Obama releases birth certificate!

[dbill27]

Was just watching cnn and they said Obama has made his original birth certificate officially available instead of the live birth form or whatever he had shown previously.

I'm predicting this does nothing to stop most of the birthers, I've been saying all along that no matter what he showed they won't believe it.

[TheState]

Obama having a press conference at 945am about it.

[TNforPaul45]

Was just watching cnn and they said Obama has made his original birth certificate officially available instead of the live birth form or whatever he had shown previously.

I'm predicting this does nothing to stop most of the birthers, I've been saying all along that no matter what he showed they won't believe it.

Not sure if this is true since most of the news stories that ive just gotten through reading said that not EVEN obama can get access to any certificate he might have now that Hawaii is strictly enforcing its privacy policy.

[sofia]

why should we believe it? Until an independent expert on the matter can review the document, this changes nothing.

[aGameOfThrones]

It took Trump! Now, let's talk about his father's citizenship that pass to him at birth.

[dbill27]

Trump campaign over? None of the birther arguments were ever based on reality and fact, so to many this will mean nothing.

[FrankRep]

If Obama actually releases the real birth certificate, no one will listen to the birthers anyway. They can join the flat earthers.

[dbill27]

why should we believe it? Until an independent expert on the matter can review the document, this changes nothing.


Called it, nothing is good enough for the birthers.

[Johnnymac]

link?

[FrankRep]

Called it, nothing is good enough for the birthers.

sofia doesn't represent the "birther" movement.

[aGameOfThrones]

Called it, nothing is good enough for the birthers.

What's wrong with what sofia said? 2 million to not show it, but now he will?

[Sola_Fide]

The birther movement is stupid imo.

[dbill27]

sofia doesn't represent the "birther" movement.

She summed up the argument though.

[bubbleboy]

My preditction is that the anti birthers come out bithn, over those who care about transparency, before he shows it. I want to see YOUR birth certificate dbill27. I want to see ALL OF YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATES because IM CRAAAZZZYYY> BHHHAAAAAA

[S.Shorland]

Well if it IS true,Trump will be a laughing stock.

[dbill27]

What's wrong with what sofia said? 2 million to not show it, but now he will?

2 million in campaign legal fees, not 2 million hiding the birth certificate.

[FrankRep]

The Official Birth Certificate (http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf)


SOURCE:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf

[aGameOfThrones]

2 million in campaign legal fees, not 2 million hiding the birth certificate.

Lol.

[dbill27]

Lol.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110412120619AAON7BA

[aGameOfThrones]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110412120619AAON7BA

Lol

[dbill27]

Lol

Lol

[Legend1104]

Savage already said yesterday on his show that it means nothing because "the government can easily forge a birth certificate." it will never stop.

[aGameOfThrones]

Lol

Exactly.

[dbill27]

Savage already said yesterday on his show that it means nothing because "the government can easily forge a birth certificate." it will never stop.

Exactly, so if your never going to believe anything that disproves your argument then there is no point. Why keep asking why something hasn't been released if you aren't going to believe it when it is released?

[Sola_Fide]

The Official Birth Certificate (http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf)


SOURCE:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf

Yeah! Trump lost his main issue now. His candidacy is dead.

[S.Shorland]

He still comes from a lineage of CIA people though.

[jmdrake]

If Obama actually releases the real birth certificate, no one will listen to the birthers anyway. They can join the flat earthers.


sofia doesn't represent the "birther" movement.

^This

And here it is:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/04/27/president-obamas-long-form-birth-certificate

Trump's campaign is toast. (Unless die hards reward him for making the emperor blink). And hopefully the arguments at RPF over this will come to an end. After all Ron Paul isn't involved in this one way or another.

Now if someone could get the FBI to release certain phone records from April 2001......

[dbill27]

Yeah! Trump lost his main issue now. His candidacy is dead.

Wonder, if trumps investigators that don't exist are the ones who found it lol?

[angelatc]

Called it, nothing is good enough for the birthers.

There won't be a consensus among experts, either. For every person who says the birth certificate is real, they'll be another one who says that it is forged.

[S.Shorland]

Everytime Trump goes on television from now until the day he dies,he will be greeted with 'Aloha'.

[pcosmar]

Meh,,

At least it is a distraction that Dr. Paul won't have to deal with. and he can focus on dismembering him on his record.
;)

[angelatc]

Yeah! Trump lost his main issue now. His candidacy is dead.

He's still got the school records to investigate. I still wonder why Obama didn't release the damned thing as a matter of routine?

[TXcarlosTX]

good! now they can stop asking ron about it. lets move on

[Romulus]

There won't be a consensus among experts, either. For every person who says the birth certificate is real, they'll be another one who says that it is forged.

Yep it will continue to be a worthless, distracting controversy with no end... I guess there's a shred of hope that it will proved to be fake and we can repeal everything, but that isnt likely to happen in this day and age.

[Stary Hickory]

No this has to be good enough and let it be that. There is nothign more that can reasonably be done or should be done. Why it took this amount of turmoil for Obama to simply show compliance with the Constitution is beyond me. Two million dollars fighting this why? Utterly ridiculous..I guess it was pure ego.

[jmdrake]

why should we believe it? Until an independent expert on the matter can review the document, this changes nothing.

The part about it not being verified is true. But I assume experts (and non experts) are attempting to verify this as we speak. For instance people are probably trying to research the attending physician. I assume Obama knew this and wouldn't have released it if the information was not rock solid. So something has indeed changed. The burden of proof has shifted back to the birthers. (And yes I know there are people who don't understand how burden shifting works in the law and think the burden was always on the birthers, but that's not true). So for me this is now a total non issue (and it never was a big one) until someone comes up with a plausible rebuttal.

[erowe1]

why should we believe it? Until an independent expert on the matter can review the document, this changes nothing.

And even after multiple independent experts review it and confirm its genuineness, it still won't change anything, because no matter how many hoops he jumps through, there will still be a handful of self-proclaimed internet-educated "independent experts" who will think it's fake, and who will continue to set the bar just beyond whatever Obama has done. These are people who somehow manage to interpret the words "natural born citizen" in the Constitution as though they mean "someone who has done whatever arbitrary thing I decide he must do to prove to my satisfaction that he's a natural born citizen."

[aGameOfThrones]

Trump is giving a victory speech.

[angelatc]

Yep it will continue to be a worthless, distracting controversy with no end... I guess there's a shred of hope that it will proved to be fake and we can repeal everything, but that isnt likely to happen in this day and age.

