New car purchases starting in June will have a mandatory black box installed

[mconder]

New car purchases starting in June will have a mandatory black box installed (http://www.examiner.com/finance-examiner-in-national/new-car-purchases-starting-june-will-have-a-mandatory-black-box-installed)

Anyone have a problem with this?

[Krugerrand]

I'm all for having them installed - on police cars and other public vehicles. Then, I'd like that information made publicly available.

[tpreitzel]

Ever heard of computer hacking? ;) Actually, your question should be "who doesn't have a problem with this invasion of privacy?". I wonder why the people in general are absolutely beginning to HATE government? Some constitutional government is needed, but abuses of constitutional protections are driving many people over a cliff toward insanity.

[acptulsa]

...but abuses of constitutional protections are driving many people over a cliff toward insanity.

Wasn't it nice of them to tell us all that we'd have to be crazy to vote for Ron Paul before they really got serious about driving us all crazy? No wonder we're doing better every day.

[tpreitzel]

Wasn't it nice of them to tell us all that we'd have to be crazy to vote for Ron Paul before they really got serious about driving us all crazy? No wonder we're doing better every day.

Encouraging news for 2012 ... ;)

[jtstellar]

hmm.. is this breaking news? and is it national.. june of this year will be rather rushed for the implementation of a federal law of this scale on every single car in this nation

[acptulsa]

hmm.. is this breaking news? and is it national.. june of this year will be rather rushed for the implementation of a federal law of this scale on every single car in this nation

One the one hand, they don't care. The Eighties and the American Motors Corporation are proof enough that if you don't have enough to make the proper campaign contributions, you don't get to compete. Even if you are a major pioneer in four wheel drive autos for decent mileage and good snow traction.

Some small dog in the market is in a sling over this. But even though it's failing on so many levels, General (more-or-less-ex Government) Motors isn't one of them. They've been bragging about how easy they make it for Mommy Government to track you for years now.

[jrskblx125]

Yah. "whats the problem?" i kno the problem my computer tells me when you pull over to drop a deuce!

[aGameOfThrones]

The installation and use of these black boxes can have infinite possibilities for local, state, and federal governments to monitor and record data for a number of other revenue programs that are currently under consideration. *In March, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) issued a proposal to institute a tax on mileage to help pay for the federal budget deficit. *Additionally, local cities and counties can download information from these black boxes, and they can be used to issue driving citations after the fact in the case of speeding or not wearing a seat belt.

How thoughtful.

[lynnf]

it's the trend that's the problem, if I read the article right. it's one step closer to continuous monitoring. the article seems to say that for right now, it's only for data in the few seconds before an accident which would likely mean just a short time. but we know how "mission creep" goes - this WILL be extended in the future to eventually record everything!

yeah, I have a problem with this.

[Yieu]

It would be funny if they caused new car sales to drop because of this. Then they would probably bail out the auto companies instead of removing the device, not realizing what the real problem is. The standard seems to be to treat the symptoms, not the cause.

[fisharmor]

What's the penalty for disabling it?
What's the penalty for running an after-market service in disabling it?

[acptulsa]

It would be funny if they caused new car sales to drop because of this. Then they would probably bail out the auto companies instead of removing the device, not realizing what the real problem is.

They'll know what the real problem is. And if worst comes to worst, they'll try to attack the old car restoration hobby just to ensure existing cars get old and die. They've had their sights set on this interesting and historic hobby for years. And considering that a 1963 Plymouth Belvedere wagon seats more, and weighs less, than a modern minivan, well, you can't blame them for wanting to eliminate all the evidence of their determination to ensure that their mandated form of 'progress' is anything but.

[angelatc]

Mission creep my butt. It is planned incrementalism. Check out the source article here (http://dvice.com/archives/2011/05/feds-to-require.php) and you'll see that almost every car built since the early 90's already has one of these boxes.

They're just tweaking the laws to expand the list of people who are allowed to access the data.

[ChaosControl]

I'd rip the piece of **** out.
Study mechanics and build my own car. I'm sick of this 1984 B.S.

[pcosmar]

What's the penalty for disabling it?
What's the penalty for running an after-market service in disabling it?

What is the law concerning Catalytic Converters?

