As Libertarians, How Can We Possibly Send Our Kids to Public Schools?

[AGRP]

As someone who knows whats going on, I simply cannont send my future children to them.

[Travlyr]

Send them to this guy's classroom.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?295691

[specsaregood]

Send them to school to infect the other kids with new ideas.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I'm going to unschool my children if I ever have any, of course if they want to go to Government-School I'll try my best to lay the facts bare, but ultimately it is their choice.

[Kylie]

Send them to school to infect the other kids with new ideas.

This!

My boy had a very bad year last year, because he questioned authority. It took us having a sit down with his teachers, principals and school board to get them to understand that he is MY child, not theirs, and we will raise him in the way that WE feel is right. He's an incredibly bright kid, and when he questions your authority, maybe you ought to look at what you are trying to force him to do.

This year was a much better year. He had teachers that at least understood and appreciated where we stood on principles. One of them went as far as to tell he and us that he needs to just "play the game". I was pissed at first, but in the end, she is right. It is all just a game to teach you how to be a good taxpayer.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

This!

My boy had a very bad year last year, because he questioned authority. It took us having a sit down with his teachers, principals and school board to get them to understand that he is MY child, not theirs, and we will raise him in the way that WE feel is right. He's an incredibly bright kid, and when he questions your authority, maybe you ought to look at what you are trying to force him to do.

This year was a much better year. He had teachers that at least understood and appreciated where we stood on principles. One of them went as far as to tell he and us that he needs to just "play the game". I was pissed at first, but in the end, she is right. It is all just a game to teach you how to be a good taxpayer.

A 'game' with disasterous consequences.

[thedude]

Don't crucify me, but not all public schools are the same. I was taught by many teachers who bucked the trend, and I always asked questions. I was always encouraged to be a free thinker by my educators. Then at home I was further encouraged to do additional research to supplement what I had learned. If something seemed bias, my parents would fill in the gap and allow me to come to the conclusion. This never affected my grades and usually the teachers who bucked the trend were more successful. I think the parents need to do more research and find a school that is best at teaching their kids the way they would like. It involves moving to another district for the benefit of the child... it would be the same IF the federal gov't allowed the states to legislate and people moved to where they knew they could best live their lives.

[RabbitMan]

Don't crucify me, but not all public schools are the same.

Same as the poster above. There were undoubtedly times when bias entered the classroom, but nothing overt, extreme, or malicious. We were invited to question the subject at hand and present our own views, and not chastised for it. I can understand where the criticism comes from though. Regular classes at middle and high school are SO the 'check-the-box-and-move-along' affair. Forcing your kids to make the extra effort to take Advanced Placement, or similar classes, is how to fully take advantage of the public school system. Don't blame the system for not teaching the topics YOU want, however--everyone else has to send their kids to these schools too.

[Travlyr]

Don't crucify me, but not all public schools are the same. I was taught by many teachers who bucked the trend, and I always asked questions. I was always encouraged to be a free thinker by my educators. Then at home I was further encouraged to do additional research to supplement what I had learned. If something seemed bias, my parents would fill in the gap and allow me to come to the conclusion. This never affected my grades and usually the teachers who bucked the trend were more successful. I think the parents need to do more research and find a school that is best at teaching their kids the way they would like. It involves moving to another district for the benefit of the child... it would be the same IF the federal gov't allowed the states to legislate and people moved to where they knew they could best live their lives.

Did they teach you that gold & silver is real money and the only money allowed by the U.S. Constitution?
Did they teach you that the Federal Reserve System was created by a conspiracy of international bankers and politicians at Jekyll Island?


My public school taught me to pay for things in paper money which is the ghost of money. They lied to me, or they didn't know the truth themselves at the time.

[Sola_Fide]

One of the most pernicious aspects of state-education is the appearance of neutrality. Nothing is neutral. Not one thing in this universe is neutral.

[heavenlyboy34]

One of the most pernicious aspects of state-education is the appearance of neutrality. Nothing is neutral. Not one thing in this universe is neutral.
+rep (but I'm pretty sure mathematics is neutral)

[Sola_Fide]

+rep (but I'm pretty sure mathematics is neutral)

Yeah, not even math is neutral. In fact, math is one of the more clearly non-neutral aspects of life because of its relationship to logic. Logic is Truth. In John 1, Jesus is called the Logos, or eternal logic of God. Math, since it is so closely related to Logic (and therefore, issues of truth and falsehood), is a very biased disciple.

[NewRightLibertarian]

If you do send your kids to a public school, you'll have to spend lots of time talking to them about exactly what they're learning and what those supposed teachers are pushing on them. I would also suggest getting involved volunteering and spending as much time around the school as possible. These are the types of teachers who I remember loving to shove pharmaceutical zombie drugs like ritalin down the throats of many of my fellow travelers back in my private elementary school (and this was in the late 90s I'm sure it is much worse now as the government and its corporate partners have spiraled out of control). So you'd have to be vigilant. Homeschooling is the best option.

[RileyE104]

As someone who knows whats going on, I simply cannont send my future children to them.

Wait until you get a kid and are forced to realize how nearly impossible it is to escape the system.

Mine is still a long way from school age and so thankfully we dont have to deal with those decisions yet.

[heavenlyboy34]

Yeah, not even math is neutral. In fact, math is one of the more clearly non-neutral aspects of life because of its relationship to logic. Logic is Truth. In John 1, Jesus is called the Logos, or eternal logic of God. Math, since it is so closely related to Logic (and therefore, issues of truth and falsehood), is a very biased disciple.

Interesting. I'd never thought of it that way. :cool:

[Anti Federalist]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj4o4wjE7Y1qhvm43o1_400.jpg

[Paulatized]

Another related questions would be "Why do some people who go through public schools end up freedom minded. My three children went through public school and are all individualist, libertarian minded adults. I often wonder why that is. We were pretty much "free range" parents. We just provided a safe and secure environment and allowed them to explore their world and be themselves.

[Arklatex]

Send them to school to infect the other kids with new ideas.

thanks for that! And that tie dye shirt you sent me a couple years ago!

[Anti Federalist]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JadTLzxZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


Lockdown High: When the Schoolhouse Becomes a Jailhouse


http://www.amazon.com/Lockdown-High-Schoolhouse-Becomes-Jailhouse/dp/1844676811/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1306697243&sr=1-2-fkmr2

[johnrocks]

We have to live in the society we're forced to live in, I am forced to pay property taxes; that or lose my property; that goes to paying for schools;so yeah; while I support privatization; I would send my child to public school, hell, I helped pay for it.:mad:

[Invi]

If I had any other option, I could not see sending my child to a public school, whether I paid the taxes for it or not.
Though I really would prefer "not." :-/

If the man I have children with and I will be able to make ends meet, and still be able to home school, I'll try my damndest. As someone who is not religious, I would probably not send a child of mine to a private religious school unless that is what they wanted.
Public school is definitely a last resort. I want more of a say in what my child is being taught, and not having to reteach them something like, say, the history surrounding Lincoln.