It could have "FAKE" stamped across it and the media would ignore it anyway. You should check out his draft registration card. I'm neither a birther nor a conspiracy theorist, but I do believe that Obama "forgot" to fill out that mandatory registration thing, and his team went back and tried to "fix" it years later. I know I don't think like most people do, but I could forgive a kid who didn't sign up. I can't forgive a man who won't accept responsibility for his actions.

[dbill27]

Trump is taking credit for getting rid of this issue, good god.

[Stary Hickory]

I a glad the issue is done now and not breaking a year from now. IMO this is good. Someone explain why Obama fought this so hard?

[dbill27]

I a glad the issue is done now and not breaking a year from now. IMO this is good. Someone explain why Obama fought this so hard?

Isn't it obvious, how bad do a lot of republicans look today?

[FrankRep]

Obama should have dropped this BOMBSHELL if Donald Trump got the GOP nomination.

dude...

[aGameOfThrones]

I a glad the issue is done now and not breaking a year from now. IMO this is good. Someone explain why Obama fought this so hard?

Because he could not find a good forger, duh.

[jmdrake]

Trump is taking credit for getting rid of this issue, good god.

http://www.techimo.com/forum/attachments/imo-community/23034d1265500663-silly-stuff-first-i-like.jpg

Let's see how the right wing talk radio types handle this and how Trump does in the polls. Trump has to try to spin this the best way he can.

[Krugerrand]

Well if it IS true,Trump will be a laughing stock.

Trump is a laughing stock regardless of Obama's birth certificate.

[erowe1]

I a glad the issue is done now and not breaking a year from now. IMO this is good. Someone explain why Obama fought this so hard?

Fought it how hard? Did he make any personal sacrifices of any kind to avoid doing this?

[erowe1]

Obama should have dropped this BOMBSHELL if Donald Trump got the GOP nomination.

dude...

I have to admit, the timing is interesting. I wonder if the reason he didn't save this for later is that he already has something else planned to occupy the news in 2012.

[K466]

Interesting. Can't wait to see it.

I think Obama was born in the US, I just don't necessarily think he qualifies as a natural born citizen. Such requires two citizen parents, as I understand. However, there are bigger fish to fry. I wish the birthers would focus on the Fed, the wars, and all the other crap.

[thetruthhurtsthefed]

Its not a matter that he produced the damn certificate! It is how it is/was originally obtained. one person verifies that this info is true?! Come on people! Ya great, it is a real certificate how the hell did you legally bullshit it? Trump should have added the process of obtaining a birth cert. in Hawaii...?

[erowe1]

Interesting. Can't wait to see it.


There's a link to it on Drudge.

[erowe1]

And even after multiple independent experts review it and confirm its genuineness, it still won't change anything, because no matter how many hoops he jumps through, there will still be a handful of self-proclaimed internet-educated "independent experts" who will think it's fake, and who will continue to set the bar just beyond whatever Obama has done. These are people who somehow manage to interpret the words "natural born citizen" in the Constitution as though they mean "someone who has done whatever arbitrary thing I decide he must do to prove to my satisfaction that he's a natural born citizen."


Its not a matter that he produced the damn certificate! It is how it is/was originally obtained. one person verifies that this info is true?! Come on people! Ya great, it is a real certificate how the hell did you legally bullshit it? Trump should have added the process of obtaining a birth cert. in Hawaii...?

See?

[NewRightLibertarian]

Wow! So it took them this long to fake a birth certificate ;)

[JohnGalt1225]

Good, now perhaps this stupid issue can go away...and take Trump with it.

[SilentBull]

If this is true, it's good news for us. That means Trump might be done!

[aGameOfThrones]

Wow! So it took them this long to fake a birth certificate ;)

It's the government, what do you expect?

[SilentBull]

Yeah, not sure why he would do it now. Bad strategy.

[Sarge]

According to the birth certificate his father was a 25 year old student from Kenya going to a University. It doesn't sound like his father was a US citizen according to the BC. Does the constitution say you just need one parent to be a US citizen? Does is allow for dual citizenship?

[aGameOfThrones]

According to the birth certificate his father was a 25 year old student from Kenya going to a University. It doesn't sound like his father was a US citizen according to the BC. Does the constitution say you just need one parent to be a US citizen? Does is allow for dual citizenship?

What was the understanding of Natural born citizen when it was inserted in the constitution? U.S citizenship didn't exist at the time, but dual citizenship would not make you a natural born citizen, as you would obviously have 2 allegiances.

[hugolp]

Trump is taking credit for getting rid of this issue, good god.

What else can he do? He has to smile and pretend he is happy with Obama releasing the certificate.

[S.Shorland]

Who DAT?
Donald Aloha Trump!

[Romulus]

The funny thing is that its overlayed on the same background as the other live birth one. lol

[jmdrake]

See?

No, not really. Your point that this "changes nothing" is proven false from the people who were questioning Obama's birth who aren't now. The fact that there are die hards out there just proves that in any statistical analysis there are outliers.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[stefank]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/27/donald-trump-obama-birth-_n_854267.html Trumps first response is it real?

[aGameOfThrones]

http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/M-476.pdf


Ok I get it Obama is likely a Citizen but what does Natural Born mean?

Ok, I get it now... natural born is about the allegiance of parents and having parents that are citizens, not geography...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf

So basically it doesn't matter whether the document posted by the White House is true because we already know where Obama's father was born and this document just confirms what we already know...

So the question is whether Obama's father was a naturalized U.S. Citizen at the time of Obama's birth in 1961...

Proceed to Chapter 4 on page 18:
http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/M-476.pdf

Ok.... I get it... by today's naturalization standards Obama Sr. would need to live in the U.S. for at least 5 years to be eligible for naturalization (we'll just forget about what the requirements were in 1961 for a moment)

In September 1959, Obama Sr. enrolled at the University of Hawaii at Manoa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Hawaii_at_Manoa) in Honolulu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honolulu) as the university's first African foreign student (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_student).[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama,_Sr.#cite_note-Maraniss-24) In 1959–1960 he lived across the street from the university at the Charles H. Atherton branch of the YMCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YMCA#Residences) at 1810 University Avenue;[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama,_Sr.#cite_note-Maraniss-24) in 1960–1961 he lived two miles southeast of the university at 625 11th Avenue in the Kaimuki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaimuki) neighborhood.[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama,_Sr.#cite_note-Hoover-25) In September 1960, Obama Sr. met Ann Dunham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham) in a basic Russian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language) course at the University of Hawaii.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama,_Sr.#cite_note-Maraniss-24) Dunham dropped out of the University of Hawaii after the fall 1960 semester after becoming pregnant, while Obama Sr. continued his education.


