Arizona to Build Own Fence on US-Mexico Border

[Flash]

Arizona Governor Jan Brewer signed 28 pieces of legislation on Thursday, among them authorization for the state to erect its own security fence along its portion of the U.S.-Mexico border, “either in a compact with other states or by itself.”

The bill allows the governor to build the fence along “private, state or federal property if permitted.” It does not specify an estimated cost or provide for the funds to build it. However, it does state that Arizona “would use donations, inmate labor and private contractors.”

There is no doubt about it. Arizona — and the U.S. — are under assault. The state serves as the “major gateway for illegal immigrants and marijuana smugglers.” (Not to mention clever smugglers who are catapulting marijuana over the fence.)

http://therealbarackobama.wordpress.com/2011/04/30/arizona-to-build-own-fence-on-us-mexico-border-how-long-before-open-border-protests-begin/

[Vessol]

Why not reform their social services and drug laws instead?

That would certainly be more effective and save money rather than building a pretty useless fence.

Isn't there a lot of fences there already? How effective are they?

[Grubb556]

So low level prisonsers are used for labor ?

[AGRP]

Why not reform their social services and drug laws instead?

That would certainly be more effective and save money rather than building a pretty useless fence.

Isn't there a lot of fences there already? How effective are they?

I currently like fences, but I would definitely attempt to do what you mentioned before building one.

I would also give border property owners the rights they already have. Seems that the powers that be sue property owners for enforcing existing trespassing laws.

[demolama]

If Arizona feels like that's the answer to their problem... more power to them. At least people have a choice either to live in AZ to pay for it or leave. People around the country also aren't forced to pay for it.

[Vessol]

I currently like fences, but I would definitely attempt to do what you mentioned before building one.

I would also give border property owners the rights they already have. Seems that the powers that be sue property owners simply for enforcing the existing trespassing laws.

I'm just wondering if fences are even effective in any way.

That's a lot of mileage to cover, and a fence is going to delay someone for what. Five minutes max?

[AGRP]

I'm just wondering if fences are even effective in any way.

That's a lot of mileage to cover, and a fence is going to delay someone for what. Five minutes max?

Fences wouldn't exist if they didnt work to some degree.

Kennels have them. The White House has one. You can get sued if you don't properly contain a potentially dangerous dog from doing harm to others.

[ClayTrainor]

Why not reform their social services and drug laws instead?


Because that requires people to admit that the government is the problem, not the solution... something most folks seem to be unwilling to do.

[ClayTrainor]

Fences wouldn't exist if they didnt work to some degree.

Using that logic, the FED and the Income Tax must also work to some degree. :p

[Vessol]

Fences wouldn't exist if they didnt work to some degree.

Kennels have them. The White House has one. You can get sued if you don't properly contain a potentially dangerous dog from doing harm to others.

Yeah, but those are like a few square yards or acres.

This is HUNDREDS of MILES.

Are you going to post a rotating guard post at every half mile stretch of fence?

This story and others says nothing about new guards, just about building a fence.

Fences are easy as hell to break and get through.

[libertyjam]

I'm just wondering if fences are even effective in any way.

That's a lot of mileage to cover, and a fence is going to delay someone for what. Five minutes max?

It seems that the Russians and the Germans understood that fences are only any good in conjunction with patrols, the fence is only there to slow the in/egressors long enough that maybe a patrol will pick them up. Otherwise, yep just a roadbump on the highway.

[AGRP]

Yeah, but those are like a few square yards or acres.

This is HUNDREDS of MILES.

Are you going to post a rotating guard post at every half mile stretch of fence?

If cost is an issue, it can be funded with donations or through the individual states. Honestly, the whole fence debate is pointless. Like I mentioned, there are many other ways to solve the problem before building one. But, to say that fences don't work isn't necessarily true.

Didn't the Soviets have one that worked pretty well? :)

[Dr.3D]

It seems that the Russians and the Germans understood that fences are only any good in conjunction with patrols, the fence is only there to slow the in/egressors long enough that maybe a patrol will pick them up. Otherwise, yep just a roadbump on the highway.

And everybody knew they would be shot if caught between the two fences.

[Vessol]

Watch this episode of Penn and Teller, go to around @4:00. Those Mexicans tear through that wall, under that wall, and over that all in a matter of a few minutes. What a fucking waste of goddamned money.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdGvIZut068


Didn't the Soviets have one that worked pretty well? :)

Only when they manned it with tens of thousands of guards and they just shot anyone trying to get through. Is that what you are proposing?

[JCLibertarian]

Glad I don't live in Arizona, I disagree with restrictions on immigration but their actions are permissible under the US Constitution, and the Federal Government has no authority to intervene. The authority to regulate Immigration is a power relegated to the States, as it is not one of the numerated powers of the Federal Government in Article I Section 8.
http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2010/04/28/immigration-vs-naturalization/

[Southron]

I would hold off donating money. Some federal court will shut it down.

[outspoken]

A fence there is like trying to kill an elephant with a fly swatter. Government handouts have to end.

