A question for the Osama death conspiracy theorists

[Jeremy]

If Osama was reported to be killed five years ago, would you believe that? How long after 9/11 would you believe that Osama was killed by the US?

[jmdrake]

If Osama was reported to be killed five years ago, would you believe that? How long after 9/11 would you believe that Osama was killed by the US?

When the government actually gave actual evidence of his death? When they produce a body or at least some photos that aren't obviously faked? Why does people asking for actual evidence bother you so much?

[Jeremy]

When the government actually gave actual evidence of his death? When they produce a body or at least some photos that aren't obviously faked? Why does people asking for actual evidence bother you so much?

The government didn't produce that faked photo. And unlike many here, I'm not jumping to conclussions. Why? Because he hasn't even been dead for half a day. What are we supposed to expect? His body dropped on ground zero for all to see?

[sirgonzo420]

Reports that he died in December 2001 circulated around the world on Wednesday, December 26, 2001.

[specsaregood]

If Osama was reported to be killed five years ago, would you believe that? How long after 9/11 would you believe that Osama was killed by the US?

IIRC, they reported him dead in 2003. The article is probably still up on foxnews.com.

[sirgonzo420]

The government didn't produce that faked photo. And unlike many here, I'm not jumping to conclussions. Why? Because he hasn't even been dead for half a day. What are we supposed to expect? His body dropped on ground zero for all to see?

The "showed off" Saddam....

I call bullshit on their latest propaganda.

[Jeremy]

IIRC, they reported him dead in 2003. The article is probably still up on foxnews.com.

A rumor in the media is not the same as the US government saying "we killed him and we have the body." That's the difference between a rumor and a conspiracy theory.

[sirgonzo420]

Reports that he died in December 2001 circulated around the world on Wednesday, December 26, 2001.


IIRC, they reported him dead in 2003. The article is probably still up on foxnews.com.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html

[jmdrake]

The government didn't produce that faked photo. And unlike many here, I'm not jumping to conclussions. Why? Because he hasn't even been dead for half a day. What are we supposed to expect? His body dropped on ground zero for all to see?

A consistent story? Pictures? This isn't 1927. It doesn't take 24 hours to develop photographs. There is no "conclusion" to jump to. There is simply the fact that so far the government has not proven that OBL was killed yesterday.

[Vessol]

Im a deathhhher

[jmdrake]

A rumor in the media is not the same as the US government saying "we killed him and we have the body." That's the difference between a rumor and a conspiracy theory.

Ah. The government says so therefore it must be true.

[Original_Intent]

Umm they freaking KILLED THE GUY but they are appeasing Muslims by burying him at sea (convenient) within 24 hours in respect of Muslim tradition? And anyone that questions that is a conspiracy theorist?

[Vessol]

To be fair, I can see the contrasting viewpoint.

If they did "show off" the body. People would equally just scream "fake" and such.

Jus' saying.

[specsaregood]

A rumor in the media is not the same as the US government saying "we killed him and we have the body." That's the difference between a rumor and a conspiracy theory.

except of course they don't have the body. so i guess it is still just a rumor.

[Jeremy]

A consistent story? Pictures? This isn't 1927. It doesn't take 24 hours to develop photographs. There is no "conclusion" to jump to. There is simply the fact that so far the government has not proven that OBL was killed yesterday.

Everyone is jumping to conclussions by saying it's a government conspiracy. Having a lack of evidence at the moment is one thing. Jumping to these conclussions is making a conspiracy theory.

[pcosmar]

If Osama was reported to be killed five years ago, would you believe that? How long after 9/11 would you believe that Osama was killed by the US?

Why would I believe that he was killed by the US at all?

I suspect that he died of natural causes and his body buried where it would not be found by his enemies.

[specsaregood]

Everyone is jumping to conclussions by saying it's a government conspiracy. Having a lack of evidence at the moment is one thing. Jumping to these conclussions is making a conspiracy theory.

all i know is if mccain was president and we really killed osama there wouldn't be any of this buried at sea crap. He'd still be marching around the WH with the head on a pike and on his way to escorting him to the gates of hell! -- unless of course he was too busy partying with the al-qaeda rebels in libya.

[libertyjam]

The government didn't produce that faked photo. And unlike many here, I'm not jumping to conclussions. Why? Because he hasn't even been dead for half a day. What are we supposed to expect? His body dropped on ground zero for all to see?

Hasn't been half a day, yet "they" claim that DNA has already been confirmed to be him.
http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/02/its-a-match-how-officials-used-dna-to-identify-bin-laden/
This is all so hilarious

[jmdrake]

Everyone is jumping to conclussions by saying it's a government conspiracy. Having a lack of evidence at the moment is one thing. Jumping to these conclussions is making a conspiracy theory.

:rolleyes: No. People have been saying that so far the government statement is unbelievable. Since the government story is unbelievable, you can draw whatever "conclusion" you want from that.

[Jeremy]

all i know is if mccain was president and we really killed osama there wouldn't be any of this buried at sea crap. He'd still be marching around the WH with the head on a pike and on his way to escorting him to the gates of hell! -- unless of course he was too busy partying with the al-qaeda rebels in libya.

Not everyone likes to celebrate death.

[specsaregood]

Not everyone likes to celebrate death.

coulda fooled me. sure looked like the WH endorsed the little death party outside the WH last night.

[low preference guy]

Everyone is jumping to conclussions by saying it's a government conspiracy. Having a lack of evidence at the moment is one thing. Jumping to these conclussions is making a conspiracy theory.


:rolleyes: No. People have been saying that so far the government statement is unbelievable. Since the government story is unbelievable, you can draw whatever "conclusion" you want from that.

i wouldn't try to reason with jmdrake on this. he is the utmost defender of conspiracy theories in the forum. birther, truther, deather. he's the perfect caricature of an alex jones fanatic.

[Jeremy]

:rolleyes: No. People have been saying that so far the government statement is unbelievable. Since the government story is unbelievable, you can draw whatever "conclusion" you want from that.

If the US government didn't kill Osama today, it would mean there was a conspiracy. It's that simple. Conspiracies are possible, but I'm not one to believe conspiracies until there is evidence. I wonder how hard it would be to keep all those people from not coming forward and saying "actually we didn't kill him." The same goes for the theory that the twin towers were blown up by the government.

[Anti Federalist]

If Osama was reported to be killed five years ago, would you believe that? How long after 9/11 would you believe that Osama was killed by the US?

<<<raspberries>>>

How long?

Never.

With government's track record, "they" could announce the sun rises in the east and the sky is blue and I'd question it.

[Brian4Liberty]

Im a deathhhher

I thought the new term was "Thawer". ;)

[jmdrake]

i wouldn't try to reason with jmdrake on this. he is the utmost defender of conspiracy theories in the forum. birther, truther, deather. he's the perfect caricature of an alex jones fanatic.

You're a perpetual dick. And you are what you eat.

[nate895]

Ah. The government says so therefore it must be true.

Not everything the government says is a lie. The government is innocent until proven guilty too. Of course, conspiracists don't like to believe that. The rule of law only applies to the head foreign terrorists organizations, not the President.

[jmdrake]

If the US government didn't kill Osama today, it would mean there was a conspiracy. It's that simple. Conspiracies are possible, but I'm not one to believe conspiracies until there is evidence. I wonder how hard it would be to keep all those people from not coming forward and saying "actually we didn't kill him." The same goes for the theory that the twin towers were blown up by the government.

Once again, the burden of proof is on the government. They have to come up with a consistent story and produce evidence. If you want to believe the official line without any evidence whatsoever...well that's just sad. Spin it as you want. Claim you aren't "jumping to conclusions". But in fact you have. You've jumped to the conclusion that a ridiculous cover story is believable.

[Cap]

You're a perpetual dick. And you are what you eat.

+Rep!

[jmdrake]

Not everything the government says is a lie. The government is innocent until proven guilty too. Of course, conspiracists don't like to believe that. The rule of law only applies to the head foreign terrorists organizations, not the President.

No. That's a disgusting twist of the Magna Charta and English common law. The government is not on trial here. The government has made a statement and it needs to back up its statement with evidence. That's all. Further if you've been accused of fraud the burden is actually on you to prove you were telling the truth. Ask Martha Stewart if you don't believe me.

[nate895]

Once again, the burden of proof is on the government. They have to come up with a consistent story and produce evidence. If you want to believe the official line without any evidence whatsoever...well that's just sad. Spin it as you want. Claim you aren't "jumping to conclusions". But in fact you have. You've jumped to the conclusion that a ridiculous cover story is believable.

If you want to come up with a conspiracy theory without any evidence whatsoever...well that's just sad.

[Vessol]

You're a perpetual dick. And you are what you eat.

i wouldn't try to reason with jmdrake on this. he is the utmost defender of conspiracy theories in the forum. birther, truther, deather. he's the perfect caricature of an alex jones fanatic.

Let's not turn this into ad hominem attacks.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

It doesn't matter if bin Laden was killed or not, or how, or when, or where, or by who he was killed. Things haven't changed. In the end, we don't have an American in office, birth cirtificate or not. We shouldn't lose our focus here. The first step, the most important thing we can do, far more important than killing Osama, is we got to get Obama out of office. This means doing more than just voting him out. We also need to use the courts and Congress to force him out as he may not want to leave.
WE KILLED OSAMA!
NOW LET'S DEFEAT OBAMA!

[TIMB0B]

Why would I believe that he was killed by the US at all?

I suspect that he died of natural causes and his body buried where it would not be found by his enemies.

This seems more plausible, because Bush would have certainly used this "dead Bin Laden" stuff to justify his wars.

[Vessol]

If you want to come up with a conspiracy theory without any evidence whatsoever...well that's just sad.

Conspiracy theories usually develop due to a lack of evidence. Whether they are true or not, well that comes with time I believe. I personally am sitting this one out.

Clearly people should not take the US Government at its word, that's just idiotic. But, I'm not going to try to theorize what really happened. Why? Because ultimately it's pretty pointless.

[nate895]

No. That's a disgusting twist of the Magna Charta and English common law. The government is not on trial here. The government has made a statement and it needs to back up its statement with evidence. That's all. Further if you've been accused of fraud the burden is actually on you to prove you were telling the truth. Ask Martha Stewart if you don't believe me.

