Are private schools much better than public?

[nicoleeann]

I'm all for the dismantling of public schools and believe that every parent must take full responsibility for their child education. I dont feel that todays private schools differ much in the things they teach than public schools. i went to both.
I had very similar subjects which were alot of wasted time: foreign language, excessive history, excessive english and literature, excessive science, etc. as far as i'm concerned a child can finish all the book learning they need by age 13 or 14 and then they should start learning valuable trades and skills that they are already gifted in. Actually they should also be learning trades and skills while they are still young too, but once they reach that age that will be the main focus.
i believe that these are important studies for kids to learn: basic reading, writing, and arithmetic, hunting, survival skills, technology, economics, basic science, self-defense, and physical sports. This next list is more of a hobby list unless the child shows obvious talent in the area and you believe there is a future for them: art, music, history, advanced science, english, foreign language, literature, social science, advanced math.
so much time is wasted in our childrens lives both at public and many private schools.
There are a few areas where i have noticed private schools do much better than public:
lower tolerance of bad behaviour and more willingness to expel and higher standards for grades.

[heavenlyboy34]

"art, music, history, advanced science, english, foreign language, literature, social science, advanced math." I can see advanced science and math and social sciences, but those other subjects are important to understanding the culture around us and the world in general.

[UtahApocalypse]

My fiancee and I have been seriously discussing homeschooling once we have children.

[eduardo89]

I went to private schools all my life and in my experience they're much better, or at least the ones I went to. They actually address parents' concerns, are flexible, and they care whether your child is learning or not. I'm never sending my kids to government schools.

[Kludge]

Statistics show minor gains for students who go to private schools which are negated because higher-earning families statistically have better-performing (academically) children and higher-earning families are statistically more likely to send their kid to a private school. Private schools are useful to get your kid out of an otherwise-hostile community or poor local school district.

I can personally say federal regulations on the school I went to was bad for everyone involved, especially in my senior year of high school. We were forced to fill out our entire day even if we didn't need the credits, and it was almost entirely "fluff" classes, so I compensated by skipping half the year (which the MI state gov't hasn't yet made illegal), but it was okay because the classes I was interested in were online and I log in from home.

You'll get many here who'll compare sending your kid to public school to child abuse, but the experience the kids, parents, and educators will have all varies greatly from district to district (and state to state). My experience in public school a few years ago was excellent aside from the issue of needing to fill my entire day with classes.

Parents need to look at the district, read the reviews, and be active in their kids' education. Email the principal and school board, and go to meetings. If the district is poor, look for private alternatives (or move). If there's nothing good in the area, consider home-schooling. Public education may really be the best route for your kids' education.

If we "must" educate all kids, let the private market in (Obama's admin has actually been allowing charter schools with far fewer federal regulations to pop up in the last few years). If we "must" have public education, make it as local as possible.

[Ethen]

Hi nicoleeann,
Yes, private schools are better than public schools.
In private school you pay extra so your child will get friendly atmosphere and good learning.

[Romulus]

It depends. Around here the public schools are actually very good. The private schools (Catholic) costs a fortune and IMO and your kids up just as indoctrinated, if not worse thanks to the religious dogma thrown in.

So our little town is somewhat divided.. you have the private school elitists snobs and the public schools kids... and a few homeschoolers in the mix too...

[Dr.3D]

I just wish the public schools would quit with the humanist indoctrination. I went to private schools and there was none of that.

[oyarde]

Where I live , 10 k per year per kid of property tax money for public school . That is too much. Period.

[dannno]

Hi nicoleeann,
Yes, private schools are better than public schools.
In private school you pay extra so your child will get friendly atmosphere and good learning.

Yep, and you get to pay for school twice..

[dannno]

I just wish the public schools would quit with the humanist indoctrination. I went to private schools and there was none of that.

Ya screw people.

[mello]

I've been trying to find a story that was posted on the forums a couple years ago about the New York Education system. From what I remembered, three quarters of the children in New York go to public schools. The other third goes to private Catholic schools. What struck me about the story was that the public schools had a bureaucracy of around 6,000 people to running things while the Private schools has something like 7-8 people. If anyone has any idea of where that story is, it would be awesome if you could repost it here.

[heavenlyboy34]

Some public schools are good, but in general public schools don't have the profit motive to maintain high standards and please parents (customers). It was only in the last decade or so that my state school superintendent came up with a standardized test (AIMS) that is required for graduation. Even at that, important subjects like history, english/literature, and logic are poorly taught. The DoE (state and national) is also a big obstacle for teachers and students to overcome.

