DOT considering 'black boxes' for cars

[jim49er]

Some cars already have some of this installed. How can I get rid of it?

[pcosmar]

Some cars already have some of this installed. How can I get rid of it?

Buy an old car, restore it yourself.

[jim49er]

I want to move foward not backwards. I'f this stuff is in my car help me . I'M not a mechanic but some here may know how to defeat this.

[QueenB4Liberty]

I hope mine doesn't have one in it.

[acptulsa]

I want to move foward not backwards. I'f this stuff is in my car help me . I'M not a mechanic but some here may know how to defeat this.

Having to dismantle your new car to make it stop doing what you don't want it to do is progress? This is moving forward?

If this is forward, what the hell is wrong with backward?

And where this thing is varies widely according to make and model. Yours might not even have it. Yours might have it so built in, if you took out the computer that does the dirty deed the car might not start and run.

You might also consider whether this will void your warranty or not.

Progress. Bah. 1969 was a very good year for American cars.

[VBRonPaulFan]

from what i've read, some manufacturers (mostly gm) have already been putting these in since the early/mid 90's. it looks like all manufacturers have this to some extent in all of their vehicles now.

since it's monitoring data in real time it's probably wired directly into the ecu and restraint systems. meaning that unless you're willing to sit down with the dash wiring harness diagrams and hack up the harness, you probably just can't 'pull it out'. apparently none of the manufacturers have a standard place to put it or even a standard format to save the data into, nor a standard of what kind of data they save. that's what the new legislation is trying to do, standardize the data and the type of data across the board so its easier to use in court cases or criminal investigations.

if you're that worried about it, your best bet is probably to drive a mid/late 90's beater honda or something. it's my understanding that it only holds data up to a few seconds prior to an airbag deployment, and only honda can actually look at the data (you need a special scan tool nobody else can get to pull the data).

[HOLLYWOOD]

Ray Lahood is Nazi Big Brother and dictator for the Auto Insurance companies.

Have your Insurance rates gone down with all the; mandates, cameras, traffic cops, crumble barriers, safety devices, license plate scanners, radar, laser, airplanes, traffic control, new traffic law after law, after law, etc etc etc?

No, the insurance rates keep going up.

[acptulsa]

No, the insurance rates keep going up.

Well, of course they do. And being mandatory is a big help. Sure jacked up health care rates.

Besides, the insurance lobby still insists that Americans not be taught how to drive properly. Europeans continue to laugh at our so-called driver's education. So, what does all this mean? Your car will turn into a rubber room at the first sign of trouble, preventing you from minimizing the damage but maybe ensuring you'll survive to pay higher premiums--if your air bag doesn't kill you itself, that is. And your car will have so much useless junk on it that it will cost more to replace.

[jim49er]

I'm not going to be tracked by the miles I drive ? LOL That leads to the question of what is the real end game.

[pcosmar]

I want to move foward not backwards. I'f this stuff is in my car help me . I'M not a mechanic but some here may know how to defeat this.

If "this stuff" is in your car it would take more to remove it than you want to consider. it will be integrated into all of your cars electronic systems.
It will void your warranty. it is very likely illegal and it would take a complete reprogramming if the on-board computer and sensor systems.
That is after you identify where it is and how it is linked and interconnected to the various systems.

Build a car from parts. It is much easier.

[pcosmar]

LOL That leads to the question of what is the real end game.

That is not even in question. Total Control of your life.

[jim49er]

Build a car from parts. It is much easier.
Not going to happen my friend.

[Anti Federalist]

Having to dismantle your new car to make it stop doing what you don't want it to do is progress? This is moving forward?

If this is forward, what the hell is wrong with backward?

And where this thing is varies widely according to make and model. Yours might not even have it. Yours might have it so built in, if you took out the computer that does the dirty deed the car might not start and run.

You might also consider whether this will void your warranty or not.

Progress. Bah. 1969 was a very good year for American cars.


