'Handcuffed by policy': Fire crews watch man die

[Anti Federalist]

Heroes...



'Handcuffed by policy': Fire crews watch man die

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43233984/ns/us_news-life

SAN FRANCISCO — Fire crews and police could only watch after a man waded into San Francisco Bay, stood up to his neck and waited. They wanted to do something, but a policy tied to earlier budget cuts strictly forbade them from trying to save the 50-year-old, officials said.

A witness Mundane finally pulled the apparently suicidal man's lifeless body from the 54-degree water.

The San Jose Mercury News reported that the man, later identified as Raymond Zack, spent nearly an hour in the water before he drowned.

First responders and about 75 people watched the incident on Monday from a beach in Alameda, a city of about 75,000 people across from San Francisco.Witnesses included Amy Gahran, a reporter who photographed the scene from the beach for Oakland Local.

Interim Alameda Fire Chief Mike D'Orazi said that due to 2009 budget cuts his crews did not have the training or cold-water gear to go into the water.

"The incident yesterday was deeply regrettable," he said Tuesday. "But I can also see it from our firefighters' perspective. They're standing there wanting to do something, but they are handcuffed by policy at that point."

But Tuesday night, after hearing from angry residents at a City Council meeting, the city promised to spend up to $40,000 to certify 16 firefighters in land-based water rescues, KGO-TV reported.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

People who do a job they're paid for are not heroes.

A hero would have said "fuck this bullshit" and jumped in after the guy (i.e. gone above and beyond the call). What's a life worth?

[Travlyr]

I'm sure that if it was a fellow policeman or fireman, then they would have thrown their "concerns" out the window and saved one of their own.

[Anti Federalist]

People who do a job they're paid for are not heroes.

A hero would have said "fuck this bullshit" and jumped in after the guy (i.e. gone above and beyond the call). What's a life worth?

Exactly.

The very definition of a hero is one who does the extraordinary to help or save their fellow man, with no regard to their own well being or safety,

[specsaregood]

People who do a job they're paid for are not heroes.

A hero would have said "fuck this bullshit" and jumped in after the guy (i.e. gone above and beyond the call). What's a life worth?

It hasn't been mentioned in the article I've seen, but i'm wondering if the cops and firefighters stopped the other mundanes watching from attempting a rescue on their own. I'd like to say that I would have tried if i had been there.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Sounds like freedom to me. You will not be protected from yourself unless you pay first responders or allow first responders to plunder you.

Maybe they should have saved him to collect funeral costs at gun point and then turn him loose so he could commit a fully paid for suicide.

[Pericles]

Pity there is no policy that handcuffs them from shooting mundanes and dogs.

[RideTheDirt]

Pity there is no policy that handcuffs them from shooting mundanes and dogs.
this

[flightlesskiwi]

From the article
"He was engaged in a deliberate act of taking his own life," Lynch told the Mercury News. "We did not know whether he was violent, whether drugs were involved. It's not a situation of a typical rescue." Safety first????

[Golding]

This is the story of California as a whole. Everything in the state is handcuffed by policy. I think the entire story is terribly symbolic of the state in general - people who mean well just watching the state drown because they're sure the legislators know what they're doing.

[heavenlyboy34]

Pity there is no policy that handcuffs them from shooting mundanes and dogs.
+a zillion

[BlackTerrel]

People who do a job they're paid for are not heroes.

A hero would have said "fuck this bullshit" and jumped in after the guy (i.e. gone above and beyond the call). What's a life worth?

What's a life worth of someone who wants to die? You want to die go ahead - don't need or want saving.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

What's a life worth of someone who wants to die? You want to die go ahead - don't need or want saving.

if someone really wants to die, I mean really, they don't do it in public. Personally, I don't care if you want to commit suicide. If I'm there I'll do what I can to stop you. The only exception I might have is someone who's a vegetable on life support or in a hell of a lot of incurable pain.

