PDA

View Full Version : Sooo angry! We need to stop this!




realtonygoodwin
05-19-2011, 03:42 PM
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/55341.html

Theocrat
05-19-2011, 03:44 PM
The only way to stop madness like that is to pray and elect principled, liberty-loving patriots to Congress. We need the numbers...

realtonygoodwin
05-19-2011, 03:46 PM
We need to talk to our current representatives RIGHT NOW though, before we elect new people.

pcosmar
05-19-2011, 03:47 PM
More good Ammo for Dr. Paul.

heavenlyboy34
05-19-2011, 03:56 PM
The only way to stop madness like that is to pray and elect principled, liberty-loving patriots to Congress. We need the numbers...
Onerous bills have been passed by congress for 200+ years. It's HIGHLY unlikely a change of characters will change the way the show works. ;)

Theocrat
05-19-2011, 04:04 PM
Onerous bills have been passed by congress for 200+ years. It's HIGHLY unlikely a change of characters will change the way the show works. ;)

HB34, I want you to stop and think about what you just said as well as the implications of it. Then ask yourself, "Why do I support Ron Paul and his campaign to change things in the Executive Branch of our government?" I really question your intent of being on these forums when you say things like in your above quote, my friend.

Noob
05-19-2011, 04:12 PM
Oppose H.R. 1800 and support the JUSTICE Act



For nearly ten years, the USA PATRIOT Act has allowed the government to spy on law-abiding Americans without warrants. Meanwhile, inadequate oversight has allowed increased executive secrecy and a dramatic expansion of executive power. Yet Congress has a constitutional responsibility to check and balance the Executive Branch.

With key provisions of the PATRIOT Act now up for renewal, I urge you to oppose H.R. 1800. This bill would reauthorize Section 215 powers and roving wiretaps until 2017 and make the “lone wolf” provision permanent. Further, this bill does not include any protections to address the numerous and ongoing documented violations of individual privacy and civil liberties.

The JUSTICE Act, on the other hand, offers extensive protections to correct and prevent further potential abuses under the PATRIOT Act. The JUSTICE Act would not only curtail PATRIOT abuses, but also reverse the Supreme Court's erroneous decision in Humanitarian Law Project v. Holder and restore some limits to the NSA's unprecedented and constitutionally offensive warrantless wiretapping program.

As a constituent gravely concerned about constitutional rights and liberties, I urge you to oppose H.R. 1800 and any other PATRIOT Act reauthorization bills that do not provide strong new protections against abuse. I further encourage you to cosponsor the JUSTICE Act, which will soon be introduced in the Senate by Senators Jon Tester (D-MT) and Richard Durbin (D-IL).

http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/498/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=6830

heavenlyboy34
05-19-2011, 04:13 PM
HB34, I want you to stop and think about what you just said as well as the implications of it. Then ask yourself, "Why do I support Ron Paul and his campaign to change things in the Executive Branch of our government?" I really question your intent of being on these forums when you say things like in your above quote, my friend.

I've already thought about the implications of it, thanks. The reason I support RP is because he points out the failures of the welfare/warfare state (and of rampant statism in general) and understands sound money. I don't agree with him on constitutionalism or limited government theory, but that doesn't mean he's all bad. I also like his book about gold and a number of his essays. :cool: I support him for basically the same reasons that Lew does. You need not question my intent of being on these forums. I think I've made my positions clear enough for any reasonably intelligent person to understand.

KingRobbStark
05-19-2011, 04:23 PM
I've already thought about the implications of it, thanks. The reason I support RP is because he points out the failures of the welfare/warfare state (and of rampant statism in general) and understands sound money. I don't agree with him on constitutionalism or limited government theory, but that doesn't mean he's all bad. I also like his book about gold and a number of his essays. :cool: I support him for basically the same reasons that Lew does. You need not question my intent of being on these forums. I think I've made my positions clear enough for any reasonably intelligent person to understand.

Why don't you agree with the idea of limited government?

Lucille
05-19-2011, 04:38 PM
Renewing the PATRIOT Act: Who Will Protect Us From Our Government? (http://original.antiwar.com/jwhitehead/2011/05/18/renewing-the-patriot-act/)

awake
05-19-2011, 04:41 PM
Stupid and evil got together again. The stupidly evil party wins every time.

sailingaway
05-19-2011, 04:55 PM
Write to/call all your reps AGAIN saying the Patriot Act is a war on the people by the government and is seen as such.

They may pass it anyhow, but they should know they've been in a fight.

heavenlyboy34
05-19-2011, 05:00 PM
Why don't you agree with the idea of limited government?

Because it is not humanly possible. It is also thoroughly immoral unless everyone agrees to the nature of the government. I would agree with it if there were some evidence that it could work, though.

heavenlyboy34
05-19-2011, 05:00 PM
Stupid and evil got together again. The stupidly evil party wins every time.

qft.

