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doodle
05-22-2011, 09:53 AM
In 2006 war, when Israel was being defeated in its war with Lebanon, she did not really fully support Israel by not going to go fight with Israelis. In sharp contrast, Obama's first White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel actually did go there and help serve in Israeli military during the first gulf war before 9/11.

She has always looked a bit bewildered even back in the days when she used to be a democrat, has Michele Bachmann been cursed?


Michele Bachmann: If We Don’t Completely Support Israel, God Will Curse Us

Doug Mataconis · Friday, May 20, 2011


Apparently, Michele Bachmann bases her foreign policy views on obscure quotes from a book written 5,000 years ago:

At a Republican Jewish Coalition event in Los Angeles last week, Rep. Michele Bachmann offered a candid view of her positions on Israel: Support for Israel is handed down by God and if the United States pulls back its support, America will cease to exist.


http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/michele-bachmann-if-we-dont-completely-support-israel-god-will-curse-us/

Badger Paul
05-22-2011, 09:55 AM
In other words, she's a "curser" and there are a lot of them as Pat Buchanan found out.

swissaustrian
05-22-2011, 10:01 AM
Bachmann spent time working on a kibbutz in Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Bachmann#Early_life

doodle
05-22-2011, 10:05 AM
Never had looked at her wiki, interesting.



A kibbutz (Hebrew: קיבוץ, קִבּוּץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; plural kibbutzim) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises.[1] Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.



She was a member of the final graduating class of Oral Roberts' law school, and was part of a group of faculty, staff, and students who moved the ORU law school library to what is now Regent University. From 1988 to 1993, Bachmann was an attorney representing the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). She left her position with the IRS to become a full-time mother.

swissaustrian
05-22-2011, 10:09 AM
Never had looked at her wiki, interesting.
The IRS involvement is a total contradiction of a tea partier!

doodle
05-22-2011, 10:12 AM
The IRS involvement is a total contradiction of a tea partier!

As is probably her earlier involvement in Kibbutz back when she was involved.


Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.

swissaustrian
05-22-2011, 10:14 AM
And she voted for the partiot act: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?288748-Video-Judge-Napolitano-asks-Bachmann-why-she-voted-for-PATRIOT-Act&highlight=bachmann+irs

acptulsa
05-22-2011, 10:16 AM
Has she ever cited the chapter and verse that leads her to this conclusion? Because Revelations has a phrase to describe those who put words in God's mouth.

YumYum
05-22-2011, 10:24 AM
According to The Minnesota Independent Bachmann took the opportunity at an event last week in Los Angeles to tell the Republican Jewish Coalition:


“I am convinced in my heart and in my mind that if the United States fails to stand with Israel, that is the end of the United States . . . [W]e have to show that we are inextricably entwined, that as a nation we have been blessed because of our relationship with Israel, and if we reject Israel, then there is a curse that comes into play. And my husband and I are both Christians, and we believe very strongly the verse from Genesis [Genesis 12:3], we believe very strongly that nations also receive blessings as they bless Israel. It is a strong and beautiful principle.”

She goes on to misquote the Bible and John Adams to support her insane position.

http://www.politicususa.com/en/michele-bachmann-manages-to-misquote-both-scripture-and-john-adams

AndrewD
05-22-2011, 10:25 AM
In other words, she's a "curser" and there are a lot of them as Pat Buchanan found out.

Didn't Pat Buchanan get violently destroyed by Rachel Maddow? Just sayin bro.

doodle
05-22-2011, 10:47 AM
Didn't Pat Buchanan get violently destroyed by Rachel Maddow? Just sayin bro.

Bachmann would probably say that God will curse those who stand with Rachel Maddow because she supports gay marriage.
Bachman had compared gay marriage to "evil".

acptulsa
05-22-2011, 10:59 AM
Well, she quoted Genesis 12:3, in which God is talking to Abraham.

The community Abraham founded is gone. There is no continuity between that and what has usurped the name, except tor geography and the name itself.

But, yeah, selling that can be like pulling teeth. Which, I am convinced, is why the thing was created in 1947.

Cleaner44
05-22-2011, 12:08 PM
In other words, she's a "curser" and there are a lot of them as Pat Buchanan found out.

Curser... I like that. Friggin nutball too.

doodle
05-22-2011, 12:41 PM
In other words, she's a "curser" and there are a lot of them as Pat Buchanan found out.

This term you coined is going places, it's going to get as popular as "birther" term in days ahead.

People, Michelle Bachmann is curser lol

YumYum
05-22-2011, 12:50 PM
"The Curser Conspiracy" hahaha!

