CATO video talks about Presidential candidates in shades of grey...

[JoshLowry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKs-6NDtDEc

CATO should be torpedoing Herman Cain, not calling him an "outsider" and "quite libertarian" on economic issues.

They should be targeting T Paw for saying "Might Makes Right", not pushing him as an "ok" candidate.

My youtube comment:
This video is edited to the point that it makes it look like Tim "Might Makes Right" Pawlenty as being worthy of support.
Tim Pawlenty is explicitly anti-libertarian just as Santorum was painted in this video.
Johnson talks about marijuana because of his cost-benefit analysis, not from a standpoint of liberty.
Ron Paul is THE liberty candidate.
How do you NOT know about Herman Cain. He used to work for the Federal Reserve and says they do not object to audits. He is NOT an outsider at all.
Am I watching this wrong?

Are the debate candidates black and white when it comes to being status quo to you?

[low preference guy]

Am I watching this wrong?

No.


Are the debate candidates black and white when it comes to being status quo to you?

Gary Johnson would be OK if Ron wasn't running. But when you compare him to Ron, he doesn't look good at all.

[civusamericanus]

You're right Josh, I expected better from CATO, they're not doing their homework.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

It's David Boaz what do you expect...he's about as cosmotarian as it gets.

[LibertyEagle]

It's David Boaz what do you expect...he's about as cosmotarian as it gets.

That's right. He was on Freedom Watch the other day bashing Ron Paul.

[JoshLowry]

Yea...

There are going to be a lot of new people that are being folded in and going over old lessons is going to be a common theme.

Opportunities to point out inconsistencies in organizations that fly the liberty flag should be taken.

[Dave Aiello]

Isn't CATO a Koch brothers spawn? isn't "students for liberty" also in bed with Koch? Strange that they're both trying to push Gary Johnson over Paul.

[Dave Aiello]

That's right. He was on Freedom Watch the other day bashing Ron Paul.

uh.. Tube? I hope the Judge put him in his place. I actually liked this guy after watching him on Stossel.

[Anti Federalist]

That's right. He was on Freedom Watch the other day bashing Ron Paul.

(S)TATO and Boaz had nothing good to say about Ron Paul last go around.

Nothing new here...not that it makes it right of course. CATO is nothing more than another establishment "flavor" when it comes right down to it.

It's called the (Koch)Topus.

[Imperial]

Isn't CATO a Koch brothers spawn? isn't "students for liberty" also in bed with Koch? Strange that they're both trying to push Gary Johnson over Paul.

1) Carol Paul likes David Koch on Facebook. Is she also in bed with the Koch brothers?

2) There is a hell of a lot of crossover between YAL and SFL, even up to the level of leadership. I don't know where this meme that SFL is solely pushing Johnson came from.

3) They were not supporting TPaw; they explicitly said he had little in the way of defined positions. He has simply set himself up as an "everything to anybody" guy, which means he cannot really be defined and they didn't really bother.

[Dreamofunity]

I hate Boaz.

[nathanmn]

I think the video is pretty spot on. They maybe made Herman Cain out to be more libertarian than the evidence suggests, but other than that it was accurate. Pawlenty is no libertarian, but he isn't a Santorum either. Santorum really is the anti-libertarian candidate like they said, the guy is a nut case. Trump is a joke candidate. The video could have given some more details, but overall it was pretty decent. CATO still rocks... they are possibly the most serious libertarian institution in America.

[Teaser Rate]

I disagree with your claim that a cost-benefit analysis does not represent the true view of liberty.

I’ll present myself as an example; I’m a moderate libertarian because I believe in pragmatism before idealism. I don’t oppose most government programs because I’m against the government’s existence in principle, I oppose them because they don’t work.

I think libertarian candidates would have a much easier time attracting voters like me to the table by making concise, evidence-driven arguments about the failure of government programs rather than by trying to re-position their moral compass.

I also don't think the Fed-related attack on Cain is going to be very effective as it is too abstract for most voters. If someone already knows what the Kansas City Fed is, they'll probably already know and support Ron Paul. Cain had never been elected to anything and has only gotten 26% of the vote in the only election he's ever been in, he's likely going to make a lot of mistakes in his campaign which will render the attacks on his record at the Fed unnecessary.