Removing the Converter

In short: DON'T. If your car came with a catalytic converter you're looking at fines of up to $10,000 for removing it. Sort of. Removing the catalytic converter is illegal, but getting caught without one isn't--most states will simply suspend your smog certification until you get a new one installed.
Read more: Catalytic Converter Laws | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_7194804_catalytic-converter-laws.html#ixzz1Nwerz7zg


I would expect even more laws to be written concerning civilian surveillance devices.

[JWZguy]

I've never owned a car that was made after I was born. This is one of the reasons.

[sailingaway]

Well....

Buying a car at one year old is really a better deal anyhow. And after a year, we just need someone else in the White House.

[sailingaway]

How thoughtful.

I wonder if that can be argued to be a violation of both fourth and fifth amendments.....

[sailingaway]

What's the penalty for running an after-market service in disabling it?

Definite market opportunity there.

[tangent4ronpaul]

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/secret-patriot-act/

Indeed, Hinnen allowed himself an out in his March testimony, saying that the business-record provision “also” enabled “important and highly sensitive intelligence collection operations” to take place. Wheeler speculates those operations include “using geolocation data from cellphones to collect information on the whereabouts of Americans” — something our sister blog Threat Level has reported on extensively. It’s worth noting that Wyden is pushing a bill providing greater privacy protections for geolocation info.

Also look up pole cams....

[Napoleon's Shadow]

What's the penalty for disabling it?
What's the penalty for running an after-market service in disabling it?Ever heard of the DMCA? :confused: :(

[TruckinMike]

//

[speciallyblend]

in colorado you get the option to use the black box for cannabis sativa storage:)

[falconplayer11]

The day will soon come when the government can download information about your driving wirelessly and after-the-fact.

[doodle]

Doubt Obama's handlers and puppet master will stop till a complete police state is realized.

Like the airport scanner machines, Obama cell phone alerts and this latest latest freedom effort, follow the old money trails. Bush was prosecuting Obama's handler lobbies for espionage just few years after Iraq. As bad as Bush was, he could end up being way batter than Obama.


Israel-Based Developer of Black Box Software Gets $28 Million in Funding

Publication:
Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News
By Christina Dyrness, The News & Observer, Raleigh, N.C. Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News

Feb. 16--Mutek Solutions, which acquired Raleigh Group International a year ago, has received $28 million in venture capital from a number of sources, including Intel.

The Israel-based company, which makes Black Box software to monitor systems and highlight problems, will use the money to accelerate research and development of different versions of the product and build up its sales firepower.

"We're not going to spend it unwisely," said Larry Heathcote, vice president of marketing for Mutek. "We'll use it for research and development and sales and …

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-70495524.html

On the plus side, this could cut the unemployment rate in mideast.

[falconplayer11]

It would be funny if they caused new car sales to drop because of this. Then they would probably bail out the auto companies instead of removing the device, not realizing what the real problem is. The standard seems to be to treat the symptoms, not the cause.


Hah!

[dejavu22]

Sounds like an interesting business to start... disabling black boxes on new cars... the only problem is that i bet they will add a clause where at the very least it will void the warranty on the car let alone federal penalties.

[argonath]

Looks like my article was a year too early. :)

[Philhelm]

Sounds like an interesting business to start... disabling black boxes on new cars... the only problem is that i bet they will add a clause where at the very least it will void the warranty on the car let alone federal penalties.

I was thinking felony.

[Brian4Liberty]

Anyone have a problem with this?

Yes. This is a device that does not benefit the consumer in any way. It is extraneous, and not required for the proper functioning of the vehicle.

Obviously, it benefits the government (tickets, fines, tracking) and the auto manufacturers (they can put the blame on drivers, aids in diagnosing manufacturing or design problems).


I wonder if that can be argued to be a violation of both fourth and fifth amendments.....

Maybe, and how about private property rights?


...the only problem is that i bet they will add a clause where at the very least it will void the warranty on the car let alone federal penalties.

Yeah, it's pretty standard that is voids warranties.

[Cabal]

I'm all for having them installed - on police cars and other public vehicles. Then, I'd like that information made publicly available.

Who do you think would be paying for them?

[Titus]

If it wouldn't be an issue with melting, we should put a label on our cars that says "We do not consent to the police using this. We had no choice to select this option if we wanted a new car. Just because you have the ability to search does not mean we lack an expectation of privacy. We are asserting our expectation of privacy unless waived in writing, the owner's death, or this vehicle is reported stolen. Thank you."

[Texan4Life]

So I wonder if the black box is removed/disable does it cause the check engine light to come on? Cars with the CEL light on wont pass inspection in many states/counties.