[oyarde]

Some public schools are good, but in general public schools don't have the profit motive to maintain high standards and please parents (customers). It was only in the last decade or so that my state school superintendent came up with a standardized test (AIMS) that is required for graduation. Even at that, important subjects like history, english/literature, and logic are poorly taught. The DoE (state and national) is also a big obstacle for teachers and students to overcome.

Just my opinion , to make any real improvements , it needs scrapped . Time to start over , costs too much.

[heavenlyboy34]

Just my opinion , to make any real improvements , it needs scrapped . Time to start over , costs too much.
Agreed. :cool:

[Sam I am]

Private schools tend to have better test scores because they like to pick and choose the highest performers to admit, but when you adjust for demographics and class, public schools are just about the same as private schools, if not better.

[libertarian4321]

If a kid is bright and motivated, he'll do fine in public school (assuming it isn't in a shitty neighborhood filled with crack dealers).

I went to a public school and did just fine, and did better than all the kids from the local private school (who came to the public school after grade 8).

There is nothing magic about private school. On average, kids who go to private schools do better, but that is because they are selective and public school have to take every loser who comes through the doors (in other words, kids who go to public schools tend to be better than average from the start).

So I wouldn't spend a ton of money on a private school unless it was something truly elite (e.g. Andover, Exeter, Groton).

[LibertyEagle]

I had very similar subjects which were alot of wasted time: foreign language, excessive history, excessive english and literature, excessive science, etc. as far as i'm concerned a child can finish all the book learning they need by age 13 or 14 and then they should start learning valuable trades and skills that they are already gifted in.

I don't agree at all. How can a child learn all the history and science, for example, that they need to learn by age 13 or 14? If it is the real stuff, history is so very important. If our kids do not learn that, they will repeat the mistakes of the past. And science-- this is largely where new entrepreneurial ideas stem from. Our country is going to have to rebuild. For that, we need people very educated in science and math.

As far as choosing a trade for our kids that early in life and just training them in that, I'm sorry, but that sounds a great deal like the Dept of Education's Outcome-Based Education program. It creates drones.

One of the reasons the education system used to be so successful in the U.S. is because we gave our children a liberal education. ("education that enlarges and disciplines the mind and makes it master of its own powers, irrespective of the particular business or profession one may follow.").

Unfortunately, our schools became dumbed down to teach to the lowest common denominator and started placing more emphasis on a child's feelings, rather than giving them the failing grade they deserved; amongst other things. It has gotten so bad that college has become more of what High School used to be in this country.

[psi2941]

Hi and I'm currently in south korea. When I left for South Korea, they told me I will be teaching Math in English but once i got here it was a different story(English was my worst subject in school). Anyways after really seeing how the Korean Education system is, i'm really proud of the American school system.
This is the typical schedule of my students.
Sun: freetime in the morning around 2:00pm to 9:00pm private schools called hagwon (about 50% of the school population)
Mon: Must be by school by 7:45 AM then they get to leave by 9:00PM about 10-20% leave around 5:30PM with parent permission to go to private schools hagwon. If your in 12th grade you stay in school until 11:00PM.
Tue: same
Wed: same
Thur: same
Fri: same
Sat: Every two weeks the school has school from 7:45 AM to 2:00PM then again after school 50% of the kids go to hagwon. Then the off week, most parents send their kids to hagwon.

When their done with 10th-11th grade they will master calculus 1. When their done with 11th-12th grade they will have mastered calculus 2 with some minor in discrete mathematics and linear algebra.

Since my job is just to talk to them its really hard, because when i ask like "what do you like to do during your freetime?" or "what did you do during the weekend?" most replies are "study, read, hagwon, sleep"

so i'm proud of the US system somewhat.

[fisharmor]

I don't agree at all. How can a child learn all the history and science, for example, that they need to learn by age 13 or 14?
The flaw in this line of argumentation is that the only people claiming that education should be complete at some point are fools.
Education stops when you die. If it stops earlier, you are uneducated.

There are two big problems with expecting that children are going to learn all the history they need in a classroom.
First, it implies heavily that the classroom is the only appropriate place to learn history, and implies heavily that the only people who have any business investigating history are historians.
Second, it invites the hearer of this official history not to apply other disciplines to what we know about history.
Like, for instance, logic (which is a subject not taught in any grade school anywhere, AFAIK).
Throw this argument at a graduate of even a good private school, and let me know how far it gets:
"West Virginia seceded from Virginia in clear contradiction to standing Virginia law. There was no standing law preventing the south from seceding from the Union. Therefore, anti-secessionist arguments in favor of the North are invalid."


