The woman in the red dress

[dejavu22]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0EkswN1OWgc/TSAozc9vyJI/AAAAAAAACHM/xOzygBkhelY/s400/theMatrix.womanInRed.jpg

I know that many people within this website like to make references to V for Vendetta and also the Matrix so i decided to use something from the matrix to express my concern over current political discourse. I fear that we are being distracted by ideas of an easy resolution and distracted from what is actually important.

What happens is the birther thing was proven. Obama is thrown out but after what a 1 year mess of hearings in congress then Biden takes over. And then there is the normal election and we still face all of the other challengers.

The only thing the birther thing accomplishes is wasting our efforts which could be re-appropriated to more useful endeavors and alienating people on the fence who think its dirty politics. It is limited benefit with a huge downside if proven wrong.

The same is true about the 9/11 truther stuff it is playing with a live hand grenade. If the truthers are proven right the country will literally go into anarchy. What happens after that is anyone's guess. And if proven wrong it takes away from every single argument you support from that point on. Once again huge risk limited reward.

I am not saying that these issues should not be investigated because when arguing between informed and uninformed we should always error to the side of the informed but let someone else worry about it.

The thing that got me interested in Paul in 2007 was the fact that he wasn't attacking anyone he was explaining his beliefs and attempting to persuade people to his positions. I am not a religious person but the only thing that i think properly exemplifies my opinion on this is the serenity prayer.

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."

We need to focus on convincing people that Paul is the best candidate not that everyone else is bad on an individual basis. Build a pedestal to put your candidate on don't try to dig 20 holes to bury everyone else.

[KramerDSP]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0EkswN1OWgc/TSAozc9vyJI/AAAAAAAACHM/xOzygBkhelY/s400/theMatrix.womanInRed.jpg

I know that many people within this website like to make references to V for Vendetta and also the Matrix so i decided to use something from the matrix to express my concern over current political discourse. I fear that we are being distracted by ideas of an easy resolution and distracted from what is actually important.

What happens is the birther thing was proven. Obama is thrown out but after what a 1 year mess of hearings in congress then Biden takes over. And then there is the normal election and we still face all of the other challengers.

The only thing the birther thing accomplishes is wasting our efforts which could be re-appropriated to more useful endeavors and alienating people on the fence who think its dirty politics. It is limited benefit with a huge downside if proven wrong.

The same is true about the 9/11 truther stuff it is playing with a live hand grenade. If the truthers are proven right the country will literally go into anarchy. What happens after that is anyone's guess. And if proven wrong it takes away from every single argument you support from that point on. Once again huge risk limited reward.

I am not saying that these issues should not be investigated because when arguing between informed and uninformed we should always error to the side of the informed but let someone else worry about it.

The thing that got me interested in Paul in 2007 was the fact that he wasn't attacking anyone he was explaining his beliefs and attempting to persuade people to his positions. I am not a religious person but the only thing that i think properly exemplifies my opinion on this is the serenity prayer.

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."

We need to focus on convincing people that Paul is the best candidate not that everyone else is bad on an individual basis. Build a pedestal to put your candidate on don't try to dig 20 holes to bury everyone else.

+Rep. Thanks for sharing.

[jmdrake]

Interesting analogy. But you're wrong about the 9/11 truther issue. Here's why. Everyone who comes to the conclusion that 9/11 isn't what the government told us is one more person that will not be bullied into accepting crap like TSA groping or new wars to fight "Al Qaeda". You can be a birther and turn around and accept the next POS politician that comes along with an "R" after his name. The same is not true for truthers. Further the "truth" isn't necessarily "George Bush did it".

Step 1 on 9/11 truth is realizing that at the very least the government had actionable intelligence that could have prevented 9/11 without needing to violate the constitution. If you understand nothing but that then you won't fall for the "trade liberty for security" trick.

Step 2 is understanding that "incompetence" doesn't fully explain what happened. When you consider plans to invade Afghanistan before 9/11, along with active interference against government investigators (who have come forward) you at least reach LIHOP land. (Let it happen on purpose). Understanding LIHOP doesn't put you in "Let's kill the government and have anarchy" mode.

Step 3 is understanding the documented fact that an FBI informant was involved in the 1993 WTC bombing and understanding that if compartmentalized elements of the government were involved once before (and that's admitted) it could happen again. This is MIHOP (Made It Happen On Purpose). But the interesting thing about MIHOP is that it doesn't require you to hate the entire government. Again, realizing from step 3 that there were people within the government being thwarted by other elements within that same government helps you to understand that everyone in government is not your enemy.