[Anti Federalist]

So I wonder if the black box is removed/disable does it cause the check engine light to come on? Cars with the CEL light on wont pass inspection in many states/counties.

In most cases it won't even run.

It is wired directly into the ECM system.

Not only will you get a MIL on the dash, but it won't even crank or run.

The oldest vehicle I have is a 1999, and you should have seen the headache I had just to disable the security system.

[Anti Federalist]

Get 'em while you can.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGCnvNL45NO81iNQlq663bnVmMBbj9P 0qXm7qOtQfivTy69BAfwiNwM-nq

[Lucille]

So basically, we have to buy everything used and old so we can avoid being surveilled by our cars and appliances. That's one way to save money.

This metastasizing surveillance state is creeping me out and pissing me off! (BIRM)

[Texan4Life]

here is another more detailed article

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/08/22/edr_concerns/index.html

seems like they have been around for awhile mostly for diagnostic purposes, but now .gov wants to increase what they record and be given access to the data.

[tfurrh]

Dated thread. Did this really happen?

[Lucille]

From T4L's link:


In 2005, it was estimated that about 64 percent of passenger cars on the market came equipped from the factory with "Event Data Recorders" that kept a computer record of various things a driver was doing in the moments just before and after a serious impact. The number today is certainly much higher and the devices are becoming more advanced.
[...]
How do I know if my car has an Event Data Recorder?

Check your owner's manual. Look in the index for "Event Data Recorder." Several states already require car manufacturers to disclose the use of EDRs in the manual. Toyota, Ford and GM all disclose the presence of EDR systems in vehicle owners' manuals and detail exactly what data is recorded and stored by them.
[...]
How can I remove or disable the EDR?

You can't. The data produced come from various vehicle sensors, such as the anti-lock brakes and electronic stability control. The data recording function is so thoroughly integrated into a car's electronics that there is no way to completely disable it without also disabling safety features in a way that would violate federal law.
[...]
Ford, GM and Toyota say that they have always treated the data as the car owner's property and that they would never download data from an individual's car without their permission or a court order requiring them to do so.

But the carmakers' policy on the issue wouldn't stop police who may have their own devices to extract the data. That's why those state laws are still important.

[Anti Federalist]

So basically, we have to buy everything used and old so we can avoid being surveilled by our cars and appliances. That's one way to save money.

This metastasizing surveillance state is creeping me out and pissing me off! (BIRM)

Yes.

The embedded technology is so tightly designed into the very core operating system of a new car, washer, refrigerator, flat screen TV or what have you, that there is no way to effectively "disable" the surveillance/logging/monitoring features.

That is how the system will get cameras and microphones into every room of your home, in the appliances, that will be linked in to the "smart grid".

[Texan4Life]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder

[Anti Federalist]

Dated thread. Did this really happen?

Yes.

[Czolgosz]

Revolution is long overdue.

[tfurrh]

Get 'em while you can.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGCnvNL45NO81iNQlq663bnVmMBbj9P 0qXm7qOtQfivTy69BAfwiNwM-nq

I've never retired the Ramcharger........and now I never will! Muahahahaha!

[amonasro]

How is the information in these boxes accessed?

[Lucille]

How is the information in these boxes accessed?


Who can gain access to this data?

From a technical standpoint, law enforcement and professional investigators can download data from Ford and General Motors vehicles, said Hasseeb Ghumman, an accident reconstruction engineer with Accident Reconstruction Plus, a company based in New York and Georgia.

Systems used by other manufacturers, such as Toyota, can only be accessed by the manufacturer, he said.

From the legal standpoint, several states have laws saying that a car's owner or lessee (the "owner" of a leased car) owns the data contained in the car's EDR.

Ford, GM and Toyota say that they have always treated the data as the car owner's property and that they would never download data from an individual's car without their permission or a court order requiring them to do so.

But the carmakers' policy on the issue wouldn't stop police who may have their own devices to extract the data. That's why those state laws are still important.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/08/22/edr_concerns/index.html

[Anti Federalist]

How is the information in these boxes accessed?

Through the OBDII diagnostic port or the module itself.

[Anti Federalist]

http://www.crashforensics.com/automobiledatarecorders.cfm

Crash Forensics has the equipment to download crash information for automobile Event Data Recorders (EDR). We provide
complete EDR data analysis service as part of a crash reconstruction. Link to our EDR downloading and analysis expert.