Every situation is different. To have a rule book, whether imposed by a government or political philosophy, on when to save someone's life or not show's a complete lack of personal responsibility and humanity.

What I've learned in my experience with depression and people wanting to kill themselves is that if it gets to that point where they are holding the knife or gun, what have you, there has already been a massive failure of community. Yes, a hero risks their lives for others when maybe they shouldn't, but a great person gives their life day after day to someone who doesn't deserve it.

[BlackTerrel]

That's not how I look at it all. Your life sucks so bad and you want to kill yourself then end it and let me get on with my day. We have enough real stuff to deal with than drama queens who want attention.

At least he's not harming others like those Columbine kids or the VA Tech asshole. Just end it and be fast about it.

And yes I'm a cold hearted bastard.

[Anti Federalist]

That's not how I look at it all. Your life sucks so bad and you want to kill yourself then end it and let me get on with my day. We have enough real stuff to deal with than drama queens who want attention.

At least he's not harming others like those Columbine kids or the VA Tech asshole. Just end it and be fast about it.

And yes I'm a cold hearted bastard.

As a self professed Christian, what would Christ say of that remark?

[Anti Federalist]

It hasn't been mentioned in the article I've seen, but i'm wondering if the cops and firefighters stopped the other mundanes watching from attempting a rescue on their own. I'd like to say that I would have tried if i had been there.

That's usually the case.

[amy31416]

As a self professed Christian, what would Christ say of that remark?

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9495/1262374845371.jpg

Seriously though, who here wouldn't try to help the suicidal guy out (aside from BT), regardless of training? I think I would.

[Anti Federalist]

Seriously though, who here wouldn't try to help the suicidal guy out (aside from BT), regardless of training? I think I would.

I already have, on a few occasions.

I think liberty folks in general have a higher regard for their fellow man, in spite of all our bitching and sheeple remarks, than most other people.

If we didn't, why bother?

Get in the system, make a pile, fuck as many people as needed to do so, and get out, in order to waste your days away on some beach or playing golf.

Why give a shit that humanity is heading toward global tyranny? I'll get mine.

[aGameOfThrones]

The Myth of Police Protection (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?228509-The-Myth-of-Police-Protection&highlight=Myth+police+protection)

[amy31416]

I already have, on a few occasions.

I think liberty folks in general have a higher regard for their fellow man, in spite of all our bitching and sheeple remarks, than most other people.

If we didn't, why bother?

Get in the system, make a pile, fuck as many people as needed to do so, and get out, in order to waste your days away on some beach or playing golf.

Why give a shit that humanity is heading toward global tyranny? I'll get mine.

I think you're right. The only example to the contrary that I can think of in recent times is when QH4 (or whatever his screen name is) was pretty callous about the Giffords shooting.

My only exception might be if someone like Cheney wanted to off himself. But even then...

[MelissaWV]

Seriously though, who here wouldn't try to help the suicidal guy out (aside from BT), regardless of training? I think I would.

Not sure that I'd leap in, but the cool water combined with various medical issues would not have made that wise. By the time I had gotten out to the guy, there is no guarantee of lucidity on his part or massive strength on mine. It's likely it would have been two drowned.

However, here's the thing... the folks standing on that shore in uniforms do have equipment. They don't have rescue training particular to water rescues? Okay, fine, let's pretend I buy that. Do you have CPR training? Could you get a rope around the guy and pull him to shore and try to get him back? He was just standing there at first according to the reports. There is really no one nearby with a boat, or rope, or something that could have improvised a float board? I find that improbable.

As to BT, I know what you mean, yet I can't really sympathize. This guy probably did have a whole lot of mental issues. He probably thought the whole world was against him. He probably thought that people wouldn't piss on him to put him out if he were on fire. He probably had lost all faith in his fellow man.

Kudos to you and the cops for fleshing out that paranoia for him.