Ray Lahood is Nazi Big Brother and dictator for the Auto Insurance companies.

Have your Insurance rates gone down with all the; mandates, cameras, traffic cops, crumble barriers, safety devices, license plate scanners, radar, laser, airplanes, traffic control, new traffic law after law, after law, etc etc etc?

No, the insurance rates keep going up.


If "this stuff" is in your car it would take more to remove it than you want to consider. it will be integrated into all of your cars electronic systems.
It will void your warranty. it is very likely illegal and it would take a complete reprogramming if the on-board computer and sensor systems.
That is after you identify where it is and how it is linked and interconnected to the various systems.

Build a car from parts. It is much easier.

All of the above ^^^

[Anti Federalist]

That is not even in question. Total Control of your life.

Oh. And that too ^^^

[Anti Federalist]

OBDII has been the standard since 1996. Every new car sold in the US has OBDII. The early models were more rudimentary than the ones now, even though the same interface standard is being used.

Take it as a matter of fact that any 2010 or newer vehicle, will, at a minimum, be constantly recording and logging these parameters: speed, acceleration, tire speed, engine speed, braking, passengers, seat belt use, onboard electronics in use and all engine operating parameters.

Some, but not all (yet) also can do the following, among other things: track the vehicle location in real time, be shut down remotely without your knowledge or consent, have key codes changed remotely, and monitor in cabin conversations without your knowledge or approval. They can transmit this back to a central facility wirelessly.

Next Generation onboard diagnostics, OBD III, which will be mandated by government, will do all of the above and more.

And some people want "auto drive" cars that will require complete and total grid surveillance every second the vehicle is running.

This is progress...

[jim49er]

And some people want "auto drive" cars that will require complete and total grid surveillance every second the vehicle is running.
This is progress...

How do I get off that grid? LOL

[Anti Federalist]

And some people want "auto drive" cars that will require complete and total grid surveillance every second the vehicle is running.
This is progress...

How do I get off that grid? LOL

Pray for a solar flare of biblical proportions.

Srsly...

[jim49er]

I think a solar flare will bring the same old ideas, different head in charge. repeat

[Yieu]

I think a solar flare will bring the same old ideas, different head in charge. repeat

It would take out the satellites and many electronics.

[jim49er]

It would take out the satellites and many electronics.

I Don't get your point. Humans change at that point? All for the better Not

[Yieu]

It would take out the satellites and many electronics.

I Don't get your point. Humans change at that point? All for the better Not

The point is that it would be somewhat of a setback from the goal of a total surveillance grid. It would have to be rebuilt, at a minimum.

[VBRonPaulFan]

OBDII has been the standard since 1996. Every new car sold in the US has OBDII. The early models were more rudimentary than the ones now, even though the same interface standard is being used.

Take it as a matter of fact that any 2010 or newer vehicle, will, at a minimum, be constantly recording and logging these parameters: speed, acceleration, tire speed, engine speed, braking, passengers, seat belt use, onboard electronics in use and all engine operating parameters.

Some, but not all (yet) also can do the following, among other things: track the vehicle location in real time, be shut down remotely without your knowledge or consent, have key codes changed remotely, and monitor in cabin conversations without your knowledge or approval. They can transmit this back to a central facility wirelessly.

Next Generation onboard diagnostics, OBD III, which will be mandated by government, will do all of the above and more.

And some people want "auto drive" cars that will require complete and total grid surveillance every second the vehicle is running.

This is progress...

just to let you know, obd has exactly zero to do with the 'black boxes'. obd is strictly related to emissions control. also, these things aren't wired into every system in your car. why would this thing need to know the cylinder 3 exhaust temps, or if your car is running rich from your obd system? they're mostly just looking at the SRS system (system that controls your airbags/seatbelt tensioners), and maybe it might get some ecu readings in some cars. most foreign cars probably just tap the srs data to know if the airbags deployed, who was wearing seatbelts, and they'll probably get deceleration/acceleration data. just up until a couple of years ago toyota said their systems didn't work well enough for them to say the data would be usable. while some domestic cars sound like they're getting a LOT of data, most foreign cars seem to still be using this for its original purpose (post-accident data to help them build better cars), so aren't really tapping into stuff you'd wanna see in a court of law (long term data that could show habits, or more than like 15 seconds of data).

now a domestic car with onstar, that i'd be worried about. that thing could upload data somewhere whenever the logs got full.