[ChaosControl]

Depends on the area. I imagine in some wealthier districts that the schools aren't too horrible. They are pretty blah in my area and downright horrible in any inner city area, so yeah I'd strongly advise against public school in those cases.

I tend to prefer home schooling above all but private school can be adequate in some cases. No idea what I'll do when I have kids, depends on where I live and some other factors. Ideally I'll be working from home so home schooling wouldn't be an issue, but who knows.

[robert9712000]

The problem of our public schools is just one aspect of whats going on.The root problem in America imo is a mind set ,where people are being conditioned to basically grow up and become adult children.They cant reason for themselves or take responsibility for anything.They have to be told what to think and you cant do anything for yourself because everything needs done but a professional .People have become sheep who put there trust and faith in father government .

I know this isnt a religious thread so i dont want to hijack the topic but the schools really are just a small part of it.people need faith in something for there own peace of mind in life and when faith in God was taken out of the family, it only reasons that the void needs to be filled by something else,so people turn to government to get there confidence and peace of mind for there walk of life.

[emazur]

Another related questions would be "Why do some people who go through public schools end up freedom minded.

Anyone who had a free mind in the first place would become a libertarian BECAUSE OF public schools. Not because they teach individualism, but b/c public schools are so goddamned collectivist that a free minded individual would hate it to the very core, and if a philosophy of freedom is ever encountered (something that shouldn't be counted on - I never hear of libertarianism until I was 21 and as Stossel pointed out, most people still don't know), it will be warmly embraced.

[Travlyr]

Did they teach you that gold & silver is real money and the only money allowed by the U.S. Constitution?
Did they teach you that the Federal Reserve System was created by a conspiracy of international bankers and politicians at Jekyll Island?



This is an honest question. Was anybody taught these facts in a public school?

[Sola_Fide]

This is an honest question. Was anybody taught these facts in a public school?

Of course not. We were taught that were random accidental products of pond scum who should listen to authority and fall in line or else.

If we were taught anything about money, it was that the government owned it all and might let you have some if it deemed it appropriate.

[realtonygoodwin]

My private christian school history books talked positively about the gold standard!

[heavenlyboy34]

This is an honest question. Was anybody taught these facts in a public school?

Nope. Had to figure all that and much more out the hard way.

[iGGz]

//

[CaptUSA]

So, my son is approaching school age and I've thought long and hard about this. I've basically 3 options:

1. Government school (That's right - "public" school is a misnomer). I already pay for it so there's no additional cost out of my pocket. But there are plenty of opportunity costs. I'd have to spend so much time undoing the damage, I don't think it would be worth it.

2. Private school. I've looked around and the only ones that don't preach religion are very expensive. I'm not anti-religion, but I'd like my son to build a faith instead of being indoctrinated into someone else's.

3. Homeschooling. Neither my wife or I have the time to do this right. Plus, I worry about the lack of "normal" socialization.

So, you can see I will have to pick the least harmful option. There's no desireable one. I'm a product of first private, then some government schools. While the education was WAY WAY better in the private school, there were issues as well. I'm leaning towards finding an appropriate private school, but I will have to have a long talk with the school administrators before I'll give them my money.

I don't think there's any way to get away from homeschooling our children. It's just a matter of how much help we can get to supplement that education. If we allow someone else to solely educate our children, there's no telling what you're going to get. But if you allow the government, alone, to school your child, don't be surprised when he becomes either an obedient subject, or a criminal loser.

[Son of Detroit]

I'm lucky in the fact that I attended one of the best public schools in the nation in a very wealthy area. When I have kids, I'll keep an open mind about it. Check out the public schools in the area. If they're any good, they'll probably go there. If not, then it will be private school for sure.

[Theocrat]

One of the most pernicious aspects of state-education is the appearance of neutrality. Nothing is neutral. Not one thing in this universe is neutral.

Absolutely. Neutrality is the main tactic used to neutralize young impressionable minds that they are being taught truth in the classroom ("truth" apart from God, that is). They don't realize they are being indoctrinated to worship the State. Is it no wonder that most college kids coming from state-sponsored universities are liberal-minded, always giving credence to the State in the affairs of society?

[Travlyr]

Of course not. We were taught that were random accidental products of pond scum who should listen to authority and fall in line or else.

If we were taught anything about money, it was that the government owned it all and might let you have some if it deemed it appropriate.

Same here.

I remember back in the 80's I took a $1 and a $50 out of my wallet, and it just happened to dawn on me that whoever is making these bills is spending the same amount to make each one? :confused: It wasn't working that way for me. At the time, it was taking me nearly a full day of labor to make $50 and only a few minutes to make a $1.

I spent a lot of time running around to libraries to learn more, but my time was limited because I was raising a family and working as much as I could. I'd read the newspapers and eventually took Micro and Macro economics at a community college. They did not tell me those truths there either.

When I heard about Ron Paul, I was not connected to the liberty movement, and I bought a copy of The Revolution: A Manifesto. Then I read "End The Fed" which led me to "The Mystery of Banking" by Rothbard. That is when I finally learned how they can make $50 per second while it took me all day.

Come to find out, books which included those two facts were not in most libraries at the time, and they probably still aren't in most public libraries today, are they? Does anybody know? Can you get Rothbards books from a public library?

If they had been teaching these two facts in our High Schools, I'm convinced that we would all be flying around in a peaceful, prosperous, world, in our cars. A lot of individuals had their own airplane in the 50's and 60's. Not true anymore.

Did they teach you that gold & silver is real money and the only money allowed by the U.S. Constitution?
Did they teach you that the Federal Reserve System was created by a conspiracy of international bankers and politicians at Jekyll Island?

[ScotTX]

We did the private school thing last year and it is very expensive. My wife has decided to reduce her hours at her job and focus on homeschooling this year. We're making as many sacrifices as possible to keep from having to put the in the system, but we believe it's worth it.

[ItsTime]

Any school is there to help the parent. The problem is that the parents think the school takes away their responsibility to teach their child. My child goes to public schools, but we keep teaching her after school and are active in what they are talking about in class.