[flightlesskiwi]

I think liberty folks in general have a higher regard for their fellow man, in spite of all our bitching and sheeple remarks, than most other people.

this is true. people see us as arrogant and stubborn and miss the bigger picture: we have a deep concern about, not only ourselves, but everyone. i'm finding the people that abhor my ideology are wrapped up in self gratification and are good (at least in their own minds) at disguising their own selfishness as concern for others. most of the people i've talked to can only defend their ideas based on 1. they are theirs or 2. because it's part of their tradition (indoctrination) or both.

a lot of people absolutely refuse to acknowledge any way of thinking other than their own and stay wrapped up in the safety of their ideals... the only time i've seen those who are wrapped up acknowledge the liberty movement is just to say those who believe in and defend liberty are bat sh*t crazy.

this isn't true within the liberty movement. the liberty movement contains free, knowledgeable, and principled people who are willing to look at all sides of an issue, weigh facts and history, sprinkle in some experience and then make a conscious, deliberate conclusion. and when we're wrong, we don't wrap our blanket of ideals tight around us and hide, we admit the error, correct it and move on. at least most of the time, anyway. ;)

ultimately, we just want all people to have the ability to make choices sans the State forcing us to follow State mandates. i don't understand how that doesn't sound marvelous, but to a lot of people it doesn't. people want mommy to hold all of our hands-- but they want mommy to hold our hands in the way they (have been indoctrinated to) see fit.

[flightlesskiwi]

apologies for jacking the thread.

[pcosmar]

I can not comprehend.
How can you observe a human in distress and do nothing.

I can understand being physically prevented from doing so, or even failure while trying.
But to refuse to even attempt, to refuse to try.

I can not comprehend.
:(

[ronpaulitician]

The solution to this is money.

[olehounddog]

Seems they forgot about the "Duty to Act".

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

As a self professed Christian, what would Christ say of that remark?

I don't think it's cold hearted to believe you can't save someone who does not want to be saved. Salvation is not coerced. Duty ends at offering assistance and prayer.

[iGGz]

So was there anything dangerous about this situation, like something I don't know about the SF Bay? I mean 54 degree water seems pretty warm coming from the lakes I'm used to. They didn't save him in neck deep water? NECK DEEP! Was he like 20 ft out? I guess I'm just really confused. Is there something I'm missing here?

[iGGz]

This guy probably did have a whole lot of mental issues. He probably thought the whole world was against him. He probably thought that people wouldn't piss on him to put him out if he were on fire. He probably had lost all faith in his fellow man.

Doesn't really sound like mental issues when it's the truth

[MelissaWV]

So was there anything dangerous about this situation, like something I don't know about the SF Bay? I mean 54 degree water seems pretty warm coming from the Colorado lakes I'm used to. They didn't save him in neck deep water? NECK DEEP! Was he like 20 ft out? I guess I'm just really confused. Is there something I'm missing here?

Apparently, training is required, or they can't attempt to rescue him.

[BlackTerrel]

As a self professed Christian, what would Christ say of that remark?

I don't believe Christ is in to forcing people to do what they don't want.

So you're for forcing someone who is trying to drown themselves out of the water but against forcing someone to wear a seatbelt or stop smoking?

The guy is doing nothing illegal. Why would you force him out of the water?

[Nate-ForLiberty]

I don't believe Christ is in to forcing people to do what they don't want.

So you're for forcing someone who is trying to drown themselves out of the water but against forcing someone to wear a seatbelt or stop smoking?

The guy is doing nothing illegal. Why would you force him out of the water?

That argument doesn't really work. Being against GOVERNMENT force to make someone quit smoking or wear a seatbelt is not even close to the same thing as being for a PERSONAL choice on a certain situation.

If I personally want you to stop smoking, I may steal your cigarettes, bombard you with anti-smoking propaganda, stay on your case day and night, follow you around and grab cigarettes out of your hand. None of these actions use government force, but you could absolutely have me arrested for harassment, and you would be justified. So would going to jail and having a criminal record be worth the vain attempt to get you to stop smoking? Of course not.