Flash
05-22-2011, 01:54 PM
Christian Zionists really love to harp on that, "God will bless those who bless Israel, and curse those who curse Israel" verse. If they stopped and thought about it, they would realize America has been continually declining since we have been supporting Israel in the 1940's. Our economy sucks, our culture is going to hell, the population is turning more and more atheistic and anti-christian, etc.. So either God is a liar, or the Israel that God is referring to has nothing to do with the modern State of Israel. In fact we could be cursing Israel without knowing about it.

Oh, and there was a State of Israel in 100 A.D. that was destroyed. Where in the bible does it say Israel will rise twice as a nation after Jesus dies? Seems like Christians have completely misunderstood the prophecy.

swissaustrian
05-22-2011, 02:15 PM
I don´t think that the bible refers to a "nation" anywhere". The concept of a nation state was developed in the 19th century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state#History_and_origins

In general, i have the following opinion: A state that guarantees religious freedom should not invoke any religious document as a justification for a certain policy. Enlightenment constitutions (like the US constitution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution#Enlightenment_constitutions ) are based on the idea of a clear separation of state and religions.

ILVMYYF
05-22-2011, 03:11 PM
Are these the sort of tactics Dr Paul would support in politically defining Michele Bachmann? Do we want to convince people who are currently Dems or mainstream Repubs to consider our point of view, then criticize them for past beliefs after we win them over? Michele Bachmann from what I know is an outspoken conservative in a very blue state. Should we say: Oh of course Dr Paul is a Republican, he has to be to have any chance of winning in TX. I don't believe he ran on the Liberterian ticket did he? Hmmm, that seems very suspicious to me. He should run as a proud Liberterian don't you think. I notice Michele Bachmann doesn't hide her conservative beliefs and run as a Dem to get elected in MN. Sounds pretty rediculous don't you think?
And is this Rahm Immanuel comment any different than the racial smears used against Dr Paul in the past. Can't we lift the conversation to a higher level befitting the impeccable standards of conversation set by Dr Paul. These are the kind of ad hominym smear tactics I would expect from the left. BTW, I believe Dr Paul bases much of his political philosophy on the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and The Federalist Papers (much of the underpinning of which is based on an obscure book written 5,000 years ago). As well as the very teachings of that obscure book written 5,000 years ago (ex. his unyeilding defense of the most helpless and innocent members of our society: the unborn). In fact, that comprises the major reason I am supporting Dr Paul as well as encouraging everyone I know and work with to give Mr Paul an honest look. FWIW, I have heard similar comments ie "...looked a bit bewildered" applied to Dr Paul (by Hannity et al). I am much more interested in the substance of an individual than how "bewildered" they look at any given moment. Do you find Ms Bachmann to be lacking in substance? Are we talking policy and core beliefs or looking "mentally sharp" as our rationale for supporting someone for the position of POTUS. If we're going vote for who looks most Presidential lets all get behind Mittcare. And, oh yes, Rahm Immanuel is a fine example of a true American...he is much more patriotic than Michele Bachmann. Sorry Doodle, I realize you are a senior member of this board, but in this case could your post be more petty and juvenile? ILVMYYF


In 2006 war, when Israel was being defeated in its war with Lebanon, she did not really fully support Israel by not going to go fight with Israelis. In sharp contrast, Obama's first White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel actually did go there and help serve in Israeli military during the first gulf war before 9/11.

She has always looked a bit bewildered even back in the days when she used to be a democrat, has Michele Bachmann been cursed?



http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/michele-bachmann-if-we-dont-completely-support-israel-god-will-curse-us/

swissaustrian
05-22-2011, 03:25 PM
ILVMYYF:
1.) Welcome to the forums :)
2.) In my opinion, telling the truth about a candidate´s position on an issue is not a smear tactic. We as Ron Paul supporters would love to see the media telling the truth about him. I collect information on opposing candidates in order to inform potential voters. That´s an application of the basic moral principle of reciprocity (treat others like you want to be treated). This so called "golden rule" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule ) is also the guidance of the philosophy of liberty according to Ron Paul.
3.) I don´t deny that doodle´s post might be smearing.

ssantoro
05-22-2011, 04:57 PM
Genesis 12: 1-3
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Christians who use this verse for the purpose of war do not know the Bible or the God who wrote it. God was declaring to Abraham that through his seed would come the Christ (Messiah) and that the all the nations of the earth would be blessed with Salvation through Jesus Christ. God was speaking of a spiritual blessing of mercy and love for man, not some blessing for supporting an earthly kingdom. Jesus told Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world. Therefore the verse of blessing was to those who would accept God’s gift of salvation and cursing for those who reject it, in the next life.

In the sermon on the mount Jesus said:

2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, 3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. 7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. 13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

I don't read anything about bombing innocent women and children to protect any earthly kingdom. What a load of crap.

http://www.christiansforpeace.org/theo/quotes.html

anaconda
05-22-2011, 05:30 PM
The IRS involvement is a total contradiction of a tea partier!

