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FrankRep
05-17-2011, 10:43 AM
Are You Ready to Pay $50 for a 100-Watt Bulb? (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/are-you-ready-to-pay-50-for-a-100-watt-bulb/)


The Blaze / AP
May 17, 2011



Two leading makers of lighting products are showcasing LED bulbs that are bright enough to replace energy-guzzling 100-watt light bulbs set to disappear from stores in January.

Their demonstrations at the LightFair trade show in Philadelphia this week mean that brighter LED bulbs will likely go on sale next year, but after a government ban takes effect.

The new bulbs will also be expensive — about $50 each — so the development may not prevent consumers from hoarding traditional bulbs.
...


http://www.thenewamerican.com/images/stories/Sci_9-2009/lightb.001.jpg


Flashback:

2011 - Michele Bachmann Pushes Back Against Incandescent Light Bulb Ban (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/5606-bachmann-pushes-back-against-incandescent-light-bulb-ban)

Minnesota Representative Michele Bachmann, who introduced the Light Bulb Freedom of Choice Act (H.R.5616 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-5616)) in 2008 to blunt the incandescent light bulb ban signed into law by President George W. Bush in 2007.

2011 - Republicans Seek Repeal of Incandescent Bulb Ban (http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/environment/item/6913-republicans-seek-repeal-of-incandescent-bulb-ban)

Senators Jim DeMint and Mike Enzi introduced legislation that would reverse the ban on incandescent light bulbs passed as part of the 2007 environmentalist, green energy push.

2010 - The CFL Bulb Is Not Environmentally Friendly (http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/environment/item/6827-the-cfl-bulb-is-not-environmentally-friendly)

Though for millions of environmental activists the Compact Fuorescent Light bulb (CFL) has become a popular mascot rivaling the World Wildlife Fund's panda bear symbol, the bulb is anything but environmentally friendly.

2010 - Death of the Incandescent Light Bulb (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/3341-death-of-the-incandescent-light-bulb)

In response to the 2007 Energy Independence and Security Act, which bans the use of incandescent light bulbs by the year 2014, General Electric has shut down its last factory in the United States that makes the incandescent light bulb.

2010 - UN & Big Business Call for Global Light Bulb Ban to Save Climate (http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/environment/item/6871-un--big-business-call-for-global-light-bulb-ban-to-save-climate)

The United Nations and its corporate allies called for a global ban on incandescent light bulbs and kerosene lamps Wednesday at the COP16 global-warming summit in Cancun, claiming in a new study that “energy-efficient” lights would reduce the amount of carbon dioxide emissions.

smartguy911
05-17-2011, 10:50 AM
I am for LED technology but that halogen crap is pure useless. They die so fast. Any idea how long this LED bulb will last?

LED is the future. They are cool to touch. Movie industry is already moving towards LED lighting on sets.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 11:05 AM
I am for LED technology but that halogen crap is pure useless. They die so fast. Any idea how long this LED bulb will last?

LED is the future. They are cool to touch. Movie industry is already moving towards LED lighting on sets.

And that has what, exactly, to do with government forcing you to buy them?

oyarde
05-17-2011, 11:06 AM
So light bulb theft and black market will be the new thing ??

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 11:08 AM
Oh boy, will I get rich? I have a huge supply of 100 watt incandescent bulbs. It's not like they don't keep well.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 11:13 AM
Oh boy, will I get rich? I have a huge supply of 100 watt incandescent bulbs. It's not like they don't keep well.

Trouble is, your new "smart meter" that electric utilities all across the country are installing, can detect the load of an incadescent bulb on your house grid.

Thus earning you a visit from Officer Friendly and his buddies:

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/swat.gif

oyarde
05-17-2011, 11:20 AM
Light bulbs , the new meth...

pcosmar
05-17-2011, 11:29 AM
I have plenty of Oil Lamps.
Just need a supply of Whale Oil.
;)

oyarde
05-17-2011, 11:38 AM
I have plenty of Oil Lamps.
Just need a supply of Whale Oil.
;)

I have several as well , I use them if the power goes out .

Kelly.
05-17-2011, 11:39 AM
Trouble is, your new "smart meter" that electric utilities all across the country are installing, can detect the load of an incadescent bulb on your house grid.

Thus earning you a visit from Officer Friendly and his buddies:

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/swat.gif

please stop, this isnt even close to true.

Freedom 4 all
05-17-2011, 11:39 AM
Isn't this what prompted Rand's famous (and excellent) speech on th Senate floor about bulbs and toilets?

oyarde
05-17-2011, 11:42 AM
Trouble is, your new "smart meter" that electric utilities all across the country are installing, can detect the load of an incadescent bulb on your house grid.

Thus earning you a visit from Officer Friendly and his buddies:

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/swat.gif

Thats my local sheriff's dept showing up for a snatch on someone behind on child support , or failure to appear for driving without obtaining a license .....

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 11:45 AM
please stop, this isnt even close to true.

What isn't true?

Kelly.
05-17-2011, 11:51 AM
the part about a smart grid being able to tell if you have a incandescent bulb vs another device consuming 100w,
the part about getting a visit because of it.

i agree with what is being said in principle [govt shouldnt be outlawing bulbs], but to say that someone can tell that you are using a specific bulb via your homes [bulk] energy meter, and the subsequent visits from a officer, is imo a huge stretch.

V3n
05-17-2011, 11:53 AM
I've been stockpiling 100-watt bulbs for months. Will it be illegal to sell them on eBay? ;)

pcosmar
05-17-2011, 11:56 AM
please stop, this isnt even close to true.

What isn't true? That electric companies don't report to police?

Guess again,

About 11,100,000 results (0.11 seconds)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=clsfph&xhr=t&q=divisive&cp=7&safe=off&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&um=1&biw=1203&bih=607&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw#hl=en&sugexp=clsfph&pq=marijuana%20grow%20busted%20by%20electric&xhr=t&q=Electricity%20use%20leads%20to%20bust&cp=29&pf=p&sclient=psy&safe=off&biw=1203&bih=607&source=hp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=Electricity+use+leads+to+bust&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c4b94ef403c105f7

JK/SEA
05-17-2011, 12:00 PM
I have plenty of Oil Lamps.
Just need a supply of Whale Oil.
;)


Yep...also, maybe time to break out my old candle making supplies. One step forward, 2 steps back.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 12:01 PM
the part about a smart grid being able to tell if you have a incandescent bulb vs another device consuming 100w,
the part about getting a visit because of it.

i agree with what is being said in principle [govt shouldnt be outlawing bulbs], but to say that someone can tell that you are using a specific bulb via your homes [bulk] energy meter, and the subsequent visits from a officer, is imo a huge stretch.

Yes they can, and yes you do get raided, although not for bulbs, yet.

The cops monitor electric usage and bust people all the time for having indoor pot grows.

They use electric usage rates, and those rates can be extrapolated to determine if incandescent bulbs are being used, and those rates are tabulated and monitored closely by the new "smart meters".

So, while you may not get raided right away for bulbs, once inside your house, you'll get busted for "contraband" incandescent bulbs.

Whistle past the graveyard at your own peril.


Could your electric bill trigger a marijuana SWAT raid?

This week Colorado police arrested 3 people for growing marijuana inside their home after noticing their “high” electric bill.

If you follow the news, you’ll notice “electric bill raids” are not uncommon. Police often resort to mining electric bills, since it’s cheaper than using heat sensing cameras with helicopters and potentially less troublesome legally.

So for those of you who keep the air conditioner, 3 TVs, a computer and a washer/dryer running, you might be wondering whether see your electric bill as suspicious.

http://www.thelegalizationofmarijuana.com/2008/12/17/could-your-electric-bill-trigger-a-marijuana-swat-raid/



BC Hydro's new digital technology will be able to detect marijuana growing operations

One of British Columbia's biggest underground industries could find itself short-circuited by a BC Hydro technology upgrade.

Hydro is moving ahead with a plan to replace mechanical electricity meters with smart meters across the province that are expected to make it a lot tougher for indoor marijuana growers to conceal their operations.

Smart meters represent the first major upgrade on conventional analog electricity meters in a half century. Hydro last month issued a request for proposals for companies to bid on installation of new, digital meters as well as the accompanying hardware and software, to serve all of its customers by 2012.

The principal benefit of the upgrade is to allow Hydro to better manage its electrical grid.

For example, Hydro will receive instantaneous reports of blackouts rather than waiting for customers to phone them with the information.

However, Hydro is touting detection of electricity theft as a significant side benefit for its customers.

Electricity theft was estimated in 2006 to cost Hydro $30 million per year -- which would work out to at least $40 million with today's two-tier electricity rate -- equivalent to a one-percent rate hike.

"At the market value of [purchasing] new energy supply, the cost to our legitimate customers would be significantly more -- even if the total quantity of gigawatt hours stolen has not increased since 2006," said Cindy Verschoor, Hydro smart meter program communications leader, in an e-mail.

"The smart metering and infrastructure program will help to identify theft where and when it is occurring and mitigate impacts on legitimate ratepayers."

Illicit marijuana production in B.C. has been estimated to have an annual retail value of between $4 billion and $5 billion.

Conventional wisdom holds that residential-based grow operators have either tampered with their existing meters or rewired nearby distribution power lines in order to mask the large volume of power they need to run the lights that serve their indoor nurseries.

In a recent interview, a senior executive with a B.C.-based company that has already installed millions of smart meters for utilities around North America said that its workers immediately detect illegal electricity consumption when they attach the new meters to the outside of homes and commercial businesses.

It's a side-effect of the installation, Corix Utilities (U. S.) vice-president and general manager Kevin Meagher said.

"We are verifying first of all ... is the system is safe? Is that little box on the side of your house safe? Is it grounded? Are there the right voltages based on the [customers'] records and so forth? That's all part of the installation process. We are testing all of that," Meagher said.

"How we find these [illegal] things is that we will get a back-feed that tells me there is power coming from somewhere else on this premise through the system. That's usually an indicator that there is a grow house or something else on it."

Hydro won't divulge specific details on how smart meters will detect theft, but Verschoor acknowledged that the Crown corporation expects that tampered meters will be discovered by contractors during the initial installation process.

"While evidence of electricity theft will be reported to BC Hydro, the smart meter installers are not going to be conducting investigations or intruding on customer privacy," Verschoor said.

"In general, theft detection will involve accurately measuring how much electricity is going into an area [such as a neighbourhood] and that data will be compared to metered consumption from customers in the area.

"This is akin to a retail chain comparing how much inventory is delivered to each store by how many units are sold at the cash registers in that store."

She added that the new system will give Hydro better "visibility" of its grid.

"We can determine sources of energy loss from a variety of causes, including theft."

Discussion board participants on cannabis culture sites across the English-speaking world have been expressing a degree of paranoia about the new technology, with similar meter installations proceeding in many countries.

Advocates of legalizing marijuana, meanwhile, think the grow operations most likely to be detected by the new meter technology are family enterprises.

"Prohibition breeds creativity for getting around obstacles and law enforcement, so there will be ways for large-scale growers to go undetected," Jodie Emery said in an e-mail.

Emery's husband is Marc Emery, an outspoken advocate of pot legalization now serving five years in a U.S. penitentiary for a mail order business that shipped marijuana seeds from Canada to the United States.

"They can just get generators, or buy entire gas stations (as we've seen done in the past), or use new LED lighting technology, or grow smaller crops in more locations, which actually spreads the problem out and makes it harder to detect," Jodie Emery said.

"The most dangerous aspect of the smart meter program is that it means small-scale, mom-and-pop indoor gardens will be more likely to be shut down, whereas organized crime can afford the techniques and technology to avoid detection (in the ways I outlined above). So it puts more of the cannabis market into the hands of gangs, and out of small-scale personal gardeners.

"No matter what BC Hydro does with smart meters, grow ops will never go away unless cannabis prohibition ends."

ssimpson@vancouversun.com

Author: Scott Simpson
Date: 9 August 2010
Source: Vancouver Sun
http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Sma...6236/story.html

AFPVet
05-17-2011, 12:12 PM
the part about a smart grid being able to tell if you have a incandescent bulb vs another device consuming 100w,
the part about getting a visit because of it.

i agree with what is being said in principle [govt shouldn't be outlawing bulbs], but to say that someone can tell that you are using a specific bulb via your homes [bulk] energy meter, and the subsequent visits from a officer, is imo a huge stretch.

I wouldn't be so sure... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_meter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_meter) these things are capable of real time monitoring and logging.

Regarding the enforcement, check this out: http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/30/us/3-businessmen-testify-of-armed-raids-by-irs.html IRS agents are conducting raids!

axiomata
05-17-2011, 12:13 PM
Perhaps 100 Watt incandescent light bulbs could be a new currency. (If only they weren't so fragile.)

Zippyjuan
05-17-2011, 12:17 PM
Trouble is, your new "smart meter" that electric utilities all across the country are installing, can detect the load of an incadescent bulb on your house grid.

Thus earning you a visit from Officer Friendly and his buddies:

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/swat.gif

Smart meters tell how much total power you are using when. It cannot tell what you are using that energy on.

100 watt equivelent bulbs are available now for just a few dollars and in all likelyhood the LED ones will come down in cost over time. Nobody is or will be forced to buy $50 lightbulbs.

axiomata
05-17-2011, 12:26 PM
Smart meters tell how much total power you are using when. It cannot tell what you are using that energy on.

100 watt equivelent bulbs are available now for just a few dollars and in all likelyhood the LED ones will come down in cost over time. Nobody is or will be forced to buy $50 lightbulbs.

You are confused what "force" means in this context. It does not mean somebody puts a gun to your head and forces you to buy one of these bulbs. It means the freedom to purchase 100 Watt incandescent bulbs is removed so once the regulation goes into effect, if you need a new 100 Watt bulb, you will have no choice but to purchase one of these.

If you come to a fork in the road and you'd like to go right, but somebody puts up a roadblock and makes left the only option, only in the most idiotic sense did they not force you to go left. (Sure, you could stop and turn around, but you don't want to go back where you came, otherwise you wouldn't be on the road in the first place.)

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 12:29 PM
Oh darn, the electric heater just turned on and now they think I'm using incandescent light bulbs. /s

Razmear
05-17-2011, 12:34 PM
I really don't understand all the whining about incandescent bulbs going away, we've been 100% CFL bulbs for years, they use less juice, are just as bright, and last almost forever. The power company here just sent everyone a dozen for free, so I've got enough that I'll probably never have to buy another light bulb again.
LED Bulbs will be the next great thing, one the prices drop, but no one is gonna force you to pay $50 for a lightbulb, unless maybe you want to pay out the ass for the special feeling of getting a black market incandescent one.
Yes, the free market should decide which is best, but many people would rather spend $1 for something that lasts 6 months than $3 for something that lasts 5 years. You see it everyday with the cheap chinese crap that people buy when they could get a far better quality product for maybe 20% more.
Saving 50% of the juice needed to power every light bulb in this country is a significant dent in US power consumption, and seeing how our power grid is already about maxed out, (and I'll omit any environmental issues to avoid going off topic), I don't have any problems with the ban on incandescent light bulbs.
There are more important things to worry about than the government taking away your cheap and inefficient light bulbs.

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 12:37 PM
I really don't understand all the whining about incandescent bulbs going away, we've been 100% CFL bulbs for years, they use less juice, are just as bright, and last almost forever. The power company here just sent everyone a dozen for free, so I've got enough that I'll probably never have to buy another light bulb again.
LED Bulbs will be the next great thing, one the prices drop, but no one is gonna force you to pay $50 for a lightbulb, unless maybe you want to pay out the ass for the special feeling of getting a black market incandescent one.
Yes, the free market should decide which is best, but many people would rather spend $1 for something that lasts 6 months than $3 for something that lasts 5 years. You see it everyday with the cheap chinese crap that people buy when they could get a far better quality product for maybe 20% more.
Saving 50% of the juice needed to power every light bulb in this country is a significant dent in US power consumption, and seeing how our power grid is already about maxed out, (and I'll omit any environmental issues to avoid going off topic), I don't have any problems with the ban on incandescent light bulbs.
There are more important things to worry about than the government taking away your cheap and inefficient light bulbs.

Why not let the market decide? If the price of electricity is high enough, people will naturally buy the more efficient bulbs. There is no reason to make any bulb illegal to sell.

Razmear
05-17-2011, 12:39 PM
Why not let the market decide? If the price of electricity is high enough, people will naturally buy the more efficient bulbs. There is no reason to make any bulb illegal to sell.

You overestimate the intelligence of the average consumer.

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 12:42 PM
You overestimate the intelligence of the average consumer.

Oh, so the government knows better. Now I see the light.

So those ignorant people just pay more for electricity. No problem for anybody but those who choose to use the more expensive to run light bulb.

Keep the damned government out of peoples lives and let people make their own decisions.

Zippyjuan
05-17-2011, 12:45 PM
You are confused what "force" means in this context. It does not mean somebody puts a gun to your head and forces you to buy one of these bulbs. It means the freedom to purchase 100 Watt incandescent bulbs is removed so once the regulation goes into effect, if you need a new 100 Watt bulb, you will have no choice but to purchase one of these.

If you come to a fork in the road and you'd like to go right, but somebody puts up a roadblock and makes left the only option, only in the most idiotic sense did they not force you to go left. (Sure, you could stop and turn around, but you don't want to go back where you came, otherwise you wouldn't be on the road in the first place.)

No- that isn't your only choice (and no, I was not refering to armed force either but a lack of choice). Today you can get as six pack of 100w equivelent CFL lights for under $14. http://www.amazon.com/Watt-Energy-Smart-CFL-Replacement/dp/B000UYF80S That is a bit over $2 a piece.

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 12:48 PM
No- that isn't your only choice. Today you can get as six pack of 100w equivelent CFL lights for under $14. http://www.amazon.com/Watt-Energy-Smart-CFL-Replacement/dp/B000UYF80S That is a bit over $2 a piece.
So maybe somebody doesn't want to buy CFL bulbs.

Zippyjuan
05-17-2011, 12:50 PM
What if you didn't want to buy an incadescent bulb twenty years ago? Then the option was expensive halogens. You still have choices.

Razmear
05-17-2011, 12:50 PM
Oh, so the government knows better. Now I see the light.

In this case, yes. You used to be able to use uninsulated wires in your house (knob and tube), after enough fires insulated wires became mandatory, and I'm sure there was resistance at the time with the same arguments.
You used to be able to use lead paint and plumbing, perhaps you want to go back to those days too?

Occasionally the government does something correct, and this is one of those times.
eb

Krugerrand
05-17-2011, 12:51 PM
the part about a smart grid being able to tell if you have a incandescent bulb vs another device consuming 100w,
the part about getting a visit because of it.

i agree with what is being said in principle [govt shouldnt be outlawing bulbs], but to say that someone can tell that you are using a specific bulb via your homes energy meter,[B] and the subsequent visits from a officer, is imo a huge stretch.

Have you seen what happens to people that sell raw milk? Have you seen what happened to the NV man who paid his contractors in current US Mint gold and silver coins? Have you seen what happens to people who grow the wrong plants in their basements?

Try selling apricot seeds and see where that gets you.

I doesn't look a stretch at all to me.

archangel689
05-17-2011, 12:52 PM
CFLs give some people headaches and when they malfunction they stink and who knows what kinds of gases are coming out when they do that.

Krugerrand
05-17-2011, 12:52 PM
In this case, yes. You used to be able to use uninsulated wires in your house (knob and tube), after enough fires insulated wires became mandatory, and I'm sure there was resistance at the time with the same arguments.
You used to be able to use lead paint and plumbing, perhaps you want to go back to those days too?

Occasionally the government does something correct, and this is one of those times.
eb

This can easily be handled at a local level w/ building codes or without any government at all with insurance rates.

amonasro
05-17-2011, 01:01 PM
I am for LED technology but that halogen crap is pure useless. They die so fast. Any idea how long this LED bulb will last?

LED is the future. They are cool to touch. Movie industry is already moving towards LED lighting on sets.

LEDs will last a long time, however I don't think they're significantly better than CFLs in that way besides being cooler. The good thing I see is that companies can make bulbs with specific wavelengths to mimic the more attractive light incandescent bulbs emit (which most prefer over CFLs). LED TVs don't use LED tech as much as LCD tech. Unless they're really high-end sets it's a marketing gimic for TV manufacturers to push up the price. (And they're still not as good as plasmas for overall PQ.)

In the end the government needs to stop mandating and let us choose once the technologies mature. Most would choose the more energy efficient option anyway unless we have a specific reason for incandescent, like a dimmer switch. "Banning" older light types is just ridiculous. Are they going to ban the horribly-inefficient gas discharge lights like high pressure sodium too? Cities use those for streetlights. LEDs can't get that bright yet.