[Brett85]

The authority to regulate Immigration is a power relegated to the States, as it is not one of the numerated powers of the Federal Government in Article I Section 8.
http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2010/04/28/immigration-vs-naturalization/

Not true. The Constitution gives the federal government the power to repel invasions, and the federal government can also determine naturalization policies.

[Southron]

A fence there is like trying to kill an elephant with a fly swatter. Government handouts have to end.

Just put the Constitutional Militia behind the fence.

[Vessol]

Just put the Constitutional Militia behind the fence.

Volunteers I assume?

[Southron]

Volunteers I assume?Absolutely.

[Vessol]

But you have to admit we should focus on getting rid of the actual problems; the drug war and welfare. That's what's really important.

[Dr.3D]

But you have to admit we should focus on getting rid of the actual problems; the drug war and welfare. That's what's really important.

Fix those two things, and the illegals will be flooding back across the border.

[Vessol]

Building a fence and setting up a militia is like watching an ant nest 24/7 and swatting any ants that come out of it.

Wouldn't it be better to perhaps clean up your filthy house that attracts the ants might help.

[Acala]

Why not reform their social services and drug laws instead?

That would certainly be more effective and save money rather than building a pretty useless fence.



a couple reasons-

Much of the cost of providing health care, education, and other benefits to illegals is by Federal mandate, either legislative or court ordered.

The same with drug policy. Arizona just legalized medical MJ and in response the US Attorney issued a letter threatening to prosecute not only growers but their landlords and lenders and perhaps even government officials who issue permits pursuant to zoning and business license ordinances.

So the Federal government has made immigration a problem and prohibits any solution.

But the BIG reason is that it is easier to blame some "out" group for problems than to address them directly.

The bottom line is that we lack courage in Arizona and the rest of the USA.




They

[Zippyjuan]

California has miles and miles of fencing on its border with Mexico. People go under, over, around, and though it. Tunnels are constantly being found which dig under it- some incredibly sophisticated and long. In one place, a ramp was found at the fence which would have allowed a fully loaded semi to be able to drive over it. It slows but does not stop those who want to come. And something like 40% of people in the US illegally came here legally- on visas or as students or tourists or whatever and overstayed them.

[Zippyjuan]

a couple reasons-

Much of the cost of providing health care, education, and other benefits to illegals is by Federal mandate, either legislative or court ordered.

The same with drug policy. Arizona just legalized medical MJ and in response the US Attorney issued a letter threatening to prosecute not only growers but their landlords and lenders and perhaps even government officials who issue permits pursuant to zoning and business license ordinances.

So the Federal government has made immigration a problem and prohibits any solution.

But the BIG reason is that it is easier to blame some "out" group for problems than to address them directly.

The bottom line is that we lack courage in Arizona and the rest of the USA.




They

Things like drivers licenses and welfare payments and education are decided on at the local level- not the Federal level. States decide if they want to offer them to illegals. Yes, the Fed does require emergency medical treatment of people reguardless of immigration status. That would be a humanitarian issue.

[Southron]

And something like 40% of people in the US illegally came here legally- on visas or as students or tourists or whatever and overstayed them.

Not enforcing visa laws is definitely an issue, but I'm not sure what the state of Arizona can do about it.

[Vessol]

Not enforcing visa laws is definitely an issue, but I'm not sure what the state of Arizona can do about it.

It's not really something you can fix at all unless you want a monolithic police state to track all those people.

[Zippyjuan]

Of course jobs are the #1 reason people want to come here illegally- not welfare or drivers licenses. Get rid of those and they will stop coming. During the first two years of the current Economic Crisis estmates showed a decrease of total illegal aliens in the country by two million (from 12.6 million to 10.6 million). If we improve the economy, they will only want to come back- and maybe bring a friend.

[Vessol]

Not our jerbs!

[nolvorite]

Its hard to make a totally impenetrable border. Its not possible in this case, but well, I hope their efforts don't go futile

[libertybrewcity]

Arizona can end social services and legalize drugs, but that will hardly stop illegal immigration. They will just drive on up to the next state. When is Texas going to step up and pass some immigration reform?

[Flash]

California has miles and miles of fencing on its border with Mexico. People go under, over, around, and though it. Tunnels are constantly being found which dig under it- some incredibly sophisticated and long. In one place, a ramp was found at the fence which would have allowed a fully loaded semi to be able to drive over it. It slows but does not stop those who want to come.

Yes this is indeed true. Penn & Teller devoted an episode of BS on this subject. This is exactly the reason why there must be a greater emphasis on racial discriminatory laws in America. Some sort of race-based program to check if Hispanics are legal citizens, perhaps what I'm describing is similar to Arizona's recent immigration bill. I don't know if deporting them is practical, or possible, but if their numbers are greatly reduced, then it's beneficial.