Maybe she was keeping her enemies "closer."

eduardo89
05-22-2011, 05:30 PM
so America was cursed 1776-1948?

Sola_Fide
05-22-2011, 06:11 PM
so America was cursed 1776-1948?



Dispensationalists don't understand that the verses that applied to the nation of Israel in the Old Covenant largely apply to the church in the New Covenant. So verses that say this:



“I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all people on the earth will be blessed through you.” -Genesis 12:2-3

...do not apply to the nation-state of Israel anymore, they apply to the ones who have been grafted in, the body of believers, the church.

Israel=the body of believers in the New Covenant. The Old system of things has passed away and we have a better covenant with a High Priest who needed only to make one sacrifice for His people. All of the types and shadows of the Old Covenant always pointed to the New and better covenant that we have now.

Dispensationalists think that God has two people, with two covenants, with two purposes. This is not Biblical. And we have a bunch of politicians today who don't care enough to undergo a critical study of theology and its implications.

Badger Paul
05-22-2011, 06:41 PM
"that is the end of the United States . . . [W]e have to show that we are inextricably entwined,"

This kind of sentiment has to be fought, there's is no way around it.

HarryBrowneLives
05-22-2011, 06:52 PM
Hey, maybe she'll stop supporting Israel!:D

Flash
05-22-2011, 06:59 PM
Watch, now the next economic or environmental disaster will be attributed to us cursing Israel. I've really had enough of these Christian Zionists.

Sola_Fide
05-22-2011, 07:20 PM
Watch, now the next economic or environmental disaster will be attributed to us cursing Israel. I've really had enough of these Christian Zionists.

Yes. Christian zionism has been a scourge. What people need to understand is that proper theology is neccessary for proper policy. Every political movement has at its foundation a theological movement. The Liberty movement that WE ARE NOW IN, has at its foundation the theology of Reformed Christianity.

Theology is the ruling disciple. What you believe about God (even when you don't believe there is one) informs all of your other views about philosophy, politics, day-to-day life, etc....

doodle
05-22-2011, 07:22 PM
Watch, now the next economic or environmental disaster will be attributed to us cursing Israel. I've really had enough of these Christian Zionists.

Be careful what you wish for:

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef: Katrina is Bush’s Punishment for Supporting Gaza Disengagement
Sep 9, 2005 ... Tweet Tweet Related posts:Alan Dershowitz Accuses Rabbis Supporting Goldstone of Being 'Anti-Israel,' Pro-Hamas, Guilty of 'Blood...
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2005/09/09/rabbi-ovadia-yosef-katrina-is-bushs-punishment-for-supporting-gaza-disengagement/

Did God send Katrina as judgment for Gaza?
Sep 7, 2005 ... JERUSALEM While most religious authorities seem to agree one cannot discern the intentions of God, there has been talk in some circles here ...
www.wnd.com/?pageId=32196

Gaza Pullout and Hurricane Katrina
Aug 31, 2005 ... Strong, biblical article on the possible link between the Gaza pullout in Israel and hurricane Katrina.
www.bible-knowledge.com/gaza/

doodle
05-22-2011, 07:51 PM
Are these the sort of tactics Dr Paul would support in politically defining Michele Bachmann? Do we want to convince people who are currently Dems or mainstream Repubs to consider our point of view, then criticize them for past beliefs after we win them over? Michele Bachmann from what I know is an outspoken conservative in a very blue state. ...

Hi ILVMYYF ( btw, what does YF stand for?), stating a candidate's factual position on an issue is not "smear", that would be if someone distorted her position. Every thing stated in OP is based on facts plus my personal view of her dogmatic, illogical, childish worldview. I was only slightly offended that she said that if her medieval 5000 years religious extremist view was not adopted as US foreign policy, my country will be cursed and will cease to exist. So I just asked if she is cursed because her rhetoric does not match her own actions as far as completeness of her support for a foreign country occupying another people goes.

Anti Federalist
05-22-2011, 07:55 PM
Oy...

ILVMYYF
05-22-2011, 08:09 PM
Drudge Headline on Osama Threat: 'OUR ATTACKS WILL CONTINUE AS LONG AS YOU SUPPORT ISRAEL'
Doodle, do you not realize we live in a world governed by the aggressive use of force? Do you really think that the Muslims just want us to play nice and they will leave us alone? If so, try telling the Spanish that. Have you ever read the history of the Cordoba Mosque? If not, I suggest you take the time to read it. There is only one thing that will stop radical islam....the conversion or death of all infidels...including you...That is their religion. If you find that to be a superior philosophy to "Zionist Christianity" as some call it., I don't know what to tell you.

doodle
05-22-2011, 08:19 PM
ILYMYYF, that is interesting subject but starting this debate in this thread could derail it.