Ok... I get it... Obama Sr. wasn't married and was ineligible for naturalization which makes it about impossible by any standard for Obama to be considered "natural born"


















Cool... I got it... the children of aliens can become President in Amerika, Inc. (<-- don't forget that part because this is the United States, Inc. and the Constitution does not apply)


Thanks, I got it too.

[erowe1]

Ok.... I get it... by today's naturalization standards Obama Sr. would need to live in the U.S. for at least 5 years to be eligible for naturalization (we'll just forget about what the requirements were in 1961 for a moment)


Yes, let's forget about what the standards were in 1961. Let's also forget what they are now. Let's forget all the accretions that have become attached to the words of the Constitution by living-document judges over the past two centuries and consider what the phrase meant to those who ratified it.

Do you suppose that George Washington's father might not have been a citizen of the United States of America when George was born?

[jmdrake]

Yes, let's forget about what the standards were in 1961. Let's also forget what they are now. Let's forget all the accretions that have become attached to the words of the Constitution by living-document judges over the past two centuries and consider what the phrase meant to those who ratified it.

Do you suppose that George Washington's father might not have been a citizen of the United States of America when George was born?

Oh come on! That argument is as stupid as anything the birthers might put forward. The constitution specifically grandfathered in people who were citizens at the time of the founding of the republic regardless of whether they were natural born or not. While I agree that some birthers go overboard, the anti-birthers do so as well.

[Brett85]

And even after multiple independent experts review it and confirm its genuineness, it still won't change anything, because no matter how many hoops he jumps through, there will still be a handful of self-proclaimed internet-educated "independent experts" who will think it's fake, and who will continue to set the bar just beyond whatever Obama has done. These are people who somehow manage to interpret the words "natural born citizen" in the Constitution as though they mean "someone who has done whatever arbitrary thing I decide he must do to prove to my satisfaction that he's a natural born citizen."

There's certain people who believe that in order to be a "natural born citizen" both of your parents have to be United States citizens as well. I'm not sure whether that's true or not, but if it was true it would make Obama's birth place irrelevant.

[ExPatPaki]

So he's a citizen but not natural born? What about his mother's US citizenship?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[aGameOfThrones]

Yes, let's forget about what the standards were in 1961. Let's also forget what they are now. Let's forget all the accretions that have become attached to the words of the Constitution by living-document judges over the past two centuries and consider what the phrase meant to those who ratified it.

Do you suppose that George Washington's father might not have been a citizen of the United States of America when George was born?


Very dumb post, hopefully you'll realize why.

[aGameOfThrones]

So he's a citizen but not natural born? What about his mother's US citizenship?
What about it? I believe citizenship was pass by his father first.

[HOLLYWOOD]

I can care less about this clown and his crones, BUT, That Certificate of Live Birth will NOT get you a US Top Secret security clearance. Where's the hospital Birth Certificate with the doctors signature which is required for a TS clearance? The dude is NOFORN

What I didn't like was the huge hit piece last night on CNN: Anderson Cooper 360, Fareed Zakari, and some black pundit all inciting that Trump is a Racist.

[ExPatPaki]

What about it? I believe citizenship was pass by his father first.

Well doesn't his mother get to pass on her citizenship onto her son, Barack Obama? Or she doesn't get to because she was under 18 when Barack was born.

I'm just trying to understand this; but in the end I think this is a non-issue.

[ExPatPaki]

What I didn't like was the huge hit piece last night on CNN: Anderson Cooper 360, Fareed Zakari, and some black pundit all inciting that Trump is a Racist.

I can't watch CNN without getting really angry. Fareed is just your typical brown sahib (our phrase for Uncle Tom)

[aGameOfThrones]

Well doesn't his mother get to pass on her citizenship onto her son, Barack Obama? Or she doesn't get to because she was under 18 when Barack was born.

I'm just trying to understand this; but in the end I think this is a non-issue.

I believe it was because of her age and something to do with a law that British subject children got their citizenship from their father. Can someone refresh my memory if I'm correct?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[erowe1]

Oh come on! That argument is as stupid as anything the birthers might put forward. The constitution specifically grandfathered in people who were citizens at the time of the founding of the republic regardless of whether they were natural born or not. While I agree that some birthers go overboard, the anti-birthers do so as well.

Oops. In my haste to make a point I forgot about that.

I think the other part of what I said remains. This talk about dual citizenship, and the citizenship of his father, and all these other things based on later case law, should not affect anything. The meaning of "natural born citizen" in the Constitution is the meaning it had to those who ratified it.

[Ray]

lol there goes Trump's support and media attention

[Bruno]

The funny thing is that its overlayed on the same background as the other live birth one. lol

winner winner chicken dinner

[bigronaldo]

I believe it was because of her age and something to do with a law that British subject children got their citizenship from their father. Can someone refresh my memory if I'm correct?

Not sure about the age thing, but my sister in law married a German and lives in Germany. They had two kids and both kids have a dual citizenship. I'm not sure what the legal definition of a "natural born citizen" is, but as far as the common use of the terms, they are American citizens. When they are older they have to right to live and work in America without any problems.

I was born in the Netherlands, as my father was in the Air Force there at the time. Both of my parents are American. I'm not sure, but I would hope that I would qualify as a "natural born citizen". I was only there for six months. No memories of it whatsoever.

[moostraks]

What I didn't like was the huge hit piece last night on CNN: Anderson Cooper 360, Fareed Zakari, and some black pundit all inciting that Trump is a Racist.

Check out the comments at the HuffPO piece, apparently the racist issue is picking up traction again. This sure seems to be giving Pres. Obama some wind back with his supporters. If I was a supporter of the Pres. I would wonder why he took so long to provide the stupid thing, but most people will just blow it off and would rather tar and feather the other side with racist to overlook that issue. Any non-minority is going to have a problem running against Obama.

[aGameOfThrones]

Not sure about the age thing, but my sister in law married a German and lives in Germany. They had two kids and both kids have a dual citizenship. I'm not sure what the legal definition of a "natural born citizen" is, but as far as the common use of the terms, they are American citizens. When they are older they have to right to live and work in America without any problems.

I was born in the Netherlands, as my father was in the Air Force there at the time. Both of my parents are American. I'm not sure, but I would hope that I would qualify as a "natural born citizen". I was only there for six months. No memories of it whatsoever.

Read post 64 on this thread.

[JK/SEA]

The focus should now be on the typewriter used. Are/will the key strokes match up under forensic scrutiny? Where is it?...who made it?..can there be fingerprints still on the keys verifying who typed the info?....DAMMIT!...FIND ME THAT TYPEWRITER!..

[Lucille]

I really hope people will stop talking about that dark day, on which all of our fates were sealed. Forget about the transcripts, too. We already know he's a dumbass. #stupidisasstupiddoes

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

This is just stupid.

