Nationalism is nauseating

[Matt Collins]

This gratuitous display of nationalism is beyond nauseating. Nationalism is of course defined as the worship of one's government, usually accompanied by an aggressive impulse toward other countries. Patriotism on the other hand is the love of one's people and land.

[mport1]

I couldn't agree more. It makes me sick to my stomach.

[Indy Vidual]

Oh really? :collins: You have the option to leave the country then. :p
You're right Matt, many people don't know much about Patriotism.

[ClayTrainor]

Socialism with a Flag.

[raiha]

This gratuitous display of nationalism is beyond nauseating. Nationalism is of course defined as the worship of one's government, usually accompanied by an aggressive impulse toward other countries. Patriotism on the other hand is the love of one's people and land.

Thank-you! That is what I thought... but did not think i could say, given I am not American. Vomit icon

[nate895]

I really don't get it. How could you possibly be so emotionally connected like that? It's just weird, IMO.

[DeadheadForPaul]

Were the celebrations on VE DAY patriotism or nationalism?

[mport1]

Socialism with a Flag.

The mafia with a flag.

[pcosmar]

Nationalism, Socialism and Propaganda

Goebbels would be proud.

[Matt Collins]

Were the celebrations on VE DAY patriotism or nationalism?
The US government had no legitimate excuse to being involved in either of the World Wars.

[DeadheadForPaul]

The US government had no legitimate excuse to being involved in either of the World Wars.

Even with us having war declared on us and being attacked in WWII?

[jmhudak17]

The US government had no legitimate excuse to being involved in either of the World Wars.

I completely agree in regards to WWI, but what about WWII? We were attacked by Japan, and I remember hearing the Hitler declared war on us.

[low preference guy]

I completely agree in regards to WWI, but what about WWII? We were attacked by Japan, and I remember hearing the Hitler declared war on us.

If the U.S. didn't enter WWI, WWII wouldn't have happened.

[nate895]

The US government had no legitimate excuse to being involved in either of the World Wars.

Oh, yeah, getting bombed isn't a legitimate excuse.

I can understand VE and VJ day since everyone in the country was involved in the war. This fighting hasn't really effected us in quite the same way. We didn't have to ration, hundreds of thousands didn't die, daily life didn't stop. Life basically came to a stand still in WWII, it hasn't in this war.

[nate895]

If we didn't enter WWI, WWII wouldn't have happened.

It's a bit too late to complain about that when you're getting bombed. At that point, you kind of just have to live with your mistakes and defend yourself.

[low preference guy]

It's a bit too late to complain about that when you're getting bombed. At that point, you kind of just have to live with your mistakes and defend yourself.

I don't disagree with that.

[pcosmar]

Were the celebrations on VE DAY patriotism or nationalism?

Celebrating an end of war and troops coming home.

I see neither of those happening today.

[DeadheadForPaul]

If the U.S. didn't enter WWI, WWII wouldn't have happened.

Hardly

WWII occurred because the British and French wanted to punish the Germans despite U.S. objections

[DeadheadForPaul]

Celebrating an end of war and troops coming home.

I see neither of those happening today.

Ok. Was it right to celebrate Hitler's death?

[BamaFanNKy]

It's a bit too late to complain about that when you're getting bombed. At that point, you kind of just have to live with your mistakes and defend yourself.

Well, it was blow back from the oil embargo but, I agree it was an act of war.

[Andrew-Austin]

Last time I was at a base-ball game, and everyone got all religious during the national anthem, I felt like I was suddenly thrown in to a nut house. Its just creepy, and sad, and yeah.. nauseating..

Sorry if I'm turning anyone off by saying that, but you can always go to this thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?290283-This-makes-me-proud-to-be-an-American....-I-ve-never-been-prouder-of-my-country.) to become red-white-and-aroused again.

[cubical]

matt, thanks for this message board. it does a heart good to see that all of America isn't filled with sheep waving American flags.

[Badger Paul]

"Celebrating an end of war and troops coming home. I see neither of those happening today. "

We have to make it happen because the people out there celebrating believe its happened and want it to happen. I have no problem celebrating OBL's death for what it can do to liberate the country's mindset from the fear its been under for the last 10 years. And with this mindset free from fear, perhaps RP can influence more people to say "It's over. We've won. Let's come home."

[nate895]

Well, it was blow back from the oil embargo but, I agree it was an act of war.

I agree with you. Like I said, when the bombs drop, you just have live with your mistakes and defend yourself. You shouldn't make those mistakes again, though.