If I see someone emotionally distraught putting their life in danger, I would most definitely intercede, despite the fact that this person could turn on me. Is it worth potentially losing my life in order to save another life, even if that person doesn't see their own value? I think so. That is a personal choice, not government coercion.

*It's twisted to use a socio-political philosophy to justify personal apathy toward other human beings. Government intervention should be limited if not eradicated. Personal interaction and generosity should be extremely increased.

[BlackTerrel]

If someone was drowning I would try to help. If they did it on purpose that is their own choice.

Would you use force to pull this man out of the water if he wanted to stay?

[Nate-ForLiberty]

If someone was drowning I would try to help. If they did it on purpose that is their own choice.

Would you use force to pull this man out of the water if he wanted to stay?

yes. If your daughter wanted to stay in that water, would you let her?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Government intervention should be limited if not eradicated. Personal interaction and generosity should be extremely increased.

I fully support this position.


yes. If your daughter wanted to stay in that water, would you let her?

I do believe someone who intervened to save their own daughter, who was subsequently sued by their own daughter and lost at trial, would be justly rewarded.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

I fully support this position.



I do believe someone who intervened to save their own daughter, who was subsequently sued by their own daughter and lost at trial, would be justly rewarded.

So you are saying it wouldn't matter to you who the person in the water is. If they want to die, regardless of their reason, you would not intervene. Correct?

For the people that support letting them die, how many of you have faced someone who was suicidal?

[Anti Federalist]

WRT to the Jack Kevorkian thread, so the state did the right thing by letting this man die?

Should the state have arrested anybody that tried to assist?

[Pericles]

WRT to the Jack Kevorkian thread, so the state did the right thing by letting this man die?

Should the state have arrested anybody that tried to assist?

From my point of view:

(A) off yourself is OK
(B) ask someone else to off you requires a higher standard of showing voluntary decision uncoerced
(C) somebody else does not get to decide for you, other than medical directive not to take certain measures

[S.Shorland]

People should have loudly started taking bets on how long he would last.Might have got him mad enough to come in and fight.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Listen the so-called "well compensated HEROES" have to get their pension funding squared away before saving someone... the last paragraph hits the sweet spot.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-03-16/bay-area/28693612_1_pension-fund-pension-benefits-budget-woes


Are you a fan of horror movies? Save the price of a ticket and read "An Assessment of San Francisco's Unfunded Pension and Retiree Health Care Liabilities" instead. (Trust us, the mind-numbingly boring title belies the fright within.)

San Francisco now owes $4.476 billion in pensions to its employees but only has the money to pay roughly three-quarters of that cost. Every family in the city would have to pay $35,000 apiece to make up the difference.

Even if the pension fund grows by an optimistic 7.75 percent every year, there's only a one-third chance the city will be able to pay the promised pension benefits.
http://articles.sfgate.com/images/pixel.gif
http://articles.sfgate.com/images/pixel.gif

The city also owes $4.364 billion in health care benefits and has hardly saved anything for it. That figure will grow to $9.5 billion by 2028.

The city is now spending $514 million every year on pension and retiree health costs, and that figure will hit $1 billion within five years. That's more than the budgets for the Police Department, Fire Department, Sheriff's Department, district attorney's office, and adult and juvenile probation departments combined.
The numbers come courtesy of a study by Joe Nation, a former assemblyman who's now a professor of public policy at Stanford and is advocating for pension reform. He was paid about $12,000 to conduct the study by venture capitalist Michael Moritz, a financial backer of Public Defender Jeff Adachi's pension and health reform ballot measures.
Adachi tells us he wanted up-to-date numbers as he crafts a new measure for November's ballot after his first try failed last year. He said many of the findings are "shocking."
His new ballot measure is expected to mandate much higher pension and health care contributions from employees.
Nathan Ballard, spokesman for the coalition of city officials, labor representatives and business folks that's crafting its own November measure, said his group's projections are accurate and more conservative than the industry standard.