Not only is this needed, but a government program to pay Whites to have children would be beneficial. That would allow for Americans to preserve their unique ethnic heritage and reduce the need for immigrants, which will preserve our cultural values. French Presidential candidate Marine Le Pen & the Russian government are proposing something similar for those nations.

[Feeding the Abscess]

Yes this is indeed true. Penn & Teller devoted an episode of BS on this subject. This is exactly the reason why there must be a greater emphasis on racial discriminatory laws in America. Some sort of race-based program to check if Hispanics are legal citizens, perhaps what I'm describing is similar to Arizona's recent immigration bill.

Not only is this needed, but a government program to pay whites who have children would also be greatly beneficial to preserve our unique ethnic heritage. Russia, and potential future French President Marine Le Pen are proposing something similar to decrease the need of immigration. I don't think it should be out of the question.

Yeah, let's do that!

:|

[nolvorite]

Yeah, let's do that!

:|
lol

[Dr.3D]

Not only is this needed, but a government program to pay Whites to have children would be beneficial. That would allow for Americans to preserve their unique ethnic heritage and reduce the need for immigrants, which will preserve our cultural values. French Presidential candidate Marine Le Pen & the Russian government are proposing something similar for those nations.

Genius!

:D

[Acala]

Things like drivers licenses and welfare payments and education are decided on at the local level- not the Federal level. States decide if they want to offer them to illegals. Yes, the Fed does require emergency medical treatment of people reguardless of immigration status. That would be a humanitarian issue.

I haven't parsed out all the issues, but I believe the Arizona school system is under Federal court order to not exclude illegals. You are correct about driver's licenses, but that is minimal cost and hardly a big draw to border-crossers. Food stamps are a federal program, as is social security. Arizona doesn't pay for them but can't interfere with them either.

As for health care, it ain't humanitarian if people are FORCED to pay for it - it's theft.

[AZKing]

I was listening to this on the radio this morning and someone pointed out the biggest problem which I've been saying forever: you can build a 20 foot fence and someone will build a 21 foot ladder to go past it.

If you really are determined to stop it, you'd have to put surveillance out as well.

[Zippyjuan]

Illegal aliens aren't elgible for Social Security.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/socialsecurity/illegal.asp

I can't find any court order concerning illegal aliens in schools. Some states do allow them to attend. California goes as far as granting in- state tuition at the State University system (which I disagree with allowing) but again, that is a state, not Federal action.

And as I pointed out, most are here for a better life and a job- not government handouts.

[Vessol]

I was listening to this on the radio this morning and someone pointed out the biggest problem which I've been saying forever: you can build a 20 foot fence and someone will build a 21 foot ladder to go past it.

If you really are determined to stop it, you'd have to put surveillance out as well.

And then what?

Take their pictures?

You'll have to build an infrastructure to track them down, to capture them, to bring them back.

You really don't think that would only help the already massive police state?

[aGameOfThrones]

 Make it impossible for the illegals to be hired add some land mines along the border then many wouldn't be so enthused to jump the border.

HUTCHtopher 2 days ago
Reply

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5xi30-_etM


Someone here suggested land mines. Good? Bad?

[Vessol]

Someone here suggested land mines. Good? Bad?

Why don't we also set up machine gun nests and drone patrols?

Hell, why don't we just drop some uranium and irradiate the entire border! That'll prevent those dirty brown people from coming over here and taking out jerbs!

[Dr.3D]

Someone here suggested land mines. Good? Bad?

How about an electric fence? LOL
Gotta keep those sheep where they belong ya know.

[JCLibertarian]

Not true. The Constitution gives the federal government the power to repel invasions, and the federal government can also determine naturalization policies.

But immigration doesn't constitute an invasion, a non-american army isn't entering America.

And I never disputed that the Federal Government has the constitutional right to confer citizenship, but that is entirely different than the federal Government regulating the movement of individuals.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Using that logic, the FED and the Income Tax must also work to some degree. :p

Of course they work. The question is for whom.

[ARealConservative]

Using that logic, the FED and the Income Tax must also work to some degree. :p

you don't think the Fed and income tax is working precisely as they intended?

[aGameOfThrones]

Why don't we also set up machine gun nests and drone patrols?

Hell, why don't we just drop some uranium and irradiate the entire border! That'll prevent those dirty brown people from coming over here and taking out jerbs!

They already use drones, no? I think I remember reading that. A Machine gun sounds too personal, land mines is the way to go.

[tpreitzel]

If the state of Arizona wants to build a fence, then so be it. However, the state won't be addressing the root cause of the problem, i.e. welfare. Personally, I'd profile based on language before building a fence regardless of howls echoing from Washington, D.C., but then I reject all constitutional amendments except for the first 12... ;)

[Brett85]

But immigration doesn't constitute an invasion.

It does in this situation when a mass number of people are coming across the border, and they're destroying private property and murdering ranchers. That's an invasion.

[eduardo89]

It does in this situation when a mass number of people are coming across the border, and they're destroying private property and murdering ranchers. That's an invasion.

I agree. The Constitution doesn't specify an invasion as a foreign country's army.