If you would like to discuss that topic, there are few different threads on that such as following, we can discuss it there if you are interested:

Romney: They hate us because we have freedoms, will make America a Police State

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?290227-Romney-They-hate-us-because-we-have-freedoms-will-make-America-a-Police-State&p=3241123&viewfull=1#post3241123

ILVMYYF
05-22-2011, 09:49 PM
"she said that if her medieval 5000 years religious extremist view was not adopted as US foreign policy, my country will be cursed and will cease to exist." I wasn't aware she said that...sorry. I have found that if I make a statement to attempt to convince and the recipient is not receptive the first time, a restatement of my position will not change their opinion on the matter. So I rarely try.
I don't see 'smear' stated or implied in what you have reposted. My only desire was to elevate the conversation befitting our candidate and his vastly superior positions on most everything.
The "YF" stands for what it sounds like phonetically: Wife. (It was the only way I could fit it on my license plate):)

Chester Copperpot
05-22-2011, 09:51 PM
She might want to question whether her BIblical interpretation for the support of Israel means supporting Israel or supporting the government of Israel.

She can support Israel while not supporting the government of Israel.

Chester Copperpot
05-22-2011, 09:53 PM
"she said that if her medieval 5000 years religious extremist view was not adopted as US foreign policy, my country will be cursed and will cease to exist." I wasn't aware she said that...sorry. I have found that if I make a statement to attempt to convince and the recipient is not receptive the first time, a restatement of my position will not change their opinion on the matter. So I rarely try.
I don't see 'smear' stated or implied in what you have reposted. My only desire was to elevate the conversation befitting our candidate and his vastly superior positions on most everything.
The "YF" stands for what it sounds like phonetically: Wife. (It was the only way I could fit it on my license plate):)

Ben Franklin would agree with you! :)

Live_Free_Or_Die
05-22-2011, 10:00 PM
I am also digging the term "Curser"...

ILVMYYF
05-22-2011, 10:00 PM
Thank you but I rarely debate as I stated in my previous post. In my experience it never(read:very rarely) convinces anyone to change their their thinking. It does give others a free shot to blast away at my statements, but that's OK, it just my opinion after all.
I thought the Drudge headline was from the bottom of your 9:53AM post in this thread. I'll try to be more careful...:o Kind Regards, Russ

ILVMYYF
05-22-2011, 10:12 PM
Thank you Mike...I'm in...

Live_Free_Or_Die
05-23-2011, 02:24 AM
Thank you but I rarely debate as I stated in my previous post. In my experience it never(read:very rarely) convinces anyone to change their their thinking. It does give others a free shot to blast away at my statements, but that's OK, it just my opinion after all.
I thought the Drudge headline was from the bottom of your 9:53AM post in this thread. I'll try to be more careful...:o Kind Regards, Russ

This forum engages in healthy debate and it does influence opinion... If you bring evidence to support an assertion. Consistent irrefutable evidence is king.

Most of the people on this forum are very smart people. If you go back and look at threads about... the Constitution... the threads are littered with citations from SCOTUS, Federalist/Anti-Federalist Papers, convention notes, Black's commentaries on English common law, etc. What people around here generally do not go for is accepting an argument on faith... except religion which is faith based...

Or look at the mountains of evidence debated in 911 threads, etc.

Yes you can likely to expect statements to get blasted. Everyone here has had their posts blasted out of the water at some point, even the forum veterans. It only makes your a stronger debater and helps articulate your points better.

I don't think new people realize how tame this forum is compared to how it used to be in 2007/2008. Some of these new people must think a tent of really diverse Ron Paul supporters got along like peas in a pod in 2007. Not even close. The vast majority of people on this forum have changed their opinions about things because they have engaged in debate. This forum has some real knock down drag out threads. The debate in this forum is extremely civilized in 2011 compared to 2007.

ILVMYYF
05-23-2011, 07:43 AM
Good for you Live_Free...It sounds like you are a highly intelligent group that is well versed in all things judicial and political, as well as quite articulate and skilled in debating...It virtually shines through in the posts in this thread. I was merely stating MY philosophy in that regard and attempting, however feebly, to explain why I hold to it...I think you have me in my place now OK.
Kind Regards,
Russ

acptulsa
05-23-2011, 07:55 AM
I just don't see how failing to give the government of Israel 47% (more or less) of our foreign aid budget is the same as 'cursing Israel'.

A curse is one thing. A lack of military welfare is something else.

angelatc
05-23-2011, 08:00 AM
Which country is she running for President of, Israel or the US?

acptulsa
05-23-2011, 08:02 AM
Which country is she running for President of, Israel or the US?

Given the amount of campaign contributions 'Israel-firsters' get, you basically have to run for the love of one before you run for the other. We're going to have to give until it hurts to keep up.

ILVMYYF
05-23-2011, 09:04 AM
To the best of my knowledge she's not running for President of anything...