A modern passenger vehicle has many sensors that report all kinds of information to small computers called Electronic Control Modules (ECM). These ECMs process the sensor information and use it to make decisions about things like engine fuel management, antilock brake system activation, cruise control management, climate control management, airbag system deployment, and even speed-controlled stereo volume. These ECMs are also responsible for running diagnostics, for setting Diagnostic Fault Codes (DTC) if problems are detected, and for turning on dashboard warning lamps called Malfunction Indicator Lamps (MIL) if a fault occurs. These ECMs go by different names depending on the vehicle manufacturer, the system they control, and more than anything who is talking about them. Some examples are a Powertrain Control Module (PCM), a Body Control Module (BCM), an Engine Control Module (ECM), and an Airbag Control Module (ACM).

Airbag Module - Usually Mounted Under
Front Passenger Seat or Center Console


ECM's have been used in vehicles for more than 30 years but became much more prevalent in the mid-1980's when most vehicles started using electronic fuel injection systems. In 1996, regulations required all vehicles to comply with the Onboard Diagnostic II (OBD II) Standard. This OBD II Standard required that all new vehicles sold in the U.S. have certain sensor and diagnostic information available in a standard format, through a standard Diagnostic Link Connection (DLC). This DLC can be found on an OBD II vehicle at the base of the dashboard near the steering column. The DLC connection is also commonly referred to as the OBD II connection or by the term previously used ALDL (Assembly Line Data Link). The most recent of these systems is called the CAN system (Controller Area Network). CAN vehicles began appearing in the early 2000's and are now standard. A CAN system vehicle has these ECM's all connected to a network much like any other computer network. This network not only allows the ECMs to "talk" to each other but also reduces the amount of wire in the vehicle while making it easier to add options like speed-controlled stereo volume.



Event Data Recorders


Some of these ECM are storing the sensor data received by the module when an acceleration measured by the ACMs accelerometer meets a certain threshold or when an airbag deployment occurs. Since the vehicle manufacturers have not been very forthcoming about the recording capabilities of their vehicles, it is not likely that anyone other than them could say with absolute certainty what any one vehicle may or may not record. Generally however, the devices that record crash data on passenger vehicles are the ACMs and PCMs. These ECMs, when equipped with an Event Data Recorder (EDR) function, are often referred to as a "Black Box." Although, these ECMs are not a "Black Box", in the true sense of the term, this descriptor helps simplify the explanation of this device. These ECMs with an EDR function historically have not provided large amounts of data recorded over long periods of time and often only provide crash acceleration data. However, some do store pre-crash data including Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) data for a period of five to twenty seconds before an impact.



What Vehicles Have This EDR Function?


It is reasonable to assume that most vehicles made since the start of this century more than likely have some ability to store crash data. However, many of the manufacturers have tried to keep this information to themselves for their own purposes. So, accessing much of the data can be problematic. What is probably more important than a comprehensive list, is a list of the vehicles that have accessible data. As of 2011, GM vehicles as old as 1994 have accessible data, Ford vehicles as old as 2001 have accessible data, Chrysler vehicles as old as 2005 have accessible data, Toyota and Lexis vehicles as old as 2006 have accessible data, as well as some Isuzu, Fiat, Mitsubishi, Scion, Sterling, and Suzuki vehicles. A regulation put in place in 2010 now prevents manufacturers from prohibiting access to this data and requires that they make equipment available to do so within six months of the production of a new vehicle. Since the list of vehicles with accessible data is rapidly changing, we have provided a link to a current list of vehicles with accessible data near the end of this page.



Additionally, many large trucks have an EDR function that is based on their Engine Control Module (ECM). These ECM-based EDRs are different, and John C. Glennon, Chartered has different equipment to extract this data. Click here to find out more about large truck EDR downloads.



How Are These Data Retrieved?


The only tool, other than what a manufacturer may have, for downloading data from an airbag module with an EDR function is Bosh Corporation's Crash Data Retrieval System (CDR). This system acts as an interface allowing a PC to be connected to the DLC or directly to the airbag module to read the data. Event Data is downloaded in code, and the CDR software converts this code into a graphical form that can easily be read.