[BlackTerrel]

Yeah there was one huge asshole who even released a statement:

“I commend our troops, the intelligence community, and the military leaders involved in both the administrations of Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama for their perseverance and courage in pursuit of this most grievous enemy of the United States of America.”

What a tool whoever that is.

[Badger Paul]

"Celebrating an end of war and troops coming home. I see neither of those happening today. "

We have to make it happen because the people out there celebrating believe its happened and want it to happen. I have no problem celebrating OBL's death for what it can do to liberate the country's mindset from the fear its been under for the last 10 years. And with this mindset free from fear, perhaps RP can influence more people to say "It's over. We've won. Let's come home."

[goldencane]

Speaking for nationalism in general, not necessarily toward the military, I don't think it is bad at all. Although I would like the country to be freer, I do take pride in the fact that I do live In one of the freest countries. Plus I love watching international sports and I love rooting for the USA!!

[BamaFanNKy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GlvVBb3vMU

[dude58677]

It is only temporary. It is only temporary. This will die down when people cannot afford to pay their bills.

[dude58677]

It is only temporary. It is only temporary. This will die down when people cannot afford to pay their bills. Give it some time!

[heavenlyboy34]

This gratuitous display of nationalism is beyond nauseating. Nationalism is of course defined as the worship of one's government, usually accompanied by an aggressive impulse toward other countries. Patriotism on the other hand is the love of one's people and land.

The best post you've ever made, Collins. :cool:

[Chomsky]

This whole thing is so embarrassing. 10 years after the fact we get a symbolic figurehead that was no longer running day to day operations according to most. Do we come out the winners in this situation or just looking pathetic and desperate, I would have to say the latter. I've been watching Al Jazeera English and the arabs watching these crowds in front of the White House have to be scratching their heads. I mean imagine if in 1956 Walter Cronkite breaks in and announces US military forces just killed Hitler who had been living in a mansion on the outskirts of Berlin, would that be cause for celebration. Most of this country is incredibly out of touch and this whole reaction to bin Laden's death is just the most recent example of the detachment and stupidity.

[heavenlyboy34]

Hardly

WWII occurred because the British and French wanted to punish the Germans despite U.S. objections

True, but the war in the Pacific was completely avoidable and unnecessary. And the US regime didn't HAVE to get involved in the European theater. Plenty of war profiteers and arms suppliers did make money, though.

[goldencane]

This whole thing is so embarrassing. 10 years after the fact we get a symbolic figurehead that was no longer running day to day operations according to most. Do we come out the winners in this situation or just looking pathetic and desperate, I would have to say the latter. I've been watching Al Jazeera English and the arabs watching these crowds in front of the White House have to be scratching their heads. I mean imagine if in 1956 Walter Cronkite breaks in and announces US military forces just killed Hitler who had been living in a mansion on the outskirts of Berlin, would that be cause for celebration. Most of this country is incredibly out of touch and this whole reaction to bin Laden's death is just the most recent example of the detachment and stupidity.

Thats what happens when the media makes out Bin Laden as some sort of demi-god terrorist. Many of these people think that HE was terrorism and thus we have defeated terrorism as a whole.

[Matt Collins]

WWII occurred because the British and French wanted to punish the Germans despite U.S. objectionsWWI was a stalemate when the US entered. The US had zero legitimate reason to enter the conflict except that the Brits cajoled our government into it. I'm sure there were some banking interests involved as well as mystery surrounding the Lusitania.

If the US government had minded it's own business and stayed out of the conflict then who knows, WWI may have fizzled out. If that had happened then Germany wouldnt've have had the screws put to it by France thus giving rise to Hitler.

It's all about unintended consequences.

[Matt Collins]

Well, it was blow back from the oil embargo but, I agree it was an act of war.Exactly. The oil embargo was an act of war. The US government had ZERO business being in that part of the world. The Japs were threatened by us so the tried to take out our government's fleet.

[heavenlyboy34]

WWI was a stalemate when the US entered. The US had zero legitimate reason to enter the conflict except that the Brits cajoled our government into it. I'm sure there were some banking interests involved as well as mystery surrounding the Lusitania.

If the US government had minded it's own business and stayed out of the conflict then who knows, WWI may have fizzled out. If that had happened then Germany wouldnt've have had the screws put to it by France thus giving rise to Hitler.

It's all about unintended consequences.

Yep, more than likely, IMO. Germany had a rather sizable empire back then, and was in the process of collapsing. One of the reasons Hitler came to power was because the Germans wanted their sense of national pride back, which had been taken from them by the Brits and Yanks.

[cindy25]

Were the celebrations on VE DAY patriotism or nationalism?