[nbhadja]

Both public and private teach BS. At least a public school is free, though homeschooling would be the best option.

[RabbitMan]

Any school is there to help the parent. The problem is that the parents think the school takes away their responsibility to teach their child. My child goes to public schools, but we keep teaching her after school and are active in what they are talking about in class.

EXACTLY. People love to speak in hyperbole, and yet there is always a glimmer of truth in every falsehood. No, Public High Schools don't(didn't in 2004) really focus on monetary policy in the modern US. No, they did not talk a lot about the Federal Reserve. I would argue that it is not a matter of some statist conspiracy; its just a matter of it not being a priority. I would then contend that this is partially because of the last few decades' societal focus on being politically correct. They'd rather focus on Black History Month and George Washington Carver inventing peanut butter than concentrating on something actually important, and its because they have to appeal to the diversity of America. It is what it is. But don't deprive your child of a social life just because you are afraid of 'government brainwashing'. Supplement your child's tax-paid education, and research the schools they will attend. There is plenty of opportunity if you just take advantage of it.

On a side note, I went to college with a lot of home-schooled folks, and was pretty shocked at their biased views on a lot of subjects. And several of my good friends growing up went to private school, and their education wasn't really any better than ours when advanced classes were compared. I'm not saying any of these are worse than the other, just that I don't think the 'one-size-fits-all-solution' is staying out of public schools. Don't you find it rather strange that the vast majority of the people on these forums probably went to public school? The only Libertarians and Paulites I personally know did. Which leads me to conclude that if you are worried about your child becoming a 'Statist slave', just nudge them in the right direction. Freedom is popular, you know.

I'm just sick and tired of public schools getting such a bad rap here. Common sense goes a long way. I got a good education because I pushed myself and my parents left me alone when I was fine and helped me when I strayed in the wrong direction. IIRC, statistically the number one indicator of a good student in the making is a stable home and a good diet. Seems pretty simple to me. But then, I guess a government-trained lap dog wouldn't know any better.

[Sola_Fide]

EXACTLY. People love to speak in hyperbole, and yet there is always a glimmer of truth in a falsehood. No, Public High Schools don't(didn't in 2004) really focus on monetary policy in the modern US. No, they did not talk a lot about the Federal Reserve. I would argue that it is not a matter of brainwashing, its just a matter of it not being a priority. I would then contend that this is partially because of the last few decades' societal focus on being politically correct. Don't deprive your child of a social life just because you are afraid of 'government brainwashing'. Supplement your child's tax-paid education, and research the schools they will attend. There is plenty of opportunity if you just take advantage of it.

On a side note, I went to college with a lot of home-schooled folks, and was pretty shocked at their biased views on a lot of subjects. Its rather strange that the publicly educated kid went on to be an Austrian Economic follower, and leads me to conclude that if you are worried about your child becoming a 'Statist slave', just nudge them in the right direction. Common sense goes a long way, and I'm sick and tired of public schools getting such a bad rap here. I got a good education because I pushed myself and my parents left me alone when I was fine and helped me when I strayed in the wrong direction. IIRC, statistically the number one indicator of a good student in the making is a stable home and a good diet. Seems pretty simple to me.

You're "sick and tired of public schools getting a bad rap here"? Huh?

Do you agree with Marx that compulsory education is one of the primary planks of Communism? Do you agree with the notion that the State owns your child's mind and soul? Do you like the fact that governments at the state level act as if they own your property by taxing it to waste it on dumbed-down propaganda? Do you like redistribution of wealth? Do you like the idea that people are coerced to pay for other people's childrens education? Do you like the fact the the state education monopoly has made this country dumber and more acceptable to slavery?

You need to reevaluate your thinking and make it consistent with liberty.


Whenever you hear a candidate say "I want to improve public education", you should have the same response to it that you have when you hear them say "I want to save social security." Deep down, you know it is still wrong.

[AceNZ]

I sent my kids to private school through middle school, then did home schooling / unschooling for high school.

I had a great experience in public schools, but that world is long-gone. Modern day public schools are really indoctrination centers. Their goal is not learning; it's to get people to behave the same, respect their authority (do what they're told) and to regurgitate rather than think. It's poison to an active mind.

[RabbitMan]

You're "sick and tired of public schools getting a bad rap here"? Huh?

Do you agree with Marx that compulsory education is one of the primary planks of Communism? Do you agree with the notion that the State owns your child's mind and soul? Do you like the fact that governments at the state level act as if they own your property by taxing it to waste it on dumbed-down propaganda? Do you like redistribution of wealth? Do you like the idea that people are coerced to pay for other people's childrens education? Do you like the fact the the state education monopoly has made this country dumber and more acceptable to slavery?

You need to reevaluate your thinking and make it consistent with liberty.


Whenever you hear a candidate say "I want to improve public education", you should have the same response to it that you have when you hear them say "I want to save social security." Deep down, you know it is still wrong.

NOTE: I accidentally kept editing my post after AquaBuddha quoted and responded. Oops! My bad! haha

What does Marx and his views have to do with this? Coming back to liberty, people are born with inalienable rights. The State can not own my child's mind and soul. At least...I don't think. That's a natural law right? Damned public-school textbook! Seriously though, the one issue I have with the liberty platform is the unrealistic expectation that people would EVER want to get rid of public schools. It simply won't ever happen. A public voucher program like Gary Johnson advocates, a pre-paid ticket to any school willing to accept it, is the very extreme limit where I believe the average person might be willing to go, "Oh..well...Yeah, I can see that."

Then again, I see statements like "the state education monopoly has made this country dumber and more acceptable to slavery" as completely off-base and ignorant at its very foundation. I don't like to pick apart sentences, but 'the state education' is not the only factor in a child's schooling, and it is not really WHY this country is 'dumber', let alone 'more acceptable to slavery'. If you look at trends, it can be easily argued that this dumbing down is a social issue relating to consumerism or just a culture of poverty. But no one is proposing that public schooling is the most efficient or even effective means of educating students. What is being argued is do the benefits of having a (mostly) guaranteed intellectual safety net outweigh the extra waste that inevitably occurs. Sure, many families and kids won't take advantage of it, but there are a lot that do.

Being a libertarian is all about finding the right minimal balance between liberty and state. I feel this is one of those issues where society can agree that this at least has the air of legitimacy. These are kids we are talking about here, not adults responsible for their own actions.


I had a great experience in public schools, but that world is long-gone. Modern day public schools are really indoctrination centers. Their goal is not learning; it's to get people to behave the same, respect their authority (do what they're told) and to regurgitate rather than think. It's poison to an active mind.