Oh, so now we're to degenerate to the tyrants' level? Apply their standards to themselves? Sorry, my mother always taught me to be the bigger man. The government made a big deal about this, and the most reasonable explanation for Osama' death at this point is that US forces killed him in Pakistan approximately 24 hours ago. Until you come up with some evidence to prove otherwise, I have to go with the most reasonable explanation.

[jmdrake]

If you want to come up with a conspiracy theory without any evidence whatsoever...well that's just sad.

Oh put a sock in it nate! I haven't come up with a "theory". I've said the theory that's been put out so far does not make sense. What "theory" is that? What "conspiracy"? The story on what has happened to the body has changed at least three times. The only pictures released so far have been admitted by the mainstream media to be a fake. And the media initially started to run with those photos as if they were real. Goodness, I thought you had better since then to run with the ridiculous "If you question the evidence you must be stating a conspiracy theory" straw man.

[aGameOfThrones]

Oh, so now we're to degenerate to the tyrants' level? Apply their standards to themselves? Sorry, my mother always taught me to be the bigger man. The government made a big deal about this, and the most reasonable explanation for Osama' death at this point is that US forces killed him in Pakistan approximately 24 hours ago. Until you come up with some evidence to prove otherwise, I have to go with the most reasonable explanation.


Since when is the government reasonable? LOL

[nate895]

Conspiracy theories usually develop due to a lack of evidence. Whether they are true or not, well that comes with time I believe. I personally am sitting this one out.

Clearly people should not take the US Government at its word, that's just idiotic. But, I'm not going to try to theorize what really happened. Why? Because ultimately it's pretty pointless.

I think that there should be an investigation into the matter. However, the most reasonable explanation for the fact of Osama's death is that US special forces killed him yesterday in Pakistan at this point in time. I don't hold to it as if it were unquestionable, but at this point in time it is the most reasonable explanation.

[jmdrake]

Oh, so now we're to degenerate to the tyrants' level?

Did you not even read what I wrote? The government is NOT ON TRIAL so your whole argument is ridiculous! Really, it is. Using your "logic", if someone tried to sell you ocean front property in Tennessee, I shouldn't say anything because I haven't "proven in a court of law" that there is no ocean front property in Tennessee. Common nate. You can't be that dense. If you want to understand legalese, go to law school.

[juleswin]

i wouldn't try to reason with jmdrake on this. he is the utmost defender of conspiracy theories in the forum. birther, truther, deather. he's the perfect caricature of an alex jones fanatic.

Guilt by association. We all know since Alex Jones is a bafoon and he believes that 911 was a controlled demolishion, being a truther = Alex Jones = should not be reasoned with.

Count me down as a truther, deather. Theres no shame in demanding that your govt tell you the truth.

[aGameOfThrones]

Did you not even read what I wrote? The government is NOT ON TRIAL so your whole argument is ridiculous! Really, it is. Using your "logic", if someone tried to sell you ocean front property in Tennessee, I shouldn't say anything because I haven't "proven in a court of law" that there is no ocean front property in Tennessee. Common nate. You can't be that dense.

+rep

[juleswin]

You're a perpetual dick. And you are what you eat.

+1000

[nate895]

Did you not even read what I wrote? The government is NOT ON TRIAL so your whole argument is ridiculous! Really, it is. Using your "logic", if someone tried to sell you ocean front property in Tennessee, I shouldn't say anything because I haven't "proven in a court of law" that there is no ocean front property in Tennessee. Common nate. You can't be that dense. If you want to understand legalese, go to law school.

You want to put them up on trial for fraud. I mean, that's what it is when you come out and lie to the whole world: Fraud. I'm just saying that for now the best explanation of Osama's death is that special forces killed him yesterday. If there is an investigation and it is proven otherwise, then we can talk about conspiracy. If investigation efforts are refused, then we can start to talk about what the administration wants to hide. For the time being, it's pointless to go out and argue about this. Osama's dead, bring the troops home!

[thetruthhurtsthefed]

A consistent story? Pictures? This isn't 1927. It doesn't take 24 hours to develop photographs. There is no "conclusion" to jump to. There is simply the fact that so far the government has not proven that OBL was killed yesterday.

Then WHY would the president of the USA go on national TV and state that he ordered the go ahead for the house invasion and that his body is in US military possession?!! Draky you are reaching and searching way too hard. There is a lie here.

[JohnGalt1225]

I'm really at the point to where I'm not sure I believe anything the government says. They have a big burden of proof in my mind. Too much of the story doesn't add up. The nearly decade old reports of his demise in Dec. 2001, the way he was "dumped in the ocean," etc. They paraded around Saddam Hussein like they captured Satan himself. Yet they quietly dump Osama in the ocean? BS.

[aGameOfThrones]

Then WHY would the president of the USA go on national TV and state that he ordered the go ahead for the house invasion and that his body is in US military possession?!! Draky you are reaching and searching way too hard. There is a lie here.

Why would the U.S gov go to the U.N and say Iraq had WMDs?

[Romulus]

Umm they freaking KILLED THE GUY but they are appeasing Muslims by burying him at sea (convenient) within 24 hours in respect of Muslim tradition? And anyone that questions that is a conspiracy theorist?

Apparently, yes.

[nate895]

I'm really at the point to where I'm not sure I believe anything the government says. They have a big burden of proof in my mind. Too much of the story doesn't add up. The nearly decade old reports of his demise in Dec. 2001, the way he was "dumped in the ocean," etc. They paraded around Saddam Hussein like they captured Satan himself. Yet they quietly dump Osama in the ocean? BS.

Those were all unverified rumors. I take a Presidential press conference that interrupts the entire media at 11:30 PM on a Sunday night over rumors at the beginning of a war. Wars are filled with rumors.

[libertyjam]

I see that this current operation of Wag the Dog is working just wonderfully!

Was he killed yesterday, was he killed five years ago, did he have responsibility, did he deny having responsibility, it is all irrelevant!

The only thing relevant is that the PR has been played excellently! Big bonuses all around assured!

[moostraks]

If you want to come up with a conspiracy theory without any evidence whatsoever...well that's just sad.

Ever been involved in a bad relationship where the other party cheated on you or was a chronic liar? At some point you stop believing anything they say and question every story they come up with especially when said story sounds absolutely ridiculous in comparison to previous behavior AND said story has the habitual liar/cheater gain an enormous boost in reputation if you mindlessly accept it...

[aGameOfThrones]

I see that this current operation of Wag the Dog is working just wonderfully!

Was he killed yesterday, was he killed five years ago, did he have responsibility, did he deny having responsibility, it is all irrelevant!

The only thing relevant is that the PR has been played excellently! Big bonuses all around assured!

Why does the dog wag its tail?
Because the dog is smarter than the tail.
If the tail were smarter, it would wag the dog.

[JK/SEA]

Well, it is monday, so here is my monday morning quarterback spiel.

It would have been 'better' to have captured him alive, parade him around, have Katie Couric interview him, then put him on trial like in Nuremberg, then hang him. But hey, thats just me, what do i know.

[jmdrake]

You want to put them up on trial for fraud.

I never said put anyone on trial. I said that when someone is on trial for fraud they have to prove what they said was true. Anyway, I see you're problem is that you just aren't reading carefully. Try to do better.



I mean, that's what it is when you come out and lie to the whole world: Fraud. I'm just saying that for now the best explanation of Osama's death is that special forces killed him yesterday.

You're free to believe that. I'm free to point out that the story is starting to fall apart. I'm free to point out that the photos the media were using were fake, that the idea they buried the body at sea for the sake of Islam is patently ridiculous, and that the government needs to provide actual proof of OBL's death. But hey, if the government can just say anything without proof then there's no reason for a Ron Paul movement at all. The government can just say the bailouts were actually "needed" without proof. The wars were all justified without any WMDs. The government shouldn't have even looked for WMDs. They said it, that's good enough for you, I can't question it, we must accept it all as true.



If there is an investigation and it is proven otherwise, then we can talk about conspiracy.


LOL. Why would there even be an investigation if everybody is just going to follow your advice and assume it's all "true"? The only reason for the 9/11 commission was that people like Cynthia McKinney had the gall to ask the question "What did the administration know prior to 9/11?" The administration had said they didn't have any warnings (later proven to be a lie). Maybe everyone should have just followed your "logic" and not questioned and hence not even had a 9/11 commission (which was a whitewash anyway).



If investigation efforts are refused, then we can start to talk about what the administration wants to hide. For the time being, it's pointless to go out and argue about this. Osama's dead, bring the troops home!

There's no need for an investigation in the first place if everybody takes your advice and refuses to question because it hasn't been "proven". I mean don't you see how circular your reasoning is? There won't be an investigation unless somebody raises questions. But you think that questions shouldn't be raised until after there is an investigation. What a crock!

[libertyjam]

I just used that one on FB.

[jmdrake]

Then WHY would the president of the USA go on national TV and state that he ordered the go ahead for the house invasion and that his body is in US military possession?!! Draky you are reaching and searching way too hard. There is a lie here.

Please read the following quote from Hitler's propagandist and get back with me.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Joseph Goebbels

Obama isn't at all worried about getting "busted" because of people like you, Jeremy, LPG and Nate. He understands your psychology. Or rather his handlers do. Maybe the government will eventually come out with actual evidence. But to swallow this all hook line and sinker with out evidence is ridiculous.

[farrar]

I said it before and I will say it again.

Why are a few articles written by the news a decade ago more credible then a few articles and newscasts today?

Several of you who are skeptical, continue to cite new sources ten years ago as proof to why the news today is wrong. Then you move on to say people who believe the news are idiots... Honestly I agree.

There is nothing wrong with being skeptical, I am too... but the above error isn't being skeptical, it is being stupid.

Taking a source you believe is untrustworthy, and picking and choosing the parts that confirm your bias as truth, is not being an intelligent or articulate skeptic. It is being a bias ignoramus. It also says alot about your argument when it is based off of an article or fact produced by a source who has been wrong or has lied on everything else except the one point you mean to argue (how convenient?).

Alot of the skeptics here, are unnecessarily condemning their own argument, when they other wise might have had something tangible to offer to the conversation.

[nate895]

There's no need for an investigation in the first place if everybody takes your advice and refuses to question because it hasn't been "proven". I mean don't you see how circular your reasoning is? There won't be an investigation unless somebody raises questions. But you think that questions shouldn't be raised until after there is an investigation. What a crock!