[JoshLowry]

I think the video is pretty spot on. They maybe made Herman Cain out to be more libertarian than the evidence suggests, but other than that it was accurate. Pawlenty is no libertarian, but he isn't a Santorum either. Santorum really is the anti-libertarian candidate like they said, the guy is a nut case. Trump is a joke candidate. The video could have given some more details, but overall it was pretty decent. CATO still rocks... they are possibly the most serious libertarian institution in America.

Herman Cain supported the bailout and opposed an audit of the Federal Reserve.

What is economically libertarian at all about that? Video is spot on? By putting CATO's name on this, David damages their reputation.

Cain damages his own.


I disagree with your claim that a cost-benefit analysis does not represent the true view of liberty.

I’ll present myself as an example; I’m a moderate libertarian because I believe in pragmatism before idealism. I don’t oppose most government programs because I’m against the government’s existence in principle, I oppose them because they don’t work.

I think libertarian candidates would have a much easier time attracting voters like me to the table by making concise, evidence-driven arguments about the failure of government programs rather than by trying to re-position their moral compass.

I also don't think the Fed-related attack on Cain is going to be very effective as it is too abstract for most voters. If someone already knows what the Kansas City Fed is, they'll probably already know and support Ron Paul. Cain had never been elected to anything and has only gotten 26% of the vote in the only election he's ever been in, he's likely going to make a lot of mistakes in his campaign which will render the attacks on his record at the Fed unnecessary.

People understand that the bailouts were garbage. 80% of people want an audit of the Fed.

Good article on humble libertarian recently: http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2011/05/herman-cain-is-not-true-tea-party.html

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I think the video is pretty spot on. They maybe made Herman Cain out to be more libertarian than the evidence suggests, but other than that it was accurate. Pawlenty is no libertarian, but he isn't a Santorum either. Santorum really is the anti-libertarian candidate like they said, the guy is a nut case. Trump is a joke candidate. The video could have given some more details, but overall it was pretty decent. CATO still rocks... they are possibly the most serious libertarian institution in America.

Ummmm what? Are you kidding me. Are you not acquainted with the Independent Review, the Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics (granted, its positive, not normative, but nonetheless), Mises Institute, Foundation for Economics Education, Future Freedom Foundation, etc. CATO has some good libertarian contributors, but they are on the whole, not libertarian.

[nathanmn]

Herman Cain supported the bailout and opposed an audit of the Federal Reserve.

What is economically libertarian at all about that? Video is spot on? By putting CATO's name on this, David damages their reputation.

Cain damages his own.


I said : "They maybe made Herman Cain out to be more libertarian than the evidence suggests"... if you have seen the video that others have posted here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WP5dYfBBzU&feature=player_embedded some say he had a hand in defeating Hillary care, and that gives him some economic libertarian street cred(more than Mitt Romney at least, even though Cain supported Romney).

[nathanmn]

Ummmm what? Are you kidding me. Are you not acquainted with the Independent Review, the Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics (granted, its positive, not normative, but nonetheless), Mises Institute, Foundation for Economics Education, Future Freedom Foundation, etc. CATO has some good libertarian contributors, but they are on the whole, not libertarian.

I've spent time on the Mises institute website, but can't recall any of the others. CATO represents a brand of libertarianism that could actually get somewhere in politics, they conduct research and use facts, and they get mainstream exposure and support. That is why I said they are one of the most, if not the most, serious libertarian institute... those are also the reasons why very few people outside of hardcore libertarians have probably ever heard of any of the names you mentioned(excepting maybe the mises institute).

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I said : "They maybe made Herman Cain out to be more libertarian than the evidence suggests"... if you have seen the video that others have posted here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WP5dYfBBzU&feature=player_embedded some say he had a hand in defeating Hillary care, and that gives him some economic libertarian street cred(more than Mitt Romney at least, even though Cain supported Romney).