PaulConventionWV
05-19-2011, 05:18 PM
Because it is not humanly possible. It is also thoroughly immoral unless everyone agrees to the nature of the government. I would agree with it if there were some evidence that it could work, though.

It's our job to keep it limited. We are the final check on government. That's what most of us are doing here, trying to keep it limited. I really don't understand your statement that it is immoral since the federal government doesn't even take part in deciding morality. That is the point. If we have a bigger government making our decisions for us, then THAT would be immoral because we didn't all agree to it. The only way to make it moral is to leave government out of it, or else you get creeping authoritarianism. I think most of us agree that government is a necessary evil, but that doesn't mean we let it get out of hand. If it takes a revolution to keep it downsized, then so be it. I, for one, am having a wonderful time being a part of this revolution. I think limited government will work when we start electing principled people like Dr. Paul and are educated about principle. There is no perfect form of government, but the one thing about a democratic republic is that we must remain educated and encourage the rest of the population to do so. Only then will we be prosperous.

Noob
05-19-2011, 05:27 PM
Here is another sample letter, you can make any changes to it if you like.


Some very questionable provisions in the Patriot Act which were set to expire last year, but got extended, officially to allow time for debate. There was none, and when the extension was set to expire, Congress extended the clauses again for 90 days, supposedly to debate them. There were some superficial discussions, but the end result is what many people knew would happen anyway: the provisions are going to be extended for four years, with no concessions or greater oversight. Not only that, but the leadership from both major parties, who have agreed to this "deal," want to pass it with little or no debate:

The deal between Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and House Speaker John Boehner calls for a vote before May 27, when parts of the current act expire, according to officials in both parties who spoke on condition of anonymity. The idea is to pass the extension with as little debate as possible to avoid a protracted and familiar argument over the expanded power the law gives to the government.

So, let's see.

The government grants itself the power to abuse the 4th Amendment and spy on people with little oversight, and it would prefer that there not be any debate over this, because pesky people might raise the fact that this is wide open for abuse, and the senators don't want to have to talk about that.

GOP leaders argue that extending the PATRIOT Act is especially important because Osama bin Laden now as been dealt with, that this might inspire retaliatory actions against Americans. Call me cynical, but had Bin Laden not yet been dealt with, I'm sure that these same GOP leaders would argue that extending the PATRIOT Act is especially important because Osama bin Laden remains on the loose.

Thus the unique danger of declaring war on “terror”: the enemy – being a method rather than an identifiable group of people – is impossible to eradicate completely. And so Congress remains paranoid and have available an inexhaustible supply of superficially plausible excuses for keeping citizens in a perpetual state of fear, war, surveillance, and suppression, with the increase tyranny of "No-Fly list" for Airplanes, soon "No-Ride list" for trains, and maybe even "No-Guns list" for those who are place on the "No-Fly list" and "No-Ride list". Were is this insanity going to stop? Are there also going be "No-Children's list" in order to stop global warming? How about "No-Shopping list" because some body was place on the "No-fly list"?

For nearly ten years, the USA PATRIOT Act has allowed the government to spy on law-abiding Americans without warrants. Meanwhile, inadequate oversight has allowed increased executive secrecy and a dramatic expansion of executive power. Yet Congress has a constitutional responsibility to check and balance the Executive Branch.

With key provisions of the PATRIOT Act now up for renewal, I urge you to oppose H.R. 1800. This bill would reauthorize Section 215 powers and roving wiretaps until 2017 and make the “lone wolf” provision permanent. Further, this bill does not include any protections to address the numerous and ongoing documented violations of individual privacy and civil liberties.

The Patriot Act, as it currently stands, gives virtually no protection to the privacy of innocent Americans regarding wiretapping and eavesdropping. With no criminal trial ever resulting from the Records provision of the Patriot Act, it simply is not needed. Any searches of "persons, houses, places, and effects" should be conducted under the Fourth Amendment with probable cause, a warrant and by proper authorities.

Surveillance of innocent citizens, wiretapping, data mining, and warrantless searches are the marks of a totalitarian state and have no place under the Constitution, the law of our land.

Please help preserve the freedom and liberty given to us by our Founding Fathers by voting "No" on the continued or expanded use of the provisions of the Patriot Act.

The Patriot Act is the most UN-AMERICAN law ever passed in the U.S. This truth about it is self evident, there is no denying it.

As a constituent gravely concerned about constitutional rights and liberties, I urge you to oppose H.R. 1800 and any other PATRIOT Act reauthorization bills

sailingaway
05-19-2011, 05:42 PM
I thought Reid specifically promised a week of debate?