GuerrillaXXI
05-23-2011, 09:56 AM
I'd like to know when Christian Zionism because the official state religion of the USA. It must be, considering the way it's used to influence policy.

Besides, the claim that the modern state of Israel has special status in God's eyes is grossly contrary to the Bible:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?292733-Ron-Paul-and-Israel-How-to-win-over-concerned-Christians.&p=3272151#post3272151

I'm not religious anymore, but I was a Christian long enough to understand my own Bible.

Meatwasp
05-23-2011, 10:10 AM
When will people realize "total Freedom is total responsibility". Time for all foreign countries to wean themselves of America's tit.

Romulus
05-23-2011, 12:37 PM
Maybe she was keeping her enemies "closer."

Doubt that!

This woman is insane. She makes Palin look great.

Bachman vs Palin

I think we should have brackets for the primary, sort of like the final 4. Let the candidates square off head to head then crown a winner. :)

libertygrl
05-23-2011, 12:56 PM
I'd like to know when Christian Zionism because the official state religion of the USA. It must be, considering the way it's used to influence policy.

Besides, the claim that the modern state of Israel has special status in God's eyes is grossly contrary to the Bible:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?292733-Ron-Paul-and-Israel-How-to-win-over-concerned-Christians.&p=3272151#post3272151

I'm not religious anymore, but I was a Christian long enough to understand my own Bible.

Geez, where do these people come from????? I'm Christian too but you can't mix religion with politics. Seems there are many politicians who are Christian Zionists today, which only means more never-ending wars. Not all churches are happy about these people:

New York, December 12, 2008 -- "Christian Zionism" is a dangerous movement that distorts the teachings of the Church, fosters fear and hatred of Muslims and non-Western Christians, and has negative consequences for Middle East Peace.

A new brochure, Why We Should Be Concerned About Christian Zionism, by the Interfaith Relations Commission of the National Council of Churches (in English and Spanish) is now available as an educational tool for communions, congregations and other groups who want to share these warnings with their members.

Christian Zionism, while ostensibly a Christian movement in support of Israel, actually has the opposite effect. This brochure shows Christian Zionism to be a misguided ideology that considers the State of Israel divinely ordained with the role of ushering in the end of history, where unconverted Jews and Christians of "questionable status" will be judged by God's wrath. In fact, the brochure points out, many evangelical Christians and Israelis reject the notion.

"The danger of this ideology is that it is a manipulation of Christian scripture and teaching," said Dr. Antonios Kireopoulos, NCC Senior Program Director for Interfaith Relations. "Unfortunately it has influence in American churches, to the point where many well-meaning Christians are swayed to support particularly destructive directions in U.S. foreign policy with regard to the Middle East."

In its narrowest form, Christian Zionism advocates preserving control of historic Palestine, including Gaza and the West Bank, for the Jewish people alone, rejecting any peace settlement based on a two-state solution.

An effect of the Christian Zionist ideology is that Christians in the Middle East and Muslims are viciously stereotyped. Many scholars have concluded that the Christian Zionist ideology has no roots in the traditional teachings of the church. The National Council of Churches has historically and consistently supported the security needs and rights of both Israelis and Palestinians.

The brochure was introduced during recent meetings of the National Council of Churches Governing Board and the General Assembly of the NCC and Church World Service. http://www.ncccusa.org/news/081202christianzionismbrochure.html

The Moravian
05-23-2011, 06:13 PM
First off, solely religious views don't persuade anyone who doesn't already hold them, and using scriptural quotes to prefer any nation or people group over any other only gives your church, religious group or scripture a bad name, for no meaningful purpose. I try to explain my opinions and positions with reason and logic, using the values of those listening whenever I can. Science, observation, agreed upon inalienable rights. That's the approach I take with abortion and other so-called social issues that are usually defined as being "based on religious beliefs".

Bachmann's unyielding support for the nation of Israel makes no sense outside of a specific belief in the Old Testament definition of Israel (which has it's inherent contradiction anyway), that is the only way the position makes any sense, since it cannot be based on inalienable rights, self-evident truths, strategic alliances or anything else I can think of.

That said, for those who support the Christian Zionist position, I will try to answer based on scripture. I do not see a connection between the Genesis verse and the modern state of Israel, therefore I don't support the conclusions that come from it. In Romans 9 the Apostle Paul writes that "they are not all Israel who are from Israel, nor are they all children (of Israel) because they are the offspring of Abraham, but 'in Isaac your seed shall be called'. That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of promise are counted as the seed." (Romans 9:6-8) It goes on in chapter 9, 10 and 11 explaining what God's purpose was for Israel in the promises of Genesis, and how they are "two vessels" taken from "one lump", etc.