I have a friend that last year was doing terrible in highschool. He was in 'regular' classes and was subjected to much of what you talked about. Regurgitation, rote memorization, do your worksheet or you'll be in trouble. He was bored to death and had a troubled home, and was performing awful because of it. My girlfriend and I encouraged him to take some advanced classes this past year, and BAM, he began getting good grades and was expanding his knowledge on his own time because he was being challenged and treated like a responsible human being. That world isn't long gone. It's just hiding behind the veil of mediocrity that public services subject themselves to in order to please the lowest common denominator.

[Eagles' Wings]

We are switching our kid to a Charter school. Comfy uniforms of khakis and polo shirt, alleviates angst to dress according to collective standards.

No text books for humanities, based on classic curriculum and taught by Socratic method.

No tuition because it is a public school. Small class sizes - 60 kids per grade vs 600 at local high school.

Another option is on-line public school. K12 looked good and Connections Academy.

Trying to get the most out of the HUGE amount of taxes we pay.

[angelatc]

Did they teach you that gold & silver is real money and the only money allowed by the U.S. Constitution?
Did they teach you that the Federal Reserve System was created by a conspiracy of international bankers and politicians at Jekyll Island?


My public school taught me to pay for things in paper money which is the ghost of money. They lied to me, or they didn't know the truth themselves at the time.

ANd yet you turned out ok.

[AceNZ]

I have a friend that last year was doing terrible in highschool. He was in 'regular' classes and was subjected to much of what you talked about. Regurgitation, rote memorization, do your worksheet or you'll be in trouble. He was bored to death and had a troubled home, and was performing awful because of it. My girlfriend and I encouraged him to take some advanced classes this past year, and BAM, he began getting good grades and was expanding his knowledge on his own time because he was being challenged and treated like a responsible human being. That world isn't long gone. It's just hiding behind the veil of mediocrity that public services subject themselves to in order to please the lowest common denominator.

Let me be more clear about the things I object to with regard to modern public schools:

-- grades
-- rote memorization
-- teachers disciplining my children
-- the subjects that are taught and how they are taught
-- kids being discouraged from asking questions
-- the values that are taught
-- spending so much time teaching how to take tests, rather than learning the material
-- the lies and distortions in subjects that are taught (history is a particular pet peeve)
-- the way teachers and administrators are hired, paid and rewarded
-- the way administrators control classrooms and limit how and what can be taught
-- kids being treated more like animals than humans ("round 'em up! move 'em out!")
-- the destruction of individuality (including rewards for conformity)
-- teaching what to think instead of how to think

So, yeah, a world without those objections seems pretty long gone to me. If you're talking about motivating people to cooperate with the system (good grades, learning what they're told, etc), sure, that's probably not long gone yet -- though I'm not sure that's a good thing.

[tekkierich]

Did they teach you that gold & silver is real money and the only money allowed by the U.S. Constitution?
Did they teach you that the Federal Reserve System was created by a conspiracy of international bankers and politicians at Jekyll Island?


My public school taught me to pay for things in paper money which is the ghost of money. They lied to me, or they didn't know the truth themselves at the time.

Nope, but my public school had me read 1984 and Animal Farm. My public school showed me Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, and Twelve Angry Men. They also designed a program just for me to allow me to learn how to fix computers at my own pace (side benefit the school got a lot of free computer work).

In the end knowing how to go along to get along is a valuable skill. This doesn't mean you do it all the time, but you do need to do it sometimes. For instance, do you fight the man and the requirements to get a Drivers License (Real ID)? While a noble a good cause that should be fought, perhaps you have better use of your time, driving or flying.


I will be sending my children to public school AND I will be teaching them the things that are valuable to me after school.

[thedude]

Nope, but my public school had me read 1984 and Animal Farm. My public school showed me Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, and Twelve Angry Men. They also designed a program just for me to allow me to learn how to fix computers at my own pace (side benefit the school got a lot of free computer work).

In the end knowing how to go along to get along is a valuable skill. This doesn't mean you do it all the time, but you do need to do it sometimes. For instance, do you fight the man and the requirements to get a Drivers License (Real ID)? While a noble a good cause that should be fought, perhaps you have better use of your time, driving or flying.


I will be sending my children to public school AND I will be teaching them the things that are valuable to me after school.

Hear, Hear

Except it wasn't computers for me, it was photography and, as the only student participating, I was allowed to have my own dark room. I created the Play Bills for the seasonal performances as well as worked very hard on each yearbook throughout high school.

We were also required to watch and be tested on the concepts of the movie "Wag the Dog" in class, the teach also, under hushed tones, brought up the Gulf of Tonkin.

The problem, as I see it, is that parents have abdicated responsibility to the school... hence the increasing crappier outcomes. If you want your child to be a free and independent spirit, then take some time to encourage that instead of hoping the school does it. As somebody has already stated, the school teaches to the lowest common denominator and implements crappier policies based on how many times a PC soccer mom or dad has sued the school because they brought up something they didn't like. The schools have fought these frivolous law suits, but the tax payer gets stuck with the bill. Over the last several decades, budgets have been getting smaller so it's easier to just settle or promise to change the rules. When you have to decide between a new computer lab, science lab, updated textbooks, or even pencils and paper... or fighting a frivolous lawsuit because a teacher brought in a book a parent didn't like... sacrifices are made. It's not perfect. But then again, nothing is. So go ahead, trash public schools for not teaching conspiracies (though my school did teach me the constitution, in fact we spent a half a year on it... and gold and silver were brought up as the standard of weights and measures, and yes the history of the Federal Reserve was taught as well; just not the creature from Jekyll island :o [probably because a parent would sue the school]).

You have the freedom of choice, you can homeschool your child, pay the ever increasing costs of private school, send them to a charter school, or put them on the bus to public school. In any of these areas, there will be bias and the child will not learn all sides of any situation. I will send my child to public school to learn how to socialize and to obtain a basic understanding of the various aspects of life, then when they come home I will fill in the rest. If you think your child is being brainwashed in public school, maybe you should take a little more time to supplement their education at home.

[thedude]

Let me be more clear about the things I object to with regard to modern public schools:

-- grades
-- rote memorization
-- teachers disciplining my children
-- the subjects that are taught and how they are taught
-- kids being discouraged from asking questions
-- the values that are taught
-- spending so much time teaching how to take tests, rather than learning the material
-- the lies and distortions in subjects that are taught (history is a particular pet peeve)
-- the way teachers and administrators are hired, paid and rewarded
-- the way administrators control classrooms and limit how and what can be taught
-- kids being treated more like animals than humans ("round 'em up! move 'em out!")
-- the destruction of individuality (including rewards for conformity)
-- teaching what to think instead of how to think

So, yeah, a world without those objections seems pretty long gone to me. If you're talking about motivating people to cooperate with the system (good grades, learning what they're told, etc), sure, that's probably not long gone yet -- though I'm not sure that's a good thing.