If the vehicle's battery and wiring harness have not been damaged, the data can be extracted through the DLC with the CDR tool. If power to or communication with the ECM cannot be made due to vehicle damage, then the CDR tool can be hooked directly to the ECM. Certain precautions must be taken when powering damaged vehicles to prevent fire. Also, if the module is removed, stored data can be destroyed by improper handling. Only a qualified person should remove one of these ECMs.



What Can This Data Be Used For?


Crash reconstruction is the science of analyzing vehicle collisions using applied physics. A reconstruction analysis commonly relies on the study and interpretation of roadway and vehicle evidence and, when available, can also rely on the data collected from Event Data Recorders (EDRs). Data from EDRs can be very valuable evidence. However, this data is not a substitute for a crash reconstruction, but only used as evidence in a crash reconstruction analysis. A crash reconstruction may include any or all of the following: (1) the analysis of vehicle movements, (2) the analysis of vehicle speeds, (3) the analysis of vehicle impact angles, (4) the analysis of time-distance relationships of vehicles, etc.

We stress that EDR data cannot stand alone, and should only be used as a tool to analyze a crash, just as any other evidence such as skidmarks and vehicle damage would be used. We often find cavalier investigators presenting this data at face value with no understanding of where the data is coming from or how the crash dynamics can affect it. However, the data must be analyzed in conjunction with other evidence to ensure its reliability. A reconstructionist must properly analyze and have an understanding of what the vehicle dynamics were prior to the collision. Then he must determine whether the vehicle's pre-crash dynamics affected the recorded vehicle speed. He must also know that the vehicle speed data comes from a vehicle speed sensor (VSS) that effectively measures the rotation of the wheels and that wheel speed and vehicle speed are not always the same. For example, a vehicle that is rolling over with its tires off the ground, or sliding sideways, or braking hard, will have a wheel speed that is different than its forward speed. These factors have to be taken into consideration to correctly analyze the data.

[puppetmaster]

hmm.. is this breaking news? and is it national.. june of this year will be rather rushed for the implementation of a federal law of this scale on every single car in this nation


hell it's probably already installed just not official

[Lucille]

I scanned the Orwellian "Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/s1813/text)" bill that this fresh hell is in. Lots of DHS mentions.

CBO: S. 1813, Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43147

(SEC. 40314 transfers Treasury funds to the SS "trust fund" for old-age pensions and disability. What that has to do with highways, I'm sure I can't say.)

[coastie]

Through the OBDII diagnostic port.

Glad I still have OBD-1, one of the greatest things to ever happen to fuel injection....Open-source tuning software with $~40 ebay/rad shak stuff and soldering skills on the OBD1 board in my car = fully accessible by laptop, no GPS crap or any of that, fully erasable "history",no speed limiter etc, fully read and adjust/tune fuel injection/ignition/A/F ratio, etc, etc. etc. Coolest -$50 dollars I ever spent on this car, and still use it to tune with a now bone stock engine. Almost 50mpg driving back and forth to school/wife to work,etc.;)

325 hp at the wheels with a Honda Civic Coupe1.6L SOHC Garrett GT ball bearing turbo@22 psi pump 93 0ctane, low 11 sec on street/slicks:eek:.... 40+ MPG hwy-never lower than 30 mpg, and that was really hammering her. I miss that engine...she's still in my garage waiting to be put back together minus turbo, water doesn't like to compress:eek::o:p. That was back when 93 was sub $2 a gallon...now it is well over $4 /gallon in my area, I could only imagine having to run it again.



These new cars are getting scarier and scarier by the day.




OBD2 and up sucks, really expensive to re-flash, really expensive tuning software, keeps a "speed log", has a speed limiter built in, newer ones have GPS, etc... most guys in my street/track racing days day just "down graded" back to OBD-1 if they had a '96 and up car with OBD2.

[Anti Federalist]

Tuners unite.

When you get to real engines with eight cylinders, let me know.

:p ;)



Glad I still have OBD-1, one of the greatest things to ever happen to fuel injection....Open-source tuning software with $~40 ebay/rad shak stuff and soldering skills on the OBD1 board in my car = fully accessible by laptop, no GPS crap or any of that, fully erasable "history",no speed limiter etc, fully read and adjust/tune fuel injection/ignition/A/F ratio, etc, etc. etc. Coolest -$50 dollars I ever spent on this car, and still use it to tune with a now bone stock engine. Almost 50mpg driving back and forth to school/wife to work,etc.;)

325 hp at the wheels with a Honda Civic Coupe1.6L SOHC Garrett GT ball bearing turbo@22 psi pump 93 0ctane, low 11 sec on street/slicks:eek:.... 40+ MPG hwy-never lower than 30 mpg, and that was really hammering her. I miss that engine...she's still in my garage waiting to be put back together minus turbo, water doesn't like to compress:eek::o:p. That was back when 93 was sub $2 a gallon...now it is well over $4 /gallon in my area, I could only imagine having to run it again.