I also want to point out that the original post at OutsidetheBeltway is stating Bachmann's position more dramatically than I would, though the meaning is basically the same. In the headline they attribute to her: "If We Don’t Completely Support Israel, God Will Curse Us", but what she actually says is, "if the United States fails to stand with Israel, that is the end of the United States. [W]e have to show that we are inextricably entwined, that as a nation we have been blessed because of our relationship with Israel, and if we reject Israel, then there is a curse that comes into play." She is nuancing it quite a bit, while the headline cuts to the chase more dramatically.

Her supporters would consider what the headline is saying as misleading, just as we considered Rudy Giuliani's infamous accusation of Dr. Paul's reference to blowback on 9/11 to be a distortion of what Paul actually said. It isn't really the same kind of twist, but to the average poor reasoning person, it would be considered equally disingenuous. Please understand me, I'm not equating the issue as the same, I'm talking ONLY about the exaggeration factor of simplifying Dr. Paul's statement with simplifying Ms. Bachmann's statement. Her position is closer to the headline statement, while Paul's statement was twisted much further by Rudy. But too many people will see both as being distortions.

In the end, I wouldn't repeat the wording of the "OutsidetheBeltway" headline, but only quote Bachmann directly: "if the United States fails to stand with Israel, that is the end of the United States." Her position is bad enough how she words it, so there's no reason to dramatize it any more than that.

The Moravian
05-23-2011, 06:26 PM
Geez, where do these people come from????? I'm Christian too but you can't mix religion with politics. Seems there are many politicians who are Christian Zionists today, which only means more never-ending wars. Not all churches are happy about these people:

New York, December 12, 2008 -- "Christian Zionism" is a dangerous movement that distorts the teachings of the Church, fosters fear and hatred of Muslims and non-Western Christians, and has negative consequences for Middle East Peace.

A new brochure, Why We Should Be Concerned About Christian Zionism, by the Interfaith Relations Commission of the National Council of Churches (in English and Spanish) is now available as an educational tool for communions, congregations and other groups who want to share these warnings with their members.

Christian Zionism, while ostensibly a Christian movement in support of Israel, actually has the opposite effect. This brochure shows Christian Zionism to be a misguided ideology that considers the State of Israel divinely ordained with the role of ushering in the end of history, where unconverted Jews and Christians of "questionable status" will be judged by God's wrath. In fact, the brochure points out, many evangelical Christians and Israelis reject the notion.

"The danger of this ideology is that it is a manipulation of Christian scripture and teaching," said Dr. Antonios Kireopoulos, NCC Senior Program Director for Interfaith Relations. "Unfortunately it has influence in American churches, to the point where many well-meaning Christians are swayed to support particularly destructive directions in U.S. foreign policy with regard to the Middle East."

In its narrowest form, Christian Zionism advocates preserving control of historic Palestine, including Gaza and the West Bank, for the Jewish people alone, rejecting any peace settlement based on a two-state solution.

An effect of the Christian Zionist ideology is that Christians in the Middle East and Muslims are viciously stereotyped. Many scholars have concluded that the Christian Zionist ideology has no roots in the traditional teachings of the church. The National Council of Churches has historically and consistently supported the security needs and rights of both Israelis and Palestinians.

The brochure was introduced during recent meetings of the National Council of Churches Governing Board and the General Assembly of the NCC and Church World Service. http://www.ncccusa.org/news/081202christianzionismbrochure.html

Thanks for the link to the brochure. Sadly, most "bible believing Christians" will reject it out of hand because it comes from the National Council of Churches, which is not seen as credible in the churches that are most likely to teach any form of zionism.

My church may be one of the few evangelical churches (part of the Conservative Baptist Association) that doesn't teach any form of zionism and has an equal number of members supporting Palestinian rights as Jewish zionism.

Badger Paul
05-23-2011, 07:55 PM
Christian Zionism is a heresy and would I'd vote for Obama than have a heretic in the White House.

doodle
05-24-2011, 03:40 PM
Geez, where do these people come from????? I'm Christian too but you can't mix religion with politics. Seems there are many politicians who are Christian Zionists today, which only means more never-ending wars. Not all churches are happy about these people:

New York, December 12, 2008 -- "Christian Zionism" is a dangerous movement that distorts the teachings of the Church, fosters fear and hatred of Muslims and non-Western Christians, and has negative consequences for Middle East Peace.

A new brochure, Why We Should Be Concerned About Christian Zionism, by the Interfaith Relations Commission of the National Council of Churches (in English and Spanish) is now available as an educational tool for communions, congregations and other groups who want to share these warnings with their members.

Christian Zionism, while ostensibly a Christian movement in support of Israel, actually has the opposite effect. This brochure shows Christian Zionism to be a misguided ideology that considers the State of Israel divinely ordained with the role of ushering in the end of history, where unconverted Jews and Christians of "questionable status" will be judged by God's wrath. In fact, the brochure points out, many evangelical Christians and Israelis reject the notion.