[jmdrake]

Oops. In my haste to make a point I forgot about that.

I think the other part of what I said remains. This talk about dual citizenship, and the citizenship of his father, and all these other things based on later case law, should not affect anything. The meaning of "natural born citizen" in the Constitution is the meaning it had to those who ratified it.

Great. Please enlighten the rest of us as to what that meaning actually was. I assume you read it somewhere? The federalists papers maybe?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[UtahApocalypse]

Dis you all miss the 2011 stamp right opn the COPY?!?!!? We want to see an Original not something typed up two days ago

[klamath]

I never was a birther but I can say I was starting to have some doubt when the democratic governor of hawaii could not get a copy. It is over as far as I am concerned. On to the real issues.

[Sarge]

Was it common to put African as a race on a birth certificate back in 1961? African is not a race? One would think a hospital would know that.

[aGameOfThrones]

Was it common to put African as a race on a birth certificate back in 1961? African is not a race? One would think a hospital would know that.

I forgot about that. I didn't notice it until you brought it up.

I found a fixed copy:

http://www.zohar.cn/image/users/18011/ftp/my_files/obama-birth-certificate-satire-cpanel271.jpg

Got this from wiki:


Census 1960 (Population)
The 1960 Census re-added the word “color” to the racial question, and changed “Indian” to “American Indian”, as well as added Hawaiian, Part-Hawaiian, Aleut, and Eskimo. The Other (print out race) option was removed.

Census 1970 (Population)
This year’s census included “Negro or Black”, re-added Korean and the Other race option. There was a questionnaire that was asked of only a sample of respondents. These questions were as follows:

[daviddee]

...

[HOLLYWOOD]

Was it common to put African as a race on a birth certificate back in 1961? African is not a race? One would think a hospital would know that.
Anybody know a Black person born in Hawaii that has a copy of the long form to resolve this?

In 1961, wasn't the term NEGRO still used to define a black/african person and on forms? NEGRO is still used throughout the world to define the color "BLACK"

Attending Physician died in 2003
http://archives.starbulletin.com/2003/08/24/news/obits.html

Anyway here's some info: http://jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com/2011/04/question-how-did-official-documents.html

and another person born in 1961 @ Kapiolani Hospital: http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2011/04/fact-check-this-media-reasons-why-obama.html


QUESTION: How Did Official Hawaiian Documents Record the Race of African-Americans 1961?

Posted by Erica

I raise this question because the long-form Certificate of Live Birth released by the White House today (http://jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com/2011/04/breaking-white-house-releases-obamas.html) describes Obama Sr.'s race as "African." That word is common in today's usage, but because political correctness has renamed many cultural groups over time, was that the designation used for all black babies born at Kapiolani Hospital in the 1960s? Perhaps someone will release their birth certificate from that time as a comparison. In the meantime, I'm still searching for an answer.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hvSuy4Ng8jc/TbgsWyqhkfI/AAAAAAAAB2A/rABTMOVJGnc/s320/The+Negro+in+Hawaii.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hvSuy4Ng8jc/TbgsWyqhkfI/AAAAAAAAB2A/rABTMOVJGnc/s1600/The+Negro+in+Hawaii.jpg) Click to enlarge Interestingly, in the September 1968 issue of Ebony Magazine, on page 27, there is an article titled "The Negro In Hawaii (http://books.google.com/books?id=ndsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA26&dq=hawaii+negro&hl=en&ei=LSa4TbzzLqL50gGi99HcDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=hawaii%20negro&f=false)". Throughout the article, the author never uses the term African, just "Negro." The article offers a balanced debate about the pros and cons of being a "Negro" in paradise. If black people of the 1960s era referred to themselves as "Negro," did the hospitals record the births of black babies as "Negro?"

Here's an excerpt from the article:
The interviewer asked how they would feel about having a Negro as a co-worker. The answer was unanimous: no problem. When asked how they would feel about a Negro as their immediate supervisor, again the answer was unanimous: no problem.

How they would feel if a Negro bought the house next door? A few had doubts, but again the majority fully accepted the possibility.

But then came the question: how would they feel if their daughter dated a Negro . . . or if she married a Negro. Suddenly the picture changed: the great majority drew the line here. They said, in effect, no dice.

How would they characterize Hawaii's attitude toward the Negro? Prejudiced, unprejudiced or partly prejudiced? They stated unanimously: partly prejudiced.

"People want equality for the Negro," said one, "so long as it doesn't affect them personally."

One local Caucasian believed that Hawaii tolerates the Negro because of the small number living here, but that the state still does not accept them.So, if the state didn't accept black people, would it be reasonable to think that they probably listed a black child's race on a birth certificate as "Negro," rather than African?

[Diurdi]

I'm so glad Ron Paul didn't get mixed up in this shit.

[erowe1]

Great. Please enlighten the rest of us as to what that meaning actually was. I assume you read it somewhere? The federalists papers maybe?

I don't know about the Federalist Papers. But since we're looking for the meaning of a term in English at any given period of time, the first place I would check is the Oxford English Dictionary.

Here's what it says:

natural-born, adj.
View as: Outline |Full entryQuotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /ˌnatʃ(ə)rəlˈbɔːn/ , /ˌnatʃ(ə)rlˌˈbɔːn/ , U.S. /ˈnætʃər(ə)lˈbɔ(ə)rn/ , /ˈnætʃr(ə)lˈbɔ(ə)rn/
Forms: see natural adj. and born adj.
Etymology: < natural adj. + born adj. Compare earlier naturally born adj. at naturally adv. 11a, native-born adj.(Show Less)
Thesaurus »

1. Having a specified position, nationality, etc., by birth; native-born. See naturally born adj. at naturally adv. 11a. Cf. also natural adj. 14a.