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 01:02 PM
In this case, yes. You used to be able to use uninsulated wires in your house (knob and tube), after enough fires insulated wires became mandatory, and I'm sure there was resistance at the time with the same arguments.
You used to be able to use lead paint and plumbing, perhaps you want to go back to those days too?

Occasionally the government does something correct, and this is one of those times.
eb

Oh my, they should have banned oil lamps and candles so people wouldn't have their homes burn down. We all know those are a greater fire hazard than an incandescent light bulb.

And knob and tube wire was insulated.

Edit: I have some still in use in my 1880 farm house.

ItsTime
05-17-2011, 01:06 PM
In this case, yes. You used to be able to use uninsulated wires in your house (knob and tube), after enough fires insulated wires became mandatory, and I'm sure there was resistance at the time with the same arguments.
You used to be able to use lead paint and plumbing, perhaps you want to go back to those days too?

Occasionally the government does something correct, and this is one of those times.
eb

So you are willing to kill someone to protect themselves from themselves? How liberating.

EndDaFed
05-17-2011, 01:06 PM
please stop, this isnt even close to true.

Hey this is America. Anything is possible here.

Kelly.
05-17-2011, 01:12 PM
Hey this is America. Anything is possible here.

my post was meant to call attention to something that is said as fact, when it isnt.

i could go and reply to each post, but it would take away from the theme of this thread, that being that the govt shouldnt outlaw incandescent bulbs, which i agree with.

Razmear
05-17-2011, 01:13 PM
So you are willing to kill someone to protect themselves from themselves? How liberating.

How are CFL's gonna kill people? Maybe if you swallow one.

re: knob and tube. My error. I used to do electrical work many years ago, and the knob and tube that I encountered on one project was uninsulated, but after some quick research it seems more likely that the insulation had disintegrated over time.

About 15% of the US power grid is used for lighting. Cutting that by half or more is not a bad thing regardless how badly you wish to cling to your 19th century technology.

fisharmor
05-17-2011, 02:12 PM
In this case, yes. You used to be able to use uninsulated wires in your house (knob and tube), after enough fires insulated wires became mandatory, and I'm sure there was resistance at the time with the same arguments.
You used to be able to use lead paint and plumbing, perhaps you want to go back to those days too?

Occasionally the government does something correct, and this is one of those times.
eb

You didn't finish your homework.
There is no federal electric code.
In many localities, there is no local electric code.
In many more localities, they simply adopt the national electric code.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code

The national electric code is developed by the National Fire Protection Association, which is a private non-profit devoted to fire safety.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Fire_Protection_Association

The national electric code is approved by ANSI, another private non-profit which is devoted to voluntary consensus standards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_National_Standards_Institute

So thanks for bringing up some of my favorite examples of why we don't need your beloved government to get along.
No, the state isn't doing this right, it never does anything correct.
The market ****WAS**** taking care of the situation, because the price of CFLs dropped, and people naturally saw a long-lived alternative that saved on the bills, too. It made economic sense.
It was happening. But you jackasses had to force it. We don't appreciate it, especially since it was not necessary in any sense.
You are the problem, sir, not the solution.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 02:21 PM
Smart meters tell how much total power you are using when. It cannot tell what you are using that energy on.

Already answered.

I hope you're not trying to tell me that the "smart meter" does not communicate with the new "smart appliances" to get a precise metric of usage in your home.

Anything left over from that usage, can be determined to be de facto, used by lighting. As I already posted, cops have raided homes many times, just on that pretext.

Listen, all you technophiles and nit pickers, I've already been down this road, you were same people telling me 15 years ago that, "oh stop, you're fear mongering, cel phones will never be able to track your position, listen without being turned on, and log your locations."

I ought to pull up some of my old posts from back around 1995 or so on that subject. I may still have them saved somewhere.

And we know how that worked out.


100 watt equivelent bulbs are available now for just a few dollars and in all likelyhood the LED ones will come down in cost over time. Nobody is or will be forced to buy $50 lightbulbs.

That is not the frippin' point.

The point is that there are applications that I use, not the least of which is egg warming and getting hens to lay, that only incandescent bulbs will work for.

Not to mention that in some applications, they just look nicer and light better.

Razmear
05-17-2011, 02:22 PM
But you jackasses had to force it. We don't appreciate it, especially since it was not necessary in any sense.
You are the problem, sir, not the solution.

Firstly, I didn't force anything. This was a Bush Administration approved policy from 2007 that is scheduled to go into effect in 2012.

Do I agree with doing away with incandescent lights, yes, because they are just about the least efficient method to produce light available. It was a revolutionary idea in the 1800's, but they are now obsolete.
All these yahoo's rant about energy independence, and how we have to blow up other countries to secure our 'national interests', but then want to cling onto these obsolete energy wasting light bulbs to show how much freedom of choice the American public has.
It's a BS issue, go ahead and ban the things, and if you want to hoard black market light bulbs, or use reptile lights in your reading lamp more power to ya, jackass.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 02:24 PM
In this case, yes. You used to be able to use uninsulated wires in your house (knob and tube), after enough fires insulated wires became mandatory, and I'm sure there was resistance at the time with the same arguments.
You used to be able to use lead paint and plumbing, perhaps you want to go back to those days too?

Occasionally the government does something correct, and this is one of those times.
eb

Companies are staring to remove HFCS from drinks and food products.

There has been no law to mandate that, just customer pressure.

Don't you think that lead paint would have gone the way of the dodo for the same reasons?

Kelly.
05-17-2011, 02:25 PM
Already answered.

I hope you're not trying to tell me that the "smart meter" does not communicate with the new "smart appliances" to get a precise metric of usage in your home.

Anything left over from that usage, can be determined to be de facto, used by lighting. As I already posted, cops have raided homes many times, just on that pretext.

Listen, all you technophiles and nit pickers, I've already been down this road, you were same people telling me 15 years ago that, "oh stop, you're fear mongering, cel phones will never be able to track your position, listen without being turned on, and log your locations."

I ought to pull up some of my old posts from back around 1995 or so on that subject. I may still have them saved somewhere.

And we know how that worked out.



That is not the frippin' point.

The point is that there are applications that I use, not the least of which is egg warming and getting hens to lay, that only incandescent bulbs will work for.

Not to mention that in some applications, they just look nicer and light better.


are you comparing an incandescent bulb with GPS?

or are you saying that soon every electronic device in my house will be able to communicate with my yet to be installed smart grid meter?

should the govt be allowed to ban incandescent bulbs, no.
is using an incandescent bulb going to get you in trouble, no.

fyi - an incandescent bulb is a shitty light bulb, it makes a much better heater :)

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 02:28 PM
Firstly, I didn't force anything. This was a Bush Administration approved policy from 2007 that is scheduled to go into effect in 2012.

Do I agree with doing away with incandescent lights, yes, because they are just about the least efficient method to produce light available. It was a revolutionary idea in the 1800's, but they are now obsolete.
All these yahoo's rant about energy independence, and how we have to blow up other countries to secure our 'national interests', but then want to cling onto these obsolete energy wasting light bulbs to show how much freedom of choice the American public has.
It's a BS issue, go ahead and ban the things, and if you want to hoard black market light bulbs, or use reptile lights in your reading lamp more power to ya, jackass.

It's not BS issue, it cuts right to the core of it all.

Point out where in the Constitution the fedgov has any authority to do this.

And if you can, if you can justify this, then you have no argument left: Obamacare, gun prohibition, drug prohibition, mileage standards, the list is endless,...all of it is now legitimate.

Razmear
05-17-2011, 02:30 PM
The point is that there are applications that I use, not the least of which is egg warming and getting hens to lay, that only incandescent bulbs will work for.


At least you have a legitimate need for a heat producing light bulb.
Check this: http://members.misty.com/don/incban.html
for a list of exemptions. I'll need replacement bulbs for my fish tank at some point as well.

eb

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 02:35 PM
are you comparing an incandescent bulb with GPS?

or are you saying that soon every electronic device in my house will be able to communicate with my yet to be installed smart gird meter?

should the govt be allowed to ban incandescent bulbs, no.
is using an incandescent bulb going to get you in trouble, no.

fyi - an incandescent bulb is a shitty light bulb, it makes a much better heater :)

No, what I am saying is that the new smart meters, (whether you have one or not right this second is moot, they are being rolled out nationwide) can communicate wirelessly with the new "smart applainaces".

That between the two, a matrix of power usage can be deduced that will indicate if there is an "abnormal" usage in the home.

I am saying that smart meters will be tied into the police grid, and will be monitored for these "abnormal" usages. This isn't paranoid fantasy, it's already being done.

As it stands right now, usage of incandescents is not prohibited, just their sale. Look for that to change after it becomes clear that hoarders have saved millions of bulbs.

When it does, you can bet your ass that Officer Friendly will pay you a visit, either because you've got a pot grow going, or are using verboten electrical lighting.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 02:36 PM
At least you have a legitimate need for a heat producing light bulb.
Check this: http://members.misty.com/don/incban.html
for a list of exemptions. I'll need replacement bulbs for my fish tank at some point as well.

eb

If I had to provide a "legitimate need" to government to speak, or worship or keep a gun, you would be (I hope) livid.

puppetmaster
05-17-2011, 02:43 PM
I have plenty of Oil Lamps.
Just need a supply of Whale Oil.
;)

Great. I have a huge supply of whales......wow I love free market economics!

Razmear
05-17-2011, 03:19 PM
It's not BS issue, it cuts right to the core of it all.

Point out where in the Constitution the fedgov has any authority to do this.

And if you can, if you can justify this, then you have no argument left: Obamacare, gun prohibition, drug prohibition, mileage standards, the list is endless,...all of it is now legitimate.

Not true.
Religion, gun ownership, etc are personal property issues. You do not own the power grid.
Electricity is a shared resource. If your community is having a drought, they will put in water bans saying you can't waste water by running your sprinklers all day because the greenness of your lawn is not as important as other people on the same closed system having enough water to flush their toilets.
In the same way, you using a light source that has a 3% efficiency rating is a drain on others using the same shared resource when there are far more efficient methods available.
btw, your eggs need a heat source to hatch, not a light source (I've never seen light coming out a chicken's ass). Incandescent bulbs are a great source of heat, which is why they are so inefficient as a source of illumination.

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 03:29 PM
Not true.
Religion, gun ownership, etc are personal property issues. You do not own the power grid.
Electricity is a shared resource. If your community is having a drought, they will put in water bans saying you can't waste water by running your sprinklers all day because the greenness of your lawn is not as important as other people on the same closed system having enough water to flush their toilets.
In the same way, you using a light source that has a 3% efficiency rating is a drain on others using the same shared resource when there are far more efficient methods available.
btw, your eggs need a heat source to hatch, not a light source (I've never seen light coming out a chicken's ass). Incandescent bulbs are a great source of heat, which is why they are so inefficient as a source of illumination.

Is fuel a shared resource too?
If it is, I suspect we will have government telling us what kind of automobiles we will drive as well. I suspect it would be along the lines of a very small vehicle that uses much less fuel than the big ones do. Sure, they flatten out a lot more when pinched between two huge trucks, but it's for the greater good.

We need government to help us manage our limited resources. The price of those resources won't have anything to do with how much of them people use.

Bull shit.... if it gets expensive enough, people will naturally find ways to use less of it.

fisharmor
05-17-2011, 03:31 PM
Not true.
Religion, gun ownership, etc are personal property issues. You do not own the power grid.
Electricity is a shared resource. If your community is having a drought, they will put in water bans saying you can't waste water by running your sprinklers all day because the greenness of your lawn is not as important as other people on the same closed system having enough water to flush their toilets.
In the same way, you using a light source that has a 3% efficiency rating is a drain on others using the same shared resource when there are far more efficient methods available.
btw, your eggs need a heat source to hatch, not a light source (I've never seen light coming out a chicken's ass). Incandescent bulbs are a great source of heat, which is why they are so inefficient as a source of illumination.

Yes, public resources. We get it, you're a statist. You don't need to keep driving the point home.
In a drought, if water wasn't a public resource, the price would go up. Then people would need to make decisions about whether to water their grass. Most would choose to water themselves before their grass. This is basic price mechanism.
If electricity was scarce (note, again, that this tends to happen in places with the greatest state control over the grid) then in a free market the same thing would happen.
Unless, of course, the whole thing isn't run privately at all, and suffers from the typical state boondoggles, and has trouble meeting consumer demand. Then it makes perfect sense to ban an entire technology because we're too stupid to handle our own finances.

Yes, you forced us to do this because you're actively choosing not only to support the state-worshippers who put this in place, you're trying to convince us that they were right to do it.
You are the public mandate. You are the force. You are killing a market prematurely, and making it more difficult for us to get things that we need.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 03:39 PM
Not true.
Religion, gun ownership, etc are personal property issues. You do not own the power grid.

Religious decisions, weapons decisions all impact the "health care grid".

You do not own the "health care grid".

Therefore I have right to regulate anything you do that will affect my cost in the "health care grid".


Electricity is a shared resource. If your community is having a drought, they will put in water bans saying you can't waste water by running your sprinklers all day because the greenness of your lawn is not as important as other people on the same closed system having enough water to flush their toilets.

What if told you that I spent $30,000 last year to install a full solar/wind/battery inverter system in my home, and am, for all intents and purposes, "off the grid".

Just as I am for water. I own the mineral and water rights below my property, I have own well, with my own pump, that I pay for.

Regardless, if it's "shared resource" and not a commodity, how is it that anybody can claim ownership of it?


In the same way, you using a light source that has a 3% efficiency rating is a drain on others using the same shared resource when there are far more efficient methods available.

You live down south by any chance?

You use ten times as much electricity just keeping your house at a tolerable temperature as I would running a few incandescent bulbs.

You have no right to hog that resource.

Get a fan.


btw, your eggs need a heat source to hatch, not a light source (I've never seen light coming out a chicken's ass). Incandescent bulbs are a great source of heat, which is why they are so inefficient as a source of illumination.

Hens need 16 hours of light a day or they stop laying.

In my experience, the light given off by CFLs and LEDs (yes, I've tried them) do not "trick" the hens into thinking they are receiving natural light, and they stop laying.

Kelly.
05-17-2011, 03:39 PM
No, what I am saying is that the new smart meters, (whether you have one or not right this second is moot, they are being rolled out nationwide) can communicate wirelessly with the new "smart applainaces".

That between the two, a matrix of power usage can be deduced that will indicate if there is an "abnormal" usage in the home.

I am saying that smart meters will be tied into the police grid, and will be monitored for these "abnormal" usages. This isn't paranoid fantasy, it's already being done.

As it stands right now, usage of incandescents is not prohibited, just their sale. Look for that to change after it becomes clear that hoarders have saved millions of bulbs.

When it does, you can bet your ass that Officer Friendly will pay you a visit, either because you've got a pot grow going, or are using verboten electrical lighting.

http://asset.soup.io/asset/1526/8208_4bfe.gif

specsaregood
05-17-2011, 03:42 PM
or are you saying that soon every electronic device in my house will be able to communicate with my yet to be installed smart grid meter?

Yes, of course. It is only a matter of time. It's not exactly like it is hard to do -- I already run most of my internal computer network over the electrical lines in my house. It will be sold as a function of energy saving.

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 03:44 PM
Nobody should care if somebody wants to light their rooms with the heating elements out of toasters. If they pay the electric bill, it's their electricity to use as they please.

Edit:

If there is a shortage of electricity, the price will go up to regulate it's use. As the price has gone up, the utility builds more infrastructure to increase the amount of electricity it can supply and that balances the system. Nothing needs to be controlled or regulated, the entire system is organic.

axiomata
05-17-2011, 03:53 PM
How much sugar I put on my coffee affects the sugar grid. The electrical grid you speak of is also known as a market by the less socialist.

jdmyprez_deo_vindice
05-17-2011, 03:54 PM
the part about a smart grid being able to tell if you have a incandescent bulb vs another device consuming 100w,
the part about getting a visit because of it.

i agree with what is being said in principle [govt shouldnt be outlawing bulbs], but to say that someone can tell that you are using a specific bulb via your homes [bulk] energy meter, and the subsequent visits from a officer, is imo a huge stretch.

Tell that to a friend of mine who recently had the elctric company inform the local police that he was using multiple plant grow lights in his house. They knew this because of the amount of power being pulled at certain times of the day. The police kicked in his door and tore his house apart and after a couple hours of searching they came to the conclusion that he was a grower or prize winning Orchids...which is what they told him when they kicked in his door.

specsaregood
05-17-2011, 03:58 PM
Tell that to a friend of mine who recently had the elctric company inform the local police that he was using multiple plant grow lights in his house. They knew this because of the amount of power being pulled at certain times of the day. The police kicked in his door and tore his house apart and after a couple hours of searching they came to the conclusion that he was a grower or prize winning Orchids...which is what they told him when they kicked in his door.

Did they get documentation to that affect: ie: the electric company informing the police? or did they just assume.
Because it might have been due to the police driving around with those FLIR detectors -- which is usually illegal.

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 03:58 PM
Yes they can, and yes you do get raided, although not for bulbs, yet.

way to move the goal post.

Yes, people that setup huge indoor grow houses use so much electricity that people start taking notice. They also have an array of lights that amount to 100+ 100w bulbs in use. Often times, the investigation begins because the electical company suspects someone is stealing your electricity, or that their equipment is faulty.

nobody will ever be able to tell if a person is running a few 100w bulbs, as you tried to insinuate.

jdmyprez_deo_vindice
05-17-2011, 04:01 PM
Did they get documentation to that affect: ie: the electric company informing the police? or did they just assume.
Because it might have been due to the police driving around with those FLIR detectors -- which is usually illegal.

I am not sure honestly as I did not ask. I found out the police raided his home (a man in his 70's who is president of a local gardening club) and when I asked him why he said the electric company told the cops that he was potentially growing pot. I don't know how he got that information.

jdmyprez_deo_vindice
05-17-2011, 04:03 PM
I cannot believe people are actually defending this. Bottom line is that the government has zero right to tell me what bulbs I can or cannot use.

specsaregood
05-17-2011, 04:04 PM
I am not sure honestly as I did not ask. I found out the police raided his home (a man in his 70's who is president of a local gardening club) and when I asked him why he said the electric company told the cops that he was potentially growing pot. I don't know how he got that information.

It might be worth finding out. Remember that is what that "never get busted" guy did to setup the police who were illegally driving around with FLIR detectors.
Might be able to expose some cops breaking the law -- if it is illegal in MD to use flir without a warrant-- just saying.

Razmear
05-17-2011, 04:12 PM
Religious decisions, weapons decisions all impact the "health care grid".

You do not own the "health care grid".

Therefore I have right to regulate anything you do that will affect my cost in the "health care grid".



What if told you that I spent $30,000 last year to install a full solar/wind/battery inverter system in my home, and am, for all intents and purposes, "off the grid".

Just as I am for water. I own the mineral and water rights below my property, I have own well, with my own pump, that I pay for.


At least I can expect an intelligent and respectful argument from you on the issues, which I appreciate.
If you are off the grid, then yes, you own your own power and can do with it what you like. Seeing how SC is probably going to pass a bill for domestic production of incandescent bulbs for in state use, I'll gladly ship you all you need at cost.

For the whiners who say taking away a wasteful item is an infringement on their personal freedom, while they consume a shared resource they do not own, I still call that a BS and selfish argument.

re: the health care grid.
I haven't had health insurance for over 20 years, I've only been to the doctor once in that time, and that was for stitches after an injury at work. (workmans comp)
I refuse to take part in the heath care system, I'd rather die of a brain tumor in my sleep than give my life savings to a corrupt industry so I can cling to life for a few more years. I'm opposed to anyone making me pay for something that I refuse to take part in.

re: water
If it's piped in by a private company, as it is here, or by the town then it is a shared resource. If it's your well, it's your water, do what you like.

re: the electric grid
The US has one of the worst electric grids in the developed world, our entire infrastructure is failing as well.
So seeing such resistance to what should just be common sense conservation of what is a shared resource, most often with lame and irrelevant arguments makes me almost nauseous.
An old fashioned light bulb is a heating element that has a waste product of light, it is obsolete technology, not an industry that is being prematurely snuffed out.
If you want to think that I'm a statist, fascist, the root of all evil or an Obama-lover for being glad that this wasteful product is finally being phased out, then more power to you.

re: south
Yes we have a/c, it's usually set at 79 cuz I'm a cheap bastard.

re: hens
I've learned more about chicken in this thread than anything else. Like I said, if ya need bootleg bulbs for your farm, just let me know, but I'm pretty sure something on the exemption list would work for ya.

eb

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 04:22 PM
nobody will ever be able to tell if a person is running a few 100w bulbs, as you tried to insinuate.

I will take action on that.

Wanna bet?

How much?

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 04:27 PM
If you want to think that I'm a statist, fascist, the root of all evil or an Obama-lover for being glad that this wasteful product is finally being phased out, then more power to you.