KingRobbStark
05-19-2011, 05:44 PM
It's our job to keep it limited. We are the final check on government. That's what most of us are doing here, trying to keep it limited. I really don't understand your statement that it is immoral since the federal government doesn't even take part in deciding morality. That is the point. If we have a bigger government making our decisions for us, then THAT would be immoral because we didn't all agree to it. The only way to make it moral is to leave government out of it, or else you get creeping authoritarianism. I think most of us agree that government is a necessary evil, but that doesn't mean we let it get out of hand. If it takes a revolution to keep it downsized, then so be it. I, for one, am having a wonderful time being a part of this revolution. I think limited government will work when we start electing principled people like Dr. Paul and are educated about principle. There is no perfect form of government, but the one thing about a democratic republic is that we must remain educated and encourage the rest of the population to do so. Only then will we be prosperous.

This

Noob
05-19-2011, 05:47 PM
I thought Reid specifically promised a week of debate?

The vote on ending debate looks like is slated for next Monday and a final-passage vote possible Wednesday

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2chambers/post/leaders-forge-deal-on-four-year-extension-of-patriot-act-provisions/2011/05/19/AFpu2M7G_blog.html?wprss=2chambers

dannno
05-19-2011, 05:48 PM
It's our job to keep it limited. We are the final check on government. That's what most of us are doing here, trying to keep it limited. I really don't understand your statement that it is immoral since the federal government doesn't even take part in deciding morality. That is the point. If we have a bigger government making our decisions for us, then THAT would be immoral because we didn't all agree to it. The only way to make it moral is to leave government out of it, or else you get creeping authoritarianism. I think most of us agree that government is a necessary evil, but that doesn't mean we let it get out of hand. If it takes a revolution to keep it downsized, then so be it. I, for one, am having a wonderful time being a part of this revolution. I think limited government will work when we start electing principled people like Dr. Paul and are educated about principle. There is no perfect form of government, but the one thing about a democratic republic is that we must remain educated and encourage the rest of the population to do so. Only then will we be prosperous.


I'm with you, I am fine with fighting for minarchism (limited Constitutional Govt.) and would also like to see some societies embrace anarcho capitalism so we can see which is better.

As for why some people don't accept limited govt., it has both principled and practical reasoning behind it.

For the principled reasoning, I think it was outlined pretty well when Stefan Molyneux had a friendly debate on the subject with Peter Schiff on Schiff's radio program.

I'm pretty sure this is it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElzNM5-LxyU

As for the practical reasons of why an anarchist would be against limited govt., it is explained pretty well in this video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P772Eb63qIY

YumYum
05-19-2011, 05:50 PM
The "Patriot Act" sponsors the "Know Thy Enemy" program. It isn't going anywhere. The government is getting into the email and bank accounts of me, you and anybody they choose. Its invasion of privacy in the name of protecting national security. Remember, Ron Paul supporters in MO are considered terrorists. The Patriot Act is here to stay.

surf
05-19-2011, 05:51 PM
Noob - got one for my senators? my neocon rep is unlikely to get this, though at least one of my senators voted our way last time.

dannno
05-19-2011, 06:00 PM
I've already thought about the implications of it, thanks. The reason I support RP is because he points out the failures of the welfare/warfare state (and of rampant statism in general) and understands sound money. I don't agree with him on constitutionalism or limited government theory, but that doesn't mean he's all bad. I also like his book about gold and a number of his essays. :cool: I support him for basically the same reasons that Lew does. You need not question my intent of being on these forums. I think I've made my positions clear enough for any reasonably intelligent person to understand.

I think if there was a philosophical shift in the population we might be able to control govt.

On the other hand, 70% of the population is against the wars overseas and they are still happening, and growing..

I can't decide what is right for sure.. but I'd rather have more freedom than less freedom, so I am ok with working to minimize the state while at the same time rejecting any non-voluntary aspects, so I would not uphold any non-voluntary aspects of the state if I were to be involved with it.

heavenlyboy34
05-19-2011, 06:05 PM
I think if there was a philosophical shift in the population we might be able to control govt.

On the other hand, 70% of the population is against the wars overseas and they are still happening, and growing..

I can't decide what is right for sure.. but I'd rather have more freedom than less freedom, so I am ok with working to minimize the state while at the same time rejecting any non-voluntary aspects, so I would not uphold any non-voluntary aspects of the state if I were to be involved with it.
I greatly appreciate your respecting my wish to not be governed involuntarily. +rep

QueenB4Liberty
05-19-2011, 06:10 PM
I think if there was a philosophical shift in the population we might be able to control govt.

On the other hand, 70% of the population is against the wars overseas and they are still happening, and growing..