1583 Execution for Treason (1675) 43 D. Sanders a natural born Subject but an unnatural worn Priest.
1598 W. Phillip tr. J. H. van Linschoten Disc. Voy. E. & W. Indies i. xxix. 53/2 The children of Mestiços are of colour and fashion like the naturall borne Countrimen.
1625 in H. L'Estrange Reign King Charles (1655) 21 Divers of the naturall-born subjects of this Kingdome‥do‥claim precedency of the Peers of this Realm.
1695 Act 7 & 8 Will. III (1696) 478 A Natural born Subject of this Realm‥Who shall be willing to Enter and Register himself for the Service of His Majesty.
1709 Act 7 Anne c. 5 §3 The Children of all natural-born Subjects, born out of the Ligeance of her Majesty‥shall be deemed‥to be natural-born Subjects of this Kingdom.
1776 in T. Jefferson Public Papers 344 All persons who‥propose to reside‥and who shall subscribe the fundamental laws, shall be considered as residents and entitled to all the rights of persons natural born.
1833 Penny Cycl. I. 338/2 It is not true that every person, born out of the dominion of the crown, is therefore an alien; nor is a person born within them necessarily a natural-born subject.
1866 G. Bancroft Hist. U.S. IX. xxvi. 439 Every one who first saw the light on the American soil was a natural-born citizen.
1910 Encycl. Brit. I. 662/2 A natural-born British woman, having become an alien by marriage, and thereafter being a widow, may be rehabilitated under conditions slightly more favourable than are required for naturalization.
1965 New Statesman 30 Apr. 670/2 He proclaims proudly, in a modulated Birmingham accent that makes him sound like a well-bred Australian: ‘I'm a natural born Brummie.’
2001 Hong Kong Imail (Nexis) 23 July, The territory's highest court ruled that only natural-born Hong Kong children were entitled to the right of abode.
(Hide quotations)


2. Having a specified character or constitution from birth. Cf. born adj. 5b.

1835 J. P. Kennedy Horse-shoe Robinson I. xiii. 251 Wat talks like a natural born fool.
1897 M. Kingsley Trav. W. Afr. 137 The chief being a natural-born idiot, came with two of his head men.
1918 W. Cather My Ántonia iv. iii. 359 Ántonia is a natural-born mother. I wish she could marry and raise a family, but I don't know as there's much chance now.
1958 J. Kerouac On Road 71 Everybody in America is a natural-born thief.
1994 Gazette (Montreal) 5 Nov. j1/4 The authors‥present Trudeau as a natural-born, big ‘L’ Liberal instead of a trendy rich socialist.

Something we need to distinguish, and part of what I was getting at, but didn't say clearly enough, is the difference between the simple basic meaning of the phrase, and the various laws that could affect its practical application in different situations. I think some of the evidence I've noticed people making in this thread, claiming that Obama could not be a "natural born citizen" even though he was a citizen and was born that way confuse those two things.

The basic phrase "natural born citizen" means any citizen who was born a citizen (as opposed to someone who became a citizen later through some act of naturalization). There may have been a law somewhere at some time that said that a person was a citizen at birth only if their father was a citizen. Under that law, Obama would not have been a citizen at birth, and thus would not have been a natural born citizen. But under the 14th Amendment, Obama has been a citizen since birth (and thus a natural born citizen, according to the meaning that phrase has had since well before the ratification of the Constitution) since he was born here and subject to the jurisdiction of the USA.

However, I grant that if it is the case that the Federalist Papers do use the phrase and do clearly mean something different by it than someone who has been a citizen since their birth, that would change things. That usage, even if unusual, would stand a good chance of being how it was understood by those who ratified the Constitution and would serve as more important evidence of that than the quotations adduced in OED. I'm not familiar enough with the Federalist Papers to say if that's the case.

[Immortal Technique]

Lmao

[qh4dotcom]

I'm so glad Ron Paul didn't get mixed up in this shit.

"It should be pursued. We should know the truth and we should follow the rule, we should follow the law, we should follow what the
Constitution says about who is qualified to be President. So, I am very open-minded about looking at all of that."
- Ron Paul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoQ3kO9xzcs#t=1m30s

[eduardo89]

I guess this is what Trump's investigators found in Hawaii....?

Anyway, real or fake, showing the birth certificate doesn't mean anything. He's president and what we need to focus on is getting him out of the White House and getting Ron Paul in.

On a side note, give me a typewriter, the right kind of paper, and a bit of time and I'll make you an exact copy of Barack Obama's birth certificate. This proves nothing, but that's besides the point and just a distraction issue.

[emazur]

If no WMDs didn't discredit Bush in the eyes of the public, then a birth certificate will not discredit Trump

[tangent4ronpaul]

Anybody know a Black person born in Hawaii that has a copy of the long form to resolve this?

In 1961, wasn't the term NEGRO still used to define a black/african person and on forms? NEGRO is still used throughout the world to define the color "BLACK"

Attending Physician died in 2003
http://archives.starbulletin.com/2003/08/24/news/obits.html

Anyway here's some info: http://jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com/2011/04/question-how-did-official-documents.html

and another person born in 1961 @ Kapiolani Hospital: http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2011/04/fact-check-this-media-reasons-why-obama.html

It's a fake.

Have to look at again for the 2011 UtahApocalypse mentioned and African instead of Negro, as mentioned in the quote. Personally, I wrote it off as a fake after glancing at it for about 4-5 seconds.

First off, the childs name is Barack Husain Obama II, however he didn't change his name until he was an adult, yet it bears dated signatures from 1961...

Secondly, it's printed on security paper. I've seen quite a few birth certificates that were that old, and they were always printed on plain paper and usually certified with an official state seal like a notary uses. For that matter, I don't think security paper was even used or invented before the 1970's.

I don't believe that particular pattern, which was digitally created with the aid of modern computers, was in existence till the mid 90's.

He really needs to hire better forgers. I guess good help is hard to find these days. :rolleyes:

-t

[erowe1]

Secondly, it's printed on security paper. I've seen quite a few birth certificates that were that old, and they were always printed on plain paper and usually certified with an official state seal like a notary uses. For that matter, I don't think security paper was even used or invented before the 1970's.

It was scanned from something bound in a book and then printed. You can tell that by looking at the edges.

Edit: Also, notice what the stamp at the bottom says, "I certify that this is a true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii state department of health." with the state registrar's signature. So there's not the slightest pretense that what you're looking at is the actual original paper document on the very paper it was originally made on.

[DeadheadForPaul]

I never have nor will understand the birther movement

Do you really think the powers that be could not find an actual citizen to run? Why risk it with a non-citizen?

Even if he is a non-citizen, don't you think they could just fake his birth certificate?

Even if it was proven he was not a citizen, do you think anything would really happen?

How about you funnel your energies into more productive enterprises like tearing apart Obama's record?

The Birther movement is fueling donations for the Dems and causing independents to view anyone anti-Obama as a racist conspiracy theorist. It's like the Truther b.s. all over again

How about you not tie your radical beliefs to Ron Paul

[Kregisen]

Ummm guys....it's a fake. Everyone knows PDF files didn't exist in 1961!

[DeadheadForPaul]

ummm guys....it's a fake. Everyone knows pdf files didn't exist in 1961!

lol :)

[eduardo89]

Ummm guys....it's a fake. Everyone knows PDF files didn't exist in 1961!

Neither did photoshop, it's amazing what that program can do.