Once you get past step 3, there are various and sundry angles to look at. But it doesn't matter. The key is remembering that this is compartmentalized. Just because there are a few bad cops on the force doesn't make the entire city bad.

It's ironic that you post a picture from the Matrix, but then you have a message of "take the blue pill or else we'll all die".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGQF8LAmiaE

Until people understand the truth behind what motivates their fear, they will continue to make the same mistakes. Oh, and at this point 9/11 truth cannot be proven "wrong". The chairman of the 9/11 commission already came out and said the commission was "set up to fail".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/12/911thebigcoverup

So the only thing we do know for certain is that we don't know the truth about 9/11.

Last point. General Smedley Butler stopped a Nazi coup decades ago. One of the conspirators was George H.W. Bush's father. That conspiracy was covered up at the time based on the same "The American people couldn't handle it". Keeping this stuff covered just allows the guilty to thrive.




http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0EkswN1OWgc/TSAozc9vyJI/AAAAAAAACHM/xOzygBkhelY/s400/theMatrix.womanInRed.jpg

I know that many people within this website like to make references to V for Vendetta and also the Matrix so i decided to use something from the matrix to express my concern over current political discourse. I fear that we are being distracted by ideas of an easy resolution and distracted from what is actually important.

What happens is the birther thing was proven. Obama is thrown out but after what a 1 year mess of hearings in congress then Biden takes over. And then there is the normal election and we still face all of the other challengers.

The only thing the birther thing accomplishes is wasting our efforts which could be re-appropriated to more useful endeavors and alienating people on the fence who think its dirty politics. It is limited benefit with a huge downside if proven wrong.

The same is true about the 9/11 truther stuff it is playing with a live hand grenade. If the truthers are proven right the country will literally go into anarchy. What happens after that is anyone's guess. And if proven wrong it takes away from every single argument you support from that point on. Once again huge risk limited reward.

I am not saying that these issues should not be investigated because when arguing between informed and uninformed we should always error to the side of the informed but let someone else worry about it.

The thing that got me interested in Paul in 2007 was the fact that he wasn't attacking anyone he was explaining his beliefs and attempting to persuade people to his positions. I am not a religious person but the only thing that i think properly exemplifies my opinion on this is the serenity prayer.

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."

We need to focus on convincing people that Paul is the best candidate not that everyone else is bad on an individual basis. Build a pedestal to put your candidate on don't try to dig 20 holes to bury everyone else.

[dbill27]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXQozTxQSiE

[dejavu22]

I think you missed what i was trying to convey... We need to wake people up to the ideas of liberty but we don't need to be distracted by trying to convince people of something that is likely not to be proven either way.

The goal is to convince people not to trade liberty for security and if you think that convincing them of a false flag operation is the only way to do that you are a fool. Ask them to assess their feelings of safety in airports over the last 20 years and the changes they have already submitted to and then explain to them how the overton window works killing with 1000 paper cuts. I cant actually think of a single person that i havent convinced to atleast vocalize a line in the sand of "i wont put up with X". If you can get them to draw the line then you can start moving it the other way.

Beyond that if people were awoken to the "truth" slowly then you are probably right anarchy is not a sure thing but that is unlikely. If the truth were to fully come out it would be a situation where a large proportion of the population's views were changed overnight and anarchy would more than likely follow. Hell the problems after Katrina were minimal until the people lost faith that the officials were actually going to get things under control and then the looting started. What happens when an entire country looses faith in all military police and government personnel at the same time. Following anarchy is a ??? but the most likely outcome is a clinched fist dictator who takes charge and squashes dissent. I just don't believe that people will be able to separate the people responsible from the people in charge.

My point is we need to encourage liberty not push an agenda that would lead us to anarchy.

RP has said that the governments favorite tool is fear and i believe if we wish to discard that government fear is not the weapon we should use.

[Agorism]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvCHP7Q7Vf0

[Sola_Fide]

I think you missed what i was trying to convey... We need to wake people up to the ideas of liberty but we don't need to be distracted by trying to convince people of something that is likely not to be proven either way.

The goal is to convince people not to trade liberty for security and if you think that convincing them of a false flag operation is the only way to do that you are a fool. Ask them to assess their feelings of safety in airports over the last 20 years and the changes they have already submitted to and then explain to them how the overton window works killing with 1000 paper cuts. I cant actually think of a single person that i havent convinced to atleast vocalize a line in the sand of "i wont put up with X". If you can get them to draw the line then you can start moving it the other way.