"This is yet another billionaire-funded campaign tactic from Jeff Adachi," Ballard said.
- Heather Knight

More budget woes: It won't balance the city's budget given the current $380 million deficit, but not overpaying Fire Department employees would be a start.
The city paid $346,000 more than it had to during the past fiscal year "due to administrative errors and unofficial pay practices," according to an audit the city controller released Tuesday.

[BlackTerrel]

I look at it like this: life is short and I have very little patience for idiots.

Guy was an adult and we take responsibility for our actions. If people jumped in after that guy they may have died as well. And for what? For some asshole who took the easy/selfish was out and took his own life?

I remember hearing a story a couple years ago in the Bay Area where some guy for hours threatened to jump off the bay bridge. Backed up traffic for hours, fucked up the commute for hundreds of thousands of people. Meanwhile there was an old guy stuck in his car who had a heart attack and couldn't get the treatment he needed because there were cars on all sides of him (if I remember correctly in this case the heart attack guy died). And for what? Some selfish guy who wanted attention?

Life is a gift. If people want to take their own lives it's on them - they shouldn't take others down with them. And it is a selfish move that punishes friends/family.

[AFPVet]

I look at it like this: life is short and I have very little patience for idiots.

Guy was an adult and we take responsibility for our actions. If people jumped in after that guy they may have died as well. And for what? For some asshole who took the easy/selfish was out and took his own life?

I remember hearing a story a couple years ago in the Bay Area where some guy for hours threatened to jump off the bay bridge. Backed up traffic for hours, fucked up the commute for hundreds of thousands of people. Meanwhile there was an old guy stuck in his car who had a heart attack and couldn't get the treatment he needed because there were cars on all sides of him (if I remember correctly in this case the heart attack guy died). And for what? Some selfish guy who wanted attention?

Life is a gift. If people want to take their own lives it's on them - they shouldn't take others down with them. And it is a selfish move that punishes friends/family.

Exactly... if people of sound mind do not want to continue life, that should be their choice. As you have said, interfering can sometimes cause unintentional loss of life.

[TheNcredibleEgg]

I look at it like this: life is short and I have very little patience for idiots.

Guy was an adult and we take responsibility for our actions. If people jumped in after that guy they may have died as well. And for what? For some asshole who took the easy/selfish was out and took his own life?

I remember hearing a story a couple years ago in the Bay Area where some guy for hours threatened to jump off the bay bridge. Backed up traffic for hours, fucked up the commute for hundreds of thousands of people. Meanwhile there was an old guy stuck in his car who had a heart attack and couldn't get the treatment he needed because there were cars on all sides of him (if I remember correctly in this case the heart attack guy died). And for what? Some selfish guy who wanted attention?

Life is a gift. If people want to take their own lives it's on them - they shouldn't take others down with them. And it is a selfish move that punishes friends/family.

Problem is:

His suicide was incidental to the story. The police and fireman would not have attempted to save a real drowning victim either. (At least based on my read of the story.) It just says bureaucratic rules prevented them from attempting to save a drowning victim.

Nor would they even swim out to get the body after it was over. An off-duty nurse swam out and recovered the body.

[CaliforniaMom]

This reminds me of the time the firefighters got scared and abandoned the whole town of Green Valley Lake, California to the slide fire a few years ago. In that fire my family lost the log cabin that had been built by hand by my grandfather and great grandfather. It was burnt to the ground.... nothing left but a few cast-iron pans and burnt floor tiles.

[BlackTerrel]

Problem is:

His suicide was incidental to the story. The police and fireman would not have attempted to save a real drowning victim either. (At least based on my read of the story.) It just says bureaucratic rules prevented them from attempting to save a drowning victim.

Nor would they even swim out to get the body after it was over. An off-duty nurse swam out and recovered the body.

Well it's relevant in the reaction to the story.

We've had a number of posters here criticize the firefighters for not saying "fuck regulations, I'm going to risk my life to save this guy"

I'd be more inclined to agree with that point of view if it wasn't someone who actually wanted to die.