[idirtify]

Whether it’s real or fake, I say, for the moment, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. I don’t understand why birthers are being blamed here. They/we were/are only asking questions, GOOD LEGITIMATE questions. I thought it was considered a good thing to question authority. Am I wrong? I am constantly amazed at the opposition and ridicule directed at the questioners. So now that authority has responded, the birthers look more ridiculous?? Why? How does that work? Questions were asked and asked until they got so loud and popular and the public pressure increased (largely via sites like this and then Trump) as to have finally reached the MSM, that authority finally provided a response. That’s the way it’s supposed to work, right? Right. So unless someone wants to step up and explain to us why it is not appropriate to question authority, I guess it’s on with the next questions; esp if this pic is only of another freshly-typed copy, which contains more details but also more inconsistencies.

[ifthenwouldi]

Even if it was proven he was not a citizen, do you think anything would really happen?


This gets to the heart of the matter.

We MUST pick our battles, and this one is not worth it.

[tangent4ronpaul]

"I certify that this is a true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii state department of health."

It still bears signatures dated 1961 listing the birth of a child who did not go by that name till decades later. This is not a copy of his original birth certificate.

The guy has spent millions making his records unavailable - what is he hiding?

Personally, the 2 notices in Hawaii papers at the time are the strongest evidence he was born in the US, it just makes me wonder why all the effort to produce altered documents and hide his past. He's hiding something.

[sofia]

Called it, nothing is good enough for the birthers.

At first glance, I am struck by the father's race classification being listed as "African"....In 1961, the races were referred to as Caucasian, Negro, and Mongoloid. The politically correct term "African" did not become in vogue until the 1990's.

"African" listed as a race in 1961 is not possible. Africa is a continent...not a race! North Africans are either Arabs or White Berbers....South Africans and Rhosesians were white, as were Portuguese, Belgian, French, Italian, and English colonists born and raised in Africa.

This B.C. wil turn out to be a fake. Obama had no choice but to come up with something.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Neither did photoshop, it's amazing what that program can do.

+1

[idirtify]

I never have nor will understand the birther movement

Do you really think the powers that be could not find an actual citizen to run? Why risk it with a non-citizen?

Even if he is a non-citizen, don't you think they could just fake his birth certificate?

Even if it was proven he was not a citizen, do you think anything would really happen?

How about you funnel your energies into more productive enterprises like tearing apart Obama's record?

The Birther movement is fueling donations for the Dems and causing independents to view anyone anti-Obama as a racist conspiracy theorist. It's like the Truther b.s. all over again

How about you not tie your radical beliefs to Ron Paul

Well then I guess you don’t understand the concept of the people questioning their leaders. Of course the leaders are more powerful and of course they can get away with lies and fraud, but that is not a reason to NOT question them. Quite the opposite; that is the reason the questions must be persistent.

And your advice to be “more productive” is only implying that some questions are not appropriate. If anything is inappropriate in this forum, it is that attitude; which smacks of protecting authority.

[idirtify]

We MUST pick our battles, and this one is not worth it.

Speak for yourself. If you do not want to question authority about this, you are perfectly free to make that choice.

[aGameOfThrones]

Speak for yourself. If you do not want to question authority about this, you are perfectly free to make that choice.

http://funcorner.eu/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/spread-anarchy-dont-tell-me-what-to-do.jpg

[libertybrewcity]

I'd still like to see at least one state pass a b-cert law

[aGameOfThrones]

Arizona Gov vetos birth law and now Obama releases his "true" birth cert, coincidence?

[iGGz]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf

I'm not huge on the birther movement, but if he wasn't born here I think it's a pretty big deal.

Now that it is released, I'd be interested in finding out if the numbers at the top are accurate:

File number 151, Department of health 61 - 10641

Such as, does this number make sense for the date of the birth certificate?

[iGGz]

Hmmm?

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2008/12/obama-birth-certificate-number-proves-its-a-fake-busted/

[Sarge]

How could he be born the day before this baby, and yet, his BC number is higher than both twins born a day later? The other twin was one number higher.

http://fellowshipofminds.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/twinlivebirth.jpg

[jack555]

All I can see are pictures of a certificate of live birth not birth certificate?right?opinions?

[Krugerrand]

How could he be born the day before this baby, and yet, his BC number is higher than both twins born a day later? The other twin was one number higher.

http://fellowshipofminds.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/twinlivebirth.jpg

Birth certificates have to be requested. They would be processed in the order they are requested ... not re-shuffled based on the order of birth. If the numbers are that close, I would expect that to support the legitimacy of the BC.

EDIT: if you want to question something ... and it would depend on who, who and when these get filled in ... but you could ask why Age of mother, Race of Father, Kind of business, Race of Mother are all centered on Lord Barry's but on the other are Left Justified. .... but that could very easily mean absolutely nothing.

The only way I could see this as a fake would be if they found somebody that was born in those same couple of days that died and re-sued their number. Anything else could too easily be discovered. I won't be holding my breath that that's what's happened.

[Sarge]

I suggest BC's are numbered and recorded in the order babies are born. Not when one is requested. Date and time of birth gets the next number.

BO has the same heading on his BC.

[Krugerrand]

I suggest BC's are numbered and recorded in the order babies are born. Not when one is requested. Date and time of birth gets the next number.

BO has the same heading on his BC.

What happens if you request a BC for your child after one has been already issued to somebody born after your child?

[erowe1]

I suggest BC's are numbered and recorded in the order babies are born. Not when one is requested.

How do you suppose that would work? Do you think that when someone requests a BC they deliberately skip a bunch of numbers in case they need to fill them in later with someone else who turns out to have been born earlier?

[Daamien]

No evidence will ever be good enough for birthers, just like 9/11 truthers and moon landing deniers. It's one thing to question official views and conventional history, but it needs to be done objectively. Not having definitive proof that Obama was born in the United States does not indicate or prove that he was not born in the United States.

In the meantime I'll focus my efforts combating issues of governance.

[Sarge]

It looks like many questions will be argued shortly. The Social Security numbers alone should be interesting.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/7235-challenge-to-president-obamas-eligibility-to-be-heard-by-9th-circuit-court

[shocker315]

Ok , I haven’t followed all the particulars of this story, since I believe its largely a waste of time.

But I'm curious....I don't understand why it took two years to "release" this particular copy of the BC (original copy with sigs). I mean, shouldn’t the Hawaii Vital Records office have had this copy in their possession all this time? If so...why couldn't anybody (mainly the press or investigators) simply get this original copy before? Why is it now being "disclosed and released" to the media for all to see? This implies that it was undisclosed and not released to the public prior to today? If this is true...why?

Somebody want explain that to me?

[Sarge]

Interesting comments. Likely my last post on this subject. I know so many are in a hurry to get onto other bigger issues and believe it is all a waste of time.