If it is the real stuff, history is so very important. If our kids do not learn that, they will repeat the mistakes of the past.I agree. Show me a history classroom which is teaching that fiat currency has an average lifespan of 40 years, or one that will even mention the Great Schism (let alone discuss its significance), and I might see some utility in classrooms. (I never heard either term in school.)


And science-- this is largely where new entrepreneurial ideas stem from.What science is responsible for Facebook? What science is being done to determine the proper smart phone interface?
On the contrary, science is used to kill innovation and make our lives worse. In my short lifetime, science has helped make it so we can't buy easy bake ovens for our kids, we can't get our clothes clean, and we can't remove our own shit from our houses.
This is the science they're learning in school - junk science. Just enough disconnected facts to bore them to tears, and get them to allow "scientists" to make their decisions for them.
Some of us leave the classroom and go on to learn some real science. But again, it's in spite of the classroom, not because of it.


Our country is going to have to rebuild. For that, we need people very educated in science and math.Rebuild from what? There are an awful lot of people out there who are doing plenty of science. Check YouTube some time for the crazy crap going on there. Ever hear of a plasma speaker? Or home-built induction heaters? Know how many people make coilguns or Farnsworth Fusors in their spare time, well removed from their time in the classroom?

Let me tell you a story that happened a couple months ago.
I have a friend who's a mechanical engineer, and I have an industrial sewing machine which needs a food pedal.
I also have zero - zero as in it didn't happen - classroom experience with electronics, electrical work, or anything to do with electricity other than the part in chemistry where they talked about electron sharing in metals.
The motor that needs to run this machine is too big to use most foot pedals because they're not capable of passing that many amps. (I did not learn this in school.)
The type of foot rheostat that would handle it is too expensive.
So I decided to look into building one. (I did not learn to build things in school. I did not learn to research how to build things in school.)
I had some resistance wire from an old dryer sitting around, and knew that it was the same material used in rheostats. (I did not learn this in school.)
So I started to design one and consulted with my engineer friend, who DID learn this stuff in school.
He immediately started going into the math involved in building one.
My response: "Why don't I just hook it up to a low-voltage circuit and measure the drop in voltage across a couple lengths, and use that to extrapolate how long it needs to be?"

Yes, we would both have arrived at the same conclusion. He wanted to take a set of assumptions and work with them. I wanted to do the homework on it. I submit to you that my approach results in more science being learned.


As far as choosing a trade for our kids that early in life and just training them in that, I'm sorry, but that sounds a great deal like the Dept of Education's Outcome-Based Education program. It creates drones. I'm not in favor of choosing our childrens destinies. I'm in favor of showing them how to learn, not telling them what to learn, and letting them decide.

I'm a computer programmer. I have never used any math more advanced than basic algebra in my job. My children are going to learn that they don't need more than that unless they're designing rockets or trying to develop a toilet that gets around federal regulations.

I've never had a course in electronics in my life, but last Friday I replaced 90 cents of components on my TV's power supply and avoided a $250 repair bill. My children are going to learn that they don't need school to do things like that.

Last week my 4-yo daughter told me she would be interested in helping me keep bees. WTF do I know about bees from school? Nothing - but we're going to do it in a year or two, and in the process she's going to learn woodworking, painting, how to set a concrete footer, eusocial behavior in insects, management of livestock, first aid for stings, different types of sugars, and probably a lot of cooking and even the basics of fermentation.
None of which she would get from a school. If she learned any of those individual things, it would be a disconnected bit of trivia.

She will not learn everything she needs to know by 13. But she will, at that point, know how to find out what she needs to know.

School is an impediment to education. The sooner we learn that, the sooner we'll be able to rebuild.

[Romulus]

Really, public schools can be good and bad. The real problem though, is the PARENTS.

[BUSHLIED]

It depends. Around here the public schools are actually very good. The private schools (Catholic) costs a fortune and IMO and your kids up just as indoctrinated, if not worse thanks to the religious dogma thrown in.

So our little town is somewhat divided.. you have the private school elitists snobs and the public schools kids... and a few homeschoolers in the mix too...