No, I don't think any of that at all.

I just think you might not be thinking this thing all the way through.

This isn't the market driving innovation, it's government forcing a product that many people don't want on them, and grabbing yet another piece of power over all our lives and setting yet another precedent for further power grabs in the future.

The product in question and it's benefits are entirely moot in this argument AFAIC.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 04:29 PM
http://asset.soup.io/asset/1526/8208_4bfe.gif

Well, that was a productive conversation...

Razmear
05-17-2011, 04:33 PM
I cannot people are actually defending this. Bottom line is that the government has zero right to tell me what bulbs I can or cannot use.

You are correct, but they do have the power to ban the manufacture of those bulbs.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/commercial/pdfs/eisa_2007.pdf

Echoes
05-17-2011, 04:39 PM
I cannot people are actually defending this. Bottom line is that the government has zero right to tell me what bulbs I can or cannot use.

I, too, am amazed. It's astonishing. Especially to see it on a Ron Paul site.

Just goes to show this is a big tent campaign, we even get fasco-authoritarian types jumping on board lol

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 04:41 PM
You are correct, but they do have the power to ban the manufacture of those bulbs.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/commercial/pdfs/eisa_2007.pdf

LOL, you pointed to an unconstitutional bill as proof?

Show us in the U.S. Constitution where they have the authority to pass such a bill.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 04:45 PM
way to move the goal post.

Yes, people that setup huge indoor grow houses use so much electricity that people start taking notice. They also have an array of lights that amount to 100+ 100w bulbs in use. Often times, the investigation begins because the electical company suspects someone is stealing your electricity, or that their equipment is faulty.

nobody will ever be able to tell if a person is running a few 100w bulbs, as you tried to insinuate.





Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
nobody will ever be able to tell if a person is running a few 100w bulbs, as you tried to insinuate.

I will take action on that.

Wanna bet?

How much?

I'm not a betting man, so I only bet on sure things:

The AgileWaves whole house home energy monitoring system, that will monitor down to each outlet and what's on it.



Highly Detailed Information Puts Users In Control
Sometimes it can be hard to figure out where your energy is going within your home. But with monitoring systems like this, the information can get extremely detailed. With Agilewaves' system, users can look at energy use in each room of the home, and will soon be able to see pinpointed information down to even the exact appliance and outlet.

Already, a parent can see if their teen has been watching television in their room all night long. But in the next iteration of the system, they'll be able to pinpoint, say, a leaky irrigation system as the reason for a spike in their water bill.

Additionally, the system itself uses an extremely low wattage - between 20 and 30 watts depending on the size of the system - so it makes as little impact on homeowners' energy use as possible.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/09/agilewaves-shows-off-user-friendly-home-energy-monitoring-system-at-wcg-2008.php

Razmear
05-17-2011, 04:48 PM
LOL, you pointed to an unconstitutional bill as proof?

Show us in the U.S. Constitution where they have the authority to pass such a bill.

Article I, Section 8, Clause 3:

Razmear
05-17-2011, 04:49 PM
Just goes to show this is a big tent campaign, we even get fasco-authoritarian types jumping on board lol

I think I'm the only one here actually defending the ban, and I jumped on board about 4 years before you did.

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-17-2011, 04:51 PM
Ummm, I'd go without light bulbs before submitting to this B.S. To be honest, I don't really use light bulbs anyway. Usually my television or monitor light is sufficient for me to get something done at night. I mean, it's not like we have to write essays on paper anymore, just type it on a P.C. Even your refrigerator lights up when you open it. I hope this gets repealed though, same with the toilet crap.

FrankRep
05-17-2011, 04:51 PM
I think I'm the only one here actually defending the ban, and I jumped on board about 4 years before you did.
Does the Federal Government have the Constitutional authority to Ban Light Bulbs?

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 04:51 PM
Article I, Section 8, Clause 3:

Ha ha ha.... the Commerce Clause?
Go on....

Razmear
05-17-2011, 04:54 PM
Ha ha ha.... the Commerce Clause?
Go on....

You asked what gives them the authority, and that is the answer. Sorry if you don't like it. ha ha ha...

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 04:56 PM
I cannot believe people are actually defending this. Bottom line is that the government has zero right to tell me what bulbs I can or cannot use.

don't confuse defending this, with arguing with idiots trying to scare people about technology that doesn't exist.

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 04:59 PM
I'm not a betting man, so I only bet on sure things:

The AgileWaves whole house home energy monitoring system, that will monitor down to each outlet and what's on it.


there you go, moving the goal post again. you said they can tell if you are using a 100w incandescent bulb. this will only tell THE USER that a given outlet is drawing 100 watts. it could be a hair dryer, or something else, and it only reports to the user.

Razmear
05-17-2011, 05:00 PM
Does the Federal Government have the Constitutional authority to Ban Light Bulbs?



As early as Tuesday, the South Carolina House will begin debating a bill that would allow companies to manufacture incandescent bulbs in South Carolina as long as they stamp them "Made in South Carolina" and sell them only within the state. Supporters of the bill say the federal government would have no authority to intervene because its power to regulate business extends only to commerce that crosses state lines.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110328/ap_on_re_us/us_light_bulbs_states

They have the authority to ban interstate trafficking of light bulbs via the Commerce Clause.

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 05:03 PM
Guess each state needs to manufacture it's own light bulbs. :D

Danke
05-17-2011, 05:08 PM
Wow, didn't know we had so many that detest the free market here.

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 05:14 PM
Guess each state needs to manufacture it's own light bulbs. :D

that old court case concerning the guy growing wheat on his own field for his own use was still ruled as interstate commerce.

so if an activity that didn't even include commerce is commerce, then what hope does South Carolina have engaging in actual commerce?

FrankRep
05-17-2011, 05:16 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110328/ap_on_re_us/us_light_bulbs_states

They have the authority to ban interstate trafficking of light bulbs via the Commerce Clause.

You don't understand how the government banned the Incandescent Bulb, therefore, you're wrong on the Government's Constitutional authority.

The Bill: Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, aims to mandate lower energy usage by imposing energy consumption levels on individuals. That's UnConstitutional.

This UnConstitutional Bill also included a section that banned the Incandescent Bulb.


Source:

Republicans Seek Repeal of Incandescent Bulb Ban
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/tech-mainmenu-30/environment/6392-republicans-seek-repeal-of-incandescent-bulb-ban

Bring Back the Incandescent Bulb
http://www.votervoice.net/core.aspx?AID=972&Screen=alert&IssueId=23696&APP=GAC&SiteID=-1&VV_CULTURE=en-us

Dr.3D
05-17-2011, 05:18 PM
that old court case concerning the guy growing wheat on his own field for his own use was still ruled as interstate commerce.

so if an activity that didn't even include commerce is commerce, then what hope does South Carolina have engaging in actual commerce?
It's starting to sound like they need to abolish every federal law and start over.

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 05:19 PM
The Bill: Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, aims to mandate lower energy usage by imposing energy consumption levels on individuals. That's UnConstitutional.

sure, but the original intent of the constitution is powerless to help us.

FrankRep
05-17-2011, 05:22 PM
sure, but the original intent of the constitution is powerless to help us.

We have weapons.




http://www.ohiofreedom.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/cover_null_lg-195x300.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596981490?ie=UTF8&tag=libert0f-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1596981490)

Nullification: How to Resist Federal Tyranny in the 21st Century (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596981490?ie=UTF8&tag=libert0f-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1596981490)
- Thomas E. Woods Jr


State vs. Federal: The Nullification Movement (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/constitution/2957-state-vs-federal-the-nullification-movement)

Because the Supreme Court has for many years interpreted the Constitution in a manner to further empower the federal government, states are moving to take power back from the feds through a growing and vibrant nullification movement. By Patrick Krey

Nullification in a Nutshell (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/history/american/2971-nullification-in-a-nutshell)

The modern-day nullification movement has as its genesis the principle of federalism and the writings of James Madison and Thomas Jefferson, in particularly the famous Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions of 1798, supporting the right of states to nullify unconstitutional federal usurpations. By Patrick Krey

fisharmor
05-17-2011, 05:30 PM
At least I can expect an intelligent and respectful argument from you on the issues, which I appreciate.

Whereas I appreciate it when people who have been supporting libertarian ideas for so long as you bother to learn some economic fundamentals about the position.
If I am being disrespectful it is because your underlying assertion is that markets don't work, and that government control of individual action is a good thing.
Yours is an inherently anti-private property, anti-market, anti-free trade, and anti-liberty position, and I do not respect it. If we were at a party or on a subway I might hold my tongue, but your position is inappropriate in a place ostensibly devoted to liberty.

I would also note that at no point did I assert that you are unintelligent.

Razmear
05-17-2011, 05:30 PM
The Bill: Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, aims to mandate lower energy usage by imposing energy consumption levels on individuals. That's UnConstitutional.

the bill imposes standards of manufacturing on companies, it does not prohibit individuals from arc welding in their living room to produce light, or ban them from using light bulbs.
In the course of being the sole advocate here for banning the bulbs, I've had a chance to read significant portions of the bill. It set standards like having 'wall warts' automatically switch between load and no load modes when their not charging something, sets efficiency standards for air conditioners, and a bunch of other stuff.
The bill is not just some evil plot to make people buy CFL's or to remotely scan your house for light bulbs so they can do a gestapo raid on your house and confiscate them from ya.
The bulbs are obsolete and other than acting as a heat source they have little practical use anymore.

Time to watch the Bruins game and stop wasting time talking about light bulbs.
eb

Razmear
05-17-2011, 05:33 PM
I would also note that at no point did I assert that you are unintelligent.

And I appreciate that, think you did call me a jackass at some point, but it's all good. :D

Sorry, but hockey is more important than light bulbs, so I'm off for now.

specsaregood
05-17-2011, 05:48 PM
//

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 06:07 PM
there you go, moving the goal post again. you said they can tell if you are using a 100w incandescent bulb. this will only tell THE USER that a given outlet is drawing 100 watts. it could be a hair dryer, or something else, and it only reports to the user.

*sigh*

Read it again.


down to even the exact appliance and outlet.

And if it will tell the user it will tell the utility.

I know it's scary, and I know you don't want to believe it, but, it's true.

LibertyRevolution
05-17-2011, 06:13 PM
I dont think they should ban light blubs... I should be able to light my house with whatever bulb I choose.

On a side note, better watch out you bitcoin miners, they going to think you growing pot running 2000watts of power supplys.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 06:14 PM
LOL, not much of a thinker in terms of future applications are ya? As an inventor/programmer/thinker I can assure that it is only a matter of time until the communications are standardized and the system WILL know exactly what make/model of the item drawing that electricity. Hell, it probably already exists -- it ain't rocket science. as far as it only reporting to "the user". Sure, now. But it doesn't take much of a leap to figure that won't always be the case.

Yup, already exists.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?293579-Are-You-Ready-to-Pay-50-for-a-100-Watt-Bulb&p=3282726&viewfull=1#post3282726

invisible
05-17-2011, 09:42 PM
Candles and oil lamps? Gee, too bad the city where I live made them illegal a few years back with an "open flame law", along with kerosene heaters and being able to solder on your plumbing or air conditioning systems. And of course a few years before that, it became a "housing code" violation to not have utility service.

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 09:48 PM
LOL, not much of a thinker in terms of future applications are ya? As an inventor/programmer/thinker I can assure that it is only a matter of time until the communications are standardized and the system WILL know exactly what make/model of the item drawing that electricity. Hell, it probably already exists -- it ain't rocket science. as far as it only reporting to "the user". Sure, now. But it doesn't take much of a leap to figure that won't always be the case.

I have spent 20 years in i/t and I will be happy to bet with you that your big vision is idiotic. how much time do you need - 20 years? 30 years? no way will devices, outlets, meters, and every other piece of infrastructure be changed so govt can figure out who is using inefficient types of household items.

this stuff right here - this is why we run into electability issues. Ron Paul can only do so much, he can't combat this type of idiocy and paranoia coming from his supporters.

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 09:49 PM
*sigh*

Read it again.



And if it will tell the user it will tell the utility.

I know it's scary, and I know you don't want to believe it, but, it's true.

you believe everything you read?

you have any fucking idea how this works? baaaa baaaa. I read something on the internet, it must be true. baaaa baaaaaa

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 10:00 PM
Yup, already exists.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?293579-Are-You-Ready-to-Pay-50-for-a-100-Watt-Bulb&p=3282726&viewfull=1#post3282726

nope, the marketing says it will soon.

what it doesn't say, is that the system can blindly decipher what type of device is plugged in. I'd bet dollars to donuts you have to provide a little info for it to report on the type of device and it can only detect the energy draw, polarity, etc.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 10:02 PM
you believe everything you read?

you have any fucking idea how this works? baaaa baaaa. I read something on the internet, it must be true. baaaa baaaaaa

WTF are you talking about?

Are you telling me the wired, interactive, "smart house" doesn't exist?

Next you'll be telling me that "smart phones" that track and monitor your location are a figment of my imagination as well.

I suppose these people are committing fraud by selling these devices that, if you're will willing to spend for the top of the line model will monitor four complete circuits in individual or aggregate mode along with five individual appliances?

This is just one of hundreds of whole house electrical monitoring systems that do not just monitor total house usage but can monitor usage right down to the individual circuit and tell what type of appliance is on it. Bet your ass they will link in with the wireless smart meters.



http://www.theenergydetective.com/media/catalog/product//1/small_image/265x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/5/0/5004-crework.jpg

TED 5004-C
$455.80
Model 5004-C comes with all the components necessary to monitor energy usage from four sources, along with a sleek, wireless display. Users can access their data on their computer or mobile device to track energy usage, monitor up to five individual appliances, project monthly bills, and view historical data. The data from all four MTUs is logged/graphed separately, but can also be seen in aggregate as well.

The TED 5004-C package has the option to integrate with Google PowerMeter and includes:
-Four Measuring Transmitting Units with four sets of Current Transformers (Four MTU/CT sets)
-One Gateway embedded with Footprints software
-One sleek, wireless Display with AC/DC charger and charging stand

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 10:03 PM
nope, the marketing says it will soon.

what it doesn't say, is that the system can blindly decipher what type of device is plugged in. I'd bet dollars to donuts you have to provide a little info for it to report on the type of device and it can only detect the energy draw, polarity, etc.

Yes, that article was from 2009.

See my reply.

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 10:09 PM
WTF are you talking about?

I am talking about how you don't understand what the product can actually do. you read some tin foil hat articles, and ran with it.


Are you telling me the wired, interactive, "smart house" doesn't exist?

they can't tell the type of device that is plugged in. they can only detect signatures, like drain, polarity, etc. they can't do what you claim they can do.


Next you'll be telling me that "smart phones" that track and monitor your location are a figment of my imagination as well.

no. that is a straw man


I suppose these people are committing fraud by selling these devices that, if you're will willing to spend for the top of the line model will monitor four complete circuits in individual or aggregate mode along with five individual appliances?

again, they can't decipher what the 5 individual appliances are. If they report on the type of device, it is because you gave the system that information.

anf again, it is only user delivered info. the infrastructure upgrades needed to do this for all homes, and report to someone is just idiotic.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 10:19 PM
I am talking about how you don't understand what the product can actually do. you read some tin foil hat articles, and ran with it.

Umm, every article I posted was from a source that was laudatory of the new technology or from the manufacturer themselves.


they can't tell the type of device that is plugged in. they can only detect signatures, like drain, polarity, etc. they can't do what you claim they can do.

I have systems on my vessel that tell me what is on a circuit, what type of draw it's making and whether it's resistive, passive or inductive. Meaning I can tell by looking at the distribution board, whether it's an electric motor, a resistance appliance like a heater or incandescent light bulb or a "wall wart", electronics and so on. They are made by Siemans. While not wireless, it's possible to tie the whole system in to a wireless network to transmit the information.


anf again, it is only user delivered info. the infrastructure upgrades needed to do this for all homes, and report to someone is just idiotic.

I agree, it is idiotic.

Doesn't mean for one second it ain't gonna happen.

pcosmar
05-17-2011, 10:24 PM
I am talking about how you don't understand what the product can actually do. you read some tin foil hat articles, and ran with it.



Tin foil hat defense. That's the best you got?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication

There is a lot of information there. Feel free to research it a bit beyond the Wiki entry.

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 10:30 PM
Umm, every article I posted was from a source that was laudatory of the new technology or from the manufacturer themselves.

nothing you have posted indicates they can blindly detect the device plugged in, which was the intitial scare tactic you went with.


I have systems on my vessel that tell me what is on a circuit, what type of draw it's making and whether it's resistive, passive or inductive. Meaning I can tell by looking at the distribution board, whether it's an electric motor, a resistance appliance like a heater or incandescent light bulb or a "wall wart", electronics and so on. They are made by Siemans. While not wireless, it's possible to tie the whole system in to a wireless network to transmit the information.

you can not tell if the drain is an incandescent bulb, or a hair dryer, so long as they have the same energy demands, polarity, and other signature attributes.


Doesn't mean for one second it ain't gonna happen.

it isn't feasible, it ain't gonna happen.

specsaregood
05-17-2011, 10:31 PM
nope, the marketing says it will soon.

what it doesn't say, is that the system can blindly decipher what type of device is plugged in. I'd bet dollars to donuts you have to provide a little info for it to report on the type of device and it can only detect the energy draw, polarity, etc.

who needs blindly when the product manufacturers standardize and have their products send a little packet of info identifying it? hell, its just a minor extension of existing RFID to get it to send the info out over the electrical lines in the house.

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 10:33 PM
who needs blindly when the product manufacturers standardize and have their products send a little packet of info identifying it? hell, its just a minor extension of existing RFID to get it to send the info out over the electrical lines in the house.

so now every manufacturer is going to start transmitting device info so we can properly regulate 100 watt bulbs.

so we should expect a new agency soon assigning unique id's to company devices, right?

specsaregood
05-17-2011, 10:33 PM
Tin foil hat defense. That's the best you got?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication

There is a lot of information there. Feel free to research it a bit beyond the Wiki entry.

which is already what I use in my house. works great, better than wireless and easier than running cat5 everywhere.

specsaregood
05-17-2011, 10:38 PM
so now every manufacturer is going to start transmitting device info so we can properly regulate 100 watt bulbs.

so we should expect a new agency soon assigning unique id's to company devices, right?

sure, stuff is only gonna get even cheaper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-frequency_identification


RFID makes it possible to give each product in a grocery store its own unique identifying number, to provide assets, people, work in process, medical devices etc. all with individual unique identifiers - like the license plate on a car but for every item in the world.

as far as the new agency, I don't know. I'd have to look at how they are doing it already.

pcosmar
05-17-2011, 10:41 PM
as far as the new agency, I don't know. I'd have to look at how they are doing it already.
Hey.
enough with the "tin Foil hat stuff".
:rolleyes:

ARealConservative
05-17-2011, 10:41 PM
this thread screams to me that I am no longer a fit for these forums.

those with the most rep I have the least respect for.

so never mind me people. I'm slowly backing away towards the door.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 10:45 PM
Wow, what kind of rotten tooth nerve was tapped in this thread?

That's two people that just got up and walked out in a huff, after their initial contentions were shot down by documentation.

In a thread over light bulbs. That riled up twice as many people who walked out.

And government mandates that I would have thought, around here anyway, would have been a no brainer to oppose.

WTF?

Are you guys really that scared?


this thread screams to me that I am no longer a fit for these forums.

those with the most rep I have the least respect for.

so never mind me people. I'm slowly backing away towards the door.

Philmanoman
05-17-2011, 10:53 PM
Is this relevant to the discussion.Came across this on a simple search.It sounds like it can tell what appliances you have but I just briefly looked at it so Ill throw this out there.Too tired to read into it heheh.

http://www.geappliances.com/home-energy-manager/appliance-energy-consumption.htm

from the website:
The hand-sized Nucleus energy manager plugs into any standard electrical outlet, and is designed to wirelessly gather power usage information from your smart meter* (which provides whole home consumption data), as well as estimated consumption data from individual Brillion appliances and devices.
Install the software (included with your Nucleus) on your home computer to view and manage your electricity use. GE is also developing an innovative new smart phone application for even more energy monitoring and management.


The last sentence lol.

specsaregood
05-17-2011, 10:56 PM
Wow, what kind of rotten tooth nerve was tapped in this thread?
That's two people that just got up and walked out in a huff, after their initial contentions were shot down by documentation.
In a thread over light bulbs. That riled up twice as many people who walked out.
And government mandates that I would have thought, around here anyway, would have been a no brainer to oppose.
WTF?
Are you guys really that scared?