Beyond that if people were awoken to the "truth" slowly then you are probably right anarchy is not a sure thing but that is unlikely. If the truth were to fully come out it would be a situation where a large proportion of the population's views were changed overnight and anarchy would more than likely follow. Hell the problems after Katrina were minimal until the people lost faith that the officials were actually going to get things under control and then the looting started. What happens when an entire country looses faith in all military police and government personnel at the same time. Following anarchy is a ??? but the most likely outcome is a clinched fist dictator who takes charge and squashes dissent. I just don't believe that people will be able to separate the people responsible from the people in charge.

My point is we need to encourage liberty not push an agenda that would lead us to anarchy.

RP has said that the governments favorite tool is fear and i believe if we wish to discard that government fear is not the weapon we should use.


Because of the nature of man, anarchism should not be something we should fear. I think you might have your fear in the wrong things.

Authoritarianism is the very clear and present danger that we have always faced, and face today. This is what we need to fear more than anarchy.

[Vessol]

The same is true about the 9/11 truther stuff it is playing with a live hand grenade. If the truthers are proven right the country will literally go into anarchy. What happens after that is anyone's guess.

You say that as if it is a bad thing.

[dejavu22]

Anarchy isn't the worst thing but it is unsustainable and more than likely the result would be 1000% in the opposite direction towards an authoritarian dictator. Once again the promise of security will eliminate liberty.

[Vessol]

Anarchy isn't the worst thing but it is unsustainable and more than likely the result would be 1000% in the opposite direction towards an authoritarian dictator. Once again the promise of security will eliminate liberty.

Choosing between an authoritarian dictatorship and a democracy is like choosing between a quick and painful death or a slow and agonizing death.

[jmdrake]

I think you missed what i was trying to convey... We need to wake people up to the ideas of liberty but we don't need to be distracted by trying to convince people of something that is likely not to be proven either way.

The goal is to convince people not to trade liberty for security and if you think that convincing them of a false flag operation is the only way to do that you are a fool.


Right. When logic fails call your opponent a fool. :rolleyes: And I see you didn't even bother reading what I wrote. I laid out three specific steps along the 9/11 truth road that exposes the fact that constitutional changes were not needed to prevent 9/11. Only the third step involved "false flag".



Ask them to assess their feelings of safety in airports over the last 20 years and the changes they have already submitted to and then explain to them how the overton window works killing with 1000 paper cuts. I cant actually think of a single person that i havent convinced to atleast vocalize a line in the sand of "i wont put up with X". If you can get them to draw the line then you can start moving it the other way.


I've seen people draw a line in the sand that they wouldn't cross for security...and then cross it sometime later. Fear can be a powerful motivating factor. If you haven't followed up with these people over the years to see if the didn't begin to move back in the other direction, then you really haven't proven anything. The thing is that we get used to tyranny. I remember when I was really put off having to take my shoes off at the airport. Now that doesn't even phase me. When John McCain came to Nashville in 2008 as part of his campaign, I went there to confront him along with some other Paul supporters. As I prepared to go through security I opened up my portfolio like a good little sheeple. The security officer praised me by saying "See? Someone who knows what to do." Oh sure, people were upset at first over the porn scanners and pat downs. But how much active resistance is going on? And you know what? I knew the porn scanners were coming back in 2002. Folks didn't believe me then. Now some of those same folks see it as no big deal. I see people here at RPF say "Why should I care if they see my naked body? I've got nothing to hide." It's called conditioning.

Here's the deal. If you really believe the only thing between you and cancer is a rectal screening then you're likely to bend over and drop your pants. And if you really believe that the only thing between you and a fiery plane crash is all passengers being properly "screened" then you're likely to submit to the screening. And that's true even if you told yourself years ago that you wouldn't.

Now you might say "Well you take your shoes off at airports and open up your portfolio so you've been conditioned too". And to an extent that's true. But I don't ever feel that any of this is needed for my safety. Contrast that with the talk radio host I heard the other day complaining that a foreign airport didn't make him take off his belt. These people don't just want you in the cage. They want you to demand it.

Understanding how bad the loss of liberty is a decent starting point. That's where I started on my quest to understand 9/11. But I didn't STOP there. If you don't at least go to step 1, if you don't at least understand 9/11 was totally preventable (and the head of the 9/11 commission said that....only long after the report was released), then you will accept some level of tyranny. That's just how the human mind works.