I agree. I went to private schools and they mostly just have better campuses with better security...the smaller student to teacher ratio is about the only aspect that is a net positive for student since they theoretically have more access to their professors and can establish relationships with them. That being said, the private universities are also about $$$ and I think they over-charge the student for what they are getting...you are essentially buying "prestige."

[squarepusher]

when do they find time to practice Starcraft?

Hi and I'm currently in south korea. When I left for South Korea, they told me I will be teaching Math in English but once i got here it was a different story(English was my worst subject in school). Anyways after really seeing how the Korean Education system is, i'm really proud of the American school system.
This is the typical schedule of my students.
Sun: freetime in the morning around 2:00pm to 9:00pm private schools called hagwon (about 50% of the school population)
Mon: Must be by school by 7:45 AM then they get to leave by 9:00PM about 10-20% leave around 5:30PM with parent permission to go to private schools hagwon. If your in 12th grade you stay in school until 11:00PM.
Tue: same
Wed: same
Thur: same
Fri: same
Sat: Every two weeks the school has school from 7:45 AM to 2:00PM then again after school 50% of the kids go to hagwon. Then the off week, most parents send their kids to hagwon.

When their done with 10th-11th grade they will master calculus 1. When their done with 11th-12th grade they will have mastered calculus 2 with some minor in discrete mathematics and linear algebra.

Since my job is just to talk to them its really hard, because when i ask like "what do you like to do during your freetime?" or "what did you do during the weekend?" most replies are "study, read, hagwon, sleep"

so i'm proud of the US system somewhat.

[RabbitMan]

My step-mother is a Math teacher at a Private Catholic Highschool. I've been there and I've seen the curriculum and the students they push out. I can attest that my public education was the same, if not better. Really people, if we are to earn the respect of the mainstream, stop the attempt to demagogue public schooling. The hyperbole commonly used on this subject around these forums does no one any good, and is wrong. There may be problems with the system, but it is nothing a parent can't fix by staying active in their kid's education. There are many opportunities for getting ahead intellectually, and for a much, much lower cost.

I'm not arguing the morality of this subject. What I'm doing is arguing against the fallacy that public schools are by default worse than private, when I've definitely seen evidence to the contrary.

[heavenlyboy34]

My step-mother is a Math teacher at a Private Catholic Highschool. I've been there and I've seen the curriculum and the students they push out. I can attest that my public education was the same, if not better. Really people, if we are to earn the respect of the mainstream, stop the attempt to demagogue public schooling. The hyperbole commonly used on this subject around these forums does no one any good, and is wrong. There may be problems with the system, but it is nothing a parent can't fix by staying active in their kid's education. There are many opportunities for getting ahead intellectually, and for a much, much lower cost.

I'm not arguing the morality of this subject. What I'm doing is arguing against the fallacy that public schools are by default worse than private, when I've definitely seen evidence to the contrary.

Good point. Even John Taylor Gatto argues that public school was not always mediocre, and that American public schools used to consistently turn out highly educated people.

[LibertyRevolution]

I went to public school, it sucked.
I didn't like the fact that teachers wanted to teach answers more than explain why, how, or the significance.
I was always more interested in the how and whys...

[Dr.3D]

Really, public schools can be good and bad. The real problem though, is the PARENTS.

Exactly, the parents need to inform their children as to how to see through the government propaganda. The students need to know, it's just a matter of answering the questions properly, all the while knowing those answers are incorrect but necessary to pass to the next grade.

[Hotchney]

I think something important to think about is the self-selection that occurs when people choose different schools. I think this self-selection leads to the formation of stronger communities and better relationships, etc. due to shared values, interests, traits, etc.

Choice is key here. I don't know if public schools are much worse but I think the whole education market would be significantly improved with competition and choice and I think there would be many "positive externalities" from the self-selection component.

[R3volutionJedi]

I go to public school...I'm in high school.....I know I want to try homeschooling.

[Maximus]

In general private is better than public, you will find exceptions.

[Jake Ralston]

Really, public schools can be good and bad. The real problem though, is the PARENTS.


Exactly, the parents need to inform their children as to how to see through the government propaganda. The students need to know, it's just a matter of answering the questions properly, all the while knowing those answers are incorrect but necessary to pass to the next grade.

Yes. For me it's not so much a matter of Public or Private school. The important thing is that I take a vested interest in my childs education. The days of sending your child off to school and leaving it at that are over. With the internet especially, we need to be guiding our children's education beyond that of any school system. That means taking time out of your day to sit down and make sure they understand history, literature, mathematics and more.