I don't even know what they are upset about. It is just technology, and there is obviously a consumer demand for it. Just like cellphones. I find it hard to believe that some can't see how some people in power might want to take advantage of that consumer demand for their own purposes. It doesn't mean they are pushing the demand.

pcosmar
05-17-2011, 10:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pPvyf0V_Ik

Not yet,
But expect it.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 11:02 PM
Is this relevant to the discussion.Came across this on a simple search.It sounds like it can tell what appliances you have but I just briefly looked at it so Ill throw this out there.Too tired to read into it heheh.

http://www.geappliances.com/home-energy-manager/appliance-energy-consumption.htm

It was, very relevant, thanks for posting.

It has a page that shows the product that everybody here is telling me I'm nuts for thinking exists.

Be on the market by Q3 2011.


Nucleus™ is a communication and data storage device that plugs into a regular home electrical outlet and communicates with the home's smart meter. It provides secure information about household electricity consumption and costs via simple home computer interfaces (and, in the near future, via smart phone applications) so you can make active choices to lower bills and improve energy efficiency. Nucleus can also be set to automatically control a GE smart thermostat or alter the consumption of GE smart appliances in response to utility price signals—adding new levels of convenience, savings potential, and control.

http://www.geappliances.com/home-energy-manager/home-energy-monitor-faqs.htm

specsaregood
05-17-2011, 11:06 PM
It has a page that shows the product that everybody here is telling me I'm nuts for thinking exists.
Be on the market by Q3 2011.


Case closed.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 11:07 PM
I don't even know what they are upset about. It is just technology, and there is obviously a consumer demand for it. Just like cellphones. I find it hard to believe that some can't see how some people in power might want to take advantage of that consumer demand for their own purposes. It doesn't mean they are pushing the demand.

I just posted the link to the GE Nucleus system that uses one simple plug in sensor that can monitor the whole house grid's usage and communicate with "smart meters" along with linking to "smart appliances".

I posted the system on my vessel that reads precisely how much, and what type, of use is on a particular circuit.

And it's somehow "ridiculous" to think that a smart grid meter could not read what types of loads are on the grid?

Deciphering whether the load on an AC circuit is inductive, passive or resistive is child's play, electronically speaking.

I posted numerous stories about how cops are already linked into to the utilities and using them to bust pot growers...WTF?

The Moravian
05-17-2011, 11:11 PM
Two Words:

No bans.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 11:14 PM
Candles and oil lamps? Gee, too bad the city where I live made them illegal a few years back with an "open flame law", along with kerosene heaters and being able to solder on your plumbing or air conditioning systems. And of course a few years before that, it became a "housing code" violation to not have utility service.

Where the hell is that?

WTF?

pcosmar
05-17-2011, 11:20 PM
Any bets on the progression, Based on past history.

Discouraged> Banned> Illegal> Prosecuted.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2011, 11:21 PM
Any bets on the progression, Based on past history.

Discouraged> Banned> Illegal> Prosecuted.

Shit, Pete, I wouldn't take that bet with odds.

The Moravian
05-17-2011, 11:21 PM
It doesn't matter whether the technology exists now or not. What matters is the principle of liberty. If we accept a ban on owning something, certainly something as innocuous as a light bulb, we give up on liberty. At that point, it's just a matter of time and technology until we lose liberty, even more than we've lost so far.

Krugerrand
05-18-2011, 07:55 AM
Not true.
Religion, gun ownership, etc are personal property issues. You do not own the power grid.
Electricity is a shared resource. If your community is having a drought, they will put in water bans saying you can't waste water by running your sprinklers all day because the greenness of your lawn is not as important as other people on the same closed system having enough water to flush their toilets.
In the same way, you using a light source that has a 3% efficiency rating is a drain on others using the same shared resource when there are far more efficient methods available.
btw, your eggs need a heat source to hatch, not a light source (I've never seen light coming out a chicken's ass). Incandescent bulbs are a great source of heat, which is why they are so inefficient as a source of illumination.

There's a frequently quoted article on either Mises or LewRockwell that explains how rationing (I don't remember if it was gas or water) does not work as efficiently as letting the free market control things - even in shortages. I've looked ... I can't find it. Anybody have it bookmarked?

oyarde
05-18-2011, 09:37 AM
Perhaps 100 Watt incandescent light bulbs could be a new currency. (If only they weren't so fragile.)

Yeah , in my neck of the woods I expect the new currency to be 12 gauge shells ..

oyarde
05-18-2011, 09:52 AM
Candles and oil lamps? Gee, too bad the city where I live made them illegal a few years back with an "open flame law", along with kerosene heaters and being able to solder on your plumbing or air conditioning systems. And of course a few years before that, it became a "housing code" violation to not have utility service.

Assholes , what is the penalty for candles & oil lamps ??

oyarde
05-18-2011, 09:56 AM
Two Words:

No bans.

Agreed , screw 'em !

Kelly.
05-18-2011, 11:38 AM
Well, that was a productive conversation...

until you can prove to me that a smart gird meter can tell the difference between a incandescent 100w bulb and any other 100w load, i still stand by my original statement.
until you can prove that someone will show up at your house for using a incandescent bulb, i stand by my original statement,
which was, the things you were stating as fact, are not fact.

fyi - i have lived in a city with smart gird meters. that same city has more dispensaries then starbucks, so they also know a bit about indoor grows.
to my knowledge no one that grows has been arrested / hassled due to using to much electricity and paying for it (stealing electricity is different)

Kelly.
05-18-2011, 11:45 AM
Trouble is, your new "smart meter" that electric utilities all across the country are installing, can detect the load of an incadescent bulb on your house grid.

Thus earning you a visit from Officer Friendly and his buddies:

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/swat.gif

ok, line by line:
your new "smart meter" that electric utilities all across the country are installing
~~ these are not being installed all across the country. they are in a few select cities.

can detect the load of an incadescent bulb on your house grid.
~~wrong, they can detect an additional 100w load in your house, they can not tell where that load is coming from. that is unless they can monitor every circuit individually, while at the same time being able to detect the different devices on that circuit. again not true.

Thus earning you a visit from Officer Friendly and his buddies:
~~ this assumes the previous statement is true, which it is not. i have yet to hear of someone getting a visit for using a 100w incandescent bulb, as you suggest.

im not arguing that government should/shouldnt outlaw the bulbs, i agree they shouldnt.
but when you say things like the above, as if they are fact, you are spreading information that is wrong.
it amazes me that other people hear will read this and just let it fly knowing it is wrong.

Krugerrand
05-18-2011, 11:52 AM
i have yet to hear of someone getting a visit for using a 100w incandescent bulb

I'm sure it was once said:

I have yet to hear of someone getting a visit for selling raw milk.

I have yet to hear of someone getting a visit for paying somebody in current US Mint gold coin.

I have yet to hear of someone getting a visit for what plants they grow in their basement.

I have yet to hear of someone getting a visit for how they medicate their child.

Kelly.
05-18-2011, 11:54 AM
until it becomes true, it is untrue, which is the point i was making.

Dr.3D
05-18-2011, 11:58 AM
Assholes , what is the penalty for candles & oil lamps ??

"No soup for you!"

pcosmar
05-18-2011, 11:58 AM
ok, line by line:



I live in a very rural area. Not in or near a city, On a electric C0-Op. They installed the "smart meters" a couple years ago.

The bulbs in question have not been Outlawed yet. But they are being discouraged and discontinued.
It is not unreasonable to expect them to be outlawed soon.

This thread is looking at the likely possibilities of upcoming laws and their likely enforcement. Based on past experience with laws and their enforcement.

Kelly.
05-18-2011, 12:08 PM
I live in a very rural area. Not in or near a city, On a electric C0-Op. They installed the "smart meters" a couple years ago.

The bulbs in question have not been Outlawed yet. But they are being discouraged and discontinued.
It is not unreasonable to expect them to be outlawed soon.

This thread is looking at the likely possibilities of upcoming laws and their likely enforcement. Based on past experience with laws and their enforcement.

im only referring to AF's specific post, where he stated something as fact, when it was not.

do you believe that:
1 - incandescent bulbs will be made illegal (not just hard to get, but it will be a crime to posses one)
2 - the smart meter will be able to tell you are specifically using a 100w incandescent bulb, vs a different 100w load
3 - some authority will show up at your house because you are using a 100w incandescent bulb (after #1 and #2 happen)

it was said as fact, when it is not.

we can keep arguing about this portion of it, or we can drop it as it is pretty obvious that it isnt fact.

pcosmar
05-18-2011, 12:15 PM
im only referring to AF's specific post, where he stated something as fact, when it was not.



it was said as fact, when it is not.

we can keep arguing about this portion of it, or we can drop it as it is pretty obvious that it isnt fact.

I did not see any such posted as present fact.
I saw it posted as a likelihood in the near future.

And very likely unless it is stopped.

jmdrake
05-18-2011, 12:26 PM
No- that isn't your only choice (and no, I was not refering to armed force either but a lack of choice). Today you can get as six pack of 100w equivelent CFL lights for under $14. http://www.amazon.com/Watt-Energy-Smart-CFL-Replacement/dp/B000UYF80S That is a bit over $2 a piece.

And they SUCK! When we built our new house I was all CFL[1] crazy. It took me a while to be honest with myself and realize that compact fluorescents were half as bright. Using a dimmer switch on an incandescent bulb might yield similar energy savings. Plus the CFLs contain mercury. How many people ignore the warnings and just throw these toxic bulbs into the trash? And lastly, if the incandescents are being banned then we are being forced to buy this new crap like it or not. If the "energy saving" bulbs become bright enough, cheap enough, and disposable in a regular trash can and/or recycle bin like incandescents then the market will support them without government interference. Who likes to change light bulbs if they don't have to? (No pun intended).

[1]Just noticed the Campaign For Liberty has the same initials.

Anti Federalist
05-18-2011, 07:00 PM
ok, line by line:
your new "smart meter" that electric utilities all across the country are installing
~~ these are not being installed all across the country. they are in a few select cities.

Untrue:

A million smart grid meters in SoCal.

http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/Technologies_Metering/SoCal-Edison-Milestone-One-Million-Smart-Meters-Installed-2667.html

Two million mark last year:

Secretary Chu Announces Two Million Smart Grid Meters Installed Nationwide (this is from last year)

http://www.energy.gov/9433.htm

Smart meters to be installed in every Vermont home.

http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/90898/

Fed officials pressing Obama to install 50 million smart meters by 2015.

http://www.intelligentutility.com/article/11/04/americas-direction-smart-grid


can detect the load of an incadescent bulb on your house grid.
~~wrong, they can detect an additional 100w load in your house, they can not tell where that load is coming from. that is unless they can monitor every circuit individually, while at the same time being able to detect the different devices on that circuit. again not true.

Already proved true, in multiple posts in this thread. That is precisely what the new whole house monitors can do, track usage right down to the circuit and precisely what kind of load is on it. I have such a system on the vessel I run.


Thus earning you a visit from Officer Friendly and his buddies:
~~ this assumes the previous statement is true, which it is not. i have yet to hear of someone getting a visit for using a 100w incandescent bulb, as you suggest.

The previous statements are true. Now, how long it will take before it gets to the point of Officer Friendly kicking your door in because of "contraband electrical products" on the grid, is up for debate. I gave no timeframe in my OP. However, I'll be willing to cede the point that it is likely that will earn a visit from Officer Friendly at some unknown point in the future.

To say it will never happen is just silly, even though it seems outlandish now.

But if I had told you 15 years ago that in order to fly a naked picture would have to be taken of you, or submit to an intrusive prison type hand search, you'd have said I was nuts as well.

Anti Federalist
07-17-2011, 11:29 PM
this thread screams to me that I am no longer a fit for these forums.

those with the most rep I have the least respect for.

so never mind me people. I'm slowly backing away towards the door.

Huh, whaddya know? I guess I really did run him off, that was his last post.

Pity, he couldn't read this thread and this post from a RPF member who is actually in the business of smart meter technology.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?303388-Smart-Meters-Nightmare-or-Boon


Sure. As I said in my post, there are real serious implications with these things. I apologize for the length of my posts, but I've been working on this stuff for the last few years in great detail. Act 129 in PA has forced us to implement a program that we know is not cost-effective.

In my 2nd reason, I touched on the "surveillance" capabilities. But let me get more in depth. These meters measure how much electricity you are using in intervals as small as 5 minutes. (usually it's 15-30, but depending on the meter can be as low as 5) This usage will be sent back to the power company on a regular basis (our plan calls for each hour). These intervals will be sent in many ways. Your meter may have a cell phone chip, it may send it over the power line, it may go over the phone line (rare) or it may go through "meter hops". That's when your interval is sent to another meter, then another, then another, until it gets to a central collection hub. This is a self-healing network so even when something interferes with the transmission, your data will find another way to report in. We will still lose some intervals, but our MDMS (meter data management system) will be able to calculate typical usage for any interval for any home. We will be able to estimate any missed intervals based upon typical usage, time of day, temperature, neighbors' usage, and other variables. If your usage for any interval is atypical, it will send us an alarm. We'll be getting tons of alarms so our system will filter out some and only send us the really important ones to examine. That's scary enough, but it gets worse.

Smart meters are also design to be linked up to In-Home Devices and Programmable Controllable Thermostats (IHD's and PCT's). These will be for your convenice, of course. With the IHD, you will be able to see how much power you're using at any given moment and the cost of each kWh. That way you can adjust your usage for off-peak periods and save money. We can also send you messages through your IHD. (It will be on the wall inside your home - yeah, I know!) The PCT's are even more scary. You can hook up appliances (AC, water heater, refrigerator, etc.) and during times of peak periods, you can allow us to turn down these devices for you even if you're not home.

So what does this mean? Your power company will have complete knowledge of everyone's typical usage. Any anomalies will be flagged for investigation. We will also have the capability to actually adjust the usage of our customers. The thing that really makes this scary is that, while this will help us conduct our business, we know it costs too much to be worth it. So what's the real reason why the government is making us do it? Once this system is in place and functional, I can easily foresee them taking over. Act 129 has provisions in the law that if we don't meet certain energy reduction thresholds, then the government can come in to tell us how to run it. And once they have access to our systems for one purpose, you know they'll utilize it for others.

Smart meters are bad. Really, really bad. I didn't mean to have my post leave the opposite impression. It's the privacy concerns that are the problem, though, just not the health concerns. I've done quite a bit of studying on everything I've seen shows them to be safe to you health. They are not safe to your freedom though.

amonasro
07-17-2011, 11:43 PM
No one's going to come knocking down doors for using incandescent bulbs. Get a grip. People still use dimmers.

That said I still prefer incandescent bulbs in a number of applications, most notably for reading and on my piano. Halogens are nice and bright too, but generate more heat.

FYI professional orchestras still use use incandescent music stand lights. Why? Less possibility of error. CFLs dim over time, incandescents don't.

Anti Federalist
07-17-2011, 11:53 PM
No one's going to come knocking down doors for using incandescent bulbs. Get a grip. People still use dimmers.

No one's going to come knocking down doors for using raw milk. Get a grip. People still drink milkshakes.

TheViper
07-17-2011, 11:57 PM
No one's going to come knocking down doors for using raw milk. Get a grip. People still drink milkshakes.

And they don't bust up kids lemonade stands either.

amy31416
07-17-2011, 11:59 PM
No one's going to come knocking down doors for using raw milk. Get a grip. People still drink milkshakes.

We just had a pretty large electric bill due to fans to cool the computers, and I gotta admit--I'm paranoid. Should I look for a bullet-proof vest for my dog?

Anti Federalist
07-18-2011, 12:05 AM
We just had a pretty large electric bill due to fans to cool the computers, and I gotta admit--I'm paranoid. Should I look for a bullet-proof vest for my dog?

http://comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/9357/body_armor_dog_1.jpg

Dr.3D
07-18-2011, 12:07 AM
I can just see it now... another war......

"The War on Waste. (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003116,00.html)"

........ but this time being held up as protecting the environment.

amy31416
07-18-2011, 12:10 AM
http://comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/9357/body_armor_dog_1.jpg

That would look so freaking good on her. :)

Anti Federalist
07-18-2011, 12:13 AM
I can just see it now... another war......

"The War on Waste. (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003116,00.html)"

........ but this time being held up as protecting the environment.

What Time thought of the issue in 1966:

Essay: IN DEFENSE OF WASTE
Friday, Nov. 18, 1966

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,828409,00.html#ixzz1SR14YVCS

Danke
07-18-2011, 12:17 AM
We just had a pretty large electric bill due to fans to cool the computers, and I gotta admit--I'm paranoid. Should I look for a bullet-proof vest for my dog?

No, just arm Kludge. And stand back.

amy31416
07-18-2011, 12:21 AM
No, just arm Kludge. And stand back.

Gladly, I have a basement.

Dr.3D
07-18-2011, 12:53 AM
What Time thought of the issue in 1966:

Essay: IN DEFENSE OF WASTE
Friday, Nov. 18, 1966

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,828409,00.html#ixzz1SR14YVCS

Yup, that's Time.....

But of course I have heard they are connected with the string pullers.

LibertyRevolution
07-18-2011, 01:51 AM
We just had a pretty large electric bill due to fans to cool the computers, and I gotta admit--I'm paranoid. Should I look for a bullet-proof vest for my dog?

LoL, I wouldn't worry to much.

For example, here is just my computer room wattage:

Gaming PC (AMD x6 3.2Ghz, GTX 570, 8GB DDR3 1600, 1.2TB Raid-0 HDD) = 750w
Media PC (AMD x2 2.4Ghz, 4GB DDR2 800, wintv card, 7 HDD total = 5.5TB) = 450w
Girlfriends PC (AMD x4 3.2Ghz, 4870 1GB, 4GB DDR2 800) = 550w
Gaming monitor (32" Samsung HDTV) = 130w
Media monitor (32" Dynex HDTV) = 180 w
Girlfriends monitor (22" Acer LCD) = 55w
Gaming PC speakers = 56w
Media PC speakers = 40w
Girlfriend PC speakers = 3w
Network Printer = 26w

Computers Total = 2240w
---------
Ceiling light = 52w (2 compact florescent 26w 100w equivalent bulbs)
Gaming desk lamp = 26w (compact florescent 100w equivalent)
Media desk lamp = 13w (compact florescent 60w equivalent)
Girlfriends desk lamp = 13w (compact florescent 60w equivalent)

Lighting total = 104w
---------
Air conditioner = 515w (running all this electronics makes it hot in here all the time)
---------
Wii= 18w (thought it be more than that)
---------

My computer room total wattage = 2877watts
Good thing I'm saving 300w on light blubs...

What my 2900w of computer room looks like:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2530/5822724290_57f1cde18e_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3017/5822724302_765c793b22_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5147/5822724306_b983244283_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5275/5822724312_bca96d5b15_b.jpg

Travlyr
07-18-2011, 02:57 AM
Yup, that's Time.....

But of course I have heard they are connected with the string pullers.
Would that be the same string pullers that pulled the rug out from underneath the most environmentally friendly plant known to man - hemp?

BamaAla
07-18-2011, 03:23 AM
I replaced two light bulbs with LED recently, and I intend to replace all my bulbs with LED as the existing ones die out. Also recently upgraded to LED tv...LED is taking over my life! I was willing to pay the extra cost because of the promises; I'll let you know how they worked out in 30,000 hours.

oyarde
07-18-2011, 10:45 AM
No , but I am prepared to sell them for less than that :)

Anti Federalist
07-21-2011, 07:17 PM
Yeah, I suppose it is. It's probably still a few years away, but the foot's in the door.

Thanks for your input, it's appreciated.

What is happening here, in case you were curious, is a long simmering argument that revolved around a statement that I made in a "mandated CFL lighting" thread, where I said that using prohibited lighting will get you a visit from the cops in the future, as they will be able to monitor precise electrical usage amount and what is using it.

In other words a prohibited incandescent bulb being used could be picked up by the smart grid, reported back to the utility, who then report it to the cops, thus earning your visit from Officer Friendly and his pals.

I was told, in no uncertain terms, that I was nuts, that no such system was possible, even after posting links to commercially available units that are on the market right now, that can monitor exact usage on each part of house grid and what type of appliance is using that power.

Like this one, just for example:


Highly Detailed Information Puts Users In Control

Sometimes it can be hard to figure out where your energy is going within your home. But with monitoring systems like this, the information can get extremely detailed. With Agilewaves' system, users can look at energy use in each room of the home, and will soon be able to see pinpointed information down to even the exact appliance and outlet.

Already, a parent can see if their teen has been watching television in their room all night long. But in the next iteration of the system, they'll be able to pinpoint, say, a leaky irrigation system as the reason for a spike in their water bill.