These new cars are getting scarier and scarier by the day.




OBD2 and up sucks, really expensive to re-flash, really expensive tuning software, keeps a "speed log", has a speed limiter built in, newer ones have GPS, etc... most guys in my street/track racing days day just "down graded" back to OBD-1 if they had a '96 and up car with OBD2.

[RickyJ]

What's the penalty for disabling it?
What's the penalty for running an after-market service in disabling it?

There is no need to remove or disable it to make it useless to them. Just shield it and then they won't be downloading anything. I imagine they will make it a part of the OBD2 computer check that will make the check engine light come on if it is removed or disabled making it impossible to pass emissions tests without having it there, which would make it impossible to renew your vehicle registration, thus making it illegal to drive.

They push and they push to see how far they can go to make us more their slaves. It is time to push back. Enough is enough!

[puppetmaster]

My battery went dead in my car and I swapped it out. Went to get smog check and it failed to pass due to the battery swap. Had to drive it several weeks to get enough data for it to pass. They would only give me a two week temp permit to drive it. I don't drive this car that much so it took several weeks to get enough miles and info and a couple of those weeks I was breaking the law without their proper permits.....bs system.

Dumped that POS car anyhow

[RickyJ]

If the "black box" is really just the OBD2 computer than I think it is easy to erase all information on it with a scanner. I have one and have erased my data to clear a check engine light before.

[Anti Federalist]

If the "black box" is really just the OBD2 computer than I think it is easy to erase all information on it with a scanner. I have one and have erased my data to clear a check engine light before.

No, it's the "Event Data Recorder" not just the ECM.

They are tied in together, but not the same.

[Anti Federalist]

My battery went dead in my car and I swapped it out. Went to get smog check and it failed to pass due to the battery swap. Had to drive it several weeks to get enough data for it to pass. They would only give me a two week temp permit to drive it. I don't drive this car that much so it took several weeks to get enough miles and info and a couple of those weeks I was breaking the law without their proper permits.....bs system.

Dumped that POS car anyhow

Yes, something to keep in mind everybody.

If you disconnect the battery, you "dump" the ECM settings, but not the EDR data.

It takes between 50 to as much as 500 miles of driving and any number of start/stop cycles, for all the monitors to come fully back on line.

A good OBDII reader will show you the status of the monitors, if they are in "active" read mode or not.

If they are not "active" you will flunk an OBDII inspection.

[JasonC]

*sigh*

[PaulConventionWV]

it's the trend that's the problem, if I read the article right. it's one step closer to continuous monitoring. the article seems to say that for right now, it's only for data in the few seconds before an accident which would likely mean just a short time. but we know how "mission creep" goes - this WILL be extended in the future to eventually record everything!

yeah, I have a problem with this.

Or, just maybe, they're lying about its purposes. It wouldn't be the first time they said something and did something else. They said the same thing about the Patriot Act. It's only used in certain cases, but in reality, anyone is subject to exposure at any time because this thing is there. It won't just be used for accidents if the government thinks they have a reason to investigate you.

ETA: There is no doubt in my mind that this is connected to the "Cash 4 Clunkers" program.

[PaulConventionWV]

So I wonder if the black box is removed/disable does it cause the check engine light to come on? Cars with the CEL light on wont pass inspection in many states/counties.

My CEL has been on for over a year and I passed inspection. The CEL is on all the time in a lot of cars for no reason because there were some minor repairs made and it simply never turned off.

[Anti Federalist]

My CEL has been on for over a year and I passed inspection. The CEL is on all the time in a lot of cars for no reason because there were some minor repairs made and it simply never turned off.

I just looked over WV's inspection requirements, and it doesn't look like you have a emissions system test.

Many states, NH included, will plug your OBDII system into a diagnostic reader that is connected directly to the state DMV database.

A lighted MIL is an automatic failure.

Just clearing the code and turning the light off won't help you either, because when you do that you reboot all the monitors, and that will take possibly days of driving to bring back on line again, depending on the vehicle.