I'll be damned if my child gets fed any government or religious propaghanda coming through the establishment under the guise of public or private education.

[Romulus]

A lot of my neighbors went to the private Catholic school here. And let me tell you, they are just as ignorant as anyone else. Ignorance exists no matter where a child learns, and will vary wildly.

Was Ron public schooled?

[Wesker1982]

I went to a Catholic school from preschool until the 5th grade.

When I went to public school in the 6th grade, we were learning what I was already taught in the 5th and even 4th grade in private school. I was insanely bored when I got to middle school. Grade wise I did well in the 6th grade, but when I got to 7th grade the boredom almost killed me and I started to get C's D's and F's (I was an A and B student in private school, which was harder). I dropped out of school when I was 14 lol.

Academically, it was much better than public schools. As far as indoctrination goes, it was probably equal.

So I guess if you are going to indoctrinate your kids, sending them to a private school might be less bad.

[emazur]

I've been trying to find a story that was posted on the forums a couple years ago about the New York Education system. From what I remembered, three quarters of the children in New York go to public schools. The other third goes to private Catholic schools. What struck me about the story was that the public schools had a bureaucracy of around 6,000 people to running things while the Private schools has something like 7-8 people. If anyone has any idea of where that story is, it would be awesome if you could repost it here.

I'm pretty sure that was on one of Stossel's shows, though possibly he has also written articles that used this.

[nicoleeann]

I don't agree at all. How can a child learn all the history and science, for example, that they need to learn by age 13 or 14? If it is the real stuff, history is so very important. If our kids do not learn that, they will repeat the mistakes of the past. And science-- this is largely where new entrepreneurial ideas stem from. Our country is going to have to rebuild. For that, we need people very educated in science and math.

As far as choosing a trade for our kids that early in life and just training them in that, I'm sorry, but that sounds a great deal like the Dept of Education's Outcome-Based Education program. It creates drones.

One of the reasons the education system used to be so successful in the U.S. is because we gave our children a liberal education. ("education that enlarges and disciplines the mind and makes it master of its own powers, irrespective of the particular business or profession one may follow.").

Unfortunately, our schools became dumbed down to teach to the lowest common denominator and started placing more emphasis on a child's feelings, rather than giving them the failing grade they deserved; amongst other things. It has gotten so bad that college has become more of what High School used to be in this country.

well the main point of school should be to make children able to take care of themselves by the time they are adults or soon after 18. when an 18 year old graduates for highschool they do not yet have the specific skills necessary to do that. i think that they should be ready by then. i sure wish i was. science, history, english, and the like are important only to a certain point in most peoples lives. if a student spends an hour a day in each subject for 12 years that equals out to be around 2,160 hours spent learning that subject. i really do not feel that a needed 2,160 hours of studying science to benefit me in my profession as a highly-skilled prep cook. Those specific students who are naturally good at science or have a real passion and are willing to work hard would definitely benefit from the extensive hours. But many of us simply are not good at it and it is a waste of time for us.
i dont believe that the children would be stuck in the trades picked for them but they could try out several until they found the right fit. If they get started on it early such as 14 years old, even if they make the wrong choice they can change a few years later and still be young. and they wont have a worthless feeling because they still have some actual skills to get a job if they need one. I don't believe that learning valuable and much needed (such as technology and making and fixing things instead of degrees such as philosophy and social studies) skills at an early age creates drones. Quite the opposite: i believe that our current system of endless notetaking and repeated subjects and memorizing trivial things for years and years with no end in site it seems to creates drones. I just cant help but believe that most of us who are fairly successful could have gotten there alot faster without the current system in place. and your last paragraph i agree with entirely.

[fisharmor]

A lot of my neighbors went to the private Catholic school here. And let me tell you, they are just as ignorant as anyone else. Ignorance exists no matter where a child learns, and will vary wildly.
I think the pertinent question there is: "Do they know the basic tenets of the Roman Catholic faith?"
The faith-based private schools I've been around tend to push two things:
1) The kids will get religious instruction
2) There's also some classical liberal education, which is basically public school curriculum plus some Latin, which is also done to reinforce #1

So if they can tell you why they say Christ is of one substance with the Father, then the school will probably declare success.


Was Ron public schooled? My Dad's 3 years younger than RP, and judging by my parents' educations (both also grew up in PA), it seems like standards were higher, but schools obviously suffered from the problems inherent in pedagogy to begin with.