[VBRonPaulFan]

How do I get off that grid? LOL

Take your Cheverlegs :D

or

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml05/05592a.jpg

or

http://www.ridegasscooters.com/images/sahara-gokart.jpg
^ hard to hide a black box on that thing hahaha

[acptulsa]

now a domestic car with onstar, that i'd be worried about. that thing could upload data somewhere whenever the logs got full.

You're right. Your whole post is right. There's a world of difference between a Mazda and a Cadillac. But I have two words for you--legislation and incrementalism.

Easier to nip things in the bud.

That said, yes, those cars which have GPS as an option, for example, have less of this and those which do have the option will feature a removable GPS system. However, one big computer is cheaper than two small ones, and 'multifunction' is increasingly the word.

[TheDrakeMan]

I would like a black box in my car, as long as it was voluntary and the free market was behind it.

[awake]

If this was a feature like air, tilt steering and Mp3 connection, would people care to pay more, would it be of any use to them?

[acptulsa]

If this was a feature like Air and Tilt steering would people care to pay more, would it be of any use to them?

Some would. Some love GPS, some hate it. Some love ABS, some hate them. Air bags should be an option, not standard.

[TruckinMike]

I found these two links over at the WRSA blog (http://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/)


U.S. to propose mandatory vehicle 'black boxes'
David Shepardson/ Detroit News Washington Bureau

The U.S. Transportation Department said today it will propose making vehicle "black boxes" mandatory in all vehicles by the end of the year.

The department's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has long considered whether to make black boxes, officially called event data recorders, or EDRs, mandatory. They collect data about the seconds leading up to a crash and can help investigators determine the cause.

...The rule, which takes effect in the 2013 model year, standardizes the information EDRs collect and makes retrieving the data easier. Devices must record 15 data elements, including vehicle deceleration, in specific formats.

http://detnews.com/article/20110526/AUTO01/105260436/1148/U.S.-to-propose-mandatory-vehicle-%C3%82%E2%80%98black-boxes%C3%82%E2%80%99

And

"A 21st Century Regulatory System"

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/05/26/21st-century-regulatory-system

...with a Cass Sunstein video to boot.:D

TMike

[VBRonPaulFan]

You're right. Your whole post is right. There's a world of difference between a Mazda and a Cadillac. But I have two words for you--legislation and incrementalism.

Easier to nip things in the bud.

That said, yes, those cars which have GPS as an option, for example, have less of this and those which do have the option will feature a removable GPS system. However, one big computer is cheaper than two small ones, and 'multifunction' is increasingly the word.

i see what you're saying, but i just want to clarify one thing. your car is made up of several 'computers' or systems. i'm pretty sure your ecu in most all cars runs completely independenty of your srs which runs completely seperate from the (mostly independent) electrical system that powers/runs your dash instruments/stereo/climate control stuff. you don't want a short in the cd player burning up a bunch of wiring for the harness for the ecu or burning up the ecu itself. they're all specialized systems, the ecu (computer that controls the motor functions while it runs) doesn't do it all, and i don't think that'd really be what you'd want.

this is at least from my experience, i stopped really working on cars in the early 2000's... so i don't have experience with newer cars and especially with cars with onstar. they could be wholly wired together to aggregate as much data as they want/need.

if you wanna play it safe, get a mid 90's honda/mistubushi/toyota/whatever and put a tom-tom in it. a car is just a way to get from point a to b and i never really understood while people like to pay absurd amounts of money for fancy shit they don't need that does shit they dont want. the more features that are put in newer cars, the more likely one of them is going to do something you dont like. keep is simple, stupid :) (K.I.S.S and you'll be happier)

[Anti Federalist]

If you are claiming that the two following statements are not true, and that the OBD function does not collect this data...