Additionally, the system itself uses an extremely low wattage - between 20 and 30 watts depending on the size of the system - so it makes as little impact on homeowners' energy use as possible.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008...t-wcg-2008.php

Here's a GE system that does that, will be on the market in the fall:


Nucleus™ is a communication and data storage device that plugs into a regular home electrical outlet and communicates with the home's smart meter. It provides secure information about household electricity consumption and costs via simple home computer interfaces (and, in the near future, via smart phone applications) so you can make active choices to lower bills and improve energy efficiency. Nucleus can also be set to automatically control a GE smart thermostat or alter the consumption of GE smart appliances in response to utility price signals—adding new levels of convenience, savings potential, and control.
http://www.geappliances.com/home-ene...nitor-faqs.htm

Here's another system:


TED 5004-C
$455.80
Model 5004-C comes with all the components necessary to monitor energy usage from four sources, along with a sleek, wireless display. Users can access their data on their computer or mobile device to track energy usage, monitor up to five individual appliances, project monthly bills, and view historical data. The data from all four MTUs is logged/graphed separately, but can also be seen in aggregate as well.

The TED 5004-C package has the option to integrate with Google PowerMeter and includes:
-Four Measuring Transmitting Units with four sets of Current Transformers (Four MTU/CT sets)
-One Gateway embedded with Footprints software
-One sleek, wireless Display with AC/DC charger and charging stand

http://www.theenergydetective.com/store/ted-5000

To me, it's no stretch whatsoever to think that information could not be linked in to the smart grid system and thus transmitted to the utility.

Now, of course these are stand alone IHDs that have to be linked into the system, but as the technology rapidly progresses I can see these being incorporated into the smart meter itself, or maybe IHDs being mandated.

That government would mandate that your home have an IHD that can constantly monitor and report back to the grid what you are using at any particular time is no more nuts technologically or politically speaking than government mandating that buy health insurance or...banning light bulbs.

I can see this happening in the next couple of years and also (joy) being used as the "camel's nose" to start placing video surveillance into private homes as well, once the precedent has been set.

Kelly.
07-22-2011, 08:49 AM
lol

RideTheDirt
07-22-2011, 11:48 AM
Firstly, I didn't force anything. This was a Bush Administration approved policy from 2007 that is scheduled to go into effect in 2012.

Do I agree with doing away with incandescent lights, yes, because they are just about the least efficient method to produce light available. It was a revolutionary idea in the 1800's, but they are now obsolete.
All these yahoo's rant about energy independence, and how we have to blow up other countries to secure our 'national interests', but then want to cling onto these obsolete energy wasting light bulbs to show how much freedom of choice the American public has.
It's a BS issue, go ahead and ban the things, and if you want to hoard black market light bulbs, or use reptile lights in your reading lamp more power to ya, jackass.
logged in just to neg rep you for this post

oyarde
07-22-2011, 04:31 PM
Once I get into the hundred watt bulb business , I am thinking of offering a free bumper sticker with each purchase . " Cops hate dogs and Lemonade".

FrankRep
03-10-2012, 09:22 AM
Gov‘t Backed ’Green’ Light Bulb Meant to be Affordable Costs $50 (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/govt-backed-green-lightbulb-hits-markets%E2%80%A6costs-50/)


The Blaze
March 9, 2012



The U.S. government last year announced a $10 million award (the “L Prize”) for any manufacturer who could create a “green” but affordable LED light bulb, The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/government-subsidized-green-light-bulb-carries-costly-price-tag/2012/03/07/gIQAFxOD0R_story.html) reports.

Energy Secretary Steven Chu said the prize would encourage companies to find a way to make the expensive LED lights more “affordable for American families.” The administration was also careful to inject a “buy American” element into the prize deal – potions of the light had to be manufactured in the U.S.

The prize was awarded to Phillips, the bulb was developed and built, and it’s ready for market. It costs $50.

HOLLYWOOD
03-10-2012, 09:48 AM
CORPORATE FASCISM... Energy Secretary Steven Chu is just a puppet. This government is a joke with an exception of constantly stealing yours & my money. Multi billion dollar congomerate given $10 million from the current regime(s) occupying Washington. DC. lol $50... wait until inflation kicks in over the next 5 years, we'll be back up to $100, lol
Gov‘t Backed ’Green’ Light Bulb Meant to be Affordable Costs $50 (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/govt-backed-green-lightbulb-hits-markets…costs-50/)
The Blaze
March 9, 2012
The U.S. government last year announced a $10 million award (the “L Prize”) for any manufacturer who could create a “green” but affordable LED light bulb, The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/government-subsidized-green-light-bulb-carries-costly-price-tag/2012/03/07/gIQAFxOD0R_story.html) reports.

Energy Secretary Steven Chu said the prize would encourage companies to find a way to make the expensive LED lights more “affordable for American families.” The administration was also careful to inject a “buy American” element into the prize deal – potions of the light had to be manufactured in the U.S.

The prize was awarded to Phillips, the bulb was developed and built, and it’s ready for market. It costs $50.

rockerrockstar
03-10-2012, 09:49 AM
So why can't we get this law repealed. Seems crazy to be told what kind of light bulb to be used. $50 a light bulb is crazy. How can congress vote for these things is beyond me.

ClydeCoulter
03-10-2012, 10:19 AM
Anti Federalist said:

To me, it's no stretch whatsoever to think that information could not be linked in to the smart grid system and thus transmitted to the utility.



Yep, I'm a Software Systems Architect, have worked with hardware (ie, electical) at all levels for most of my adult career (I'm 57), am an inovator in communications and software, and I vouch for this being most likely in the very near future.

Wow, who would of thunk it? Someday they are gonna computerize my car, can even shut it off from the sky!

Anti Federalist
03-10-2012, 01:55 PM
Anti Federalist said:


Yep, I'm a Software Systems Architect, have worked with hardware (ie, electical) at all levels for most of my adult career (I'm 57), am an inovator in communications and software, and I vouch for this being most likely in the very near future.

Wow, who would of thunk it? Someday they are gonna computerize my car, can even shut it off from the sky!

There you have it.

Zippyjuan
03-10-2012, 02:48 PM
A utility really doesn't care what your are using your electricity on- they only need to know how much energy you use so they know how much they need to supply and what to charge you for. It does not gain them any useful information to collect data on every lightbult within their system and it would cost them more money to collect such data which would reduce their profits. Theoretically possible but why would they do it? And if they did identify you were using a 100 watt bulb, then what? Cut off electricy to the entire house? The wiring in the house is your responsiblity so you would have to connect all the sensors within your own home to track what each outlet is using.

Any appliance would have to have some sort of chip which relayed back info as to what was plugged into an outlet in order for the system to be able to identify what was actually using the electricity- otherwise it would only be able to say outlet #3 in the living room is using 75 watts (or whatever). Could be a lamp or a radio or a hair drier or laptop or battery charger or whatever.

onlyrp
03-10-2012, 02:54 PM
Contact Congress! -- Let's Bring Back the Inefficient old light bulb that doesn't contain mercury because I hate new technology and care more about choices and jobs,
http://www.votervoice.net/core.aspx?APP=GAC&AID=972&IssueID=23696&SiteID=-1

If the bulb was cheap, somebody will complain that it's subsidized, if it's expensive, somebody will complain that it's not subsidized.

onlyrp
03-10-2012, 02:55 PM
A utility really doesn't care what your are using your electricity on- they only need to know how much energy you use so they know how much they need to supply and what to charge you for. It does not gain them any useful information to collect data on every lightbult within their system and it would cost them more money to collect such data which would reduce their profits. Theoretically possible but why would they do it? And if they did identify you were using a 100 watt bulb, then what? Cut off electricy to the entire house? The wiring in the house is your responsiblity so you would have to connect all the sensors within your own home to track what each outlet is using.

Any appliance would have to have some sort of chip which relayed back info as to what was plugged into an outlet in order for the system to be able to identify what was actually using the electricity- otherwise it would only be able to say outlet #3 in the living room is using 75 watts (or whatever). Could be a lamp or a radio or a hair drier or laptop or battery charger or whatever.

you notice how these people aren't pushing to ban flourescent tubes or preserving desktops, typewriters, VHS, CD stores, DVD rentals, bookstores?

TomtheTinker
03-10-2012, 03:34 PM
Im going to buy a gas generator , hundreds of incandescent light bulbs and roll up a fatty...call me a rebel

onlyrp
03-10-2012, 04:21 PM
Im going to buy a gas generator , hundreds of incandescent light bulbs and roll up a fatty...call me a rebel

hoarders win!

Sullivan*
03-10-2012, 04:31 PM
I want an LED bulb. Not because the government says I have to buy it, because I think it's neat and a good idea. Some people actually CAN'T use the new types of bulbs because of vision impairments, and I believe that this is a form of discrimination against those individuals, however indirectly. GOVERNMENT, if you can here me, GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY MARKETPLACE. No one wants you there, even if half the country doesn't realize it yet.

Anti Federalist
03-10-2012, 04:48 PM
Zippy, love ya brother, but really, you have no imagination at all.

You must be an engineer.

Headline 10 March 2015:

ConEd first Utility in the Nation to take advantage of DHS grants to monitor Household Electric Use by appliance.




A utility really doesn't care what your are using your electricity on- they only need to know how much energy you use so they know how much they need to supply and what to charge you for. It does not gain them any useful information to collect data on every lightbult within their system and it would cost them more money to collect such data which would reduce their profits. Theoretically possible but why would they do it? And if they did identify you were using a 100 watt bulb, then what? Cut off electricy to the entire house? The wiring in the house is your responsiblity so you would have to connect all the sensors within your own home to track what each outlet is using.

Any appliance would have to have some sort of chip which relayed back info as to what was plugged into an outlet in order for the system to be able to identify what was actually using the electricity- otherwise it would only be able to say outlet #3 in the living room is using 75 watts (or whatever). Could be a lamp or a radio or a hair drier or laptop or battery charger or whatever.

donnay
03-10-2012, 04:58 PM
Smart meters (http://stopsmartmeters.org/)

LibForestPaul
03-10-2012, 05:13 PM
the part about a smart grid behttp://www.facebook.com/ThomasMassieforCongressing able to tell if you have a incandescent bulb vs another device consuming 100w,
the part about getting a visit because of it.

i agree with what is being said in principle [govt shouldnt be outlawing bulbs], but to say that someone can tell that you are using a specific bulb via your homes [bulk] energy meter, and the subsequent visits from a officer, is imo a huge stretch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NmdUcmLFkw

The BBC has a van the goes around detecting unlicensed viewing of tv (Yes, insane)

The light signature of an LED bulb vs incandescent, w/o investigating, is likely huge, considering how much I see adverts trying to convince consumers that LED light is "soft". So having a government van trolling around town doing analysis of light leakage from your home is not only well within the realm of possibility, but sounds like a wonderful tool for intrusion and revenue enhancement.

onlyrp
03-10-2012, 05:23 PM
Does the Federal Government have the Constitutional authority to Ban Light Bulbs?

No, only drugs, abortion, piracy, immigration, counterfeiting, gay marriage, ar-15 dias.

ClydeCoulter
03-10-2012, 09:19 PM
They have no authority other than what the limits of the constitution gives them. And, if they break that contract, then they loose all authority since their authority comes from the constitution in the first place. Any other action is only force without constitutional contractual validity.

The_Ruffneck
03-10-2012, 09:29 PM
This is obviously a ploy by big poultry producers like Tyson foods to put small time farmers who use incandescant lights for their chick incubators out of business.
*shakes fist*

Carson
03-10-2012, 09:43 PM
So basically we already had meters. Now they are replacing working meters with Smart Meters. Were they smart enough to manufacture themselves and install themselves without any effort or expense in energy?

Those new bulbs don't look so great either. I'll admit though it is hard to tell in these light conditions.

http://photos.imageevent.com/stokeybob/morestuff/anarchy.jpg

FindLiberty
03-10-2012, 10:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NmdUcmLFkw

....The light signature of an LED bulb vs incandescent, w/o investigating, is likely huge....

Yea, like NIGHT and DAY!

Modify an old unused digital camera by removing the internal IR filter (it's right over the sensor chip). For best results, replace it with a thin clear glass or modify/adjust focus as this will change the distant focus point. Even without correcting this focus problem, blurry pictures will still detect IR if the lens zoom is set at widest angle.
Place a dark IR filter (750nm to 950nm range) over the lens or use an un-exposed developed "35mm slide film" transparency as a visible light blocking / IR light pass filter.

Take a look in various rooms (or at your house through the windows from outside across the street) at night and notice the CFL/LED lighting is "dark" and the old inc lamps are "light" as viewed through the camera's viewfinder. It's 100% obvious - all or nothing!

The few remaining incandescent light bulbs in a whole town will easily stand out! (Oven light, refridgerator light?)
The large military grade high gain IR sensors can see this right through the walls too.

It's a tyrant’s wet dream come true!

Offer a reward for snitching and the unemployment problem is reduced from this new activity. The additional revenue from fines can also go to help the children who get sick from their malfunctioning EZ-Bake ovens!

FindLiberty
03-10-2012, 10:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO5lGpFGcJY&feature=player_embedded

TheNewYorker
03-10-2012, 10:17 PM
I'm hoarding light bulbs now. My house has about 40 lighting fixtures that are on a dimmer switch (home builder loves his dimmable can-lighting). Dimmable CFL/LEDs cost about $40 per bulb, I'm not paying $1,600 to replace my light bulbs on my home when these incandescents eventually burn out in a few years. Not only the fact that dimmable CFL/LED bulbs suck, they don't really dim at all, they get slightly darker, then just turn off all together. They don't have the full range of power that incandescents can dim too.

This isn't about energy saving. It's about screwing the American consumer out of more money. You know what? When I have all the lights in my house dimmed, they consume less energy than CFLs or LEDs. Granted they aren't bright, but some times mood lighting is nice. CFL/LED = NO MORE MOOD LIGHTING. You have one option: Full bright.

FindLiberty
03-10-2012, 11:13 PM
eventually burn out in a few years. ...CFL/LED bulbs suck, they don't really dim

...When I have all the lights in my house dimmed, they consume less energy...

I'm 98% with you. Your dimmed incandescent lamps will last MUCH longer than undimmed lamps, and longer than new CFLs too. However, your dimmed equiv of 7 watts light is very dim indeed as compared to a 7W CFL draw, so your energy consumption is probably going to be more if you're running 'em above 7W level.

I gave in years ago and pulled out all my X-10 and dimmer wall switches. :-(
It's all or nuthin' now with the on'off switches.

Yea, those dimmable CFLs are an expensive joke - they don't last long or work out too well. The color of newest CFLs is better, but even now they still don't look quite as nice. miss my nice dimmers and look of that old lighting - I hope you can hang on to your old lighting!

IT SHOULD BE OUR CHOICE and it should not be forced. Why would ANYTHING have to be forced by gubermint if it's such a "good" idea in the first place? (HDTV also comes to mind.)

I also feel safer with the old 60W or 75W bulb in the garage, closet or attic ceiling. I've seen CFLs (and crap-o-quality 4' shop lights) die with a shower of sparks spitting out of the electronic ballast base (or open frame econo-ballast) - not a good thing over paper or flammable clothing IMO.

onlyrp
03-11-2012, 12:11 AM
how about using less bulbs?


I'm hoarding light bulbs now. My house has about 40 lighting fixtures that are on a dimmer switch (home builder loves his dimmable can-lighting). Dimmable CFL/LEDs cost about $40 per bulb, I'm not paying $1,600 to replace my light bulbs on my home when these incandescents eventually burn out in a few years. Not only the fact that dimmable CFL/LED bulbs suck, they don't really dim at all, they get slightly darker, then just turn off all together. They don't have the full range of power that incandescents can dim too.

This isn't about energy saving. It's about screwing the American consumer out of more money. You know what? When I have all the lights in my house dimmed, they consume less energy than CFLs or LEDs. Granted they aren't bright, but some times mood lighting is nice. CFL/LED = NO MORE MOOD LIGHTING. You have one option: Full bright.

TheNewYorker
03-11-2012, 01:52 AM
how about using less bulbs?

How about no? I love the light in my rooms, it's beautiful and visitors always remark about it. And with the style of the fixtures, if I used less bulbs my house would be very dark and impossible to see anything.

How about the government stop enacting laws that cost me more money, instead? It's bad enough we have our president saying that his goal is for gas prices to keep rising to force everyone to buy hybrid cars. Great, except for I don't have $30,000 to spend on a brand new hybrid car.

TheNewYorker
03-11-2012, 02:00 AM
I gave in years ago and pulled out all my X-10 and dimmer wall switches. :-(
It's all or nuthin' now with the on'off switches.

Yea, those dimmable CFLs are an expensive joke - they don't last long or work out too well. The color of newest CFLs is better, but even now they still don't look quite as nice. miss my nice dimmers and look of that old lighting - I hope you can hang on to your old lighting!


I'm not going to give in. Love my dim lighting too much. It's nice to hop into the tub with my wife and dim the lighting down, and light some candles. It's nice to sit at my computer and work with dim lighting enough to see my keyboard or write stuff on paper, but not have a migraine headache from the lights being at full power. It's nice to light the fireplace and use that as my main source of light in the room, but have the overhead lights on and dimmed a little bit to provide a little bit of fill light around the room. It's also nice to sit out on the deck with my dimmable lights and eat dinner with music with the wife.

Right now I have about 100 boxes of light bulbs in my shed. I order the incandescent bulbs online for $1.40 for a four pack. I might even be able to make a business out of it. Soon, when only CFL and LED are sold in stores, incandescent are going to be in high demand for anyone that owns dimmer switches in their house.

asurfaholic
03-11-2012, 04:49 AM
how about using less bulbs?

How about people stop trying to regulate what other people do inside their homes?

123tim
03-11-2012, 05:01 AM
In this case, yes. You used to be able to use uninsulated wires in your house (knob and tube), after enough fires insulated wires became mandatory, and I'm sure there was resistance at the time with the same arguments.
You used to be able to use lead paint and plumbing, perhaps you want to go back to those days too?

Occasionally the government does something correct, and this is one of those times.
eb

Is this statement actually true? ^^^

I know that knob and tube wire is actually insulated....I've seen enough of it out to know that. This got me to thinking about how safe it might be, because it actually seemed fairly safe in every instance that I've encountered for several reasons:

1.) The wire is insulated with some sort of black, treated, cloth covering.
2.) The hot and neutral are separated by good distance of space.
3.) The ceramic tubes protect the wire through the stud and the wires are well secured with the knobs.

I started wondering when the transition started taking place and found a wikipedia article that says this:

Knob and tube wiring was eventually displaced from interior wiring systems because of the high cost of installation compared with use of power cables, which combined both power conductors of a circuit in one run (and which later included grounding conductors).

I also discovered that knob and tube is still used in some applications:

At present, new knob and tube installations are permitted in the US only in a few very specific situations listed in the National Electrical Code, such as certain industrial and agricultural environments.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that knob and tube was displaced by something better. I don't think that it as made illegal by the government (at least, at first) because another, better, product came along.


Edit:
I just found this comment on the web that seems to support what I said above, and also seems to suggest that what came after Knob and Tube wiring actually was worse:

How safe is knob and tube wiring?
Safety is difficult to evaluate with K&T. My house was built in 1891 with gas lighting and was wired in 1903 with K&T with no problems for 80 years. When I started to rewire I found that BX cable installed in the 50's was far more dangerous than the K&T. The insulated wire in the BX cable had crumbled in the metal boxes and bare wires were a serious hazard. The ground, of course, was only through the metal cable sheathing and was not reliable. Fortunately, it had not been stapled anywhere so I was able to pull new wires through as I removed the BX. I had to replace all of the BX before starting on the K&T. The K&T was in perfect condition. All wires were oversized copper (aprox. #10) and the insulation was thick and difficult to remove with a knife. I could find no deterioration anywhere. Since the wires were held apart and insulated with ceramic tubes at joist penetrations and thick flexible tubes elsewhere, it appeared to be very safe. The only feature missing was the equipment ground and of course the panel was a nightmare.

I would replace all K&T wiring but I would rate it as safer than a lot of the wiring installed in the 50's & 60's.

onlyrp
03-11-2012, 05:01 PM
How about no? I love the light in my rooms, it's beautiful and visitors always remark about it. And with the style of the fixtures, if I used less bulbs my house would be very dark and impossible to see anything.

How about the government stop enacting laws that cost me more money, instead? It's bad enough we have our president saying that his goal is for gas prices to keep rising to force everyone to buy hybrid cars. Great, except for I don't have $30,000 to spend on a brand new hybrid car.

you have a choice to use less bulbs, you chose not to. There is no "right to be free from darkness", and nobody is forcing you to own a car either.

unknown
03-11-2012, 05:10 PM
Ive begun to stock pile incandescent bulbs. We should just learn how to make a bulb. Doesnt seem especially difficult.