You aren't questioning, you're assuming the government's account is false. There are questions about what happened. I assumed Osama was dead, I was totally shocked when I heard this. I have questions, but I am not assuming Obama stopped an otherwise calm Sunday night to lie to the entire world.

[jmdrake]

Well, it is monday, so here is my monday morning quarterback spiel.

It would have been 'better' to have captured him alive, parade him around, have Katie Couric interview him, then put him on trial like in Nuremberg, then hang him. But hey, thats just me, what do i know.

I'm not asking for that. I'm just asking for a decent picture that wasn't an obvious photoshop. Why is that so bad? :confused:

[PatriotOne]

i wouldn't try to reason with jmdrake on this. he is the utmost defender of conspiracy theories in the forum. birther, truther, deather. he's the perfect caricature of an alex jones fanatic.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/Yekt40/cons.jpg

[specsaregood]

I said it before and I will say it again.
Why are a few articles written by the news a decade ago more credible then a few articles and newscasts today?

Because he was suffering from kidney failure and was receiving dialysis a decade ago. Thats a long time to live on the run given those health factors.

[jmdrake]

You aren't questioning, you're assuming the government's account is false.

That is simply not true. I don't know if you're being obtuse or dense. I'm saying that the "burial at sea for Islamic purposes" makes no sense and the reports from mainstream Islamic scholars back me up. I'm saying the pictures released so far are fake and the mainstream media backs me up. I'm saying that the story has been changing ever few hours. There is no "assumption" being made on my part. I understand burdens of proof because I've actually gone to law school. That doesn't make me better than anyone else. It just means I can spot fake legalese like what you're throwing around quite easily. I assumed Obama was telling the truth just like you until they started spinning a story that makes absolutely no sense. Now what is the actual truth? I don't know. I have no "theory" on this. Maybe OBL was dead for years. Maybe he just recently died of natural causes and Pakistan turned the body over. Maybe OBL was blown up and there's no body left, but Obama knows that wouldn't fly so he came up with the "burial at sea" cover story. You can "assume" whatever conspiracy theory you want. But the facts are the facts. The "burial at sea for the sake of Islam" cover makes no sense. The pictures released so far are fakes. There's no reason why a clear photo has not already been released.

[Aratus]

Because he was suffering from kidney failure and was
receiving dialysis a decade ago. Thats a long time
to live on the run given those health factors.

if he was alive less than 72 hours ago,
he was beating the odds in a big way...

[JK/SEA]

I'm not asking for that. I'm just asking for a decent picture that wasn't an obvious photoshop. Why is that so bad? :confused:

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just giving my 2 cents separate from the current discussion. My statement has merit.

Please, carry on. Thankyou. Oh, and i agree its all BS, and none of its good for you.

[PatriotOne]

They threw the body in the ocean people. Not captured him and threw him in Guatanamo so they could extract information about things like where they planted all the nukes the Gov keeps warning us about. Not tried him for the crime of the century to prove to the world he did it. They claim they threw his body into the fucking ocean! REALLY? REALLY? REALLY!!??

[Aratus]

his health issues were such, someone else
seems to have been running al-qaeda...

[DisillusionedPatriot]

I have to agree totally with jmdrake. If an untrustworthy individual or group of individual wants to make a statement and have it be considered believable by reasonable men, he very well may be obliged to produce evidence. This has nothing to do with being "guilty" or the right to presumption of innocence. I have the right to refuse to take another man at his word, especially those men who have proven themselves to tell lies.

I believe that our government has found itself in such a situation. Like the boy who called "wolf!," they have so often added to and detracted from the truth, that it is not unlikely they would do so again. Further, because they have established their reputation as unreliable, they may not be believed when they are in fact telling the truth. This is particularly so when the news they announce is self-serving and congratulatory, as was yesterday's.

I do not really believe anything the government tells me, unless it has been verified by a source I consider reliable or if it fits well with what I perceive as other truths. Osama might very well be dead, but I certainly will not take the government's word for it. Nor do I think it is valid to criticize people who would seek to further enlighten the matter or question authority by demanding evidence rather than soothing assurances.

The White House was said to be "debating" whether or not to release the photos due to their "graphic nature." Give me a freaking break. I do not believe that Obama would fail to capitalize by releasing as much imagery and data as possible any more than I believe that American citizens need him to protect our innocence and naivety by shielding our eyes from the violence committed in our names, and with our money.

There are multiple inconsistencies in the official story. This, when combined with the lack of concrete proof, amounts to little more than "trust me," from a man you know you can't trust. Sometimes he will tell the truth, if it benefits him to do so. And even the best lies contain some truth to keep them believable.

The way I see it, whether Osama is dead or not is almost a moot point. I don't think it proves or affects very much either way. What is abundantly, patently clear, is that our government lies to us. Neither Bush nor Obama would have had any compunctions about killing Osama and/or faking his death later, provided they considered it politically expedient.

[DisillusionedPatriot]

Obama said it himself, "The only people who don't want to disclose the truth are people with something to hide." Why did they dispose if the body in the most difficult possible to retrieve fashion, and then, thus far, refuse to show evidence that supports their claims?

[jmdrake]

I have to agree totally with jmdrake. If an untrustworthy individual or group of individual wants to make a statement and have it be considered believable by reasonable men, he very well may be obliged to produce evidence. This has nothing to do with being "guilty" or the right to presumption of innocence. I have the right to refuse to take another man at his word, especially those men who have proven themselves to tell lies.

I believe that our government has found itself in such a situation. Like the boy who called "wolf!," they have so often added to and detracted from the truth, that it is not unlikely they would do so again. Further, because they have established their reputation as unreliable, they may not be believed when they are in fact telling the truth. This is particularly so when the news they announce is self-serving and congratulatory, as was yesterday's.

I do not really believe anything the government tells me, unless it has been verified by a source I consider reliable or if it fits well with what I perceive as other truths. Osama might very well be dead, but I certainly will not take the government's word for it. Nor do I think it is valid to criticize people who would seek to further enlighten the matter or question authority by demanding evidence rather than soothing assurances.

The White House was said to be "debating" whether or not to release the photos due to their "graphic nature." Give me a freaking break. I do not believe that Obama would fail to capitalize by releasing as much imagery and data as possible any more than I believe that American citizens need him to protect our innocence and naivety by shielding our eyes from the violence committed in our names, and with our money.

There are multiple inconsistencies in the official story. This, when combined with the lack of concrete proof, amounts to little more than "trust me," from a man you know you can't trust. Sometimes he will tell the truth, if it benefits him to do so. And even the best lies contain some truth to keep them believable.

The way I see it, whether Osama is dead or not is almost a moot point. I don't think it proves or affects very much either way. What is abundantly, patently clear, is that our government lies to us. Neither Bush nor Obama would have had any compunctions about killing Osama and/or faking his death later, provided they considered it politically expedient.

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later. Otherwise +1776. Thank you for putting this better than I could. We have a right not to automatically believe what is told us and a duty to be skeptical.

[aGameOfThrones]

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later. Otherwise +1776. Thank you for putting this better than I could. We have a right not to automatically believe what is told us and a duty to be skeptical.

I gave some rep in your place.

[Jeremy]

They threw the body in the ocean people. Not captured him and threw him in Guatanamo so they could extract information about things like where they planted all the nukes the Gov keeps warning us about. Not tried him for the crime of the century to prove to the world he did it. They claim they threw his body into the fucking ocean! REALLY? REALLY? REALLY!!??

Are you aware that he wasn't captured alive?

[PatriotOne]

Are you aware that he wasn't captured alive?

What are you implying? That he might be alive and in captivity?

[pcosmar]

Are you aware that he wasn't captured alive?

Nope.
The only story I have is given by people with NO Credibility at all.

I suspect he was dead long ago.

[Jeremy]

What are you implying? That he might be alive and in captivity?

I'm not sure how I would be implying that by saying, "Are you aware that he wasn't captured alive?".

[farrar]

Because he was suffering from kidney failure and was receiving dialysis a decade ago. Thats a long time to live on the run given those health factors.

I'm not arguing that for or against anything. Only that one source appears to be as good as another. For instance how do you know his kidney's were failing and he was on dialysis. Further more, how is that source more or less credible than the next. My point is, everyone seems to being giving their own source a get out of jail free card, because it confirms a personal belief or bias... or simply, its been around longer. Unfortunately longevity and bias does not equate to truth, and if we are going to submit to bias, we should at least recognize it.

[specsaregood]

I'm not arguing that for or against anything. Only that one source appears to be as good as another. For instance how do you know his kidney's were failing and he was on dialysis. Further more, how is that source more or less credible than the next. My point is, everyone seems to being giving their own source a get out of jail free card, because it confirms a personal belief or bias... or simply, its been around longer. Unfortunately longevity and bias does not equate to truth, and if we are going to submit to bias, we should at least recognize it.

Fair enough, but if those health conditions as reported are accurate, it would give more credibility to reports that he died a long time ago rather than this week, yes?

[jmdrake]

Are you aware that he wasn't captured alive?

And the reason for the order to not even attempt to capture the head of the Al Qaeda network was.......?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA

[PatriotOne]

I'm not sure how I would be implying that by saying, "Are you aware that he wasn't captured alive?".

Oh...it could have gone either way but now I see what you are saying. Are you implying that they couldn't capture him alive in some house if they so desired? At any rate the point is mute because none of this happened. He's been dead for a decade.

[Jeremy]

There was one report by someone from the Taliban a while ago that Obama died of natural causes. I guess people here trust an unnamed Taliban member and media rumors more than the President of the United States.


Oh...it could have gone either way but now I see what you are saying. Are you implying that they couldn't capture him alive in some house if they so desired? At any rate the point is mute because none of this happened. He's been dead for a decade.

It's much harder to capture someone alive. The mission was to capture him dead or alive. Let me remind you that this was in a heavily guarded area in the middle of Pakistan and Osama was trying to get away. And your last two sentences are nothing other than speculation.

[ClayTrainor]

I guess people here trust an unnamed Taliban member and media rumors more than the President of the United States.

Is there a legitimate reason to trust either, at this point?

[libertyjam]

There was one report by someone from the Taliban a while ago that Obama died of natural causes. I guess people here trust an unnamed Taliban member and media rumors more than the President of the United States.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkjsa0vvlq1qzu2tdo1_400.gif

[Jeremy]

And the reason for the order to not even attempt to capture the head of the Al Qaeda network was.......?