That does not a libertarian make. That is like saying, a socialist has libertarian cred, for opposing fascist measures. Being a libertarian is a specific methodological, ethical, and moral thought-process. I get the same nausea inducing feeling when the Judge calls authoritarians like Bachmann a libertarian...it does the word injustice, and it makes me want to abandon it in the process. Perhaps, that is good (rejection of labels), but then it creates a vision in the minds of individuals in society a false picture of what libertarianism actually is. If the authoritarians take libertarian, what label shall I move to? I suppose Voluntaryist (which I all ready use) & nonarchist would suffice.

[JoshLowry]

CATO represents a brand of libertarianism that could actually get somewhere in politics, they conduct research and use facts, and they get mainstream exposure and support.

Libertarian means something. Herman Cain is NOT economically libertarian. AT ALL. I don't care if George Bush got mainstream exposure and support. He isn't economically libertarian either.

I also take Cain's words on the Federal Reserve of the last few years as a more accurate picture of how he would vote than where he somehow got special access to Clinton in the 90's.

[Anti Federalist]

I disagree with your claim that a cost-benefit analysis does not represent the true view of liberty.

I’ll present myself as an example; I’m a moderate libertarian because I believe in pragmatism before idealism. I don’t oppose most government programs because I’m against the government’s existence in principle, I oppose them because they don’t work.

Down that road lies the tyranny of the efficient.

"No, I won't oppose these 'programs' because they violate core human liberties, are flagrantly unconstitutional, or lay the foundation for future tyrannies as yet unseen or unknown: No I'll just oppose them because they 'don't work'. Opposing them on purely philosophical grounds and being completely uncompromising, smacks of 'kookery'."

The work/extermination camps of NAZI Germany were models of "efficiency".

(Neg rep to the first person that mentions Godwin's Law - LOL)

[Kotin]

Down that road lies the tyranny of the efficient.

"No, I won't oppose these 'programs' because they violate core human liberties, are flagrantly unconstitutional, or lay the foundation for future tyrannies as yet unseen or unknown: No I'll just oppose them because they 'don't work'. Opposing them on purely philosophical grounds and being completely uncompromising, smacks of 'kookery'."

The work/extermination camps of NAZI Germany were models of "efficiency".

(Neg rep to the first person that mentions Godwin's Law - LOL)



heheheheheheh

[Teaser Rate]

People understand that the bailouts were garbage. 80% of people want an audit of the Fed.

Good article on humble libertarian recently: http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2011/05/herman-cain-is-not-true-tea-party.html

I’m very skeptical of that poll. I’d like to see what methodology was used, but couldn’t find it on the pollster’s website. My guess is that the 80% figure was an artefact of selection bias, if you know about the Fed, odds are that you’re either working in the financial sector, an economist or a Ron Paul supporter. I’m very sceptical that if I were to go to a mall and ask 100 random people a basic question about the Fed that more than 30 would be able to answer it.

Put another way, anyone who considers the Fed's role as a top issue is probably already a Ron Paul supporter.

Regarding Cain's stance on TARP, I don't think it will hurt him that much because its an stance most of the Republican establishment also held at the time. Everyone from John McCain to Mitt Ronmey, Sarah Palin and even Glenn Beck supported it. For an attack to be effective, it has to differentiate one candidate from the rest of the field.

[Teaser Rate]

Down that road lies the tyranny of the efficient.

"No, I won't oppose these 'programs' because they violate core human liberties, are flagrantly unconstitutional, or lay the foundation for future tyrannies as yet unseen or unknown: No I'll just oppose them because they 'don't work'. Opposing them on purely philosophical grounds and being completely uncompromising, smacks of 'kookery'."

The work/extermination camps of NAZI Germany were models of "efficiency".

(Neg rep to the first person that mentions Godwin's Law - LOL)

You didn't need to tone your rhetoric down to spare my feelings, now tell us how you really feel.

[Johncjackson]

It's David Boaz what do you expect...he's about as cosmotarian as it gets.

So am I, and I support Ron Paul. A lot of Cato and other Koch-funded types do as well.

[Churchill2004]

Cato does a lot of good work. People should have let Rothbard's childish heresy-hunting be buried with him.