Jonathanm
03-11-2012, 05:11 PM
Just want to say, to everyone who doubts Anti-Federalist on the technology argument: Do remember that technology has a way of surprising us. Thirty years ago, how many people would believe we'd all be connected via the internet, the way we are now? How many people thought that you'd be able to type a question into Google, and have a result in less than five seconds? Ten years ago, how many people honestly thought we'd have GPS in most of our phones, capable of tracking us in real-time?

In regards to marijuana grow operations, people have said that they only find the large grow operations with electricity monitoring, but that isn't true at all. There have been cases where people have been raided over as little as 1000 watts, and I'd bet even less. Why? Because it's not just the AMOUNT of electricity they acknowledge, it's the CYCLE of that electricity, too.

Cannabis, like many plants, has to be grown on a light cycle. In order for cannabis to be induced into flowering, and to remain in a flowering state, the cycle of light must be kept at roughly 12 hours a day, and typically for 52-100 days straight. This means that in order to assess whether one might be using grow lights or not, all they do is look at the cycle of electricity usage. By using smart meters, they can see that a significantly larger portion of electricity is used for exactly twelve hours, at the same time every day. At eight in the morning, this person starts using 1000 extra watts of electricity. Then, exactly twelve hours later, the electricity usage significantly drops. Could this be some other appliance? Possibly, but they don't care, and that's why we should all be fighting to end this sort of thing.

Anti Federalist
03-16-2012, 01:33 PM
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/images/news/201203/n_15971_4.jpg

CIA director David Petraeus has said that the rise of new “smart” gadgets means that Americans are effectively bugging their own homes, saving US spy agencies a job when it identifies any “persons of interest”.

Speaking at a summit for In-Q-Tel, the CIA’s technology investment operation, Petraeus made the comments when discussing new technologies which aim to add processors and web connections to previously ‘dumb’ home appliances such as fridges, ovens and lighting systems.

http://www.infowars.com/cia-head-we-will-spy-on-americans-through-electrical-appliances

But I'm not doing anything wrong...

Fools.

That is a ridiculously cavalier and dangerous attitude to have these days in Amerika, where all is legal and everything is illegal.

LibForestPaul
03-17-2012, 08:21 AM
you have a choice to use less bulbs, you chose not to. There is no "right to be free from darkness"

You have the balls to personally stop him or myself with violence from choosing numerous incandescent bulbs? I doubt it.

loveshiscountry
03-17-2012, 02:14 PM
Just want to say, to everyone who doubts Anti-Federalist on the technology argument: Do remember that technology has a way of surprising us. Thirty years ago, how many people would believe we'd all be connected via the internet, the way we are now? How many people thought that you'd be able to type a question into Google, and have a result in less than five seconds? Ten years ago, how many people honestly thought we'd have GPS in most of our phones, capable of tracking us in real-time?

In regards to marijuana grow operations, people have said that they only find the large grow operations with electricity monitoring, but that isn't true at all. There have been cases where people have been raided over as little as 1000 watts, and I'd bet even less. Why? Because it's not just the AMOUNT of electricity they acknowledge, it's the CYCLE of that electricity, too.

Cannabis, like many plants, has to be grown on a light cycle. In order for cannabis to be induced into flowering, and to remain in a flowering state, the cycle of light must be kept at roughly 12 hours a day, and typically for 52-100 days straight. This means that in order to assess whether one might be using grow lights or not, all they do is look at the cycle of electricity usage. By using smart meters, they can see that a significantly larger portion of electricity is used for exactly twelve hours, at the same time every day. At eight in the morning, this person starts using 1000 extra watts of electricity. Then, exactly twelve hours later, the electricity usage significantly drops. Could this be some other appliance? Possibly, but they don't care, and that's why we should all be fighting to end this sort of thing.Two flower grow rooms with 1 light each. One room the lights are off while in the other, the lights are on.

airborne373
03-17-2012, 02:19 PM
Next it will be announced the govt. is going to build the Russian Volga Automobile in the U.S.

Anti Federalist
03-22-2012, 01:02 PM
////

Anti Federalist
12-12-2012, 02:16 PM
Here's that kooky, fringe, conspiracy outfit National Geographic:

the information collected by smart meters could reveal how many people live in a home, their daily routines, changes in those routines, what types of electronic equipment are in the home, and other details.




Privacy Concerns Persist as Smart Meters Roll Out

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2012/12/121212-smart-meter-privacy/

Christina Nunez

For National Geographic News

Published December 12, 2012

Energy consultant Craig Miller, who spends much of his time working to make the smart grid a reality, got a jolt when he mentioned his work to a new acquaintance. The man, who happened to be a lineman at a Pennsylvania utility, responded earnestly: "Smart meters are a plot by Obama to spy on us."


The encounter was a disheartening sign of the challenge ahead for proponents of the smart grid, who say that the technology can help the industry meet power demand, fix problems faster, and help consumers lower their electricity bills. Advocates of such a 21st-century grid are learning that they need to take privacy concerns seriously. Though smart meters are not, in fact, a domestic espionage scheme, they do raise questions: In a world where households start talking with the power grid, what exactly will be revealed? And who will be listening? (See related quiz: "What You Don't Know About Electricity.")

The term "smart grid" encompasses an array of technologies that can be implemented at various points along the line of transmission from power plant to electricity user, but for many consumers, it is symbolized by one thing: the smart meter. A majority of U.S. states have begun deploying the wireless meters, which can send electricity usage information from a household back to the utility remotely at frequent intervals. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, more than 36 million smart meters were installed across the nation as of August 2012, covering about a quarter of all electrical customers. In the European Union, only 10 percent of households have smart meters but they are being deployed rapidly to meet an EU mandate that the technology reach 80 percent of households by 2020.

Because smart meters can provide real-time readings of household energy use instead of the familiar monthly figures most customers now see in their electric bills, the devices offer a new opportunity for consumers to learn more about their own power use and save money. But the ability to track a household's energy use multiple times a day also presents some unsettling possibilities. In theory, the information collected by smart meters could reveal how many people live in a home, their daily routines, changes in those routines, what types of electronic equipment are in the home, and other details. "It's not hard to imagine a divorce lawyer subpoenaing this information, an insurance company interpreting the data in a way that allows it to penalize customers, or criminals intercepting the information to plan a burglary," the private nonprofit Electronic Frontier Foundation noted in a blog post about smart meters. (Related: "Pictures: The Energy Drain of Recreational Drugs")

The European Union's data protection watchdog warned earlier this year that smart meters, while bringing significant potential benefits, also could be used track whether families "are away on holiday or at work, if someone uses a specific medical device or a baby-monitor, how they like to spend their free time and so on." The European Data Protection Supervisor urged that member states provide the public with more information on how the data is being handled. (Related: "The 21st Century Grid")

A State-by-State Effort

As with many of the rules governing utility operations, regulations to address privacy concerns in the United States are currently embedded in a patchwork of state laws and public utility commission policy. Most experts point to California as a leader: Last year, the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) adopted rules governing access to, and usage of, customer data. The state has also passed legislation that requires utilities to obtain the customer's consent for release of their information to any third party. The CPUC was involved in producing a comprehensive report on privacy with the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) that summarizes, often in chilling detail, the many ways in which privacy breaches could occur on the smart grid, and recommends best practices for preventing those breaches. "As Smart Grid implementations collect more granular, detailed, and potentially personal information, this information may reveal business activities, manufacturing procedures, and personal activities in a given location," the NIST report said.

George Arnold, national coordinator for smart grid interoperability at NIST, points out that many of these privacy and security issues have been dealt with in the health care and telecommunications sectors, for example. "Protecting the privacy of the information [on the smart grid] has been taken very seriously. . . . I think it's a good news story that policymakers recognize the importance, and both policy and technical tools are well in hand to deal with this," Arnold said. (See related photos: "World's Worst Power Outages.")

But no existing federal or state laws can be counted on to protect consumers' utility data as smart meters are rolled out across the country. At least one utility in California argued early on that it was subject to a number of existing laws that would address privacy concerns, according to Jim Dempsey of the Center for Democracy and Technology, which worked with the CPUC on its privacy framework. However, Dempsey's group found that no single law provided a clear answer regarding utility data, and that a new set of rules was necessary. "Almost every state has some kind of [privacy] law already," Dempsey said. "But the point is, those laws predate the smart grid, and they do not really account for the complexity of the smart-grid ecosystem."

With other states—including Colorado, Maine, and Texas—now formulating policy on smart meters, a consensus is emerging. Jules Polonetsky of the Future of Privacy Forum, which advocates for responsible handling of consumer data, says there is general agreement that utilities should have rules that govern how they can use smart meter data, and that a customer should be able to know and have access to the data being collected. Still, Polonetsky points out that as energy-saving applications and devices (such as the Nest wireless thermostat) proliferate, state privacy frameworks may have limited power. Utility access to data is restricted, but "some device that I buy and I activate may not be subject to utility regulations," Polonetsky said. His organization has introduced a privacy seal for companies that handle smart-grid data, with the goal of highlighting companies that are being proactive about privacy.

Resistance to smart meters in some areas, though confined to a small fraction of utility customers, has been vociferous enough that a handful of communities have declared moratoriums on installations. The city of Ojai, California, for example, declared such a moratorium in May, though it is effectively unenforceable. In Texas, one woman pulled a gun on a utility employee who was trying to install a smart meter. Beyond privacy issues, many smart-meter opponents cite fear of exposure to radio frequency waves, even though radio frequency exposure from smart meters falls "substantially below the protective limits set by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) for the general public," according to a study from the Electric Power Research Institute, the nonprofit research organization funded by the electric power industry. (Related: "Putting a (Smiley) Face on Energy Savings")

Some states, including California and Maine, which has the highest penetration rate in the country for advanced meters, have allowed residents to opt out of smart-meter installation. So far, few customers have done so: In California, according to Chris Villarreal of the CPUC, the opt-out rate was less than half of one percent. The Texas Public Utility Commission is currently weighing whether or not to allow customers to opt out.

Miller, the energy consultant, has been working on a $68 million effort partially funded by the U.S. Department of Energy to implement smart-grid technology with rural electric cooperatives. He said many of the concerns about smart meter privacy run counter to how utilities actually operate. "The utilities go through all kinds of effort to reduce the amount of information they get," he said. "They see no advantage [in] collecting data with no operational value. If the data did not allow you [as a utility] to make a better decision about the operation of your grid, then there's no reason for a utility to collect it, and they won't."

High Ambitions, Low Public Awareness


Protecting homeowner data from interested outsiders will be crucial for the electric industry as it seeks customer buy-in on the smart grid, but the real challenge may lie in boosting the interest of homeowners themselves. "Our research shows that consumers generally overwhelmingly are unaware of the smart grid [and smart meters] and don't even know what those terms mean," said Patty Durand, executive director of the Smart Grid Consumer Collaborative (SGCC), a nonprofit dedicated to consumer education about the smart grid.


In most cases, the utility notifies the customer that the smart meter is coming, swaps in the new meter, and recovers the cost of deployment through a slight rate adjustment, so a homeowner may have little involvement in the installation process. That decreases the likelihood that a homeowner will understand what the smart meter does or how it is beneficial. (Related: "Smart Meters Take Bite Out of Electricity Theft")

"For the longest time, the relationship between the utility and the customer has been, 'Here's the power and you can pay for it'," said Villarreal of the CPUC. "Now with smart grid and smart meters, we're asking the customers to get more involved and providing them with a lot more information, and now they're starting to ask questions."

Villarreal said that not all utilities have been quick to embrace a world that demands more of a dialogue with customers. In response to the notion of posting a privacy policy, one utility representative from another part of the country told him, " 'We don't want to do that, because we don't want customers calling us and asking us questions about it.' That's not a very proactive response to working with your customers. You're probably just raising the ire of customers more than solving the problem," he said.

California's public utilities have learned to employ robust communication strategies for smart-meter rollouts. San Diego Gas and Electric (SDG&E) sent out at least five notifications to customers leading up to installations. "I think that really helped, because it wasn't like it was somebody knocking on the door," said Caroline Winn, SDG&E's vice president of customer services and chief customer privacy officer. "People weren't surprised to get the smart meter when we installed them."

While a combination of proactive communication and opt-out policies can help prevent customer confusion and minimize backlash against smart-meter rollouts, utilities have the long-term task of making sure that they add value for both customers and themselves. Some benefits involve little or no customer engagement: Smart meters can tell utilities, for example, when outages occur and help generate outage maps for customers (in the analog days, the utility didn't know about an outage unless a customer called).

Other aspects of smart meters involve more attention from a household. Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E), which has installed 9.1 million smart meters across northern and central California at a total cost of $2.2 billion, has experimented with a variety of methods for getting customers more interested in their data. "We deploy reporting with your bill that shows you your usage compared to your neighbor's, and that's highly motivating for some people," said PG&E Chief Information Officer Karen Austin.

PG&E's other programs include rate incentives for energy conservation during peak times, text messages that alert customers when their electricity usage crosses into a new pricing tier, and participation in the Green Button Initiative, which allows people to download their energy-usage information in a standardized format. The goal is to create a level of engagement with energy-usage data among consumers that has barely existed before. Ultimately, the hope is that when consumers see how much energy they use, they can try to use less.

"The utilities have been challenged with not properly educating consumers and not understanding who their consumers are, because they've never had to," said Durand of the SGCC. "In the past, it's been a one-way relationship . . . but those days are over." (Related: "Can Hurricane Sandy Shed Light on Curbing Power Outages?")

Anti Federalist
12-12-2012, 02:16 PM
Here's that kooky, fringe, conspiracy outfit National Geographic:

the information collected by smart meters could reveal how many people live in a home, their daily routines, changes in those routines, what types of electronic equipment are in the home, and other details.




Privacy Concerns Persist as Smart Meters Roll Out

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2012/12/121212-smart-meter-privacy/

Christina Nunez

For National Geographic News

Published December 12, 2012

Energy consultant Craig Miller, who spends much of his time working to make the smart grid a reality, got a jolt when he mentioned his work to a new acquaintance. The man, who happened to be a lineman at a Pennsylvania utility, responded earnestly: "Smart meters are a plot by Obama to spy on us."


The encounter was a disheartening sign of the challenge ahead for proponents of the smart grid, who say that the technology can help the industry meet power demand, fix problems faster, and help consumers lower their electricity bills. Advocates of such a 21st-century grid are learning that they need to take privacy concerns seriously. Though smart meters are not, in fact, a domestic espionage scheme, they do raise questions: In a world where households start talking with the power grid, what exactly will be revealed? And who will be listening? (See related quiz: "What You Don't Know About Electricity.")

The term "smart grid" encompasses an array of technologies that can be implemented at various points along the line of transmission from power plant to electricity user, but for many consumers, it is symbolized by one thing: the smart meter. A majority of U.S. states have begun deploying the wireless meters, which can send electricity usage information from a household back to the utility remotely at frequent intervals. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, more than 36 million smart meters were installed across the nation as of August 2012, covering about a quarter of all electrical customers. In the European Union, only 10 percent of households have smart meters but they are being deployed rapidly to meet an EU mandate that the technology reach 80 percent of households by 2020.

Because smart meters can provide real-time readings of household energy use instead of the familiar monthly figures most customers now see in their electric bills, the devices offer a new opportunity for consumers to learn more about their own power use and save money. But the ability to track a household's energy use multiple times a day also presents some unsettling possibilities. In theory, the information collected by smart meters could reveal how many people live in a home, their daily routines, changes in those routines, what types of electronic equipment are in the home, and other details. "It's not hard to imagine a divorce lawyer subpoenaing this information, an insurance company interpreting the data in a way that allows it to penalize customers, or criminals intercepting the information to plan a burglary," the private nonprofit Electronic Frontier Foundation noted in a blog post about smart meters. (Related: "Pictures: The Energy Drain of Recreational Drugs")

The European Union's data protection watchdog warned earlier this year that smart meters, while bringing significant potential benefits, also could be used track whether families "are away on holiday or at work, if someone uses a specific medical device or a baby-monitor, how they like to spend their free time and so on." The European Data Protection Supervisor urged that member states provide the public with more information on how the data is being handled. (Related: "The 21st Century Grid")

A State-by-State Effort

As with many of the rules governing utility operations, regulations to address privacy concerns in the United States are currently embedded in a patchwork of state laws and public utility commission policy. Most experts point to California as a leader: Last year, the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) adopted rules governing access to, and usage of, customer data. The state has also passed legislation that requires utilities to obtain the customer's consent for release of their information to any third party. The CPUC was involved in producing a comprehensive report on privacy with the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) that summarizes, often in chilling detail, the many ways in which privacy breaches could occur on the smart grid, and recommends best practices for preventing those breaches. "As Smart Grid implementations collect more granular, detailed, and potentially personal information, this information may reveal business activities, manufacturing procedures, and personal activities in a given location," the NIST report said.

George Arnold, national coordinator for smart grid interoperability at NIST, points out that many of these privacy and security issues have been dealt with in the health care and telecommunications sectors, for example. "Protecting the privacy of the information [on the smart grid] has been taken very seriously. . . . I think it's a good news story that policymakers recognize the importance, and both policy and technical tools are well in hand to deal with this," Arnold said. (See related photos: "World's Worst Power Outages.")

But no existing federal or state laws can be counted on to protect consumers' utility data as smart meters are rolled out across the country. At least one utility in California argued early on that it was subject to a number of existing laws that would address privacy concerns, according to Jim Dempsey of the Center for Democracy and Technology, which worked with the CPUC on its privacy framework. However, Dempsey's group found that no single law provided a clear answer regarding utility data, and that a new set of rules was necessary. "Almost every state has some kind of [privacy] law already," Dempsey said. "But the point is, those laws predate the smart grid, and they do not really account for the complexity of the smart-grid ecosystem."

With other states—including Colorado, Maine, and Texas—now formulating policy on smart meters, a consensus is emerging. Jules Polonetsky of the Future of Privacy Forum, which advocates for responsible handling of consumer data, says there is general agreement that utilities should have rules that govern how they can use smart meter data, and that a customer should be able to know and have access to the data being collected. Still, Polonetsky points out that as energy-saving applications and devices (such as the Nest wireless thermostat) proliferate, state privacy frameworks may have limited power. Utility access to data is restricted, but "some device that I buy and I activate may not be subject to utility regulations," Polonetsky said. His organization has introduced a privacy seal for companies that handle smart-grid data, with the goal of highlighting companies that are being proactive about privacy.

Resistance to smart meters in some areas, though confined to a small fraction of utility customers, has been vociferous enough that a handful of communities have declared moratoriums on installations. The city of Ojai, California, for example, declared such a moratorium in May, though it is effectively unenforceable. In Texas, one woman pulled a gun on a utility employee who was trying to install a smart meter. Beyond privacy issues, many smart-meter opponents cite fear of exposure to radio frequency waves, even though radio frequency exposure from smart meters falls "substantially below the protective limits set by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) for the general public," according to a study from the Electric Power Research Institute, the nonprofit research organization funded by the electric power industry. (Related: "Putting a (Smiley) Face on Energy Savings")

Some states, including California and Maine, which has the highest penetration rate in the country for advanced meters, have allowed residents to opt out of smart-meter installation. So far, few customers have done so: In California, according to Chris Villarreal of the CPUC, the opt-out rate was less than half of one percent. The Texas Public Utility Commission is currently weighing whether or not to allow customers to opt out.

Miller, the energy consultant, has been working on a $68 million effort partially funded by the U.S. Department of Energy to implement smart-grid technology with rural electric cooperatives. He said many of the concerns about smart meter privacy run counter to how utilities actually operate. "The utilities go through all kinds of effort to reduce the amount of information they get," he said. "They see no advantage [in] collecting data with no operational value. If the data did not allow you [as a utility] to make a better decision about the operation of your grid, then there's no reason for a utility to collect it, and they won't."

High Ambitions, Low Public Awareness


Protecting homeowner data from interested outsiders will be crucial for the electric industry as it seeks customer buy-in on the smart grid, but the real challenge may lie in boosting the interest of homeowners themselves. "Our research shows that consumers generally overwhelmingly are unaware of the smart grid [and smart meters] and don't even know what those terms mean," said Patty Durand, executive director of the Smart Grid Consumer Collaborative (SGCC), a nonprofit dedicated to consumer education about the smart grid.


In most cases, the utility notifies the customer that the smart meter is coming, swaps in the new meter, and recovers the cost of deployment through a slight rate adjustment, so a homeowner may have little involvement in the installation process. That decreases the likelihood that a homeowner will understand what the smart meter does or how it is beneficial. (Related: "Smart Meters Take Bite Out of Electricity Theft")

"For the longest time, the relationship between the utility and the customer has been, 'Here's the power and you can pay for it'," said Villarreal of the CPUC. "Now with smart grid and smart meters, we're asking the customers to get more involved and providing them with a lot more information, and now they're starting to ask questions."