Beyond that if people were awoken to the "truth" slowly then you are probably right anarchy is not a sure thing but that is unlikely. If the truth were to fully come out it would be a situation where a large proportion of the population's views were changed overnight and anarchy would more than likely follow. Hell the problems after Katrina were minimal until the people lost faith that the officials were actually going to get things under control and then the looting started. What happens when an entire country looses faith in all military police and government personnel at the same time. Following anarchy is a ??? but the most likely outcome is a clinched fist dictator who takes charge and squashes dissent. I just don't believe that people will be able to separate the people responsible from the people in charge.

My point is we need to encourage liberty not push an agenda that would lead us to anarchy.


I'm sure you're familiar with "oathkeepers" right? It's imperative to have an organization like that so that the people realize that there are police and military who are just as concerned about what's going on in their government as they are.



RP has said that the governments favorite tool is fear and i believe if we wish to discard that government fear is not the weapon we should use.

I'm not using fear. Exposing truth is not fear. Truth is love. Truth is freedom. Truth dispels fear. Truth needs no excuse and no defense. It is the most potent weapon in the liberty arsenal. In a way you are fear mongering yourself. You are spreading fear over what would happen if too many people knew the "truth". Why do you have so little faith in your fellow Americans?

Now, here's something else you are not considering. Let's suppose the government is totally evil and not just compartmentalized like I think it is. Are you really doing people a service by hoping they stay in the dark lest they spread "anarchy"? If things are really bad (and they are on multiple fronts) then it's time for individual people to learn to be self sufficient, get out of debt, grow a garden, learn to live on the land etc. You aren't helping their "liberty" by letting them stay in ignorance. Not their longterm liberty anyway. You mentioned Katrina? Well it wasn't people knowing the truth about the government that caused the chaos. It was the desperation of their actual situation. Had folks known from jump street that FEMA was full of crap and better prepared individually for an emergency things wouldn't have been so bad.

[jmdrake]

Anarchy isn't the worst thing but it is unsustainable and more than likely the result would be 1000% in the opposite direction towards an authoritarian dictator. Once again the promise of security will eliminate liberty.

You don't understand. The promise of security already has eliminated liberty. The truth shows how fake that promise is. Really, your fear mongering over anarchy is unfounded. If it wasn't you'd see a lot of 9/11 truthers running around shooting cops and blowing things up.

[Mckarnin]

I agree with the gist of what you are saying. A lot of folks in the freedom movement expend most of their energy promoting the least universal things that they stand for. I saw it over and over again in 08' election. RP folks would have someone really listening and engaged in a discussion of the constitution or economy and then rather than shaking hands and cementing the relationship they would launch into the most fringe stuff that some among us believe and totally lose the person. In retrospect the person would be called a blind member of the "sheeple" when in reality they were just a regular person, only willing to expend a moderate amount of mental energy and change their mind a little bit in one sitting.



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0EkswN1OWgc/TSAozc9vyJI/AAAAAAAACHM/xOzygBkhelY/s400/theMatrix.womanInRed.jpg

I know that many people within this website like to make references to V for Vendetta and also the Matrix so i decided to use something from the matrix to express my concern over current political discourse. I fear that we are being distracted by ideas of an easy resolution and distracted from what is actually important.

What happens is the birther thing was proven. Obama is thrown out but after what a 1 year mess of hearings in congress then Biden takes over. And then there is the normal election and we still face all of the other challengers.

The only thing the birther thing accomplishes is wasting our efforts which could be re-appropriated to more useful endeavors and alienating people on the fence who think its dirty politics. It is limited benefit with a huge downside if proven wrong.

The same is true about the 9/11 truther stuff it is playing with a live hand grenade. If the truthers are proven right the country will literally go into anarchy. What happens after that is anyone's guess. And if proven wrong it takes away from every single argument you support from that point on. Once again huge risk limited reward.

I am not saying that these issues should not be investigated because when arguing between informed and uninformed we should always error to the side of the informed but let someone else worry about it.

The thing that got me interested in Paul in 2007 was the fact that he wasn't attacking anyone he was explaining his beliefs and attempting to persuade people to his positions. I am not a religious person but the only thing that i think properly exemplifies my opinion on this is the serenity prayer.

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."

We need to focus on convincing people that Paul is the best candidate not that everyone else is bad on an individual basis. Build a pedestal to put your candidate on don't try to dig 20 holes to bury everyone else.