VE Day was different; it signaled an official end to the war (in Europe) . I have never read about celebrations when Hitler, Mussolini or Tojo died.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

It is indeed nauseating. Just as people screeched at the "Death to America" protests where they burned US flags, so too are people doing in another part of the world as they watch our fellow countrymen act in the most sickeningly jingoistic fashion.

[Vessol]

WWI was a stalemate when the US entered. The US had zero legitimate reason to enter the conflict except that the Brits cajoled our government into it. I'm sure there were some banking interests involved as well as mystery surrounding the Lusitania.

If the US government had minded it's own business and stayed out of the conflict then who knows, WWI may have fizzled out. If that had happened then Germany wouldnt've have had the screws put to it by France thus giving rise to Hitler.

It's all about unintended consequences.

In 1915, peace treaties were already being drawn up. French soldiers were mutinying enmasse and the British were not in that good of a state. It would've been a stalemate if the U.S never entered.

The U.S however had lended tons of money to both France and the UK. And there was no way they would get paid that money if those countries could not loot Germany dry.

[raiha]

Speaking for nationalism in general, not necessarily toward the military, I don't think it is bad at all. Although I would like the country to be freer, I do take pride in the fact that I do live In one of the freest countries. Plus I love watching international sports and I love rooting for the USA!!

As Matt pointed out there is an important distinction between ‘nationalism’ and ‘patriotism’. Patriotism is a healthy appreciation of one’s roots, a natural love of the country and the culture that one comes from, springing from a sense of gratitude to them. Nationalism, on the other hand, means an over-identification of oneself with one’s nation and national characteristics. This over-identification tends to produce a range of disturbing mental states, such as conceit, aggression, contempt for (or resentment even xenophobia towards) other nations.

[fj45lvr]

Nationalism would be pretty cool if there were 6 billion countries on the globe today

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

“Let us remember that we can do these things not just because of wealth or power, but because of who we are. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you, may God bless you, and may God bless the United States of America.” - President Barack Obama

I'm going to go yarf my goddamn toenails up now.

[Anti Federalist]

Oh, yeah, getting bombed isn't a legitimate excuse.

I can understand VE and VJ day since everyone in the country was involved in the war. This fighting hasn't really effected us in quite the same way. We didn't have to ration, hundreds of thousands didn't die, daily life didn't stop. Life basically came to a stand still in WWII, it hasn't in this war.

Hundreds of thousands most certainly have died.

[showpan]

Bin Ladens death, or at least the announcement, only serves to make him a martyr. There were less than 1000 Al Qaeda when the "war on terror" started...now there are over 10,000. This "war" has cost us trillions of dollars, thousands of troops, 1.5 million civilian casualties, the destruction of our economy and the constitution....yet there has never been a direct link between Bin Laden and 911. People chanting in the streets as the rest of the world laughs at us for being so naive. Bin Laden has already won and yet the sheeple think we have. It must be perpetual opposite day.

[Verrater]

The US government had no legitimate excuse to being involved in either of the World Wars.

At least, we declared wars back then.

[Matt Collins]

At least, we declared wars back then.Yeah.


Look up the Just War Theory that RP subscribes to.

[oldsmobile98]

So, to borrow from the playbook of our statist opponents, how can nationalism be used as a tool against global governance/transnational socialism?

[sailingaway]

Matt Collins: Nationalism: noun - the worship of one's government, usually accompanied by an aggressive impulse toward other countries.

Merriam Webster: Nationalism: : loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

[heavenlyboy34]

Matt Collins: Nationalism: noun - the worship of one's government, usually accompanied by an aggressive impulse toward other countries.

Merriam Webster: Nationalism: : loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
Yes, but Collins' definition is more accurate in practice. Check out the nationalist art/music/etc that began in the 19th century and continues to this day. (i.e. "Ma Blast", by Bedrich Smetana)

[Matt Collins]

Matt Collins: Nationalism: noun - the worship of one's government, usually accompanied by an aggressive impulse toward other countries.

Merriam Webster: Nationalism: : loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
Connotative vs denotative. Not only that but the US isn't a nation, it's a federation of 50 independent republics.

[JohnGalt1225]

http://www.politifake.org/image/political/1003/americanism-adolf-hitler-american-politics-republicans-fasci-political-poster-1268518887.jpg

[Matt Collins]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhXt4BjLL0g

[moostraks]

It is indeed nauseating. Just as people screeched at the "Death to America" protests where they burned US flags, so too are people doing in another part of the world as they watch our fellow countrymen act in the most sickeningly jingoistic fashion.