Modern public schools? These have been around for generations...

--grades (i don't know if you mean the recent reduction of the passing grade for the no child left behind or the concept of grades altogether, but the latter has been in practice for a very long time)
--rote memorization (how else did you learn to pass those spelling tests? how did you learn to pass those vocabulary tests? i prefer this method)
--teachers disciplining my children (hell, my mother got her ass beat by nuns almost every day in school... you don't like they make your kid sit 5 minutes at recess?)
--the subjects that are being taught and how they are taught (i suppose this is a matter of taste and degree, but what subjects have they added you are opposed to? i know they got rid of most of the art and music programs)
--kids being discouraged from asking questions (i can agree with this, and is something you should bring up at the next PTA meeting or with the board, if it is actually in this state... no schools around here object to questions)
--the values that are taught (again, taste and degree... the values I object to the most are those taught amongst peers, not by the school. but you also have the responsibility of teaching values at home, and if you do a good enough job, your child will keep these values in life)
--spending so much time teaching how to take tests, rather than learning the material (well, rote memorization takes some time so you can't have it both ways. but i agree, this is another side effect of no child left behind... sit with your child while they do their homework and supplement their education, that is a responsibility)
--the lies and distortions in subjects that are taught (history is a particular pet peeve) // (I agree, but again... take some responsibility to fill in the gaps... this has always been a major issue [not just a modern occurrence])
--the way teachers and administrators are hired, paid and rewarded (this is the lack of interference from the public demanding appropriate accountability. again, responsibility of the parent and community at large)
-- the way administrators control classrooms and limit how and what can be taught (I also object to this, but it is the same responsibility above. many parents beat the school administrators in PTA meetings and board meetings by fighting these things)
-- kids being treated more like animals than humans ("round 'em up! move 'em out!") // (come talk to us after you have sat with 30 kids all day, every day, for years. the lack of funding increases the size of the classrooms. this doesn't happen as often in smaller schools, which is where i plan to purchase my home and send my children to school)
-- the destruction of individuality (including rewards for conformity) // (again, a public responsibility to take interest and demand change. but this is also not a new concept)
-- teaching what to think instead of how to think (that should also fall on the parent as a responsibility. but this not a new concept either. as school years get shorter and budgets are continuously slashed, and the PC liberals are the only ones showing up to the PTA meetings... what would you expect the outcome to be?)

I'm not picking a fight, just merely providing my two cents on what you have put together here.

[moostraks]

[b]
...What is being argued is do the benefits of having a (mostly) guaranteed intellectual safety net outweigh the extra waste that inevitably occurs. Sure, many families and kids won't take advantage of it, but there are a lot that do.

Being a libertarian is all about finding the right minimal balance between liberty and state. I feel this is one of those issues where society can agree that this at least has the air of legitimacy...


For those of us who are carrying the tax burden to fund this propaganda outlet we differ with your opinion on the necessity of this entity. The state utilizes this closed forum to teach the majority to conform without question or risk severe punishment as well as a biased curriculum with subjective morality. Eighty percent or better of my property taxes are funding this fiasco of teaching to the lowest common denominator. Yet this is just usage?

The right balance between state and liberty on this issue is the same as the responsibility to provide other basic necessities for ones children. It should not be a program funded by property owners, many of which don't have children or are beyond child bearing age.

Oh and as for your friend with the advanced classes, our mileage differs. My son was put in advanced placement and they did a bunch of mind numbing drivel that he saw no point to and was wasting his potential so color me unimpressed. AP for a third grader was not more advanced classes but rather several hours a week doing worksheets on mind bender games. They are just more advanced versions of the mainstream classes with no true teaching to a child's full potential and strengths.

The last straw for us was when he was pulled out as a discipline problem for complaining that one of the boys in class was putting his hands down a female friend's shirt (against her will!) and the teacher was pissed at my son for interrupting class. That was in third grade. It is not the values I want my children to be taught. It was in an upper middle class school in the suburbs of northwest Atlanta. I pulled him immediately and informed them it was their lack of ethical response. They were not even going to talk to the parents or child who was being accosted in class much less talk to the bully/molester. The only one who got in trouble was my son for speaking up. That is beyond wrong...

[scottditzen]

Oh man...that DOES look like prison!!!

[QUOTE=iGGz;3309441]The first HS I went to was this really cool, old brick building. It was huge and looked similar to a castle. Anyway, I was only able to go to it for 1 year because they tore it down after that. The new HS they put up was so terrible. It felt like a prison. It was based on this "small school theory." It was in the shape of an X and all the floors were the exact same. The main area where the students hung out before and between classes was surrounded by this second floor balcony that went all the way around. The principal and teachers always stood up there just looking down. They also added ~10 cameras to each hallway, the black half sphere, Walmart type. I mean they were everywhere. I hated that place so much, dreaded going there. Is this how most new schools are being built?

[moostraks]

I will send my child to public school to learn how to socialize and to obtain a basic understanding of the various aspects of life, then when they come home I will fill in the rest. If you think your child is being brainwashed in public school, maybe you should take a little more time to supplement their education at home.

Why shouldn't you as the parent be responsible to pay for the child's education? Why should it be the burden of every property owner in the school district to fund to the tune of 80% or better? Why shouldn't there be a user fee for public school? What part of freedom gives the state the right to seize property someone else has worked for unless they support their neighbor's child's education???

[Travlyr]

ANd yet you turned out ok.

Thank you, and you as well... ;)

But I have not been able to live a life of liberty, peace, and prosperity BECAUSE they suppressed that knowledge. We are in rebellion now because we learned the truth and we must now teach it and free the people.

Educational institutions don't have to be prisons.

[thedude]

Why shouldn't you as the parent be responsible to pay for the child's education? Why should it be the burden of every property owner in the school district to fund to the tune of 80% or better? Why shouldn't there be a user fee for public school? What part of freedom gives the state the right to seize property someone else has worked for unless they support their neighbor's child's education???