"The danger of this ideology is that it is a manipulation of Christian scripture and teaching," said Dr. Antonios Kireopoulos, NCC Senior Program Director for Interfaith Relations. "Unfortunately it has influence in American churches, to the point where many well-meaning Christians are swayed to support particularly destructive directions in U.S. foreign policy with regard to the Middle East."

In its narrowest form, Christian Zionism advocates preserving control of historic Palestine, including Gaza and the West Bank, for the Jewish people alone, rejecting any peace settlement based on a two-state solution.

An effect of the Christian Zionist ideology is that Christians in the Middle East and Muslims are viciously stereotyped. Many scholars have concluded that the Christian Zionist ideology has no roots in the traditional teachings of the church. The National Council of Churches has historically and consistently supported the security needs and rights of both Israelis and Palestinians.

The brochure was introduced during recent meetings of the National Council of Churches Governing Board and the General Assembly of the NCC and Church World Service. http://www.ncccusa.org/news/081202christianzionismbrochure.html

That was a good read. People are getting informed gradually.



Christian Zionism is a heresy and would I'd vote for Obama than have a heretic in the White House.

But how many of US Christians see it that way?
I think I'll condoct a poll in GP to figure how many people are "cursers" and how many are not in relation to application of personal beliefs in US foreign policy.

doodle
05-25-2011, 01:41 AM
In other words, she's a "curser" and there are a lot of them as Pat Buchanan found out.

Congrats, this is just start on the birth of a new term :)

http://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=612&source=hp&q=curser+israel+foreign+policy&btnG=Search&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1#hl=en&biw=1280&bih=612&sa=X&ei=MLHcTZ3fHYPTgQel8cH9Dw&sqi=2&ved=0CBkQvgUoAA&q=curser+foreign+policy&nfpr=1&fp=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&cad=b

BUSHLIED
05-25-2011, 02:22 AM
if true...I have lost respect for her...she does a good job tauting the tea-party message and I thought she was on-board with Ron. But lately, I am not so sure about her...all the support Israel stuff is obviously disingenuous, people just say that so they avoid the wrath of the media and claims of anti-Semitic...the jews run smear campaigns...I supposed they have learned it well considering they have been the most smeared group..hypocrites!

USAF_Saylor
05-25-2011, 04:44 AM
As we know, there are a lot of so-called "patriot" or "tea party" forums out there and it puzzles me to find so much constitutional ignorance on them. The amount of support for Bachmann and Cain is frightening.

I've been working hard for months at one of them; debating candidates and ideas, the usual. Found out today that I have been SUSPENDED from http://www.patriotactionnetwork.com/ without one word as to why. This happened to another RP supporter, as well. The neo-conservative Right will do anything to quash the voice of Liberty.

The Patriot Action Network is a large site with about 125,000 visitors per month! How about we get some more Ron Paul supporters in there? http://www.patriotactionnetwork.com/

doodle
05-26-2011, 04:49 PM
In related news:


As Bush flies to Israel, 'rogue' tornadoes rip Midwest US

The Associated Press described the storms as "a freak cluster of tornados."

A sheriff in Wisconsin's Kenosha County, where 11 houses were destroyed, told the news agency he had "never seen damage like this in the summertime when we have potential for tornadoes.

Many pro-Israel Christians believe that God has and will use "natural" disasters to judge America (and other nations) for trying to steal Israel's land for the creation of a 23rd Arab state called Palestine.

http://www.raptureintheairnow.com/rita-main-discussion-forum/another-israel-visit-to-obama-and-tornadoes-march-across-us-tomorrow

http://www.jnewswire.com/article/2294

Porter: Tornadoes Due To Legal Abortion, Israel Policy

http://www.politicususa.com/en/the-darker-side-of-yhwh-janet-porter-says-tornadoes-were-god%E2%80%99s-wrath

american.swan
05-26-2011, 04:59 PM
If Michele Bachmann doesn't leave the US House, along with her neocon bastard friends, the USA is doomed.

doodle
05-27-2011, 09:45 PM
If Michele Bachmann doesn't leave the US House, along with her neocon bastard friends, the USA is doomed.

That is scary prospect.

cindy25
06-02-2011, 04:04 AM
I think we should follow the constitution, and stop supporting religions. Aid to Israel supports the Jewish religion.

doodle
06-02-2011, 06:28 PM
Hard to disagree with that Cindy. Well put.

doodle
06-07-2011, 10:42 PM
And she voted for the partiot act: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?288748-Video-Judge-Napolitano-asks-Bachmann-why-she-voted-for-PATRIOT-Act&highlight=bachmann+irs

She's for secure police state.

Jim Casey
06-08-2011, 04:17 AM
She's for secure police state.
Parking the police would help create jobs.