So well put. It is surreal because of how the msm has spun this same reaction as being disgusting when other countries do it and yet this is a day of celebration and joy???

[robert68]

... the US isn't a nation, it's a federation of 50 independent republics.

And I'm Thomas Jefferson.

[FightforFreedom]

http://www.politifake.org/image/political/1003/americanism-adolf-hitler-american-politics-republicans-fasci-political-poster-1268518887.jpg

Looks like Mike Huckabee.

[Grubb556]

Don't most Americans mostly associate with their state rather then "America" as a whole ?

[nobody's_hero]

What scares me now is the move for non-partisanship. It will be just as it was after 9/11 whenever people think it is a good idea to cast off politics altogether in favor of 'following the leader.'

[scottditzen]

Don't most Americans mostly associate with their state rather then "America" as a whole ?

Actually I think with most people I know, their connection with "home state" is far less than with that of the country as a whole. As I've lived in several states, I don't consider myself that closely connected with a single one.

Maybe people who've spent most of their lives in one state think differently on this?

[nobody's_hero]

Actually I think with most people I know, their connection with "home state" is far less than with that of the country as a whole. As I've lived in several states, I don't consider myself that closely connected with a single one.

Maybe people who've spent most of their lives in one state think differently on this?

Maybe. I can't speak for everyone, but I think of it like most family relationships.

The states are like parents, they won't give their kids sweets because they know they'll be hyper and get cavities.

The federal government is like the grandparents; the kids know they can always get goodies from the grandparents, so, they'll bypass the states to get things like chocolate chip cookies, even though it's bad for them.

Not a great metaphor, maybe . . .

[heavenlyboy34]

Connotative vs denotative. Not only that but the US isn't a nation, it's a federation of 50 independent republics.
Once upon a time, yes. That's mostly false now, though. :(

[Matt Collins]

Once upon a time, yes. That's mostly false now, though. :(
De facto vs De jure

[outspoken]

Idolotry is the present state of human nature. 'Thou shall not have any Gods before me'.... Even when you wrap idolotry in a pretty red, white, and blue flag and pound your chest like a neanderthal does not make you a better human being than another.

[GuerrillaXXI]

This gratuitous display of nationalism is beyond nauseating. Nationalism is of course defined as the worship of one's government, usually accompanied by an aggressive impulse toward other countries. Patriotism on the other hand is the love of one's people and land.Agreed completely. Unfortunately, I'm out of rep right now.

I'll go even further and say that each year I become more disgusted with what America has become. I love the principles on which America was founded, but most of those have long been abandoned except when they're paid lip service. It's not just the government, either, but a majority of the population. Most Americans (regardless of what they claim) hate freedom, hate justice, love to swallow empty slogans and lies, and love America's foreign aggression -- as long as they aren't the ones bearing the consequences.

How many innocent people did Osama Bin Laden kill? And how many innocent people has the US government killed in just the past couple of decades? Who are the real terrorists, then? But most people in this country view American lives as much more valuable than the lives of foreigners. It's okay for the US to kill millions of foreigners, but it's never okay for foreigners to kill Americans.

This country is becoming more and more like Nazi Germany. The American public is drunk with a sense of exceptionalism.

[CuseRonPaul]

The obnoxious car honking and screaming that kept me up late is what is pissing me off today, but the complete lack of perspective on the whole thing is incredibly nauseating. I want RP as President, but these people don't really deserve that.

[goldencane]

As Matt pointed out there is an important distinction between ‘nationalism’ and ‘patriotism’. Patriotism is a healthy appreciation of one’s roots, a natural love of the country and the culture that one comes from, springing from a sense of gratitude to them. Nationalism, on the other hand, means an over-identification of oneself with one’s nation and national characteristics. This over-identification tends to produce a range of disturbing mental states, such as conceit, aggression, contempt for (or resentment even xenophobia towards) other nations.

Haha, I guess I need to read! (Can I claim in my defense that I had been up for over 40 hrs? :o)

[Sentient Void]

Nationalism, Socialism and Propaganda

Goebbels would be proud.

