2011/05/27/i-team-police-video-shows-possible-abuse/



Sweetwater Police Chief Roberto Fulgueira defended Abreu, saying while his “technique” in subduing the suspect was not ideal, it was not illegal. He said he sent a copy of the video to the Miami Dade State Attorney’s Office which concluded there was no “criminal intent” on the part of Abreu.

But other questions are raised by the officer’s sworn arrest affidavit from the April 17, 2010 incident. The report documents that Dominguez was initially arrested for criminal mischief for allegedly puncturing the tires of a car parked near his trailer. The report then notes Abreu was transported to the Sweetwater Police Department.

Abreu claimed that once they arrived at the station, he ordered Dominguez “4 to 6” times to place his hands on the counter inside the police department. He said Dominguez refused to comply with his demands. Abreu also swore that “suspect launch forward toward officer” and that as a result the suspect was “taken down to floor.” Abreu added the charge of resisting arrest with violence against Dominguez.

A review of the video, however, shows that Dominguez, 38, could not possibly comply with Abreu’s command to place his hands on the counter because his hands were cuffed behind his back. Also nowhere on the video is Dominguez seen launching himself toward the officer. On the contrary, Dominguez was standing still when Abreu grabbed him and threw him to the ground.

Neither the State Attorney nor the Sweetwater Police Department addressed the issue of whether Abreu may have filed a false report under oath or whether he intentionally charged Dominguez with a crime he did not commit.

And there you have it.


Fulgueira defended his department saying he took it upon himself to open a review of Abreu’s actions and that he sent the video to the state attorney right away because he didn’t want to be accused of covering anything up.

He said he knows Sweetwater has a reputation for abusing prisoners. In 2003, a man was nearly beaten to death by four Sweetwater police officers.

“We’ve cleaned this house up,” he said. “We’ve gotten rid of a lot of officers here, a lot of officers.”

Abreu remains a reserve officer in the Sweetwater Police Department. After the incident, he was ordered to take a refresher CPR course as well as attend a class on handcuffing techniques and the proper use of force.

[pcosmar]

the proper use of force.

There is only one proper use of force. and that is in self defense or in defense of another.

I have been called "violent" for some of my statements (usually taken out of context)
I hate violence, but am acquainted with it and it's uses. I am a peaceful old hippie, till you harm or threaten me or mine.

The only PROPER use is in defense, or in providing food for the table (hunting).

[Pericles]

We have a police brutality bubble. If you want evidence to what happens when the government doesn't correct the bubble itself, and the people pop the bubble for them, look at the revolution in Egypt. The people took the police on with sticks and stones. If it gets to that point in the US, it won't be that pretty. The mundanes here are armed, and it will be like Egypt x 1000.

Yes, there are good cops, but if they don't start taking care of the bad cops, rather than acting like it's the fraternal brotherhood of elitist thugs, then the good cops will get grouped in with the bad ones. They need to realize that by letting the bad cops freely brutalize people, they are making it more dangerous for themselves.

I don't think Sheriff Mack has been mentioned in this thread yet. I'm guessing most people here know about him, but if not, check him out: http://sheriffmack.com

This is the core issue. As police are increasingly militarized as a result of the "war on crime", "war on drugs", "war on terror", etc that has posed a danger to those the police now refer to as "civilians" rather than the citizens they are charged to protect. When the imperative is "officer safety" which excuses the incidental death or injury of a "civilian" as mere collateral damage in the greater good of keeping the police safe to fight the war, one can hardly be surprised that US "civilians" being well armed, and many military veterans themselves, get annoyed at playing the role of patsy.

I don't like criminals, and gangs or terrorists either, but when the police have the same regard for my life as the aforementioned groups do, and treat me accordingly. there can be no surprise when I refuse to be a mere target in the crossfire and become an active participant. Anybody sending rounds in my direction should expect return fire.

[Anti Federalist]

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.


This is the core issue. As police are increasingly militarized as a result of the "war on crime", "war on drugs", "war on terror", etc that has posed a danger to those the police now refer to as "civilians" rather than the citizens they are charged to protect. When the imperative is "officer safety" which excuses the incidental death or injury of a "civilian" as mere collateral damage in the greater good of keeping the police safe to fight the war, one can hardly be surprised that US "civilians" being well armed, and many military veterans themselves, get annoyed at playing the role of patsy.

I don't like criminals, and gangs or terrorists either, but when the police have the same regard for my life as the aforementioned groups do, and treat me accordingly. there can be no surprise when I refuse to be a mere target in the crossfire and become an active participant. Anybody sending rounds in my direction should expect return fire.

[Kylie]

This is the core issue. As police are increasingly militarized as a result of the "war on crime", "war on drugs", "war on terror", etc that has posed a danger to those the police now refer to as "civilians" rather than the citizens they are charged to protect. When the imperative is "officer safety" which excuses the incidental death or injury of a "civilian" as mere collateral damage in the greater good of keeping the police safe to fight the war, one can hardly be surprised that US "civilians" being well armed, and many military veterans themselves, get annoyed at playing the role of patsy.

I don't like criminals, and gangs or terrorists either, but when the police have the same regard for my life as the aforementioned groups do, and treat me accordingly. there can be no surprise when I refuse to be a mere target in the crossfire and become an active participant. Anybody sending rounds in my direction should expect return fire.



This ^

Like Pcosmar said, only in defense. That should include cops too.

[Mani]

AF's posts are important education. Every post I see is a factual case. I've looked at some other sites browsing and there are a lot of "cloudy" or "ambiguous" ones out there. Where it is difficult to know what was right and wrong and those are not posted. Those are debatable and if AF was posting those someone could make a case,he's just trying to find ways to blame cops and make them look bad.

But I don't see that at all. The ones he posts all seem to me like horrific injustices, and I believe those injustices SHOULD be broadcast and told to as many people as possible.

AF is waking up people and I prefer the sifting he goes through to find us the truly terrible stories that we as citizens have a right to know. The shocking thing is that THERE ARE SO MANY! THAT IS NOT HIS FAULT! Just because the MSM is keeping them as local stories and ignoring them doesn't mean we should ignore them as well.

By AF's persistence we start to realize These are NOT isolated one in a million incidents but appear to be more common and possibly a dangerous trend of our country becoming closer and closer to a police state.

One incident in one local town without much more than a local write up seems like there isn't a problem. but when it is compiled and you see it happen in 1000 towns day after day it is no longer ISOLATED but part of a LARGER PROBLEM.

I knew there were some bad things out there but only after seeing these factual but horrific stories time and again did I WAKE UP! I only have AF to thank for that. It not fun and I'm not happy I've come to the realization that I have, ignorance is bliss, but especially being a RP guy, we do appreciate the truth, even when it is not pretty.


I'm not a "cop hater" and I'm not interested to read 500 posts of ripping on cops and regardless of AF's view of them, these are REAL Events and not him finding some ambiguous scenario that COULD make a cop look bad.
Please continue the EDUCATION of factual stories.

[Anti Federalist]

Sensationalist bump

[AFPVet]

Sensationalist bump

Sensational :D

[Pericles]

Splendiferous:D