I can't decide what is right for sure.. but I'd rather have more freedom than less freedom, so I am ok with working to minimize the state while at the same time rejecting any non-voluntary aspects, so I would not uphold any non-voluntary aspects of the state if I were to be involved with it.

This is how I feel.

QueenB4Liberty
05-19-2011, 06:11 PM
Man I wrote a paper on the Patriot Act. I think in the end I came to the conclusion it should not be abolished. Remember I was a liberal most of my college life.

Noob
05-21-2011, 03:20 PM
On Thursday, Speaker John Boehner and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell collaborated with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid in a backroom pact to extend the so-called "Patriot" Act - with as little debate as possible - for 4 years before some of the most liberty-savaging components expire on Friday, May 27.

The surveillance state's ability to snoop through your business records, pry into your library book checkouts, monitor so-called "lone wolfs," and spy on your personal communications through roving wiretaps will be extended until 2015, which "coincidentally" is not an election year.

So much for all that lofty rhetoric last fall about adhering to the Constitution.

By taking a chainsaw to the Fourth Amendment, they have pledged their allegiance to the Surveillance State.

Even more galling, a cloture vote is scheduled for 5PM Monday, because they believed Senator Rand Paul would be out of town, and they would have a free hand to slip extending the government's domestic spying capabilities through without anyone noticing.

And that has always been the plan from the get-go.

Going back to the original passage of the Patriot Act in the wake of the 9/11 tragedy, leaders in both parties have always schemed to squash debate and muffle dissent.

You and I cannot permit that to happen this time.

Click here to contact your representative and senators by phone and email to give them an earful and jam up their inboxes about how they must not sacrifice our liberty for the illusion of security.

After you contact your representative and senators, please also call or email Speaker Boehner and House Majority Leader Eric Cantor.

Inform them that you elected a Republican majority to protect the Constitution, and not to use it as a doormat so the jackboots at the national security state can wipe their feet all over it.

The speed with which the vote to extend the so-called "Patriot" Act was scheduled is a sign that the statists are worried that the longer this skunk sits out in the open, the more people are going to realize it stinks to high heaven.

They want this over and done with before fence sitters in both houses can be bombarded by phone calls and emails from liberty-minded Americans demanding they respect the Constitution and rollback the so-called "PATRIOT" Act.

So please, contact your representative and senators to show them that the American people are not willing to bargain away their essential liberty for the "comfort" of imagined security.




http://www.campaignforliberty.com/congress.php

Noob
05-21-2011, 03:26 PM
Noob - got one for my senators? my neocon rep is unlikely to get this, though at least one of my senators voted our way last time.
we should try to get Rand to place a hold and filibuster this.

Anti Federalist
05-21-2011, 03:44 PM
I think if there was a philosophical shift in the population we might be able to control govt.

On the other hand, 70% of the population is against the wars overseas and they are still happening, and growing..

I can't decide what is right for sure.. but I'd rather have more freedom than less freedom, so I am ok with working to minimize the state while at the same time rejecting any non-voluntary aspects, so I would not uphold any non-voluntary aspects of the state if I were to be involved with it.

That's pretty much where I am at as well, although I do have a healthy respect for those that have made the full philosophical leap, like HB34 or SV.

Noob
05-23-2011, 03:37 PM
Oppose Imminent Patriot Act Extension

Put an immediate end to the existing and ever-expanding but unconstitutional domestic spying program, letting the sun go down on certain provisions of the Patriot Act by voting against S. 1038. The Senate is expected to have a cloture vote on S. 1038 today (May 23, 2011) at 5 PM ET. Please vote "Nay" on this cloture vote and any subsequent vote to approve S. 1038.

If the Senate approves S. 1038, the House would have to vote on extending the Patriot Act provisions before the May 27 extension deadline. Please vote "Nay" on S. 1038 in the House, if it comes to a vote.

The Patriot Act has gutted the Fourth Amendment, particularly the requirements for probable cause, oaths, and warrants. Because of the Patriot Act, many law-abiding Americans have been the targets of invasive and unconstitutional laws that directly conflict with the Bill of Rights, in homes, businesses, on streets, in airports, mass transit stations, and in their private correspondence and financial transactions.

Stop this egregious assault on our civil liberties by the burgeoning national security state by not only rejecting passage of S. 1038, but also tempering certain permanent provisions of the Patriot Act through amendments that will be introduced.

Vote "Nay" on S. 1038 to extend the Patriot Act.

http://www.votervoice.net/core.aspx?AID=972&Screen=alert&IssueId=25218&APP=GAC&SiteID=-1&VV_CULTURE=en-us

heavenlyboy34
05-23-2011, 03:42 PM
That's pretty much where I am at as well, although I do have a healthy respect for those that have made the full philosophical leap, like HB34 or SV.

Thanks, bro. +rep