"Whether it's a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship... voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. [Just] tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same way in any country." - Nazi Reichmarshall Hermann Goering (Nuremberg Diaries & Interviews)

[Mini-Me]

I posted this last night in the "Flash mob cheers in front of White House" thread. It wasn't the first time I've quoted this passage, and it wasn't the last. This thread brought it back to the forefront of my mind:

At this moment the entire group of people broke into a deep, slow, rhythmical chant of ["U-S-A! . . . U-S-A! . . . U-S-A!"] over and over again, very slowly, with a long pause between [each letter] -- a heavy, murmurous sound, somehow curiously savage, in the background of which one seemed to hear the stamp of naked feet and the throbbing of tom-toms. For perhaps as much as thirty seconds they kept it up. It was a refrain that was often heard in moments of overwhelming emotion. Partly it was a sort of hymn to the wisdom and majesty of [the federal government], but still more it was an act of self-hypnosis, a deliberate drowning of consciousness by means of rhythmic noise. Winston's entrails seemed to grow cold. In the Two Minutes Hate he could not help sharing in the general delirium, but this subhuman chanting of ["U-S-A! . . . "U-S-A!"] always filled him with horror...

[heavenlyboy34]

"Whether it's a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship... voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. [Just] tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same way in any country." - Nazi Reichmarshall Hermann Goering (Nuremberg Diaries & Interviews)
qft!!!

[heavenlyboy34]

De facto vs De jure

some of both, since the Senate is now democratically elected and neither the legislature nor the courts check the executive very effectively. Plus, the number of representatives does not accurately reflect the population (there would need to be another few hundred house seats for fair representation). /end rant

[mac_hine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhXt4BjLL0g


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwIxo2J3GYn5TwTywuSYGg69jxN2Nci r8CHn7plgIoHzeU9XXZ

[Freedom 4 all]

This gratuitous display of nationalism is beyond nauseating. Nationalism is of course defined as the worship of one's government, usually accompanied by an aggressive impulse toward other countries. Patriotism on the other hand is the love of one's people and land.

So true, they should have called it the nationalist act.

[CuseRonPaul]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhXt4BjLL0g

The part about never having more freedom than right now first made me piss my pants, but now thinking about it I want to puke.

[Freedom 4 all]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhXt4BjLL0g

That dude should become an icon of nationalist idiocy, at least around here. He's a perfect stereotype of Boobus. Especially the complete lack of awareness about China funding the whole fucking war.

[anaconda]

To be fair, some of this might be semi staged propaganda or a case of looking really hard to find these little frat boy-sorority girl beer fest America Fuck Ya type gatherings. I was amazed that about half (maybe more) of the yahoo comments under the Associated Press story were calling "bullshit" and expressing incredulity or great skepticism at the least.

[MelissaWV]

When the Towers fell (in whatever way you believe they did), there was outrage in the media about celebrations in the street.

When Bin Laden was killed, apparently surrounded by women and children and "couriers" whose fates and numbers have not been verified, there were celebrations in the street.

Who thinks this will go well?

[payme_rick]

Hello Lee Greenwood, haven't heard from you in a while...

[JohnGalt1225]

What scares me now is the move for non-partisanship. It will be just as it was after 9/11 whenever people think it is a good idea to cast off politics altogether in favor of 'following the leader.'
I always cringe at "bi-partisanship." That always means, "here comes the pain!"

[JohnGalt1225]

When the Towers fell (in whatever way you believe they did), there was outrage in the media about celebrations in the street.

When Bin Laden was killed, apparently surrounded by women and children and "couriers" whose fates and numbers have not been verified, there were celebrations in the street.

Who thinks this will go well?
But you don't understand, on 9/11 Americans died. So that's outrageous and no one should celebrate. But last night, only "Arabs" died so that's cause for a frat party! USA! USA! USA! Hey, no one ever said nationalism was logical.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

When the Towers fell (in whatever way you believe they did), there was outrage in the media about celebrations in the street.

When Bin Laden was killed, apparently surrounded by women and children and "couriers" whose fates and numbers have not been verified, there were celebrations in the street.

Who thinks this will go well?

Oh, blowback aplenty is coming. We blew 3 of Gaddafi's grandchildren to kingdom come and now have a group of supposed 'spontaneous' crowds of cheering jackasses celebrating Bin Laden's death.

[MelissaWV]

Oh, blowback aplenty is coming. We blew 3 of Gaddafi's grandchildren to kingdom come and now have a group of supposed 'spontaneous' crowds of cheering jackasses celebrating Bin Laden's death.

There are very likely dead children as a part of this "successful operation" as well.

[AlexMerced]

I agree, Nationalism, drives me nuts, once loyalty to be to themselves, their family, and friends, not to some abstract idea

[GuerrillaXXI]

I always cringe at "bi-partisanship." That always means, "here comes the pain!"You're not kidding.

Of course we all know that the US government was divided into three main branches in order to prevent too much centralization of power. But the only real separation of powers that exists anymore in the US government is due to the bickering between the two major parties. When the two parties agree on something, it almost always becomes policy whether it's constitutional or not. And very often it's not.