Noob
06-08-2011, 08:11 AM
If Michele Bachmann doesn't leave the US House, along with her neocon bastard friends, the USA is doomed.

Why don't the Neocons just move to Israel and renounce their American citizenship and become a citizens of Israel?

doodle
06-08-2011, 10:12 PM
Parking the police would help create jobs.

Interesting.

ifthenwouldi
06-08-2011, 10:49 PM
Dispensationalists don't understand that the verses that applied to the nation of Israel in the Old Covenant largely apply to the church in the New Covenant. So verses that say this:

...do not apply to the nation-state of Israel anymore, they apply to the ones who have been grafted in, the body of believers, the church.

Israel=the body of believers in the New Covenant. The Old system of things has passed away and we have a better covenant with a High Priest who needed only to make one sacrifice for His people. All of the types and shadows of the Old Covenant always pointed to the New and better covenant that we have now.

Dispensationalists think that God has two people, with two covenants, with two purposes. This is not Biblical. And we have a bunch of politicians today who don't care enough to undergo a critical study of theology and its implications.

^^^This, this, 1,000,000 times, this. The problem is poor theology.

Jim Casey
06-09-2011, 02:42 AM
^^^This, this, 1,000,000 times, this. The problem is poor theology.
There are many interesting principles applied by The Church. We're looking for a few good nones, send them in. Gang Zero is Organized behind unrolled flaps.

doodle
06-11-2011, 01:45 PM
^^^This, this, 1,000,000 times, this. The problem is poor theology.

Or bit more accurately..people who construct and follow that theology are not so rich mentally. It's like you know "guns don't kill people".

Jim Casey
06-11-2011, 06:26 PM
Or bit more accurately..people who construct and follow that theology are not so rich mentally. It's like you know "guns don't kill people".
What matters is their suggestibility and the Bachmann campaign's ability to capitalize upon that.

libertybrewcity
06-11-2011, 06:45 PM
oh no! :O

Jim Casey
06-11-2011, 06:48 PM
oh no! :O
Oh Yeah!
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/oh-yeah_koolaid.gif

showpan
06-11-2011, 07:54 PM
Why don't the Neocons just move to Israel and renounce their American citizenship and become a citizens of Israel?

Because they want to rule the world, as evident by their use of the word "empire" on their old PNAC site.

Jim Casey
06-11-2011, 07:57 PM
Because they want to rule the world, as evident by their use of the word "empire" on their old PNAC site.
Empiricism is nothing new to conservatives.

acptulsa
06-11-2011, 08:00 PM
Empiricism is nothing new to conservatives.

True enough, though it has nothing to do with what showpan said. Imperialism, meanwhile, is also nothing new to neocons. Or any American these days.

Jim Casey
06-11-2011, 08:14 PM
True enough, though it has nothing to do with what showpan said. Imperialism, meanwhile, is also nothing new to neocons. Or any American these days.
Not enuf Americans understanding the value of paying Protectionism its rightful dues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDsfa7XyUY

swissaustrian
06-28-2011, 06:41 AM
Watch this video:
She basicly says that all the PEACEFUL revolutions in the arab world DANGEROUS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWYPRzqd25Q

loveshiscountry
06-28-2011, 07:18 AM
In 2006 war, when Israel was being defeated in its war with Lebanon, she did not really fully support Israel by not going to go fight with Israelis. In sharp contrast, Obama's first White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel actually did go there and help serve in Israeli military during the first gulf war before 9/11.

She has always looked a bit bewildered even back in the days when she used to be a democrat, has Michele Bachmann been cursed?



http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/michele-bachmann-if-we-dont-completely-support-israel-god-will-curse-us/

Michelle, you have no power here, be gone, before someone drops a house on you too.

musicmax
06-28-2011, 07:20 AM
Since Israel is God's chosen land, any help we could offer Him in protecting it would be redundant at best and interference at worst.

falconplayer11
06-28-2011, 08:26 AM
The coming of Christ ended the Jews claim to being the exclusive people of God. It is the Christian's duty to protect all innocent people, regardless of their nationality. To defend Israel because they are Israel is not in accord with Christ teachings...it is discriminatory and an offense to Christ, who died for all people, not just the Jews (indeed, the Gentiles were more receptive of Christ than the Jews).

Therefore, Michele Bachmann is wrong. The Bible is not to be used to make policy...especially the Old Testament, which is just the history of Israel. Christ teaching is to the individual, and calls for us to be humble and defend all innocent people.

SpiritOf1776_J4
12-06-2011, 02:37 PM
In other words, she's a "curser" and there are a lot of them as Pat Buchanan found out.

This is the primary issue against Bachmann and all the other neocon candidates. Total Christian apostasy.

New Jerusalem comes from above. Amen.