[Mahkato]

People need to remember that minds are changed very slowly. One person at a time, many conversations. Don't screw it up by dropping giant turds on them the day you meet them. Let them find those turds on their own.

[jmdrake]

I agree with the gist of what you are saying. A lot of folks in the freedom movement expend most of their energy promoting the least universal things that they stand for. I saw it over and over again in 08' election. RP folks would have someone really listening and engaged in a discussion of the constitution or economy and then rather than shaking hands and cementing the relationship they would launch into the most fringe stuff that some among us believe and totally lose the person. In retrospect the person would be called a blind member of the "sheeple" when in reality they were just a regular person, only willing to expend a moderate amount of mental energy and change their mind a little bit in one sitting.

My experience in 2008 and in today is that it's not the truthers but the anti truthers that typically stir things up. This is the second thread about 9/11 truth started by an anti truther in general politics (violation of forum rules) in one day. In 2007/2008 I and many other truthers didn't say jack about 9/11 until a bunch of chicken littles started running around saying "Don't talk about 9/11! Don't mix messages!" But even not mixing messages isn't good enough for some people like the OP. He's not just saying "Don't talk about 9/11 and Ron Paul". He's "Don't talk about it at all. If you exercise your first amendment rights our collective heads might explode". Or how about posts like "I wish all truthers would spend their energy doing X,Y or Z". Well guess what? It's not YOUR energy to dictate! Really sometimes I think my biggest waste of energy is the "liberty politics" stuff I do. But I do in anyway in the hope that it will really pay off.


People need to remember that minds are changed very slowly. One person at a time, many conversations. Don't screw it up by dropping giant turds on them the day you meet them. Let them find those turds on their own.

Most truthers understand that. You gauge your audience. You roll out things a little at a time. You feel people out. A lot of people I've talked to instinctively knew something was wrong with 9/11 even before I said anything to them. Some people are more open to hearing about 9/11 than they are about hearing that Obama really isn't the best thing since sliced bread. Some folks are ready to hear that social security is really a bankrupt ponzi scheme or a host of other messages that people here think are just peachy to talk about. (Don't get me started on the U.S. civil war or all of the MLK bashing that goes on here). You have to know who you're talking to and what they are able hear and adjust your message accordingly. My black Muslim barber came to like Ron Paul after seeing a shot of him in an Alex Jones 9/11 conspiracy movie. And after seeing the Alex Jones film The Obama Deception he totally came around. Somehow I doubt that would have happened if his first exposure to the liberty movement was arguments over the civil rights act. In fact I'm sure of that.

[Working Poor]

I think Ron's strongest issue is the economy. This is the thing we must keep in the front. All the birther truther stuff just takes from his campaign and the ones who support him will try to tone truthers and birthers down.

[Krugerrand]

Interesting... I expected this thread was about the news story now on Yahoo -

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110428/ap_on_re_us/us_rfk_assassination

Convicted RFK assassin says girl manipulated him
Convicted assassin Sirhan Sirhan was manipulated by a seductive girl in a mind control plot to shoot Sen. Robert F. Kennedy, and his bullets did not kill the presidential candidate, lawyers for Sirhan said in new legal papers.
...
The papers point to a mysterious girl in a polka-dot dress as the controller who led Sirhan to fire a gun in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel. But the documents suggest a second person shot and killed Kennedy while using Sirhan as a diversion.
...
Witnesses talked of seeing such a female running from the hotel shouting, "We shot Kennedy." But she was never identified, and amid the chaos of the scene, descriptions were conflicting.
...
Under hypnosis, he remembered meeting the girl that night and becoming smitten with her. He said she led him to the pantry.

"I am trying to figure out how to hit on her.... That's all that I can think about," he says in one interview cited in the documents. "I was fascinated with her looks .... She never said much. It was very erotic. I was consumed by her. She was a seductress with an unspoken unavailability."
...
The lawyer said he is convinced that Sirhan was a victim of a mind control project such as those used by the CIA in the 1960s. He is seeking an evidentiary hearing to exonerate Sirhan in Kennedy's killing.

But - we know the US intelligence agencies would never do anything bad. :rolleyes:

[Travlyr]

Really sometimes I think my biggest waste of energy is the "liberty politics" stuff I do. But I do in anyway in the hope that it will really pay off.

It will. Keep posting. ;)

We are making inroads.

Liberty vs. Tyranny

Liberty is "Live and Let Live"
Tyranny is "Obey, or Prison"