There are a lot of things I agree should be exclusionary, but education (as mediocre as it may seem to be) should not be one of them. Whether you may acknowledge it or not, you also benefit from public education. Imagine all of those kids whose parents do not make enough money to pay this fee you speak of. You thought our collective IQ was bad now? Just wait until these millions of kids grow up. In fact, this is the sort of thing that would fall right into the hands of the big government types that want a stupid society... Yes, they are working on completely destroying the public education system as a whole... but this idea of a fee and excluding so many would only fast track their wishes!! I mean, there aren't enough McDonalds and Gas Stations in this country to employ all of these kids. In the society we live, which is majority service integrated with technology, there is no way you would have enough people to keep our large industries operating. "Oh, but Dude, you fail to realize that these children would be educated at home and they would learn all about science and math from their parents." (yes, I put words in your mouth because this is what I see as the only reasonable argument against what I have said here) I am willing to say that about 20% of the parents unable to afford the fee would be able to effectively teach these concepts to their children. But it would only take 3 generations, likely less, until we are completely dominated by the rest of the world. We thought C average George W. Bush was bad... just wait until the majority of uneducated citizens elect one of their own as president... then wait until congress and the senate are full of them... you thought our current state of affairs was bad? I promise you, you haven't seen anything until this happens...

Furthermore, taxes were a stipulation of the contract you knew about before purchasing land. If you don't want to pay these taxes, rent... There is a market of choice. Don't complain about the one YOU made.

Lastly, not all school taxes are that high. I encourage you to shop around and move... Your situation is unlike my own and my choices do not put me in such a bad situation. I have as much sympathy for your "responsible" decisions as I do for somebody who got knocked up and doesn't want to pay the price. It's not like you bought the land, read the fine print, and went "oh what the hell! taxes? swindled again..."

[moostraks]

There are a lot of things I agree should be exclusionary, but education (as mediocre as it may seem to be) should not be one of them. Whether you may acknowledge it or not, you also benefit from public education. Imagine all of those kids whose parents do not make enough money to pay this fee you speak of. You thought our collective IQ was bad now? Just wait until these millions of kids grow up. In fact, this is the sort of thing that would fall right into the hands of the big government types that want a stupid society... Yes, they are working on completely destroying the public education system as a whole... but this idea of a fee and excluding so many would only fast track their wishes!! I mean, there aren't enough McDonalds and Gas Stations in this country to employ all of these kids. In the society we live, which is majority service integrated with technology, there is no way you would have enough people to keep our large industries operating. "Oh, but Dude, you fail to realize that these children would be educated at home and they would learn all about science and math from their parents." (yes, I put words in your mouth because this is what I see as the only reasonable argument against what I have said here) I am willing to say that about 20% of the parents unable to afford the fee would be able to effectively teach these concepts to their children. But it would only take 3 generations, likely less, until we are completely dominated by the rest of the world. We thought C average George W. Bush was bad... just wait until the majority of uneducated citizens elect one of their own as president... then wait until congress and the senate are full of them... you thought our current state of affairs was bad? I promise you, you haven't seen anything until this happens...

Furthermore, taxes were a stipulation of the contract you knew about before purchasing land. If you don't want to pay these taxes, rent... There is a market of choice. Don't complain about the one YOU made.

Lastly, not all school taxes are that high. I encourage you to shop around and move... Your situation is unlike my own and my choices do not put me in such a bad situation. I have as much sympathy for your "responsible" decisions as I do for somebody who got knocked up and doesn't want to pay the price. It's not like you bought the land, read the fine print, and went "oh what the hell! taxes? swindled again..."

The society we live in is directly related to the poor quality education and abdication of parental rights we see. There is an agenda put forth through public schools to intimidate people into thinking that without this welfare program all hell will break loose on the streets and that parents cannot teach their children. It is utter nonsense. Public schools are one of the major factors destroying parental responsibility and gives people the excuse to abdicate their position of authority and duty to educate. We have a populace supposedly too stupid to teach their children because of mass public schooling and the belief that only a village can raise the child, several of which must have teaching degrees.:rolleyes:

Education is not being handled cost effectively in the public school system, but that is irrelevant because they will just up tax rates and force people to pay whatever price they see fit. It is so expensive because there is no real accountability. If it was consumer driven parents would expect their money to produce something of value. I pay every year but my children don't attend so they hear nothing from me. Many people using the services are using it as a "free" daycare system so they don't complain. It is pretty easy to then marginalize the few parents who do complain as quacks.

Your attitude is as anti-liberty as they come. You are not entitled to my money because I want to own property and threaten with police force to seize something unrelated belonging to your neighbor for your needs. The ridiculous idea that the community should fund the choice of those who have children to be educated is antithetical to liberty. If you have children, then you should educate them. The cost should be the burden of those who choose to embrace parenthood. Fear mongering can/is be(ing) used to push through any and all sorts of ridiculous legislation and agencies. It doesn't make the argument right.

As for renting, the property owner rolls the taxes into the price of which the rent is set. You choose servitude to the landlord as agent of the state to collect what the school demands for their services. Your view that I should shop around is preposterous unless and until property taxes become untethered to the "education" system. Any amount for a service I see as unnecessary and immoral is too much. I gave you a ball park figure for percentage not dollar amount. I have lived in rural Alabama, suburban northwest Atlanta, and a city location in northeast Ohio. Owning property in all three areas. They all averaged around 80% of property taxes for education. That is a ridiculous amount taken by force from the community for one service so that unscrupulous people can bleed their neighbors dry for their lifestyle choices...

[freshjiva]

Because the system has made alternatives (home schooling and private schools) unaffordable. Besides, why should we pay federal and state income taxes, sales taxes, cap gains taxes and property taxes, and not get anything in return for it?

It's the old "cat and mouse" chase. If we make use of public services, the left accuses us of being hypocritical. If we don't make use of them, we're paying taxes with nothing in return, letting the politicians and freeloaders have a field day with our money.

[fisharmor]

Too many people here haven't read Gatto.
Some of his work is online for free, so you have little excuse.
He documents the writings of the people who pushed for public school in this country - he doesn't argue, he documents.
In their own words, it was done in order to create a complacent lower class. There's a reason we still have bells and periodic fast mass movement between classes.
The model for schooling that is still used today is also a descendant of a system used in India to reinforce their caste system.

To those of you who think that socialization is the point of public school - well, how about that, most of us thought the point was schooling.... but beyond that, how socialized is your child going to be by sticking him in a class with 30 other people the same age for half of the day? I suppose those who believe this never read Lord of the Flies in class, huh?
How is it that you think that socialization isn't happening in homeschool? You think homeschoolers like being cooped up with their kids in the house all day? Part of the point is that they can go places and do stuff, you know. Didn't it occur to you that homeschoolers might reach out to each other?