Villarreal said that not all utilities have been quick to embrace a world that demands more of a dialogue with customers. In response to the notion of posting a privacy policy, one utility representative from another part of the country told him, " 'We don't want to do that, because we don't want customers calling us and asking us questions about it.' That's not a very proactive response to working with your customers. You're probably just raising the ire of customers more than solving the problem," he said.

California's public utilities have learned to employ robust communication strategies for smart-meter rollouts. San Diego Gas and Electric (SDG&E) sent out at least five notifications to customers leading up to installations. "I think that really helped, because it wasn't like it was somebody knocking on the door," said Caroline Winn, SDG&E's vice president of customer services and chief customer privacy officer. "People weren't surprised to get the smart meter when we installed them."

While a combination of proactive communication and opt-out policies can help prevent customer confusion and minimize backlash against smart-meter rollouts, utilities have the long-term task of making sure that they add value for both customers and themselves. Some benefits involve little or no customer engagement: Smart meters can tell utilities, for example, when outages occur and help generate outage maps for customers (in the analog days, the utility didn't know about an outage unless a customer called).

Other aspects of smart meters involve more attention from a household. Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E), which has installed 9.1 million smart meters across northern and central California at a total cost of $2.2 billion, has experimented with a variety of methods for getting customers more interested in their data. "We deploy reporting with your bill that shows you your usage compared to your neighbor's, and that's highly motivating for some people," said PG&E Chief Information Officer Karen Austin.

PG&E's other programs include rate incentives for energy conservation during peak times, text messages that alert customers when their electricity usage crosses into a new pricing tier, and participation in the Green Button Initiative, which allows people to download their energy-usage information in a standardized format. The goal is to create a level of engagement with energy-usage data among consumers that has barely existed before. Ultimately, the hope is that when consumers see how much energy they use, they can try to use less.

"The utilities have been challenged with not properly educating consumers and not understanding who their consumers are, because they've never had to," said Durand of the SGCC. "In the past, it's been a one-way relationship . . . but those days are over." (Related: "Can Hurricane Sandy Shed Light on Curbing Power Outages?")

dannno
12-12-2012, 02:29 PM
Trouble is, your new "smart meter" that electric utilities all across the country are installing, can detect the load of an incadescent bulb on your house grid.

Thus earning you a visit from Officer Friendly and his buddies:

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/swat.gif

My electric bill went up significantly and inexplicably after they installed a smart meter on my house. I'm pissed and have no idea what to do, I really wish there was some market competition.

Anti Federalist
12-12-2012, 02:40 PM
My electric bill went up significantly and inexplicably after they installed a smart meter on my house. I'm pissed and have no idea what to do, I really wish there was some market competition.

Gee, what a "shock"...

Not much you can do. You and me and everybody else is at the mercy of an unholy alliance of government and pseudo "private" enterprise.

One wants this technology for control and surveillance.

The other wants it because it boosts profits.

And so, we are fucked.

If you own a home with space, you can invest the $50,000 or so and get a solar grid/battery/inverter setup, that's about the only way out that I see.

dannno
12-12-2012, 02:47 PM
Gee, what a "shock"...

Not much you can do. You and me and everybody else is at the mercy of an unholy alliance of government and pseudo "private" enterprise.

One wants this technology for control and surveillance.

The other wants it because it boosts profits.

And so, we are fucked.

If you own a home with space, you can invest the $50,000 or so and get a solar grid/battery/inverter setup, that's about the only way out that I see.

As much as I like the idea of energy independence and would probably jump at the first chance, I think if the power company provided people with reliable, affordable service for a long period of time then most people might very well continue with them out of appreciation and convenience.

Pretty sure 99% of people, however, would jump at the first opportunity to tell their power company to go fuck themselves.

Tod
12-12-2012, 03:07 PM
One year several years ago I got a visit from the natural gas company who was "concerned" because my gas usage was so low (it was late November and I hadn't turned my furnace on yet; I keep my house cool in the winter to save money). They wanted to come in the house and inspect. I told them nothing was wrong, the meter is outside 30 yards from the house and it was none of their business what was going on in my house.

I'd love to go off-grid, but my main reluctance there is with batteries. It would be nice if there were a jump in battery technology, even if it were just an improvement in lead acid battery life.

LibertyEagle
12-12-2012, 03:16 PM
My electric bill went up significantly and inexplicably after they installed a smart meter on my house. I'm pissed and have no idea what to do, I really wish there was some market competition.

Yeah, mine did too. I griped, but they said that the old meters weren't accurate. Yeah, right.

BAllen
12-12-2012, 04:21 PM
Trouble is, your new "smart meter" that electric utilities all across the country are installing, can detect the load of an incadescent bulb on your house grid.

Thus earning you a visit from Officer Friendly and his buddies:

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/swat.gif

Quick! Hide under the bed!

Zippyjuan
12-12-2012, 04:53 PM
Yeah, mine did too. I griped, but they said that the old meters weren't accurate. Yeah, right.

I had a one- month blip but then the next one was lower- probably had a different number of billing days when the meters were changed over. Otherwise I am still paying what I was before. (but my bill is so low it is hard to tell).

Tpoints
12-12-2012, 04:55 PM
My electric bill went up significantly and inexplicably after they installed a smart meter on my house. I'm pissed and have no idea what to do, I really wish there was some market competition.

get solar panels? your own generator? move to a cheaper area? stop using electricity?

The Free Hornet
12-12-2012, 06:11 PM
I had a one- month blip but then the next one was lower- probably had a different number of billing days when the meters were changed over. Otherwise I am still paying what I was before. (but my bill is so low it is hard to tell).



Here’s a video about students from Stanford University using the TED 5000 because they suspected their PG&E Smart meter was over-billing them. As it turned out, the students were right. Apparently, over 50% of PG&E smart meters were setup incorrectly at the time.

http://www.optimumenergy.com/how-to-test-your-smart-meter-for-accuracy/


You might be able to doublecheck usage with amp meters - maybe you need two (one for each phase) and possibly some brass ones if you've never done this before:


http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/18461_lg.jpg (http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200460552_200460552?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Electrical-_-Electrical%20Tools-_-18461&ci_sku=18461&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw={keyword}&gclid=CL_5gLeKlrQCFQf0nAodJwoAUg)


Also, this thing is handy-dandy to have around the house (Kill a Watt (http://www.jr.com/p3-international/pe/P3_P4400/)):


http://bmimages.jr.com/productimages/P3P4400.PNG?CELL=325%2C325&QLT=85&CVT=jpeg (http://www.jr.com/p3-international/pe/P3_P4400/)

Anti Federalist
03-22-2014, 12:10 PM
Thanks for your input, it's appreciated.

What is happening here, in case you were curious, is a long simmering argument that revolved around a statement that I made in a "mandated CFL lighting" thread, where I said that using prohibited lighting will get you a visit from the cops in the future, as they will be able to monitor precise electrical usage amount and what is using it.

In other words a prohibited incandescent bulb being used could be picked up by the smart grid, reported back to the utility, who then report it to the cops, thus earning your visit from Officer Friendly and his pals.

I was told, in no uncertain terms, that I was nuts, that no such system was possible, even after posting links to commercially available units that are on the market right now, that can monitor exact usage on each part of house grid and what type of appliance is using that power.


Every jamoke that comes down the pike, looking to fold, spindle and mutilate my life into some database and put me under surveillance, from doctors to banksters to employers to the everfucking government tells me the same thing, "It's private, there are protections in place, relax, you're being paranoid".

And lo and behold months or years later, we find out that is not the case, we've been under intense surveillance all along, and it's too late to do anything about it.

http://images.plus613.net/images/e/c/7/7/www_plus613_net_ZZ310.jpg

CRS Report for Congress
Prepared for Members and Committees of Congress
Smart Meter Data: Privacy and Cybersecurity

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42338.pdf

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i2GVWy6dnbE/UMpXAAA85kI/AAAAAAAAD78/h-MhbE-eQgE/s1600/stephen-colbert-told-you-so.gif

Thor
03-22-2014, 12:35 PM
the part about a smart grid being able to tell if you have a incandescent bulb vs another device consuming 100w,
the part about getting a visit because of it.

i agree with what is being said in principle [govt shouldnt be outlawing bulbs], but to say that someone can tell that you are using a specific bulb via your homes energy meter, and the subsequent visits from a officer, is imo a huge stretch.


[B]Can It Spy On You?

So long as you are using electrical appliances then yes, these smart meters can spy on you. The data can tell whether you are using medical devices, what TV you are using, how often you are on your computer, and what time you plug in your phone for charging. In fact, the CPUC or California Public Utilities Commission adopted privacy rules that will allow energy companies to disclose the gathered data. The SDG&E had already disclosed information of more than 4,000 customers to third parties [3].

That information could be used for advertising on specific people but it also breaks a lot of privacy laws as well. They also pose the threat of terrorism and hacking – criminals could read the data and learn exactly what time you are not at home to break in and steal your stuff.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JNFr_j6kdI

And... http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2012/12/121212-smart-meter-privacy/

Carson
03-22-2014, 03:46 PM
Lets not forget the smart meters put out one more radio signal in some form of radiation that we have to try and live with.

oyarde
03-22-2014, 03:49 PM
I have enough light bulbs to last I think . I gave 52 cents ea for them . Electric bills are tricky , you have to read on ea bill how many days are in the billing period . Over the years , different places , I have had them as much as 35 days and as low as a couple weeks . Then there is the rate per KWH . Everyone should know theres and what you normally use per day . In winter , mine is about $3
a day , less in summer. I have some lights that are on much , much more in winter . Out building , basement , hen house etc

tod evans
03-22-2014, 04:27 PM
So long as you are using electrical appliances then yes, these smart meters can spy on you. The data can tell whether you are using medical devices, what TV you are using, how often you are on your computer, and what time you plug in your phone for charging.

They'd have fun with my usage...

There's times I easily spike 3-400amps of low voltage 3-phase, depends on what I'm runnin'....

Dr.3D
03-22-2014, 04:30 PM
They'd have fun with my usage...

There's times I easily spike 3-400amps of low voltage 3-phase, depends on what I'm runnin'....
LOL, do a little welding and they will be very confused.

Zippyjuan
03-22-2014, 04:41 PM
Anybody paying $50 for lightbulbs yet? (three years since first post)?

Dr.3D
03-22-2014, 04:42 PM
Anybody paying $50 for lightbulbs yet? (three years since first post)?
Still waiting. I've got a case of them in the basement for when it happens.

oyarde
03-22-2014, 04:45 PM
Anybody paying $50 for lightbulbs yet? (three years since first post)?

I would just light all the oil lamps , I have a bunch of lamp oil .

GunnyFreedom
03-22-2014, 04:51 PM
Anybody paying $50 for lightbulbs yet? (three years since first post)?

I paid $48 each for a couple 100w equivalent LED bulbs when they first came out. Eight rounds of incandescents and 2 rounds of CFL's later, the LED's are still going strong. 100w equivalent LEDs are now down to around $20.

Oh, and the article never claimed that incandescents would sell for $50 each, just the LEDs.

Where I live, with dirty power, we've had incandescents blow within a week of being installed. I have never seen an LED bulb fail yet. I have no problem paying more money for technology that actually works.

What pisses ME off is that LED's are only so much more expensive because their early market share was eroded by CFL mandates.

Big Chuck
03-22-2014, 05:09 PM
I can't imagine the police being able to get a search warrant based off of a pattern of electric usage. At least not a warrant that could withstand the scrutiny of an average defense attorny. Forget the fact that there are a polethera of other appliances that would mimic such a pattern of usage, such as a few small servers for instance. Showing a pattern consistent with growing lamps only shows they are using growing lamps. There are a great many types of plants that require 12 hours of sunlight. Can the police get a search warrant if they see you buying potting soil? Of course not.

It would also be extremely easy for criminals to circumnavigate such monitoring. All they would have to do would be to run their lamps off 12V car batteries, and recharge them at random times of the day.

I just don't see the police or government being interested in your power usage. Power companies on the other hand have a great deal to gain by knowing your usage habits. Every extra boiler or turbine generator not running at full load is money down the drain. I shouldn't have to point out the fact that power companies saving money is good for all parties involved.

The only reason why this issue is a little murcky is because power companies are really government backed monopolies. Of course no one is forcing you to buy power from them. It might be more expensive, but you do have other options. You could get a natural gas generator setup with very little upfront cost.

tod evans
03-22-2014, 05:12 PM
I can't imagine the police being able to get a search warrant based off of a pattern of electric usage. At least not a warrant that could withstand the scrutiny of an average defense attorny.

What in the world leads you to believe defense attorneys are consulted prior to warrants being issued?

oyarde
03-22-2014, 05:14 PM
What in the world leads you to believe defense attorneys are consulted prior to warrants being issued?

Judges should never sign warrants for that . There is no reason .

Dr.3D
03-22-2014, 05:15 PM
Of course no one is forcing you to buy power from them. It might be more expensive, but you do have other options. You could get a natural gas generator setup with very little upfront cost.
I've seen a lot of activity about people who are not connected to the electric power grid. In many places, if you are not connected to the grid, your home will be condemned as uninhabitable and you would be evicted. If you connect to the grid and don't use any electricity from it, they still charge you a distribution fee. It seems you cant win.

oyarde
03-22-2014, 05:18 PM
I've seen a lot of activity about people who are not connected to the electric power grid. In many places, if you are not connected to the grid, your home will be condemned as uninhabitable and you would be evicted. If you connect to the grid and don't use any electricity from it, they still charge you a distribution fee. It seems you cant win.
Where I used to live , the electric co op there had a minimum monthly fee of $35 to be hooked up , so , even if you did not use any , you were looking @ that .

ClydeCoulter
03-22-2014, 05:20 PM
Where I used to live , the electric co op there had a minimum monthly fee of $35 to be hooked up , so , even if you did not use any , you were looking @ that .

The co-op here does that, 35/mth for my shop even if I don't use any. :(

GunnyFreedom
03-22-2014, 05:34 PM
I can't imagine the police being able to get a search warrant based off of a pattern of electric usage.

Actually, it happens all the time.

http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/html/AR/CourtAppeals/2013/3_December_2013/13-305.pdf

http://www.theweedblog.com/do-utilities-tell-cops-about-marijuana-gardens-with-high-electricity-bills/

Power company decides that a person's light bill looks like a grow operation. Power company calls police, police obtain warrant for pattern of electricity usage, cops raid persons home, and as often as not find not a marijuana plant in site.

So yes, the police already get search warrants based off a pattern of electric usage all the time.

Zippyjuan
03-22-2014, 05:39 PM
A grow operation will use a hugely higher amount of electricity compared to an average home (not just the grow lights but also air conditioning to take away the heat from the grow lights). Changing what lightbulbs you use or buying a new appliance won't make enough dramatic difference in usage to trigger any sort of investigation on that.

Big Chuck
03-22-2014, 06:17 PM
What in the world leads you to believe defense attorneys are consulted prior to warrants being issued?

Do you really think that is what I meant?

An attorney can have evidence thrown out if it was obtained through an invalid search warrant. If a search warrant is deemed to have insufficient evidence for it to have been issued in the first place, it can be invalidated.


Actually, it happens all the time.

http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/html/AR/CourtAppeals/2013/3_December_2013/13-305.pdf

http://www.theweedblog.com/do-utilities-tell-cops-about-marijuana-gardens-with-high-electricity-bills/

Power company decides that a person's light bill looks like a grow operation. Power company calls police, police obtain warrant for pattern of electricity usage, cops raid persons home, and as often as not find not a marijuana plant in site.

So yes, the police already get search warrants based off a pattern of electric usage all the time.

How exactly is a power company supposed to know what is being grown with those growing lamps? How do they know that person doesn't have an erb garden?

Power companies won't go to the police if they think you are using growing lamps. Police are the ones who will go to the power companies to look for these usage patterns of someone they are trying to build a case against. They will use that information plus a whole bunch of other stuff to demonstrate a preponderance of evidence to a judge to obtain a search warrant.

tod evans
03-22-2014, 06:19 PM
Do you really think that is what I meant?

An attorney can have evidence thrown out if it was obtained through an invalid search warrant. If a search warrant is deemed to have insufficient evidence for it to have been issued in the first place, it can be invalidated.


Good luck with that...

Ever been in a courtroom as a 'defendant'?

GunnyFreedom
03-22-2014, 06:23 PM
Do you really think that is what I meant?

An attorney can have evidence thrown out if it was obtained through an invalid search warrant. If a search warrant is deemed to have insufficient evidence for it to have been issued in the first place, it can be invalidated.



How exactly is a power company supposed to know what is being grown with those growing lamps? How do they know that person doesn't have an erb garden?

Power companies won't go to the police if they think you are using growing lamps. Police are the ones who will go to the power companies to look for these usage patterns of someone they are trying to build a case against. They will use that information plus a whole bunch of other stuff to demonstrate a preponderance of evidence to a judge to obtain a search warrant.

It simply doesn't matter whether the power company can tell what is being grown or not. The police still show up with guns, break down your door, and shoot your dog. They will take your stuff, and if they do not charge you with a crime, then they will keep your stuff to entrap someone else in a fictitious crime, or sell it off to buy a new BearCat.

Big Chuck
03-22-2014, 07:33 PM
It simply doesn't matter whether the power company can tell what is being grown or not. The police still show up with guns, break down your door, and shoot your dog. They will take your stuff, and if they do not charge you with a crime, then they will keep your stuff to entrap someone else in a fictitious crime, or sell it off to buy a new BearCat.

My point is that using growing lamps will not set off any red bells. Your dog won't get shot because the power company said you were using growing lamps. Your dog will get shot because the police have decided you are guilty, and will invent any evidence they have to to put you away. Smart meters are really irrelevant as to the outcome.

presence
03-22-2014, 07:39 PM
Mexican Lightbulb Cartels?

Mach
03-22-2014, 09:59 PM
Page 16 (actual)

Privacy in the Home


https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42338.pdf

kcchiefs6465
03-22-2014, 10:47 PM
Do you really think that is what I meant?

An attorney can have evidence thrown out if it was obtained through an invalid search warrant. If a search warrant is deemed to have insufficient evidence for it to have been issued in the first place, it can be invalidated.

How exactly is a power company supposed to know what is being grown with those growing lamps? How do they know that person doesn't have an erb garden?

Power companies won't go to the police if they think you are using growing lamps. Police are the ones who will go to the power companies to look for these usage patterns of someone they are trying to build a case against. They will use that information plus a whole bunch of other stuff to demonstrate a preponderance of evidence to a judge to obtain a search warrant.
The Exclusionary Rule has been so eroded by SCOTUS decisions that it is virtually a shell of what it once was. "Good faith" exceptions and the "totality of circumstances" test (US v. Leon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Leon) and Illinois v. Gates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_v_Gates), respectively) has created a situation where the police are willing to take the risk violating your rights on the rare chance evidence will be thrown out when many of their actions are easily justifiable to meet SCOTUS etched out Fourth Amendment exceptions (exemptions).

Massachusetts v. Sheppard and Segura v. United States were equally troublesome to the Exclusionary Rule.

Nix v. Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Williams), [Nix v. Williams, 467 U.S. 431 (1984),] was a US Supreme Court decision that created an "inevitable discovery" exception to the exclusionary rule. The exclusionary rule makes most evidence gathered through violations of the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution, which protects against unreasonable search and seizure, inadmissible in criminal trials as "fruit of the poisonous tree". In Nix, the Court ruled that evidence that would inevitably have been discovered by law enforcement through legal means remained admissible.[1]

Good-faith Exception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good-faith_exception)

Furthermore, with regards to the rest of your post, you don't know what you are talking about. Power companies will come to check the meter to see if it was tampered with or is malfunctioning if the reading is abnormally high or low. They can see usage spikes and are easily able to notice patterns between possible grow cycles. (every day at a specific time, for instance, your electricity usage jumps to 'suspicious' highs for twelve hours, then recedes to average levels) They will notify the police without your knowledge of them doing so. The police will come and through simply saying they smelled marijuana, saw an excessive amount of vehicle traffic, saw security lighting or cameras, or anything in between, and along with the circumstantial, at best, testimony of the electric company worker obtain a warrant. There are ways to get around that, too, if the worker has some sense of decency. (or at doesn't wish to be involved in a prosecution)

You better have the money for an attorney worth half a shit. Even if it is proven that they acted unlawfully or "extralegally" if they really want to make the charges stick on you, they'll stick. At best for you, you may be acquitted with your property seized and a penalty to pay the IRS. This scenario more than likely involves becoming an agent yourself. At worst you'll go to prison for multiple decades.


Electronic meters now use low-power radio, GSM, GPRS, Bluetooth, IrDA, as well as RS-485 wired link. The meters can now store the entire usage profiles with time stamps and relay them at a click of a button. The demand readings stored with the profiles accurately indicate the load requirements of the customer. This load profile data is processed at the utilities for billing and planning purposes.