What about this persons time. I wonder how this man feels sitting in jail when BO wouldn't release his BC as a defense request.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=292213

[Zap!]

Signed four days after his birth, just in time for the move to the states...

[libertarian4321]

I think it's wrong to claim the birthers are necessarily racist.

I'm sure some of them are just idiots.

I knew, however, that even coming up with the "long form" wouldn't be enough for the conspiracy theorists.

They'll just keep on going with their BS- claiming that some smudge on the document, or a fleck of dust on the corner is "irrefutable proof" that Obama is Kenyan or Indonesian or Martian or something.

[amonasro]

This is actually a brilliant political move.

Obama sits on the birth certificate, all the while driving tea partiers and birthers absolutely through the roof. This paints them as crazy conspiracy nuts and helps to drive negative energy and attention away from his low poll numbers. Now that the book is #1 on Amazon and Trump's single-issue campaign is suddenly headline numero uno, everything reaches critical mass. If Obama waits any longer, the tide will start to turn and Trump will gain more ground, as will the book's influence on popular opinion and the possibility of more books and more Trumps. In one fell swoop, Obama releases the certificate, destroys Trump's momentum and discredits the entire birther movement. Brilliant politics. Obama may be a lot of things, but he is an excellent politician we must not underestimate EVER.

[libertarian4321]

Interesting comments. Likely my last post on this subject. I know so many are in a hurry to get onto other bigger issues and believe it is all a waste of time.

What about this persons time. I wonder how this man feels sitting in jail when BO wouldn't release his BC as a defense request.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=292213

Trying to use reason with "birthers" is like trying to reason with a rabid dog- it just won't work.

Hopefully, the rational folks among us can focus on important issues. You know, little things like getting Ron Paul elected rather than worrying about nutty conspiracy theories about why Obama is a Kenyan Indonesian atheist secret Muslim with a Christian pastor problem.

Maybe, just maybe, we should focus on issues that matter, like the budge deficit, the health care mess, the 3 wars, excessive government regulation, etc.

[Stary Hickory]

This is actually a brilliant political move.

Obama sits on the birth certificate, all the while driving tea partiers and birthers absolutely through the roof. This paints them as crazy conspiracy nuts and helps to drive negative energy and attention away from his low poll numbers. Now that the book is #1 on Amazon and Trump's single-issue campaign is suddenly headline numero uno, everything reaches critical mass. If Obama waits any longer, the tide will start to turn and Trump will gain more ground, as will the book's influence on popular opinion and the possibility of more books and more Trumps. In one fell swoop, Obama releases the certificate, destroys Trump's momentum and discredits the entire birther movement. Brilliant politics. Obama may be a lot of things, but he is an excellent politician we must not underestimate EVER.

LOL this is utterly insane. It was no calculating political move that made Obama release this NOW....lol....it was he was taking a political beating because of growing doubt and fear of Corsi's book. In the end he released this not out of respect for the American public but out of fear of political loss....if the issue is forgotten what will be remembered is how he arrogantly dodge the issue, while doubt grew, how he paid millions to keep people from seeing a simple piece of paper. How he allowed military service members to go to prison over this...without intervening or settling the matter.

The race card is dead already, this cannot revive that. What will be the issue 2012? The faltering economy, rising prices, high unemployment and a weird ass president who harbors disdain and disrespect for a very very large portion of America.

[Don Lapre]

Common sense 101.

If this is... it, and it's this simple, then why on earth would one put up many multiple lawsuit defenses to avoid showing it?


Oh, because this isn't... it.

Yw.


This is Barry's pre-emptive shot at desperately trying to slide away from the HUGE shitstorm that is about to come with the release of the Corsi book.

Buckle your seatbelts.

Shit flies shortly.

[libertarian4321]

Common sense 101.



I think the terms "sense" and "birther" are mutually exclusive.

[pcosmar]

As I said,,

Meh,,

At least it is a distraction that Dr. Paul won't have to deal with. and he can focus on dismembering him on his record.
;)

But I would positively get the giggles if this turned out to be another forgery.

[Depressed Liberator]

LOL this is utterly insane. It was no calculating political move that made Obama release this NOW....lol....it was he was taking a political beating because of growing doubt and fear of Corsi's book. In the end he released this not out of respect for the American public but out of fear of political loss....if the issue is forgotten what will be remembered is how he arrogantly dodge the issue, while doubt grew, how he paid millions to keep people from seeing a simple piece of paper. How he allowed military service members to go to prison over this...without intervening or settling the matter.

The race card is dead already, this cannot revive that. What will be the issue 2012? The faltering economy, rising prices, high unemployment and a weird ass president who harbors disdain and disrespect for a very very large portion of America.

That guy's book?

Listen, we all know well that a book that becomes the best seller does not mean shit to most Americans. A good minority of people have always questioned Obama's citizenship, and those are the same people that never liked him. The people who do question his birth, however, were seen as idiotic and insane by independents and just about anyone else, and a lot of Republicans had to take the blame for it or even be given the "birther" title if they didn't do anything about their base. Again, there was no real pressure whatsoever for Obama to release this. He just saw a good opportunity to release the more detailed birth certificate that would play in his political interests, which are to make all birthers look even more dumb and idiotic (especially since the one he released today will still likely not be enough for most birthers, and as I have said on this message board many times, nothing will be enough), and many Republicans will have to deal with the association with the idiots.

[devil21]

I guess that's put to rest. Glad it's not going to be an issue anymore and we can get back to fighting stuff like bombing foreign countries that didn't do anything to us.

Having said that, I hope those in this thread that are chiding others realize how simple it would be to fake that birth certificate. The thing is, I have yet to see any independent sources come forward to say that they saw the BC previously. Everyone that claims they saw it are all government employees, and even friends of Obama's family.

[fisharmor]

I don't know if anyone else did the math, but Obama's father was a statutory rapist.

[yoshimaroka]

I don't think it's relevant:



Seems like good ol George would fall under the "Citizen at the time of the Adoption" section....
Tangent and a rhetorical:
How did the Constitution all of a sudden apply to everyone in the geographical area known as America at the time of Adoption?
Just pointing out the absurd notion of a Constitution and any institutional form of government.

[dude58677]

People were demanding that WMD's were not proven and Bush laughed it off. He finally showed pictures of the WMD's in Iraq... or did he? It turned out the pictures that Colin Powell showed were fake.

[mello]

...

[erowe1]

People were demanding that WMD's were not proven and Bush laughed it off. He finally showed pictures of the WMD's in Iraq... or did he? It turned out the pictures that Colin Powell showed were fake.

IIRC Powell didn't show fake pictures of WMDs, but real pictures of other things that experts wrongly claimed were evidence for the existence of WMDs.