Keep in mind this is only for 1996 and newer vehicles.

[coastie]

Tuners unite.

When you get to real engines with eight cylinders, let me know.

:p ;)

Did you read my times?;) I aint scared, will use 1/4 of the fuel as you, and still drive it 300,000 miles plus with one initial full block build.;)

Never ran her on full slicks tho.... easy 10 sec Honduh. You may get me on the jump, but its over once she's spooled and the tires stop spinning:cool:


Besides...you know I've tuned 12 cyl and 18 cyl diesels on boats.:cool:

[RickyJ]

My CEL has been on for over a year and I passed inspection. The CEL is on all the time in a lot of cars for no reason because there were some minor repairs made and it simply never turned off.

How did you pass inspection with that light on? Where I live you can't pass inspection if the light is on no matter why it is on.

[Xhin]

"all new cars manufactured and sold in the United States"

Buy foreign!

[Anti Federalist]

"all new cars manufactured and sold in the United States"

Buy foreign!

"and sold" means foreign made as well.

[Flugel89]

Sounds like an interesting business to start... disabling black boxes on new cars... the only problem is that i bet they will add a clause where at the very least it will void the warranty on the car let alone federal penalties.

OH NO! Anything but the warranty!

I won't purchase a vehicle made after '95 at the latest, but if I were to buy a new vehicle the waranty would likely be voided in a few days.

Try installing this box on a '70 Datsun Z. Good fucking luck.

[DamianTV]

If they had their way, it would void your warranty for washing it with the wrong kind of soap.

[LibForestPaul]

"all new cars manufactured and sold in the United States"

Buy foreign!

"and sold" means foreign made as well.
Why do mundanes think they have a choice, especially RPF mundanes? I can understand others who believe government wants to help and Americans have choices, but hearing this on RPF is mind boggling.

MUNDANES = CATTLE, any questions? You are becoming property. Your flesh is starting to be serialized. You have no choices, because chattle are not given choices, they are herded.

[azxd]

"all new cars manufactured and sold in the United States"

Buy foreign!From the other thread on the same topic.

AFAIK, Subaru was the last major manufacturer to incorporate this technology, and they started doing it in 07/08 ... The technology has been in use for years, this just mandates that it be installed in all future vehicles.

The foreign built vehicles that might not have such technology will never pass EPA and safety standards, unless you spend thousands of dollars $$$$ or $$$$$ to meet the requirements.

[Liberty74]

Black boxes will enable the govt to tax you per mile and allow the 30K drones in the sky to tune into your car. Zap, your gone.

Seriously? This will only drive up the cost of vehicles like the mpg rules causing more people to go into debt and pay more interest which benefits the banks. I wonder who is behind the company that will benefit from such law. Wasn't Senator Dodd behind the TSA cancer screeners?

[Anti Federalist]

Did you read my times?;) I aint scared, will use 1/4 of the fuel as you, and still drive it 300,000 miles plus with one initial full block build.;)

Never ran her on full slicks tho.... easy 10 sec Honduh. You may get me on the jump, but its over once she's spooled and the tires stop spinning:cool:


Besides...you know I've tuned 12 cyl and 18 cyl diesels on boats.:cool:

LOL, hell yeah.

Just some friendly ball busting, I've no room to talk, a 1999 family truckster is my ride along with an old Jeep and an even older F150.

Tuning?

Did you ever run across any of the Johnson and Towers tuned 71 and 92 series Detroits?

I saw one they built, at the Miami boat show years ago, a 6-71 inline, that they claimed made 1120 hp. :eek:

[Icymudpuppy]

I love my 1955 International Pickup. Most reliable truck in the fleet. No electronics to fail.

[DamianTV]

Black boxes will enable the govt to tax you per mile and allow the 30K drones in the sky to tune into your car. Zap, your gone.

Seriously? This will only drive up the cost of vehicles like the mpg rules causing more people to go into debt and pay more interest which benefits the banks. I wonder who is behind the company that will benefit from such law. Wasn't Senator Dodd behind the TSA cancer screeners?

You wouldnt actually expect them to put in some way to screw you over at their expense, would you?

[dannno]

in colorado you get the option to use the black box for cannabis sativa storage:)

Actually I prefer to keep my indicas in a black box and the sativas in a white one.

[Lishy]

You know, I'd be curious about all the "How to remove black box from cars" videos on youtube once this happens.