Electricity Meter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_meter#Communication_methods)



In electrical engineering, a load profile is a graph of the variation in the electrical load versus time. A load profile will vary according to customer type (typical examples include residential, commercial and industrial), temperature and holiday seasons.

Load Profile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_profile)

Anti Federalist
03-22-2014, 11:01 PM
Anybody paying $50 for lightbulbs yet? (three years since first post)?

No, thankfully, in part because of articles like the OP, enforcement of the light bulb ban was defunded.

Anti Federalist
03-22-2014, 11:04 PM
So now, the usual suspects play the usual game and move the goalposts from:

"Smart meters can't do what you say! Yer nuts!"

To:

"So what they can do what you said they could? Government doesn't care, yer paranoid!"

Just another day in AmeriKa.

Anti Federalist
03-22-2014, 11:07 PM
Good luck with that...

Ever been in a courtroom as a 'defendant'?

Last time I looked, FedCoat courts had a 97 percent conviction rate.

kcchiefs6465
03-22-2014, 11:15 PM
Last time I looked, FedCoat courts had a 97 percent conviction rate.
Wasn't that simply the percentage of those pleading guilty?

Carson
03-22-2014, 11:16 PM
Last time I looked, FedCoat courts had a 97 percent conviction rate.

...and unlimited funding to get their way.

PRB
03-22-2014, 11:18 PM
No, thankfully, in part because of articles like the OP, enforcement of the light bulb ban was defunded.

so incandescent dimmable lights are still legal?

kcchiefs6465
03-22-2014, 11:23 PM
Wasn't that simply the percentage of those pleading guilty?
Indeed it is. What a fucked up statistic.



If Mr. Kassab had pleaded guilty, he would have joined a growing number of federal defendants who take that option, often to avoid the lengthy prison sentences that can come with losing at trial. These days, not many people exercise their right to a jury trial; even fewer hear a "not guilty" verdict read by their peers.

The triumph of plea bargaining in the federal system, which has gathered pace in recent years, is nearly complete. Guilty pleas last year resolved 97% of all federal cases that the Justice Department prosecuted to a conclusion. That is up from 84% in 1990. During that period, the number of federal defendants nearly doubled amid a crackdown on crimes ranging from drug trafficking to fraud, while the number going to trial fell by nearly two-thirds.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390443589304577637610097206808

Of the remaining three percent that actually make it to trial, I bet a majority of the people are crucified. 99%+ conviction rate, probably, when one takes into account 97% are convicted absent a trial.

And they goddamn sit and preach about Snowden going through the proper channels.

This is why I don't like doing the math. These statistics are so goddamn awful it's unbelievable.

ETAII: No, it appears I was correct. (Edited back to the original post)

oyarde
03-22-2014, 11:59 PM
A grow operation will use a hugely higher amount of electricity compared to an average home (not just the grow lights but also air conditioning to take away the heat from the grow lights). Changing what lightbulbs you use or buying a new appliance won't make enough dramatic difference in usage to trigger any sort of investigation on that.

I use grow lights in my basement end of March to start my tomatoes. Anyone entering my property who comes unfriendly has put my life and own in grave peril .

Big Chuck
03-23-2014, 08:14 AM
The Exclusionary Rule has been so eroded by SCOTUS decisions that it is virtually a shell of what it once was. "Good faith" exceptions and the "totality of circumstances" test (US v. Leon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Leon) and Illinois v. Gates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_v_Gates), respectively) has created a situation where the police are willing to take the risk violating your rights on the rare chance evidence will be thrown out when many of their actions are easily justifiable to meet SCOTUS etched out Fourth Amendment exceptions (exemptions).

Massachusetts v. Sheppard and Segura v. United States were equally troublesome to the Exclusionary Rule.

Nix v. Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Williams), [Nix v. Williams, 467 U.S. 431 (1984),] was a US Supreme Court decision that created an "inevitable discovery" exception to the exclusionary rule. The exclusionary rule makes most evidence gathered through violations of the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution, which protects against unreasonable search and seizure, inadmissible in criminal trials as "fruit of the poisonous tree". In Nix, the Court ruled that evidence that would inevitably have been discovered by law enforcement through legal means remained admissible.[1]

Good-faith Exception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good-faith_exception)

Furthermore, with regards to the rest of your post, you don't know what you are talking about. Power companies will come to check the meter to see if it was tampered with or is malfunctioning if the reading is abnormally high or low. They can see usage spikes and are easily able to notice patterns between possible grow cycles. (every day at a specific time, for instance, your electricity usage jumps to 'suspicious' highs for twelve hours, then recedes to average levels) They will notify the police without your knowledge of them doing so. The police will come and through simply saying they smelled marijuana, saw an excessive amount of vehicle traffic, saw security lighting or cameras, or anything in between, and along with the circumstantial, at best, testimony of the electric company worker obtain a warrant. There are ways to get around that, too, if the worker has some sense of decency. (or at doesn't wish to be involved in a prosecution)

You better have the money for an attorney worth half a shit. Even if it is proven that they acted unlawfully or "extralegally" if they really want to make the charges stick on you, they'll stick. At best for you, you may be acquitted with your property seized and a penalty to pay the IRS. This scenario more than likely involves becoming an agent yourself. At worst you'll go to prison for multiple decades.



Electricity Meter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_meter#Communication_methods)




Load Profile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_profile)


First, I obviously wasn't talking about tampering with electric meters. Of course that will result in the power company notifying the police.

Now, I'm going to give you a bunch of reasons as to why you are wrong. You do what you want with it.

The electric usage of a typical household will not look like a sum of its loads. There are many appliances whose current varies with time. Air conditioners will have an on/off current draw. Other things like computers and televisions will ramp up dynamically. Electric ovens will cyclye on and off, ect. If you were to represent the sum of the power usage, it would look more like an audio signal than a straight line.

What this means is that it is very hard to tell what kind of load is being added at a certain time. If a static load, such as a group of growing lamps, is added to a significantly larger dynamic load, it is extremely difficult to tell if it is even a static load, let alone what that load is. It would take months , if not years, to get enough data points, to predict with any statistical significance, that the load being added is static. An entire household load is extremely dynamic over time. Even if you use your microwave at 70% power, at the same time every day, for the same duration, the load vs time plot will still vary ever so slightly because of things like the positioning of motor windings for example.

The NSA could put together these patterns nesesary to make predictions as to what a load is comprised of. The power company, however, has no incentive to know what your load is comprised of. They only care about predicting your total usage, so they can accurately predict how many generators they will need to run to meet the demands of their customers. Every generator not running loaded to its peak efficiency is wasted money.

However, for arguments sake, let's say the power company was mirracuously able to tell that someone was using growing lamps. Well, so what. It's not illegal to use growing lamps, nor is it indicative of a crime. The overwhelmingly vast majority of growing lamps are used for legal purposes. The growing cycle for pot also sounds just like every vegetable I have ever heard of. Twelve hours of sunlight for 150 some days. How is that unique? Using growing lamps is no more evidence of a crime than the use of potting soil.

The only way smart meters will be used against you is if the police request information from the power company to support a case. Even if they could, the power company would not try to detect patterns of illegal behavior not associated with power being stolen. Ignoring the extreme complexity of deconstructing usage data, why would the electric company activaley search for reasons to get paying customers arrested?

Anti Federalist
03-23-2014, 10:46 AM
Wasn't that simply the percentage of those pleading guilty?

Looks like you already researched it.

kcchiefs6465
03-23-2014, 12:31 PM
First, I obviously wasn't talking about tampering with electric meters. Of course that will result in the power company notifying the police.

Now, I'm going to give you a bunch of reasons as to why you are wrong. You do what you want with it.

The electric usage of a typical household will not look like a sum of its loads. There are many appliances whose current varies with time. Air conditioners will have an on/off current draw. Other things like computers and televisions will ramp up dynamically. Electric ovens will cyclye on and off, ect. If you were to represent the sum of the power usage, it would look more like an audio signal than a straight line.

What this means is that it is very hard to tell what kind of load is being added at a certain time. If a static load, such as a group of growing lamps, is added to a significantly larger dynamic load, it is extremely difficult to tell if it is even a static load, let alone what that load is. It would take months , if not years, to get enough data points, to predict with any statistical significance, that the load being added is static. An entire household load is extremely dynamic over time. Even if you use your microwave at 70% power, at the same time every day, for the same duration, the load vs time plot will still vary ever so slightly because of things like the positioning of motor windings for example.

The NSA could put together these patterns nesesary to make predictions as to what a load is comprised of. The power company, however, has no incentive to know what your load is comprised of. They only care about predicting your total usage, so they can accurately predict how many generators they will need to run to meet the demands of their customers. Every generator not running loaded to its peak efficiency is wasted money.

However, for arguments sake, let's say the power company was mirracuously able to tell that someone was using growing lamps. Well, so what. It's not illegal to use growing lamps, nor is it indicative of a crime. The overwhelmingly vast majority of growing lamps are used for legal purposes. The growing cycle for pot also sounds just like every vegetable I have ever heard of. Twelve hours of sunlight for 150 some days. How is that unique? Using growing lamps is no more evidence of a crime than the use of potting soil.

The only way smart meters will be used against you is if the police request information from the power company to support a case. Even if they could, the power company would not try to detect patterns of illegal behavior not associated with power being stolen. Ignoring the extreme complexity of deconstructing usage data, why would the electric company activaley search for reasons to get paying customers arrested?

The electric meter outside your house helps the power company determine just how much to bill you every month. But it can also give authorities a peek into your life to see if you've been up to no good.

A former state trooper learned that lesson when Dorchester County deputies raided his Ridgeville rental property in January 2010 and discovered a sophisticated indoor marijuana farm.

Court papers recently filed in the case revealed that investigators were tipped off by the tenant's utility company. Edisto Electric workers called police after noticing unusually high electricity use on the property and numerous instances of tripping circuits, authorities said.

The find was a boon for law enforcement, but it raises questions about the electric company's role in the process: Should a utility function as an arm of law enforcement and share information about its paying customers without a warrant based purely on its suspicions?

Edisto Electric, a rural electric cooperative based in Bamberg, refused to comment on the incident or its policies for sharing information with police. Spokesman Frank Furtick cited the pending criminal case and "a policy of Edisto Electric to refrain from publicly commenting on such things."


Dorchester County sheriff's Maj. John Garrison said the utility was being a good corporate citizen and helped the sheriff's office uncover a significant growing operation that might otherwise have escaped attention.

"I don't know if we would have found it without them," he said.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20120129/PC1602/301299979



GRAND RAPIDS -- The attorney for suspended Press columnist David Mayo said today he is "appalled" that police targeted his client for a marijuana bust at his home after Mayo bought grow lights from a company that advertises in "High Times" magazine.

An undercover drug unit searched Mayo's Fuller Avenue NE home in January after tracking a shipment of planting supplies and finding his electric bill was double that of neighbors.

Attorney Bruce Block said police should have a higher standard to obtain a search warrant and said he would file a challenge in court.
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/03/press_columnist_david_mayos_la.html


A million pounds worth of hi-tech heat-seeking camera kit is helping high-flying cops to weed out unsuspecting cannabis growers in the West Midlands.
These incredible pictures taken from a £5.5million police helicopter show how coppers are bringing the illegal cannabis-growing business out of the shadows and leading officers straight to the door of the criminals.

http://i.imgur.com/JqFJ4D6.jpg?1

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120626/House-hiding-cannabis-factory-captured-helicopter-police-thermal-imaging-camera.html#ixzz2woJKeWq4


Two former CIA employees are suing Kansas police, claiming a raid on their home was unfounded. They say a SWAT team descended on their home in April 2012 without a warrant in search of contraband, only to find vegetables growing in their basement.

Adlynn and Robert Harte claimed that even after repeated attempts for clarification, police have refused to divulge any reasoning for the raid, the AP reports. They believe the decision came from government officials who knew the Hartes had purchased equipment from a store selling hydroponics – which can be used to grow marijuana, among other plants


Robert and Adlyn said their two children, aged 7 and 13, were “shocked and frightened” when a SWAT team wielding assault weapons pounded on their door just after 7:00 in the morning.

“If this can happen to us and we are educated and have reasonable resources, how does [sic] somebody who maybe hasn’t led a perfect life supposed to be free in this country?” Adlynn asked in an interview with the AP.

Robert Harte said that the family had three tomato plants, one melon and two butternut squash growing in the basement after using high powered lights to build the hydroponic garden years ago.
http://rt.com/usa/raid-finds-tomatoes-pot-183/





Now, I could post many more stories highlighting aerial sightings of sunflowers being sworn on an affidavit to be marijuana plants leading to raids, or the many homeowners killed through the police's ridiculous tactics, while all the while tying it to the erosion of the Exclusionary Rule, Qualified Immunity, and the Circular Force Continuum. You may be wondering what my point is. My point is simply that they can get a warrant because of electrical usage abnormalities. The two circumstance test is not required. That does not mean that they will not attempt to make their warrant look stronger than it is (that way if they fuck up, which they know is a very real possibility, they can point to the various things and cower behind their qualified immunity). The officer may cite garbage cans not being put out on trash day, or vehicles coming and going, or a heat signature abnormal to the other homes in the neighborhood, or a skunky smell, or cameras on the outside of the home, the purchase of grow lamps and more. There is a practice of "warrant shopping" that is prevalent as well.

As to why the electric company would wish to inform upon their most valuable customers, I can only assume it is because they, individually, sat through some 17,000 hours of indoctrination, some of which included seminars from DARE officer friendly to turn in their parents, and because they are petty. I really can't rightfully say why some people feel so compelled to call the police. It's a weird, and prevalent, phenomenon. An electric company actively ignoring abnormal electrical patterns would not be above the DOJ's harassment. I'm also not specifically aware of what laws are in place regarding this. It has happened. It will happen again. And if it's your freedom on the line, one would be wise to take heed to the various unconstitutional, criminal tactics that the police are using and the help they are receiving from companies and people in general.

kcchiefs6465
03-23-2014, 01:18 PM
Looks like you already researched it.
Best I can tell looking at a WSJ graph, some 13% percent of people taking it to trial are acquitted. I would be somewhat surprised if it is that high.

I'm going through some stats now to see if I can't get a definitive percentage. No doubt it is an absurdly one sided statistic.

Couple that in with Three Felonies a Day, and the various federal bureaucracies making laws as they go, and this is a serious problem.

As I've noted in other threads, 83% of the "crimes" compiled within the Uniform Crime Report are not crimes. There is no victim. The majority of the 83% being drug related. Of the remaining 17%, a large portion of that are property crimes. These could be handled absent incarceration.

So I guess the real question to be asked, considering these absurd and depressing statistics, is: Just where and the fuck do these nationalistic brain dead assholes get off waving flags and bragging about freedom?

GunnyFreedom
03-23-2014, 01:25 PM
Best I can tell looking at a WSJ graph, some 13% percent of people taking it to trial are acquitted. I would be somewhat surprised if it is that high.

I'm going through some stats now to see if I can't get a definitive percentage. No doubt it is an absurdly one sided statistic.

Couple that in with Three Felonies a Day, and the various federal bureaucracies making laws as they go, and this is a serious problem.

As I've noted in other threads, 83% of the "crimes" compiled within the Uniform Crime Report are not crimes. There is no victim. The majority of the 83% being drug related. Of the remaining 17%, a large portion of that are property crimes. These could be handled absent incarceration.

So I guess the real question to be asked, considering these absurd and depressing statistics, is: Just where and the fuck do these nationalistic brain dead assholes get off waving flags and bragging about freedom?

At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, but for the sake of illustration, the Germans on Hitler's GOOD side were actually pretty free...

Anti Federalist
03-23-2014, 01:27 PM
So I guess the real question to be asked, considering these absurd and depressing statistics, is: Just where and the fuck do these nationalistic brain dead assholes get off waving flags and bragging about freedom?

Because that's how it's always been done.

Big Chuck
03-24-2014, 08:02 AM
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20120129/PC1602/301299979



http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/03/press_columnist_david_mayos_la.html


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120626/House-hiding-cannabis-factory-captured-helicopter-police-thermal-imaging-camera.html#ixzz2woJKeWq4




http://rt.com/usa/raid-finds-tomatoes-pot-183/





Now, I could post many more stories highlighting aerial sightings of sunflowers being sworn on an affidavit to be marijuana plants leading to raids, or the many homeowners killed through the police's ridiculous tactics, while all the while tying it to the erosion of the Exclusionary Rule, Qualified Immunity, and the Circular Force Continuum. You may be wondering what my point is. My point is simply that they can get a warrant because of electrical usage abnormalities. The two circumstance test is not required. That does not mean that they will not attempt to make their warrant look stronger than it is (that way if they fuck up, which they know is a very real possibility, they can point to the various things and cower behind their qualified immunity). The officer may cite garbage cans not being put out on trash day, or vehicles coming and going, or a heat signature abnormal to the other homes in the neighborhood, or a skunky smell, or cameras on the outside of the home, the purchase of grow lamps and more. There is a practice of "warrant shopping" that is prevalent as well.

As to why the electric company would wish to inform upon their most valuable customers, I can only assume it is because they, individually, sat through some 17,000 hours of indoctrination, some of which included seminars from DARE officer friendly to turn in their parents, and because they are petty. I really can't rightfully say why some people feel so compelled to call the police. It's a weird, and prevalent, phenomenon. An electric company actively ignoring abnormal electrical patterns would not be above the DOJ's harassment. I'm also not specifically aware of what laws are in place regarding this. It has happened. It will happen again. And if it's your freedom on the line, one would be wise to take heed to the various unconstitutional, criminal tactics that the police are using and the help they are receiving from companies and people in general.


Court papers recently filed in the case revealed that investigators were tipped off by the tenant's utility company. Edisto Electric workers called police after noticing unusually high electricity use on the property and numerous instances of tripping circuits, authorities said.

I call shinanigans on this one.

There are just too many reasons someone would have a higher electric bill. Unusual meter readings happen all the time. I prepare bills for a client who resells electricity. Pretty much every month there are unusual readings and it is my job to provide accurate estimates. I have to make up estimates literly every month mostly because electric meters are so prone to failure and are junk for the most part. These are commercial tenants, but even if they were residential, illegal activity would be my last assumption. There are just too many more probabable explanations. There is not someone at the power company looking at usage patterns saying, "Hmm, this guy's AC might be on the fritz, or maybe he has a bad meter, I better call the police."

One of two things is going on. This media outlet has there facts mixed up or the police lied because they didn't go through the proper channels do get that persons power usage.

Danke
06-17-2014, 12:53 PM
this thread screams to me that I am no longer a fit for these forums.

those with the most rep I have the least respect for.

so never mind me people. I'm slowly backing away towards the door.

A Real Conservative...

ARealConservative
06-17-2014, 12:58 PM
A Real Conservative...

the tin foil hat morons will never to admit they were wrong.

Danke
06-17-2014, 01:01 PM
the tin foil hat morons will never to admit they were wrong.

Everybody can be wrong, do you have specific examples of forum members being wrong?

GunnyFreedom
06-17-2014, 01:15 PM
Everybody can be wrong, do you have specific examples of forum members being wrong?

I dunno. Maybe this guy likes the CFL mandates?

ARealConservative
04-22-2015, 01:03 PM
I'm not a betting man, so I only bet on sure things:

The AgileWaves whole house home energy monitoring system, that will monitor down to each outlet and what's on it.



Highly Detailed Information Puts Users In Control
Sometimes it can be hard to figure out where your energy is going within your home. But with monitoring systems like this, the information can get extremely detailed. With Agilewaves' system, users can look at energy use in each room of the home, and will soon be able to see pinpointed information down to even the exact appliance and outlet.

Already, a parent can see if their teen has been watching television in their room all night long. But in the next iteration of the system, they'll be able to pinpoint, say, a leaky irrigation system as the reason for a spike in their water bill.

Additionally, the system itself uses an extremely low wattage - between 20 and 30 watts depending on the size of the system - so it makes as little impact on homeowners' energy use as possible.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/09/agilewaves-shows-off-user-friendly-home-energy-monitoring-system-at-wcg-2008.php

5 years in, and this still does not exist.

agilewaves is defunct, and no system is in existance that will report on a 100 watt light bulb.

how many more years do you need before you admit you are full of shit?

phill4paul
04-22-2015, 02:39 PM
5 years in, and this still does not exist.

agilewaves is defunct, and no system is in existance that will report on a 100 watt light bulb.

how many more years do you need before you admit you are full of shit?

Seems you forgot to close the door on your way out.

ARealConservative
04-22-2015, 03:11 PM
Seems you forgot to close the door on your way out.

I come back periodically. the idea that people with an interest in Rand Paul have to see the totality of bullshit some of the posters around here deal in is unnerving.