I'm starting to worry, because now you are ignoring facts. Because they DID try to capture him first.

[pcosmar]

There was one report by someone from the Taliban a while ago that Obama died of natural causes. I guess people here trust an unnamed Taliban member and media rumors more than the President of the United States.

well,,Yeah.

I would take the word of an unknown crackhead that has never lied to me before, rather that someone that has lied to me repeatedly.

[Jeremy]

Is there a legitimate reason to trust either, at this point?

well,,Yeah.

I would take the word of an unknown crackhead that has never lied tome before, rather that someone that has lied to me repeatedly.



Well if you can name some other people that Obama has claimed to have killed, but didn't actually, that would be some evidence that Obama (and his administration) is not reliable.

Certainly governments are often dishonest. But let's use common sense and not jump to conclussions.

[farrar]

Fair enough, but if those health conditions as reported are accurate, it would give more credibility to reports that he died a long time ago rather than this week, yes?

Yes absolutely.

[Cowlesy]

I'm going to give it a week for some incontrivertble proof to pop up before I entertain one thing or another. Scheuer seems to believe them, but my default is not "they're lying to us." Got too much other crap going on to be nashing teeth about Bin Laden like the Moneybomb.

[PatriotOne]

There was one report by someone from the Taliban a while ago that Obama died of natural causes. I guess people here trust an unnamed Taliban member and media rumors more than the President of the United States.



It's much harder to capture someone alive. LMAO!!! Trillions of $'s spent and you don't want to put the military to that much trouble? hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[pcosmar]

But let's use common sense and not jump to conclussions.
:confused:
Tell that to Pat Tillman's family.

Government Dishonesty is a foregone conclusion. No jump necessary.

I can not believe that you are a moderator on a Liberty forum and supporting Government Lies.
:(


America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government

[mczerone]

If you want to come up with a conspiracy theory without any evidence whatsoever...well that's just sad.

Evidence of blatant contradiction is probative of being told a lie.

I'm not saying that the Navy Seals didn't kill him this week, I'm just saying that the story is self-contradictory, and the timing of it just screams that it was all arranged. Something was needed to occupy and distract the populace after the Birther issue was defused, and lo and behold: a new story rife with misinformation, ulterior motives, drastic incentives to grow the state, and its being told to portray Obama as a key to the fight for America.

Don't believe everything you hear or read. No matter the source, even the most trustworthy can just be mistaken about the facts. And when it's the govt/MSM doing the dissemination, you better take the info with a whole pallet of salt.

[aGameOfThrones]

:confused:
Tell that to Pat Tillman's family.

Government Dishonesty is a foregone conclusion. No jump necessary.

I can not believe that you are a moderator on a Liberty forum and supporting Government Lies.
:(


Indeed.

[PatriotOne]

I'm going to give it a week for some incontrivertble proof to pop up before I entertain one thing or another. Scheuer seems to believe them, but my default is not "they're lying to us." Got too much other crap going on to be nashing teeth about Bin Laden like the Moneybomb.

Wait for Act 2 of this theater. It will become clearer when the reason why they are doing this comes into focus. Just hope there isn't any "Muslim Terrorist response" in this country.

[Jeremy]

:confused:
Tell that to Pat Tillman's family.

Government Dishonesty is a foregone conclusion. No jump necessary.

I can not believe that you are a moderator on a Liberty forum and supporting Government Lies.
:(
I'm not supporting government lies, because it's not a lie. :rolleyes:

I'll tell you something I don't support though: Considering speculation valid without evidence.

[jmdrake]

I'm starting to worry, because now you are ignoring facts. Because they DID try to capture him first.

Are you freaking kidding me?

Please click here. Then apologize.

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=Obama+kill+order+Osama

[aGameOfThrones]

Here's the gov's evidence http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkjsa0vvlq1qzu2tdo1_400.gif

[Brian4Liberty]

It's much harder to capture someone alive. The mission was to capture him dead or alive. Let me remind you that this was in a heavily guarded area in the middle of Pakistan and Osama was trying to get away.

I beleive this will be the true "conspiracy" issue. Already today, the story of how UBL was shot has changed. Heard on FOX just a little while ago that they went into the bedroom, there was Usama with his wife. They asked the wife, is this Usama, she said yes, they said surrender, he said no, they plugged him. No talk of him having a weapon in that story. Did they go in with no intent to capture? This would be a typical and realistic diversion from the facts that official government reports tend to have.

You avoid having to go through a trial if you plug him on sight...UBL probably asked for a lawyer before they shot him.

[Vessol]

I'm not supporting government lies, because it's not a lie. :rolleyes:

I'll tell you something I don't support though: Considering speculation valid without evidence.

But there is evidence that Usama bin Laden has been dead for years.

[PatriotOne]

Don't quit your day job Jeremy. Super slueth you are not.

[Galileo Galilei]

If Osama was reported to be killed five years ago, would you believe that? How long after 9/11 would you believe that Osama was killed by the US?

bin Laden died in late 2001. He was a sick man, in no shape to plant thermite inside WTC 7.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm not supporting government lies, because it's not a lie. :rolleyes:

I'll tell you something I don't support though: Considering speculation valid without evidence.

Government has presented numerous videos and audiotapes that supposedly were that of UBL, that have been shown to be fake.

[jmdrake]

There was one report by someone from the Taliban a while ago that Obama died of natural causes. I guess people here trust an unnamed Taliban member and media rumors more than the President of the United States.

It's much harder to capture someone alive. The mission was to capture him dead or alive. Let me remind you that this was in a heavily guarded area in the middle of Pakistan and Osama was trying to get away. And your last two sentences are nothing other than speculation.

Nope. The default position was to kill Osama Bin Laden. If he "waved a white flag" they might try to capture him, but the official word from the Obama administration was that this was a kill mission. You're trying so hard to defend the official story that you're going off script of the official story.

And lest you make the mistake again of falsely accusing me of being the one ignoring the facts:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-kill-idUSTRE74151S20110502
(Reuters) - U.S. special forces set out to kill Osama bin Laden and dump his body in the sea to make it harder for the al Qaeda founder to become a martyr, U.S. national security officials told Reuters on Monday.

Osama bin Laden

By Mark Hosenball

WASHINGTON | Mon May 2, 2011 1:10pm EDT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. special forces set out to kill Osama bin Laden and dump his body in the sea to make it harder for the al Qaeda founder to become a martyr, U.S. national security officials told Reuters on Monday.

"This was a kill operation," one of the officials said.

"If he had waved a white flag of surrender, he would have been taken alive," the official added. But the operating assumption among the U.S. raiders was that bin Laden would put up a fight -- which he did.

Bin Laden "participated" in a firefight between the U.S. commandos and residents of the fortified mansion near the Pakistani capital Islamabad where he had been hiding, the official said.

The official would not explicitly say whether bin Laden fired on the Americans, but confirmed that during the course of the 40-minute operation the U.S. team shot bin Laden in the head.

[mac_hine]

+ Rep

Well put.

[Brian4Liberty]

Bin Laden "participated" in a firefight between the U.S. commandos and residents of the fortified mansion near the Pakistani capital Islamabad where he had been hiding, the official said.

The official would not explicitly say whether bin Laden fired on the Americans, but confirmed that during the course of the 40-minute operation the U.S. team shot bin Laden in the head.[/i]

The part about Usama participating in a fire fight is already being disputed in the media.

[JohnGalt1225]

Those were all unverified rumors. I take a Presidential press conference that interrupts the entire media at 11:30 PM on a Sunday night over rumors at the beginning of a war. Wars are filled with rumors.
Oh, so since Obama said it, it's true. I assume since he told us Healthcare reform is good for the country he's right about that as well?

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

When the government actually gave actual evidence of his death? When they produce a body or at least some photos that aren't obviously faked? Why does people asking for actual evidence bother you so much?

Because asking for evidence just means you're a racist.

[brandon]

If Osama was reported to be killed five years ago, would you believe that? How long after 9/11 would you believe that Osama was killed by the US?

Why would I ever believe anything the US government says?

[JohnGalt1225]

I think some people here are misunderstanding some of our positions here. I don't claim to know when, where, or how Osama bin Laden died, if in fact he is, all I'm saying is the official government story doesn't add up. It's just such good timing for Obama, sagging poll numbers, rising gas prices, public sentiment slowly turning against our foreign policy, etc. Then, like a gift from god, Osama bin Laden's captured, now the media idiots are tripping all over themselves to redouble the GWOT efforts.

[tropicangela]

We won't be hearing from his wife or others present during the kill. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ivt4LyhJzqXFgshGZWOWwgDm22dA?docId=CNG.5ae30 97ac9c6854f3b91c0b67078c88f.141)


In addition to the woman, Bin Laden was killed by a bullet to the head and senior US officials said two brothers believed to be his couriers and one of his adult sons also perished in the raid.

[nobody's_hero]

If we'd had an honest government up until this point, I'd go out on a limb and believe that Osama bin Laden actually died in that strike.

Of course, we have not had an honest government in my lifetime, therefore . . .

[PatriotOne]

We won't be hearing from his wife or others present during the kill. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ivt4LyhJzqXFgshGZWOWwgDm22dA?docId=CNG.5ae30 97ac9c6854f3b91c0b67078c88f.141)

Of course not. Dead people can't contradict them. How handy.

[Bruno]

A rumor in the media is not the same as the US government saying "we killed him and we have the body." That's the difference between a rumor and a conspiracy theory.

You mean HAD the body. ;-)

[Mini-Me]

Not everything the government says is a lie. The government is innocent until proven guilty too. Of course, conspiracists don't like to believe that. The rule of law only applies to the head foreign terrorists organizations, not the President.

Nobody's saying to arrest and imprison government officials without a trial, let alone send in special forces armed to the teeth. ;) This is not a trial at all. It's a discussion of historical fact vs. fiction. Just because someone is considered innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law (i.e. should not have their rights trampled), that does not mean you should ignore a pattern of abuse and deception and "assume they're telling the truth" about whatever claim they make. Frankly, anything and everything the government says is suspect. Sometimes they're lying, and sometimes they're telling the truth (and usually it's somewhere convenient in between), but they do the former so often that they've earned the constant skepticism. That's a whole lot different from the summary judgment and sentencing that a presumption of innocence protects against.