Take it as a matter of fact that any 2010 or newer vehicle, will, at a minimum, be constantly recording and logging these parameters: speed, acceleration, tire speed, engine speed, braking, passengers, seat belt use, onboard electronics in use and all engine operating parameters.

Some, but not all (yet) also can do the following, among other things: track the vehicle location in real time, be shut down remotely without your knowledge or consent, have key codes changed remotely, and monitor in cabin conversations without your knowledge or approval. They can transmit this back to a central facility wirelessly.

You are incorrect...

I can plug my laptop into your car's OBD port, and if it's 2010 maybe 2009 or newer, I can get all those parameters and more, logged back for days, depending on the model.

This is the one I use, and even it's not that sophisticated.

The newer ones coming on line log and retrieve even more data.

All through the OBD port.


•If your check engine or service engine soon light comes on, ProScan will tell you why. It could be as simple as a loose gas cap.
•ProScan can read and display freeze frame data, which is a snapshot of what your car was doing when an error occured.
•ProScan can clear all codes and freeze frame data.
•ProScan will let you reset the check engine light, effectively turning it off.
•ProScan can show you the status of your vehicle's readiness monitors, indicating emissions conformance.
•ProScan can show the number and location of oxygen sensors on the vehicle.
•ProScan can test your vehicle's oxygen sensors to verify correct functionality.
•ProScan can read the value of 169 supported parameters, such as vehicle speed, fuel trims, etc.
•ProScan can display real-time data in a variety of formats including tabular and plotted in a graph.
•ProScan can record and play back data.
•ProScan can calculate and display instantaneous fuel efficiency (MPG) information for any MAF-based vehicle.
•ProScan can calculate and display the real-time cost of a trip based upon distance and average fuel efficiency.
•ProScan can be used to learn the "sweet spot" of your vehicle, so that maximum fuel efficiency is obtained.
•ProScan can be used to calculate performance statistics such as 0-60 MPH, 1/4 mile time and trap speed, 1/8 mile, etc.
•ProScan can generate and export timeslips for sharing online.
•ProScan can estimate horsepower and torque curves and generate dyno charts.
•ProScan can generate printable diagnostic reports for a given vehicle.
•ProScan can switch between English and Metric units.

http://www.myscantool.com/



It's like the thread on light bulbs, where a couple of folks were arguing with me that there is no way an electrical grid monitoring system could tell what type of appliance was on a house grid, and I was posting the companies that were selling the equipment that did exactly that.

So, take it all with a grain of salt.


just to let you know, obd has exactly zero to do with the 'black boxes'. obd is strictly related to emissions control. also, these things aren't wired into every system in your car. why would this thing need to know the cylinder 3 exhaust temps, or if your car is running rich from your obd system? they're mostly just looking at the SRS system (system that controls your airbags/seatbelt tensioners), and maybe it might get some ecu readings in some cars. most foreign cars probably just tap the srs data to know if the airbags deployed, who was wearing seatbelts, and they'll probably get deceleration/acceleration data. just up until a couple of years ago toyota said their systems didn't work well enough for them to say the data would be usable. while some domestic cars sound like they're getting a LOT of data, most foreign cars seem to still be using this for its original purpose (post-accident data to help them build better cars), so aren't really tapping into stuff you'd wanna see in a court of law (long term data that could show habits, or more than like 15 seconds of data).

now a domestic car with onstar, that i'd be worried about. that thing could upload data somewhere whenever the logs got full.

[pcosmar]

So, take it all with a grain of salt.

http://image.ec21.com/image/dahuachem/oimg_GC04130087/Salt_Lick_Block.jpg

pcosmar is NOT ASE Certified

Proudly.