To those of you without kids who are convinced that their children are going to form a faith without any instruction - This was the cake-taker before the comment below for misguided comments. Your children will decide? In what other situations do your children get to decide? Do they sit around eating lollipops and watching Spongebob all day? In case you've forgotten what childhood is like - that's what kids will do when given the choice.
At what point will they be able to make informed decisions about matters that are written in languages that have been dead for hundreds of years, which often don't translate well to English, sans regular instruction?
If they're not at least exposed to some religion from an early age, they're going to be at a distinct disadvantage should they decide to go with it as an adult. You need to teach them at least one thing: that you're teaching them to be pretty devout atheists.


Lastly, not all school taxes are that high. I encourage you to shop around and move... Your situation is unlike my own and my choices do not put me in such a bad situation.

Yeah, this is what my brother did. Turns out where he lives there are a lot of rotten school districts. I'm sure they all complain about the money. Which they get from the rents homeowners have to pay on their "property". Which are determined by property value. Which is low. Because the education level is low. Because the schools are bad. Because they don't have enough money.

Or, how about a libertarian solution: fuck school, I'm homeschooling my kids, I'm teaching them responsible property ownership, we're taking care of our place because we live there, not because there's a HOA or because we're trying to sell so we can move to some place where the indoctrination camp is better.

The idea that I have to pack up my shit and move when the schools are bad is the most monstrous, anti-liberty thing I've read on this forum in quite some time.

Besides, it destroys that whole socialization argument (not that there was one to begin with) because the children have to make all new friends, and are potentially moving away from family.
Who cares about neighborhoods, long-term employment, strong congregations, and local commerce anyway? Fuck all that, we need to move to get into a better school.

[moostraks]

Because the system has made alternatives (home schooling and private schools) unaffordable. Besides, why should we pay federal and state income taxes, sales taxes, cap gains taxes and property taxes, and not get anything in return for it?

It's the old "cat and mouse" chase. If we make use of public services, the left accuses us of being hypocritical. If we don't make use of them, we're paying taxes with nothing in return, letting the politicians and freeloaders have a field day with our money.

Homeschooling can be done on a limited budget. Private schools often have a certain number of slots for those of lower income. Choosing public school (excepting as a method of last resort due to unforeseen circumstances) should be as vile as choosing to be a welfare queen, imo...It certainly shouldn't be something advocated for unless it is funded by those using its services.

The problem is there isn't enough shame for using public school as there is for using food stamps. If children need education to make society sound, how much more do they need healthcare, clothing, and food? Shouldn't the community provide for all of these needs as well for all the families in their community? Why does education get a special pass? (It is because of the benefits it provides for the establishment...)

[Vessol]

I sent my kids to private school through middle school, then did home schooling / unschooling for high school.

I had a great experience in public schools, but that world is long-gone. Modern day public schools are really indoctrination centers. Their goal is not learning; it's to get people to behave the same, respect their authority (do what they're told) and to regurgitate rather than think. It's poison to an active mind.[

Public schools have always been like that. That was their purpose during their inception in the early 19th century. Don't let nostalgia cloud your vision.

http://www.quantumshift.tv/v/1198046178

Public Schools are NOT broken. They are working just as they intended.

"The schools must fashion the person, and fashion him in such a way that he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will" -Johann Gottlieb Fichte, the father of the Prussian model of education

[RabbitMan]

Whether or not Public schools were created that way, I would argue that administrators and teachers, you know the people who are integral to the schools themselves, interpret it differently. My girlfriend has taken classes on education, and they really do have good intentions. So really it doesn't matter WHY public schools were created in the 19th century. Who cares that the cardboard box was invented to strangle small kittens?* We use it for storage now. I don't often like to use this corny line but, "Things are different now."

*Not really why they were invented, but just for the sake of argument

[Sola_Fide]

Whether or not Public schools were created that way, I would argue that administrators and teachers, you know the people who are integral to the schools themselves, interpret it differently. My girlfriend has taken classes on education, and they really do have good intentions. So really it doesn't matter WHY public schools were created in the 19th century. Who cares that the cardboard box was invented to strangle small kittens?* We use it for storage now. I don't often like to use this corny line but, "Things are different now."

*Not really why they were invented, but just for the sake of argument


Riiiiiighhhhtttt.....


And Social Security really is a successful inter-generational program....really.

[AceNZ]

--grades (i don't know if you mean the recent reduction of the passing grade for the no child left behind or the concept of grades altogether, but the latter has been in practice for a very long time) == I object to grades all together. My kids didn't have them at the private school they went to, and my grandparents didn't have them either.
--rote memorization (how else did you learn to pass those spelling tests? how did you learn to pass those vocabulary tests? i prefer this method) == one of many problems with rote memorization is that it usually doesn't stick very long. It's great for passing a test, then most people promptly drop the info. There are much better ways to teach.
--teachers disciplining my children (hell, my mother got her ass beat by nuns almost every day in school... you don't like they make your kid sit 5 minutes at recess?) == no, I object to having kids be yelled at by teachers, being sent to the principal or dean's office, being required to attend detention, getting penalized for being late, etc, etc.
--the subjects that are being taught and how they are taught (i suppose this is a matter of taste and degree, but what subjects have they added you are opposed to? i know they got rid of most of the art and music programs) == most of what's taught in public schools is stuff that no one in their right mind needs on a day-to-day basis, like how to be politically correct, minority rights, etc; lots of crap, very little meat
--kids being discouraged from asking questions (i can agree with this, and is something you should bring up at the next PTA meeting or with the board, if it is actually in this state... no schools around here object to questions) == no more PTA for me; my kids are in their early twenties now
--the values that are taught (again, taste and degree... the values I object to the most are those taught amongst peers, not by the school. but you also have the responsibility of teaching values at home, and if you do a good enough job, your child will keep these values in life) == when your kids are at school 6 to 8 hours a day, the degree of influence of teachers is often disproportionately high; when kids are presented with conflicting values, they don't always choose the right ones, and it's not something you can force
--spending so much time teaching how to take tests, rather than learning the material (well, rote memorization takes some time so you can't have it both ways. but i agree, this is another side effect of no child left behind... sit with your child while they do their homework and supplement their education, that is a responsibility) == I can definitely have it both ways; my kids had no rote memorization, no tests, no grades, and didn't have 3 hours of homework a night like most of their public school peers
--the lies and distortions in subjects that are taught (history is a particular pet peeve) // (I agree, but again... take some responsibility to fill in the gaps... this has always been a major issue [not just a modern occurrence]) == easier said than done; it's more than filling in the blanks, it's asking them to learn one thing for a test, then forget it and learn the right thing for the rest of their lives -- pretty difficult for anyone, much less kids
--the way teachers and administrators are hired, paid and rewarded (this is the lack of interference from the public demanding appropriate accountability. again, responsibility of the parent and community at large) == and when you don't agree with the public at large, does that mean you should be made to suffer with the result?
-- the way administrators control classrooms and limit how and what can be taught (I also object to this, but it is the same responsibility above. many parents beat the school administrators in PTA meetings and board meetings by fighting these things) == ditto as above
-- kids being treated more like animals than humans ("round 'em up! move 'em out!") // (come talk to us after you have sat with 30 kids all day, every day, for years. the lack of funding increases the size of the classrooms. this doesn't happen as often in smaller schools, which is where i plan to purchase my home and send my children to school) == my kid's classes had about 30 kids per teacher, and they were never treated that way; if one particular kid seriously disturbed things for others (such as by hitting another kid), they were sent home for the rest of the day, and if they kept it up, they would be expelled entirely
-- the destruction of individuality (including rewards for conformity) // (again, a public responsibility to take interest and demand change. but this is also not a new concept) == again, as above
-- teaching what to think instead of how to think (that should also fall on the parent as a responsibility. but this not a new concept either. as school years get shorter and budgets are continuously slashed, and the PC liberals are the only ones showing up to the PTA meetings... what would you expect the outcome to be?) == in my responsibility as a parent, my decision was to remove my kids from the toxic public school system; fighting the public system at every decision point is a losing game. My kids loved school. How many kids in public school can say that today?