...reading further though, I really should have just quoted jmdrake when he pointed out that this is not a trial (therefore the context is entirely different). As he also said, the burden of proof is on the government, given they've made a positive claim (finding Osama, killing him, etc.). You can tentatively believe them until they provide evidence (assume good faith), but until evidence is provided, it's foolish to have any real confidence in their story. "Take our word for it" doesn't really inspire the requisite confidence for responsible historians to record a claim as absolute fact.



Ever been involved in a bad relationship where the other party cheated on you or was a chronic liar? At some point you stop believing anything they say and question every story they come up with especially when said story sounds absolutely ridiculous in comparison to previous behavior AND said story has the habitual liar/cheater gain an enormous boost in reputation if you mindlessly accept it...

You are definitely one of my favorite posters...perhaps now I know why. :) You bring up perhaps the key difference between people who are trusting and people who have "seen it all." If institutions can have personality disorders just like people, the government has a severe case of NPD.

[Classical Liberal]

There is nothing wrong with being skeptical, I am too... but the above error isn't being skeptical, it is being stupid.

Taking a source you believe is untrustworthy, and picking and choosing the parts that confirm your bias as truth, is not being an intelligent or articulate skeptic. It is being a bias ignoramus. It also says alot about your argument when it is based off of an article or fact produced by a source who has been wrong or has lied on everything else except the one point you mean to argue (how convenient?).

Alot of the skeptics here, are unnecessarily condemning their own argument, when they other wise might have had something tangible to offer to the conversation.
It's refreshing to see actual intelligent people on RonPaulForums.

Any type of skepticism of official stories becomes toxic due to the incredulous ones who obnoxiously claim speculation as incontrovertible facts. The lack of critical thinking makes those who may be open to considering an alternative explanation numb to the idiocy of Internet activists. The result is that everything becomes ambiguous and obfuscated. The real truth isn't uncovered, it's merely diluted into oblivion between media & government propaganda and fantastical theorizing.

None of it is advancing the cause of liberty in the world. Most people in the real world don't care. For people who have worked in media & government, they realize how ridiculous the propositions are to suggest huge numbers of people are involved in a never ending list of conspiracies. More often than not, people believe they are doing the right thing. Ignorance and incompetence always trumps malicious acts.

We should be fighting for greater transparency and new investigations, not advocating forgone conclusions like they are absolutely true. Wait for the evidence one way or the other before assuming the most complex absurd explanation.

[KramerDSP]

There were two clinchers for the Americans, who by now had the Abbottabad compound under full-scale satellite and spy-plane surveillance, not to mention by CIA agents of Pakistani descent who had installed themselves in farm buildings in close proximity. They had even managed to smuggle a camera into the compound itself.

The CIA learned too that there was another family living with the couriers, and that the composition of this family matched Bin Laden’s.
The first solid evidence that the Al Qaeda leader was actually there came in the form of a recording of him speaking, picked up on a CIA microphone. The snippet was analysed and it matched previous recordings of his voice.

Then came a photograph taken of him inside the compound, an image so significant it was rushed straight to Barack Obama. On March 14, the President held the first of five top-secret meetings with his security advisers to discuss a raid.
Initially, he considered obliterating the compound with two B2 stealth bombers dropping more than a dozen 2,000lb devices. But when he was told the building would be reduced to rubble, he decided not to order the mission because he wanted to have Bin Laden’s body – and DNA samples – as firm proof he was dead.

It is also likely a bombing raid would have killed all 22 people living there, including women and children, plus innocent neighbours in the built-up area.
The far more daring operation was given the go-ahead last Friday morning, as the world’s attention was on the royal wedding in London, and Bin Laden’s fate was finally sealed.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382860/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-How-Navy-Seals-killed-Al-Qaeda-chief-near-Islamabad.html#ixzz1LFZrZ4c8

Hell, if they show THIS photo, I'm satisfied.

[VBRonPaulFan]

doesn't even a basic dna test take at least 72 hours to complete? if usama was killed 24 hours ago... it's pretty unreasonable for them to say they've already matched his dna, isn't it?

edit: 72 hours was the shortest time period i could find anyone talking about when i googled it... most places said at least 3 days.

[South Park Fan]

Unlike others, I do not claim to know exactly what happened to Osama bin Laden. All I advocate is that the story put out by the government be taken with a grain of salt.

[MelissaWV]

The administration is not helping its case.


Skepticism could only increase in some quarters if the Obama administration declines to release photos of bin Laden's body. No decision has yet been made on that question, according to White House counter-terror adviser John Brennan, who said this afternoon that doing so could jeopardize future operations.

What future operations, if it's a picture of a dead Bin Laden?

[VBRonPaulFan]

The administration is not helping its case.



What future operations, if it's a picture of a dead Bin Laden?

the terrorists don't know yet :rolleyes:

[Petar]

Oh, how cute, Jerbear still believes that his government is trustworthy...don't be surprised when the Easter Bunny rapes you.

[jonhowe]

If he's still alive, don't you think he'd say something?

Whatever you think about him, he's certainly not coy.

[Aldanga]

doesn't even a basic dna test take at least 72 hours to complete? if usama was killed 24 hours ago... it's pretty unreasonable for them to say they've already matched his dna, isn't it?

edit: 72 hours was the shortest time period i could find anyone talking about when i googled it... most places said at least 3 days.
Supposedly it can be done within about 5 hours (http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=how-do-you-id-a-dead-osama-anyway-2011-05-02) if you have the necessary tools set up and ready.

[rnestam]

It's refreshing to see actual intelligent people on RonPaulForums.

Any type of skepticism of official stories becomes toxic due to the incredulous ones who obnoxiously claim speculation as incontrovertible facts. The lack of critical thinking makes those who may be open to considering an alternative explanation numb to the idiocy of Internet activists. The result is that everything becomes ambiguous and obfuscated. The real truth isn't uncovered, it's merely diluted into oblivion between media & government propaganda and fantastical theorizing.

None of it is advancing the cause of liberty in the world. Most people in the real world don't care. For people who have worked in media & government, they realize how ridiculous the propositions are to suggest huge numbers of people are involved in a never ending list of conspiracies. More often than not, people believe they are doing the right thing. Ignorance and incompetence always trumps malicious acts.

We should be fighting for greater transparency and new investigations, not advocating forgone conclusions like they are absolutely true. Wait for the evidence one way or the other before assuming the most complex absurd explanation.

What a great post. To be honest I would have to say I am a truther, but I am critical with it here on the forums. You need to be cautious, if you get into the habit of questioning everything, like in a good poker game, you will get trapped. Imagine RP triumphed some of the questioning here only to have the helmet cam vids be released days before the election? Also, it becomes almost hannity/Maddow like were the people you are preaching to will consider your arguments less and less. If you question everything like building 7, you only end up diluting that argument in the end. The votes we need spend very little time reading politics, never mind fingering through piles of evidence that OBL died 4 years ago...

[jmdrake]

What a great post. To be honest I would have to say I am a truther, but I am critical with it here on the forums. You need to be cautious, if you get into the habit of questioning everything, like in a good poker game, you will get trapped. Imagine RP triumphed some of the questioning here only to have the helmet cam vids be released days before the election? Also, it becomes almost hannity/Maddow like were the people you are preaching to will consider your arguments less and less. If you question everything like building 7, you only end up diluting that argument in the end. The votes we need spend very little time reading politics, never mind fingering through piles of evidence that OBL died 4 years ago...

I'm sorry, but who exactly said RP should come out and say anything about this? Most people are simply pointing out the fact, yes fact that the administration has not met its burden of proof for it's claim that it has bagged OBL. The official story stinks to high heaven. Ones you realize that the door is open for all sorts of things. I've seen plausible arguments that don't fit into the "The government made it all up" camp, but the "They really did it this way not to offend the Muslims" is just hogwash.

[rnestam]

I'm sorry, but who exactly said RP should come out and say anything about this? Most people are simply pointing out the fact, yes fact that the administration has not met its burden of proof for it's claim that it has bagged OBL. The official story stinks to high heaven. Ones you realize that the door is open for all sorts of things. I've seen plausible arguments that don't fit into the "The government made it all up" camp, but the "They really did it this way not to offend the Muslims" is just hogwash.
I agree 100 percent...and a good discussion about it is great. But some take it to far and yell to loud to the point I have stopped recommending people come read these forums to get to know RP's policies in depth because of the intense "truthing"...again, I am one but it is a losing angle for votes.

And you may not have said it, but many here would cream if RP came out for a building 7 investigation during a debate.

[Peace&Freedom]

It's refreshing to see actual intelligent people on RonPaulForums.

Any type of skepticism of official stories becomes toxic due to the incredulous ones who obnoxiously claim speculation as incontrovertible facts. The lack of critical thinking makes those who may be open to considering an alternative explanation numb to the idiocy of Internet activists. The result is that everything becomes ambiguous and obfuscated. The real truth isn't uncovered, it's merely diluted into oblivion between media & government propaganda and fantastical theorizing.

None of it is advancing the cause of liberty in the world. Most people in the real world don't care. For people who have worked in media & government, they realize how ridiculous the propositions are to suggest huge numbers of people are involved in a never ending list of conspiracies. More often than not, people believe they are doing the right thing. Ignorance and incompetence always trumps malicious acts.

We should be fighting for greater transparency and new investigations, not advocating forgone conclusions like they are absolutely true. Wait for the evidence one way or the other before assuming the most complex absurd explanation.

This is an example of the incoherent presumption performed by the self-serving debunkers. If the GOVERNMENT issues an absurd explanation without evidence, we must take it on good faith. If people dissent from the government's explanation and are REQUESTING the evidence, its a "toxic conspiracy theory." No matter if the evidence is present or is absent, the debunkers define the "official" explanation as the the rational or "likely one" on face value, and dissent as the one "lacking evidence." With such self-serving pre-positioning of every situation in these terms, no wonder the truth is "merely diluted into oblivion."

The technique of presupposing the official view is superior seems to NEVER distinguish between government positions that were supported by unimpeachable evidence, vs. those that are just absurd explanations with out evidence. Nor does it discriminate between alternative views that have been strongly documented and those that are solely speculation. The government's story is "reasonable" one, the other side is the baseless "conspiracy." Sources like Alex Jones are attacked the most, even though the whole basis of his case for conspiracy revolves around government admissions (released documents and officials' statements) and major media news stories. The facts don't matter, if they are cited to support alternative views. The facts only matter if the government claims them, with or without evidence.