[AlexMerced]

REMEMBER: CATO is not Activist Organization, they are a policy think tank, their job is propose policy and build the relationships to have the policy enacted, being to judgemental of both parties would not satisfy their end.

The Mises institute and many other organizationg can take more hardline stances cause their mission is more to educate and organize than achieve policy ends.

Take CATOs role into context before you judge them to harshly, they arn't going to sacrifice their ability to push practical libertarian policies to go out on a limb for particular candidate who may or may not effect the ability to push further politices.

Conext guys, context, we can be a bit overly judgemental, if we're gonna win we got to think with clear minds and plan.

[Anti Federalist]

You didn't need to tone your rhetoric down to spare my feelings, now tell us how you really feel.

Just talking, that's all.

Nothing at all personal.

[NewRightLibertarian]

I've lost a lot of respect for CATO. I've seen them run blogs bashing Ron Paul, supporting the Federal Reserve and big government. I do not take them seriously anymore. They're out to protect the D.C. establishment that gives them a good amount of influence.

[Matt Collins]

CATO should be torpedoing Herman Cain, not calling him an "outsider" and "quite libertarian" on economic issues. I just don't think they've done as much research as we have around here about him heh. I'll drop him a line with out information.


It's David Boaz what do you expect...he's about as cosmotarian as it gets.

I like David, I consider him a friend. I've got a picture with him somewhere (and he was at Ron and Rand's swearing-in ceremony joking with us).

Have you read his book Libertarianism: A Primer? If not you should, it's a great read.


That's right. He was on Freedom Watch the other day bashing Ron Paul.

Video?

[Matt Collins]

I've lost a lot of respect for CATO. I've seen them run blogs bashing Ron Paul, supporting the Federal Reserve and big government. I do not take them seriously anymore. They're out to protect the D.C. establishment that gives them a good amount of influence.



REMEMBER: CATO is not Activist Organization, they are a policy think tank, their job is propose policy and build the relationships to have the policy enacted, being to judgemental of both parties would not satisfy their end.

The Mises institute and many other organizationg can take more hardline stances cause their mission is more to educate and organize than achieve policy ends.

Take CATOs role into context before you judge them to harshly, they arn't going to sacrifice their ability to push practical libertarian policies to go out on a limb for particular candidate who may or may not effect the ability to push further politices.

Conext guys, context, we can be a bit overly judgemental, if we're gonna win we got to think with clear minds and plan.

Exactly. Cato is aimed at changing policy, Mises is aimed at education. Two different animals.

Besides though, Cato is not monolithic. Not everyone inside the tank agrees on all issues with their fellow scholars.

[Matt Collins]

I think David was slightly biased in favor of GJ. He didn't address any of the negative performance image aspects of either GJ or RP, and he also didn't didn't mention how GJ's "alleged pro-abortion" stance could win a Republican primary.

That's ok though, I think the video got most of it right.

[sailingaway]

I've seen Cain referred to as 'Koch owned' and similar in comments. Don't know what it refers to, but if there is a connection, it would explain Cato's position.

[Imperial]

Down that road lies the tyranny of the efficient.

"No, I won't oppose these 'programs' because they violate core human liberties, are flagrantly unconstitutional, or lay the foundation for future tyrannies as yet unseen or unknown: No I'll just oppose them because they 'don't work'. Opposing them on purely philosophical grounds and being completely uncompromising, smacks of 'kookery'."

The work/extermination camps of NAZI Germany were models of "efficiency".

(Neg rep to the first person that mentions Godwin's Law - LOL)

That is some pretty massive strawman right there.

[sailingaway]

I've seen Cain referred to as 'Koch owned' and similar in comments. Don't know what it refers to, but if there is a connection, it would explain Cato's position.

Here, regarding Cain's relationship with the Kochs http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2011/03/on-koch-supported-herman-cain.html

[gls]

Wasn't CATO pushing Fred Thompson last time around? I do not trust them; they are much too cozy with the establishment (to the point of being part of it).

[Anti Federalist]

That is some pretty massive strawman right there.

Meh, more of a "softball" I think.