I'm not picking a fight, just merely providing my two cents on what you have put together here.

Same here.

[farrar]

Did they teach you that gold & silver is real money and the only money allowed by the U.S. Constitution?
Did they teach you that the Federal Reserve System was created by a conspiracy of international bankers and politicians at Jekyll Island?


My public school taught me to pay for things in paper money which is the ghost of money. They lied to me, or they didn't know the truth themselves at the time.

My schools have been utter crap. But there are some people I rather like. Recently My former english teacher who heads NHS at my old highschool, was holding a car wash to raise charity for relay for life. I brought my truck over and we were talking. He saw the Ron Paul bumper sticker and asked me if I was a Ron Paul guy. I told him yes, and he said if Ron ever got the nomination he would probably vote for him. He continued on to ask me if I had finished Atlas shrugged yet. I told him no, and he seemed a little disappointed. He pretty much turned me on to the Fountainhead and he had my 10th grade english class read Anthem for extra credit. His class was great, and there were plenty of class discussions on things such as questioning authority, the constitution, the education system, as well as "the administration". I enjoyed his class, and the one thing I regret about taking up dual enrollment at my college was missing his senior AP Class. Moral of the story: Sometime there is counter propaganda in public schools. Its pretty interesting to see how receptive others were to what he would question us with (he often integrated a sort of socratic method into class discussions).

[Travlyr]

Moral of the story: Sometime there is counter propaganda in public schools. Its pretty interesting to see how receptive others were to what he would question us with (he often integrated a sort of socratic method into class discussions).

No doubt. I had some very good role models and teachers in school. However, either they did not know the importance of the two facts I needed to know, or they did not know themselves ... which is more likely.

Honest sound money is prosperous for the people; fiat money is prosperous for the ruling class. I wish they would have told me that 40 years ago.

[Travlyr]

When I heard about Ron Paul, I was not connected to the liberty movement, and I bought a copy of The Revolution: A Manifesto. Then I read "End The Fed" which led me to "The Mystery of Banking" by Rothbard. That is when I finally learned how they can make $50 per second while it took me all day.

Come to find out, books which included those two facts were not in most libraries at the time, and they probably still aren't in most public libraries today, are they? Does anybody know? Can you get Rothbards books from a public library?

I just searched my public library for books by Rothbard, Mises, and Mullins. They are not available publicly in my city even today. I will be searching the local University later to see if they are available to public college students.

Anyone else who has time on their hands, please search your local libraries to find out if books by Murray N. Rothbard, Ludwig von Mises, or Eustace Mullins are available to read, and post your results in this thread. Thanks.

[heavenlyboy34]

I just searched my public library for books by Rothbard, Mises, and Mullins. They are not available publicly in my city even today. I will be searching the local University later to see if they are available to public college students.

Anyone else who has time on their hands, please search your local libraries to find out if books by Murray N. Rothbard, Ludwig von Mises, or Eustace Mullins are available to read, and post your results in this thread. Thanks.
Phoenix Public library-
1. America's Great Depression (http://www.phoenixpubliclibrary.org/controller.jsp?R=805483) [Downloadable Audio Book] http://www.phoenixpubliclibrary.org/images/preview.png Preview (http://www.phoenixpubliclibrary.org/controller.jsp?Ns=Author&N=0&Ntk=Author&Ntt=Rothbard&Nty=1&D=Rothbard&Ntx=mode+matchall&Dx=mode+matchall#void)
By Rothbard, Murray Newton, 1926-1995. Published: 2008
Call Number: E-Audio
http://www.phoenixpubliclibrary.org/images/chilifresh_0.gif (http://www.phoenixpubliclibrary.org/controller.jsp?Ns=Author&N=0&Ntk=Author&Ntt=Rothbard&Nty=1&D=Rothbard&Ntx=mode+matchall&Dx=mode+matchall#void) (0 reviews (http://www.phoenixpubliclibrary.org/controller.jsp?Ns=Author&N=0&Ntk=Author&Ntt=Rothbard&Nty=1&D=Rothbard&Ntx=mode+matchall&Dx=mode+matchall#void))
That's all I could find. :(

[Travlyr]

Thanks HB.
All three authors are available at the University here in Colorado.

[White Bear Lake]

I went to Catholic school and enjoyed it. That being said, Catholic school has been insanely pussified since the days when my parents and grandparents went there (everyone in my family has went to the same school for at least three generations).

I do agree that these new contemporary schools being built look like nothing more than state run prisons (which they kind of are). Atleast in the old days schools had some great architecture:

Duluth Central High School: (just shut down this year):
http://hauntednorthamerica.webs.com/dulth%20central%20high%20school.jpg

St Paul Central: (torn down a decade ago and replaced with a brutalist monstrosity that is painful to look at):
http://central.spps.org/home/history/images/chsMarshLex.jpg

Hibbing HS: (still being used, HS of Bob Dylan)
http://www.mnartists.org/uploads/news/1c2ae29fd94e858ed68deb9cf64d2b88/1c2ae29fd94e858ed68deb9cf64d2b88.jpg