Of course, the baseless presumptions made by the pro-official side is always supposed to be accepted without proof. One of the clearest examples of this is the "For people who have worked in media & government, they realize how ridiculous the propositions are to suggest huge numbers of people are involved in a never ending list of conspiracies" (Hmmm, I have worked in the media and the government, does my support of conspiracy count?). Notice this notion is always presented as self-evident, on face value without needing proof. Any attempt by the alternative side to say something is just as self-evident is constantly confronted, and contentiously derided. Likewise the "ignorance and incompetence always trumps malicious acts" canard is believed whether the facts support the former or the latter.

The cause of liberty is not advancing because so many people who dislike everything big government is, prefer to trust almost everything it says. They may be libertarians who oppose the monopoly the state tries to impose over our freedoms, but they are authoritarians when it comes to accepting the state's monopoly over the facts. Until a CONSISTENT approach to accepting and respecting the evidentiary basis for viewpoints is practiced by the debunkers, and they learn to actually call a GOVERNMENT explanation "absurd," they are the ones "advocating forgone conclusions like they are absolutely true." They should be receptive of the evidence already presented by the other side, instead of resting on the latest official story as the default truth.

[Anti Federalist]

^^^^

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

[Depressed Liberator]

This used to be a great forum for intellectual, libertarian leaning discussion. Now it just feels like some Alex Jones website. Nothing can be believed anymore, evidently. A conspiracy theory from seven or eight years ago that was never even given any substantial proof to be correct? Very believable. An official report that was released a day ago with developing aspects to it that demand a little time before all information comes out? COMPLETE AND UTTER BULL SHIT IT'S A GOVERNMENT COVER UP EVERYONE PUT ON YOUR TIN FOIL CAPS!!!

[rnestam]

This is an example of the incoherent presumption performed by the self-serving debunkers. If the GOVERNMENT issues an absurd explanation without evidence, we must take it on good faith. If people dissent from the government's explanation and are REQUESTING the evidence, its a "toxic conspiracy theory." No matter if the evidence is present or is absent, the debunkers define the "official" explanation as the the rational or "likely one" on face value, and dissent as the one "lacking evidence." With such self-serving pre-positioning of every situation in these terms, no wonder the truth is "merely diluted into oblivion."

The technique of presupposing the official view is superior seems to NEVER distinguish between government positions that were supported by unimpeachable evidence, vs. those that are just absurd explanations with out evidence. Nor does it discriminate between alternative views that have been strongly documented and those that are solely speculation. The government's story is "reasonable" one, the other side is the baseless "conspiracy." Sources like Alex Jones are attacked the most, even though the whole basis of his case for conspiracy revolves around government admissions (released documents and officials' statements) and major media news stories. The facts don't matter, if they are cited to support alternative views. The facts only matter if the government claims them, with or without evidence.

Of course, the baseless presumptions made by the pro-official side is always supposed to be accepted without proof. One of the clearest examples of this is the "For people who have worked in media & government, they realize how ridiculous the propositions are to suggest huge numbers of people are involved in a never ending list of conspiracies" (Hmmm, I have worked in the media and the government, does my support of conspiracy count?). Notice this notion is always presented as self-evident, on face value without needing proof. Any attempt by the alternative side to say something is just as self-evident is constantly confronted, and contentiously derided. Likewise the "ignorance and incompetence always trumps malicious acts" canard is believed whether the facts support the former or the latter.

The cause of liberty is not advancing because so many people who dislike everything big government is, prefer to trust almost everything it says. They may be libertarians who oppose the monopoly the state tries to impose over our freedoms, but they are authoritarians when it comes to accepting the state's monopoly over the facts. Until a CONSISTENT approach to accepting and respecting the evidentiary basis for viewpoints is practiced by the debunkers, and they learn to actually call a GOVERNMENT explanation "absurd," they are the ones "advocating forgone conclusions like they are absolutely true." They should be receptive of the evidence already presented by the other side, instead of resting on the latest official story as the default truth.

Yes the government lies, but so do truthers. Again, I am in that camp. But to wait for news to happen, then change the news with no more evidence other than the government can't be trusted is just as ridiculous. And then to say those who believe the news and not you are robotic sheep that just don't see is retarded. That would be like me never again believing you because at one point you said as fact that the planes on 9/11 fired missiles a millisecond before impact. Then just rewriting every story you told right after you told me with that as my proof. You have the advantage of throwing darts and only needing one to hit while the "news" just has to slip once on a fact to be PROOF OF LIES everywhere! Seriously, I'm half with you, but don't label people sheep because they don't worship alex jones....talk about throwing darts.......Osama frozen for years? Was that the latest?

[rnestam]

This used to be a great forum for intellectual, libertarian leaning discussion. Now it just feels like some Alex Jones website. Nothing can be believed anymore, evidently. A conspiracy theory from seven or eight years ago that was never even given any substantial proof to be correct? Very believable. An official report that was released a day ago with developing aspects to it that demand a little time before all information comes out? COMPLETE AND UTTER BULL SHIT IT'S A GOVERNMENT COVER UP EVERYONE PUT ON YOUR TIN FOIL CAPS!!!

Amen.

[Anti Federalist]

This used to be a great forum for intellectual, libertarian leaning discussion. Now it just feels like some Alex Jones website. Nothing can be believed anymore, evidently. A conspiracy theory from seven or eight years ago that was never even given any substantial proof to be correct? Very believable. An official report that was released a day ago with developing aspects to it that demand a little time before all information comes out? COMPLETE AND UTTER BULL SHIT IT'S A GOVERNMENT COVER UP EVERYONE PUT ON YOUR TIN FOIL CAPS!!!

Oh nonsense.

Most of the "skeptics" you are complaining about, myself included, have been here all along.

[Aldanga]

I'm more than willing to believe that Osama was killed on the 1st. However, as a scientist I want to be given actual evidence that it happened rather than the word of the government—the same government which, as a rule, I doubt until proven. The whole situation seems far too convenient to me. Having knowledge about government fabrications such as the Gulf of Tonkin—which was accepted on the authority of the government and resulted in the deaths of 60k US personnel—heavily influence these thoughts as well.

Given what I understand about human nature, I would not put it past any man in power to flatly lie to 300 million people in order to maintain his power. That is why I always doubt.

“If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.” -René Descartes

[rnestam]

I was much more of a "skeptic" in 2008, and I don't remember it being as "AJ" I guess you could it. I could be wrong, but I rarely go a day without coming here over last 4 years and never felt like this was a problem....

[rnestam]

I'm more than willing to believe that Osama was killed on the 1st. However, as a scientist I want to be given actual evidence that it happened rather than the word of the government—the same government which, as a rule, I doubt until proven. The whole situation seems far too convenient to me. Having knowledge about government fabrications such as the Gulf of Tonkin—which was accepted on the authority of the government and resulted in the deaths of 60k US personnel—heavily influence these thoughts as well.

Given what I understand about human nature, I would not put it past any man in power to flatly lie to 300 million people in order to maintain his power. That is why I always doubt.

“If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.” -René Descartes

Awesome post. And it is why we are here (fed, wars, etc..) But I guess the main argument is pushing too hard on things like 9/11, killing of Osama...they may be great questions there, and best way to get them answered is to get RP elected, but holding 9/11 was an inside job or maybe now "where is the body" signs at debates will PREVENT that from happening. I am 100 percent sure this shit will bite us if we start to win, and there will be exact people to blame for it.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

It's refreshing to see actual intelligent people on RonPaulForums.

Any type of skepticism of official stories becomes toxic due to the incredulous ones who obnoxiously claim speculation as incontrovertible facts. The lack of critical thinking makes those who may be open to considering an alternative explanation numb to the idiocy of Internet activists. The result is that everything becomes ambiguous and obfuscated. The real truth isn't uncovered, it's merely diluted into oblivion between media & government propaganda and fantastical theorizing.

None of it is advancing the cause of liberty in the world. Most people in the real world don't care. For people who have worked in media & government, they realize how ridiculous the propositions are to suggest huge numbers of people are involved in a never ending list of conspiracies. More often than not, people believe they are doing the right thing. Ignorance and incompetence always trumps malicious acts.

We should be fighting for greater transparency and new investigations, not advocating forgone conclusions like they are absolutely true. Wait for the evidence one way or the other before assuming the most complex absurd explanation.

And, yet, according to our Founders, there does exist absolute self evident and inalienable truths. Sorry, the modern method of science you proclaim is the same one that has abandoned the American people and their Civil Purpose. I have written many writs on this subject challenging the European thinkers in here and the modern science that came out of that old world they so cherish while, at the same time, arguing that the United States needs to break away and develop its own metaphysical science.
Below are some of my conclusions to challenge the present status quo that modern science claims:

1) Contrary to the old world, the purpose of creation isn't to know and reproduce, but it is to see God and to do so in ever greater quality. Therefore, every part of creation exists either as a sense organ or was at one time a sense organ that is now in a state of rudimentation.
(In other words, as sense organs wither away in a state of rudimentation, they evolve into secondary characteristics like fingers, hands, and arms for the purpose of helping improve the quality of the remaining sense organs. As other sense organs withered, they also evolved into advanced brains to help improve the quality of the sense organs.)
2) (2+0)1/2 or As all things attract together, no things contact but a force. This is a metaphysical conclusion. Physics reduces down to this number (concept): (2+0)1/2. All phenomenon, an infinite potential, is possible between the sums of 2 and 0 oscillated. The sum is 1.

[MelissaWV]

This used to be a great forum for intellectual, libertarian leaning discussion. Now it just feels like some Alex Jones website. Nothing can be believed anymore, evidently. A conspiracy theory from seven or eight years ago that was never even given any substantial proof to be correct? Very believable. An official report that was released a day ago with developing aspects to it that demand a little time before all information comes out? COMPLETE AND UTTER BULL SHIT IT'S A GOVERNMENT COVER UP EVERYONE PUT ON YOUR TIN FOIL CAPS!!!

Funny, I've been basing my skepticism on precisely what the Government has released. Do you believe they will, at some point, retract the story about burial at sea "according to Muslim law"? How about the photos and videos that the Government has released so far... will they say "oops, those were the wrong pictures"? The body count is changing frequently, and that part is developing, but why? There was such a quick confirmation on Osama's death... why no mention of what from the pictures looks like a brave raid on a house where women and children were also sleeping?

None of that requires a tinfoil hat. It merely requires wondering what the hell is going on, and it's not just "Alex Jones types" questioning why the official story is how it is.

[MelissaWV]

Awesome post. And it is why we are here (fed, wars, etc..) But I guess the main argument is pushing too hard on things like 9/11, killing of Osama...they may be great questions there, and best way to get them answered is to get RP elected, but holding 9/11 was an inside job or maybe now "where is the body" signs at debates will PREVENT that from happening. I am 100 percent sure this shit will bite us if we start to win, and there will be exact people to blame for it.

So some "conspiracies" are more equal than others ;) There are many who'd call all this silliness about the Fed being a privately-owned bank, or all this inflation talk, conspiracy theorist Alex Jones mumbo jumbo. There are some who'd say anyone who believes we went to war over anything but spreading democracy, avenging 9/11, and finding WMDs, is a wackyjob.

That's not to say I'm one of those "holograms did 9/11!" people, but be careful lobbing those stones from inside your glass house.

[thedude]

Conspiracy theories usually develop due to a lack of evidence. Whether they are true or not, well that comes with time I believe. I personally am sitting this one out.

Clearly people should not take the US Government at its word, that's just idiotic. But, I'm not going to try to theorize what really happened. Why? Because ultimately it's pretty pointless.

+rep

[Travlyr]

This is an example of the incoherent presumption performed by the self-serving debunkers. If the GOVERNMENT issues an absurd explanation without evidence, we must take it on good faith. If people dissent from the government's explanation and are REQUESTING the evidence, its a "toxic conspiracy theory." No matter if the evidence is present or is absent, the debunkers define the "official" explanation as the the rational or "likely one" on face value, and dissent as the one "lacking evidence." With such self-serving pre-positioning of every situation in these terms, no wonder the truth is "merely diluted into oblivion."

The technique of presupposing the official view is superior seems to NEVER distinguish between government positions that were supported by unimpeachable evidence, vs. those that are just absurd explanations with out evidence. Nor does it discriminate between alternative views that have been strongly documented and those that are solely speculation. The government's story is "reasonable" one, the other side is the baseless "conspiracy." Sources like Alex Jones are attacked the most, even though the whole basis of his case for conspiracy revolves around government admissions (released documents and officials' statements) and major media news stories. The facts don't matter, if they are cited to support alternative views. The facts only matter if the government claims them, with or without evidence.

Of course, the baseless presumptions made by the pro-official side is always supposed to be accepted without proof. One of the clearest examples of this is the "For people who have worked in media & government, they realize how ridiculous the propositions are to suggest huge numbers of people are involved in a never ending list of conspiracies" (Hmmm, I have worked in the media and the government, does my support of conspiracy count?). Notice this notion is always presented as self-evident, on face value without needing proof. Any attempt by the alternative side to say something is just as self-evident is constantly confronted, and contentiously derided. Likewise the "ignorance and incompetence always trumps malicious acts" canard is believed whether the facts support the former or the latter.

The cause of liberty is not advancing because so many people who dislike everything big government is, prefer to trust almost everything it says. They may be libertarians who oppose the monopoly the state tries to impose over our freedoms, but they are authoritarians when it comes to accepting the state's monopoly over the facts. Until a CONSISTENT approach to accepting and respecting the evidentiary basis for viewpoints is practiced by the debunkers, and they learn to actually call a GOVERNMENT explanation "absurd," they are the ones "advocating forgone conclusions like they are absolutely true." They should be receptive of the evidence already presented by the other side, instead of resting on the latest official story as the default truth.

Well said.
+rep

Killing Osama bin Laden and disposing of his body before independent councils had the opportunity to verify the facts surrounding the case has effectively further divided the people. Divide and conquer tactics are alive and thriving.

[thedude]

"My dick is bigger"
......"I agree his dick is bigger"
"No, my dick is bigger!"
...... "He's right cuz his is bigger"
"If Obama said your dick was bigger, than obviously my dick is bigger"
...... "Your argument is valid, you have the bigger dick"
"Well, you don't have any reason to question my dick is bigger, so my dick is bigger"
...... "Your dick is tiny... needle dick, needle dick"
"You don't have any video or photo evidence, so mine is bigger"
...... " + rep, you certainly have the bigger dick"
"Nuh uh, I can't release the photo cuz others will be mad, but my dick is bigger"
...... "I don't have a dick, but if I did....it'd be bigger"
"Your photo is fake cuz it shows your dick clearly bigger, I don't believe it!"
...... "hahaha, let's just whip ours out and be done with this, why wont he take his dick out?"
"I never took a photo, that was debunked, so my dick is bigger"
...... "you failed to provide a picture with this post, fail. my dick is bigger"

Meanwhile in the Liberty Forest^

[moostraks]

You are definitely one of my favorite posters...perhaps now I know why. :) You bring up perhaps the key difference between people who are trusting and people who have "seen it all." If institutions can have personality disorders just like people, the government has a severe case of NPD.

:o Thanks! The feeling is mutual. "Only part of us can learn by other people’s experiences.The rest of us have to be the other people." I am the part that learned the hard way :) which has made me quite jaded.

I second the vote for the government having NPD. People would be well served to look into how to handle themselves when it comes to dealing with people with this disorder as it is very similar to dealing with both government individuals and agencies.

[jmdrake]

I agree 100 percent...and a good discussion about it is great. But some take it to far and yell to loud to the point I have stopped recommending people come read these forums to get to know RP's policies in depth because of the intense "truthing"...again, I am one but it is a losing angle for votes.

And you may not have said it, but many here would cream if RP came out for a building 7 investigation during a debate.

LOL at your last sentence.

As for sending people here to learn about Ron Paul's views why on earth would you do something crazy like that? Seriously. Take out all of the birther/truther/deather stuff and you still have:

* Folks attacking Martin Luther King Jr. like he was the worst demon from hell next to Abraham Lincoln
* Folks claiming that south did no wrong leading up to or during the civil war
* Atheists hating on Christians
* Christians hating on atheists
* Fist pumping for anti establishment nut jobs like Joe Scott who "stick it to the man"
* "Serious" debates on child porn and underage sex
* Pornstars for Paul (although this might actually gain more votes than it loses)

the list goes on. Seriously there is no way to make RPF "clean and respectable for the masses". During 2007/2008 someone had most of all of Ron Paul's positions at ronpaullibrary.org. Sadly that was recently taken down. :( (You can still reach it through the web archive.[1] :) ) Or better yet, send people to Ron Paul's official website RonPaul2012.org. This is an activist website and people who are already in the movement should come here. At least that's my view.

[1] See: http://replay.web.archive.org/20101005173223/http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/

[rnestam]

LOL at your last sentence.

As for sending people here to learn about Ron Paul's views why on earth would you do something crazy like that? Seriously. Take out all of the birther/truther/deather stuff and you still have:

* Folks attacking Martin Luther King Jr. like he was the worst demon from hell next to Abraham Lincoln
* Folks claiming that south did no wrong leading up to or during the civil war
* Atheists hating on Christians
* Christians hating on atheists
* Fist pumping for anti establishment nut jobs like Joe Scott who "stick it to the man"
* "Serious" debates on child porn and underage sex
* Pornstars for Paul (although this might actually gain more votes than it loses)

the list goes on. Seriously there is no way to make RPF "clean and respectable for the masses". During 2007/2008 someone had most of all of Ron Paul's positions at ronpaullibrary.org. Sadly that was recently taken down. :( (You can still reach it through the web archive.[1] :) ) Or better yet, send people to Ron Paul's official website RonPaul2012.org. This is an activist website and people who are already in the movement should come here. At least that's my view.

[1] See: http://replay.web.archive.org/20101005173223/http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/

Yeah, your right...I guess me bitching is more based on the fact most people here have already looked into this shit and am sick of seeing thermite posts as if it's some "break news" report. I'm gonna put away my bitching hat now...my apologies.

[rnestam]

And, yet, according to our Founders, there exist absolute self evident and inalienable truths. Sorry, the modern method of science you proclaim is the same one that has abandoned the American people and their Civil Purpose. I have written many writs on this subject challenging the European thinkers in here and the modern science that came out of that old world while arguing that the United States needs to break away from it and develop its own metaphysical science.
Below are some of my conclusions to challenge the present status quo as modern science claims they exist:

1) Contrary to the old world, the purpose of creation isn't to know and reproduce, but to see God and do so better and better. Therefore, every part of creation exists either as a sense organ or was at one time a sense organ that is now in a state of rudimentation.
(In other words, as sense organs wither away in the state of rudimentation, they evolve into fingers, hands, and arms to help improve the quality of the sense organs. As sense organs withered, they also evolved into advanced brains to help improve the quality of the sense organs.)
2) (2+0)1/2 or As all things attract together, no things contact but a force. This is a metaphysical conclusion. Physics reduces down to this number: (2+0)1/2. All phenomenon, an infinite potential, is possible between the sums of 2 and 0 oscillated. The sum is 1.

"Rachmaninoff"

[WyoLiberty]

Dead or alive - it doesn't matter - was it worth the death of thousands of soldiers and countless civilian deaths? I say no. The USGOV still went to war against a terrorist faction by attacking the country they happened to reside. Too much collateral damage via the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, ad nauseum. I don't care if he's dead, been dead or still alive...it did not justify the death of thousands and destruction of liberty. "They" are trying to justify their existence and spread eternal war against "terrorism"... back to work folks, liberty needs defended and restored...ignore the circus on the msm...back to work...

[BlackTerrel]

A consistent story? Pictures? This isn't 1927. It doesn't take 24 hours to develop photographs. There is no "conclusion" to jump to. There is simply the fact that so far the government has not proven that OBL was killed yesterday.

You think posting pictures of Osama with a thousand holes in his body would be a good move for the US? Or maybe Alex Jones should perform an autopsy.

[jmdrake]

You think posting pictures of Osama with a thousand holes in his body would be a good move for the US? Or maybe Alex Jones should perform an autopsy.

Fine. SHOW THE STINKING CAMERA VIDEO THAT WAS TAKEN BY THE SEALS AND CUT IT OFF RIGHT BEFORE OBL GETS SHOT! Really, this is ridiculous. I know you have a fear of questioning the government under any circumstances, but at some point there has to be some sort of accountability. Really, even if you accept this story as "true" (and the idea that his body had to be dumped at sea to appease Islam has been totally debunked at this point), from the standpoint of decapitating Al Qaeda the U.S. must provide real confirmation that OBL is killed. Otherwise Al Qaeda can just claim he's still alive, release a new tape every few months just like Tupac Shakur, and keep the whole enterprise running unabated.

[juleswin]

You think posting pictures of Osama with a thousand holes in his body would be a good move for the US? Or maybe Alex Jones should perform an autopsy.

Why should he even have thousands of bullets. The man is old and suffering from a lot ailments, all you need to do is cut him on the wrist and hes dead. With a sensitive target like him I would like to assume that the SEAL team took care not to fill him up with bullets onces hes dead even just to make him easier to ID. The real world is not a video game.

[amonasro]

Fine. SHOW THE STINKING CAMERA VIDEO THAT WAS TAKEN BY THE SEALS AND CUT IT OFF RIGHT BEFORE OBL GETS SHOT!

Fake!! Moon landing fake!! You really think a video would satisfy the conspiracy theorists?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[juleswin]

Fake!! Moon landing fake!! You really think a video would satisfy the conspiracy theorists?

Someone made an analogy of this whole Osama killing and he said that this is just like a hunter finding Bigfoot and then burning the corpse before coming out in public declare to have finally captured the elusive Bigfoot, the hunter then asks you to take his word for it. I immediately thought about you when I read it.

At least give a solid proof before claiming that no evidence would satisfy us. lol, the sad part is that I was so hostile to conspiracy theory when I first joined the liberty movement and I can see myself saying exactly what you are say now :)

[Anti Federalist]

So some "conspiracies" are more equal than others ;) There are many who'd call all this silliness about the Fed being a privately-owned bank, or all this inflation talk, conspiracy theorist Alex Jones mumbo jumbo. There are some who'd say anyone who believes we went to war over anything but spreading democracy, avenging 9/11, and finding WMDs, is a wackyjob.

That's not to say I'm one of those "holograms did 9/11!" people, but be careful lobbing those stones from inside your glass house.

Oh yeah, that's worth a +rep

[Anti Federalist]

Hey...!!!

Seriously, I LoL'ed


LOL at your last sentence.

As for sending people here to learn about Ron Paul's views why on earth would you do something crazy like that? Seriously. Take out all of the birther/truther/deather stuff and you still have:

* Folks attacking Martin Luther King Jr. like he was the worst demon from hell next to Abraham Lincoln
* Folks claiming that south did no wrong leading up to or during the civil war
* Atheists hating on Christians
* Christians hating on atheists
* Fist pumping for anti establishment nut jobs like Joe Scott who "stick it to the man"
* "Serious" debates on child porn and underage sex
* Pornstars for Paul (although this might actually gain more votes than it loses)

the list goes on. Seriously there is no way to make RPF "clean and respectable for the masses". During 2007/2008 someone had most of all of Ron Paul's positions at ronpaullibrary.org. Sadly that was recently taken down. :( (You can still reach it through the web archive.[1] :) ) Or better yet, send people to Ron Paul's official website RonPaul2012.org. This is an activist website and people who are already in the movement should come here. At least that's my view.

[1] See: http://replay.web.archive.org/20101005173223/http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/

[jmdrake]

Fake!! Moon landing fake!! You really think a video would satisfy the conspiracy theorists?

Somebody has already addressed this well. If the answer to why the government hasn't verified their proof is "Well conspiracy theorists won't believe it" then we might as well all quit working for Dr. Paul and go home and go to sleep. Seriously. His whole platform revolves around the fact that we are being lied to concerning the federal reserve. Now maybe you want to "pick and choose" what conspiracy theories are "acceptable" but that's just silly.

Further if Obama released credible evidence I would consider it. I and others looked at a more recent OBL death photo and I thought it might be real...until it was shown conclusively to be a fake.

See: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?290633-Possible-Osama-photo

So go rethink yourself.

[jmdrake]

Hey...!!!

Seriously, I LoL'ed

Glad you got a kick out of that. I could have said fist pumping about Ron Paul's latest celebrity endorsement. ;)

[PatriotOne]

LOL at your last sentence.

As for sending people here to learn about Ron Paul's views why on earth would you do something crazy like that? Seriously. Take out all of the birther/truther/deather stuff and you still have:

* Folks attacking Martin Luther King Jr. like he was the worst demon from hell next to Abraham Lincoln
* Folks claiming that south did no wrong leading up to or during the civil war
* Atheists hating on Christians
* Christians hating on atheists
* Fist pumping for anti establishment nut jobs like Joe Scott who "stick it to the man"
* "Serious" debates on child porn and underage sex
* Pornstars for Paul (although this might actually gain more votes than it loses)

the list goes on. Seriously there is no way to make RPF "clean and respectable for the masses". During 2007/2008 someone had most of all of Ron Paul's positions at ronpaullibrary.org. Sadly that was recently taken down. :( (You can still reach it through the web archive.[1] :) ) Or better yet, send people to Ron Paul's official website RonPaul2012.org. This is an activist website and people who are already in the movement should come here. At least that's my view.

[1] See: http://replay.web.archive.org/20101005173223/http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/

Truth. Take out everything here that might offend a new person and there wouldn't be anything here to see except perhaps a lonely Josh posting RP video's and articles. Most people debate from their own position here and only pull out the "RP's position" card when they think they can use it as a trump card. Thisn forum would become defunct really quick.

[Brian4Liberty]

Truth. Take out everything here that might offend a new person and there wouldn't be anything here to see except perhaps a lonely Josh posting RP video's and articles. Most people debate from their own position here and only pull out the "RP's position" card when they think they can use it as a trump card. Thisn forum would become defunct really quick.

Yeah, this forum is now a political/social debating society where any (and all) topics can be debated. The more outlandish the better. It's not a Ron Paul campaign and public relations outlet, although there is a shared interest in Ron Paul. ;)

[PatriotOne]

Yeah, this forum is now a political/social debating society where any (and all) topics can be debated. The more outlandish the better. It's not a Ron Paul campaign and public relations outlet, although there is a shared interest in Ron Paul. ;)

And it works. RP forums is more interesting than a forum doing nothing but agreeing and parroting each other. Even newcomers would be more likely to stick around to watch the thrilla from manilla arguing around here and learn something along the way. People wouldn't be watching any reality tv shows without the "drama" they make sure to include in it or create and it's why they build it into every show. RP forums is like a train wreck. Ya just can't look away.

[PatriotOne]

At least give a solid proof before claiming that no evidence would satisfy us. lol, the sad part is that I was so hostile to conspiracy theory when I first joined the liberty movement and I can see myself saying exactly what you are say now :)

Awwwww.....keep this up and we might present you with your own custom made tin foil hat :D

[AFPVet]

Is it just me, or does anyone else confuse the names Obama with Osama? Anyways, they got him... I just think that it is a bit too convenient that they roll out with his death soon after the birth certificate issue... just weird.... I always thought they they got him when they dropped the Daisy on his cave.

[Bossobass]

The US gov't treats its citizens like 3rd graders who ride the short bus.

From the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident' to the 'magic bullet' theory.

More recently, if the Pat Tillman story doesn't smack you in the numb skull, nothing will.

And, hey, whatever we do, let's not let the smoking gun be a mushroom cloud.

Bosso

[AFPVet]

The US gov't treats its citizens like 3rd graders who ride the short bus.

From the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident' to the 'magic bullet' theory.

More recently, if the Pat Tillman story doesn't smack you in the numb skull, nothing will.

And, hey, whatever we do, let's not let the smoking gun be a mushroom cloud.

Bosso


Right on the money!

[rnestam]

Yeah, this forum is now a political/social debating society where any (and all) topics can be debated. The more outlandish the better. It's not a Ron Paul campaign and public relations outlet, although there is a shared interest in Ron Paul. ;)

well said, I was wrong. I love arguing and hate being a room full of people I agree with 100 percent as a poster down the thread brought up. nothing but "Ron Paul is awesome!, bump, bump, +1, +1, Blimp...." -would be pretty fucking lame huh. haha

[heavenlyboy34]

I see that this current operation of Wag the Dog is working just wonderfully!

Was he killed yesterday, was he killed five years ago, did he have responsibility, did he deny having responsibility, it is all irrelevant!

The only thing relevant is that the PR has been played excellently! Big bonuses all around assured!
winning post! I'd +rep you, but I'm out of ammo. :(

[heavenlyboy34]

The US gov't treats its citizens like 3rd graders who ride the short bus.

From the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident' to the 'magic bullet' theory.

More recently, if the Pat Tillman story doesn't smack you in the numb skull, nothing will.

And, hey, whatever we do, let's not let the smoking gun be a mushroom cloud.

Bosso

Ha! :D +a whole bunch ;)

[Brian4Liberty]

More recently, if the Pat Tillman story doesn't smack you in the numb skull, nothing will.


Pat Tillman was really dead. ;)

Yeah, that's another good example of how the "stories" we hear in the media (or given by politicians) are never accurate, and are often twisted by politics and hidden agendas.

[libertyjam]

winning post! I'd +rep you, but I'm out of ammo. :(

Hey thanks! I'm glad someone liked it. Catch me next time, I could use the pos. rep.

[Fredom101]

I'm extremely angry over this whole OBL thing for a few reasons:
1) The gov't has shown NO proof that they killed OBL. NONE. We should take their word for it WHY?
2) People are celebrating the death of bin laden. Well, Obama has killed MORE people. Would they be celebrating if Obama was killed? Of course not, because they buy into the US propaganda.
3) Why is it a "conspiracy theory" to NOT believe the US bagged obl? That makes ZERO sense. The burden of proof is on those who are making the claim.

[moostraks]

Pat Tillman was really dead. ;)

Yeah, that's another good example of how the "stories" we hear in the media (or given by politicians) are never accurate, and are often twisted by politics and hidden agendas.

And yet on numerous occasions in reading responses in other internet areas I see people using the fact it is publicized in the msm as validation that one version triumphs over another. Problem is when the msm has so many conflicting and evolving stories. Yet they stick their heads in the sand an only listen to the latest version...