[Xavi1990]

Now Trump wants his college records released. Looks like he's given up on the birth thing now.

[tpreitzel]

Frankly, Obama is the only one playing games. The states will likely proceed with their legislation requiring proof of natural-born citizenship which should include not only the candidate, but both parents as well being born in one of the 50 states. The states would be wise to ignore the 14th amendment ... ;)

Why didn't the Obama produce his alleged birth certificate years ago? Because, HE is the one playing games....

[reillym]

Frankly, Obama is the only one playing games. The states will likely proceed with their legislation requiring proof of natural-born citizenship which should include not only the candidate, but both parents as well being born in one of the 50 states. The states would be wise to ignore the 14th amendment ... ;)

Why didn't the Obama produce his alleged birth certificate years ago? Because, HE is the one playing games....

He didn't produce it because it was a non-issue that was caused by racist bigots trying to attack him for something.

[tpreitzel]

He didn't produce it because it was a non-issue that was caused by racist bigots trying to attack him for something.

Nonsense, but I'm quite sure that Obama would second your assertion. Natural-born citizenship is ALWAYS an issue and SHOULD be for POTUS. Even MCcain wasn't technically qualified to be POTUS if the PROPER common-law definition of natural-born citizenship was still the standard for POTUS.

[ctiger2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jHqGctWy0Q&feature=feedu

[Vessol]

This birther shit is the most useless and pointless debate.

[idirtify]

No evidence will ever be good enough for birthers, just like 9/11 truthers and moon landing deniers. It's one thing to question official views and conventional history, but it needs to be done objectively. Not having definitive proof that Obama was born in the United States does not indicate or prove that he was not born in the United States.

In the meantime I'll focus my efforts combating issues of governance.

This is not an issue of the people proving the president’s birth details. It’s an issue of the president’s missing and questionable details. Since the issue is of required qualifications for the job, the burden is not on the employers (us) to disprove the qualifications. The burden is on the employee (Obama) to provide/prove them. As another commenter on another forum said: It is good to question these things. Trying to get to the bottom of them is the role of the responsible citizen. To blindly ignore the problem and/or criticize the process of confronting it is not the right move.

Focus your efforts as you wish, but your effort at criticism here is unwarranted.

[Bruno]

From the smoking gun below.

Additionally, I wonder why Stanley is in written in parenthesis in a weird way, and also why on the upper- left hand side the previous page is hand written and Obama's was typed. There are are also hand-written letters and numbers on sections 7g, 9, 11, 12a, 12b, 14, and 16. Maybe that is normal, I don't know.

The font also seems so computer generated. Below it says it is possibly pulled from an abstract from records on file. In other words, folks, this still isn't the original.

And why isn't anyone asking why the Governor of Hawaii could not find it and said he didn't think it existed, yet it can be so quickly "copied"?

This birth certificate raises more questions than it answers.


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/barack-obama/birth-obama-certer-movement-098513

• If the original document was in a bound volume (as reflected by the curvature of the left hand side of the certificate), how can the green patterned background of the document's safety paper be so seamless?

• Why, if Obama was born on August 4, 1961, was the “Date Accepted by Local Reg.” four days later on August 8, 1961?

• What is the significance of the smudges in the box containing the name of the reported attendant?

• David A. Sinclair, the M.D. who purportedly signed the document, died nearly eight years ago at age 81. So he is conveniently unavailable to answer questions about Obama’s reported birth.

• In the “This Birth” box there are two mysterious Xs above “Twin” and “Triplet.” Is there a sibling or two unaccounted for?

• What is the significance of the mysterious numbers, seen vertically, on the document’s right side?

• Finally, the “Signature of Local Registrar” in box 21 may be a desperate attempt at establishing the document’s Hawaiian authenticity.* Note to forgers: It is spelled “Ukulele.”



http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/obamabirthcetgrab.jpg

[stefank]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVG772L1v_k
"go home you're fired go play with donald trump"

[mport1]

I don't care where Obama or anybody was born. Nobody has the authority to rule over people against their consent.

[BlackTerrel]

Birthers not convinced... shocker.

I am convinced if Doc Brown came in a time machine and took these people to Hawaii the day Obama was born and they sat in the delivery room and saw everything live they would still say it was a fake.

The Science Of Why We Don't Believe In Science (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?288821-The-Science-of-Why-We-Don-t-Believe-Science)

[mport1]

Birthers not convinced... shocker.

I am convinced if Doc Brown came in a time machine and took these people to Hawaii the day Obama was born and they sat in the delivery room and saw everything live they would still say it was a fake.

The Science Of Why We Don't Believe In Science (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?288821-The-Science-of-Why-We-Don-t-Believe-Science)

God, I hate conspiracy theories. No amount of evidence can ever convince the believers that they are wrong. They will claim that you are brainwashed, sheep, close minded, whatever, but they are the ones who are close minded and stubborn about hearing the other side.

[Bruno]

Birthers not convinced... shocker.

BT adding nothing to the discussion....shocker.

Why don't you address some of the dozen or so issues with the copied document that people legitimately question?

[kahless]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVG772L1v_k
"go home you're fired go play with donald trump"

I never watched that show but needed a good laugh tonight. I cannot believe people really buy into what that raving lunatic is selling. He either needs medication or is an excellent actor.

[erowe1]

//

[Bruno]

"I just checked the official web site for Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital and according to the information there, the name of the hospital at the time of his birth should have been Kauikeolani Children's Hospital. According to the web site the name didn't change to Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital until Kauikeolani Children's Hospital merged with Kapi‘olani Maternity Home in 1978. So how could his official long form birth certificate that was generated in 1961 have the name of the hospital that wasn't created until 1978?"

[Zippyjuan]

I don't know if it is worth further responce. Those not convinced by the long form they have been saying would be the ultimate proof to them after so long will not change their minds by further arguing. As predicted, it was declared a forgery by those who choose not to believe Obama was born in the United States just like nearly all of the rest of us. Is that a terrible thing? Or is it more comforting that he is "different"? "Not like us"? "Not qualified to be president?"

[idirtify]

Trying to use reason with "birthers" is like trying to reason with a rabid dog- it just won't work.

Hopefully, the rational folks among us can focus on important issues. You know, little things like getting Ron Paul elected rather than worrying about nutty conspiracy theories about why Obama is a Kenyan Indonesian atheist secret Muslim with a Christian pastor problem.

Maybe, just maybe, we should focus on issues that matter, like the budge deficit, the health care mess, the 3 wars, excessive government regulation, etc.

Not only do you anti-birthers ridicule we who question authority and say we are wasting our time, but you “waste” large amounts of your time coming to the threads that are obviously about the issue and posting nearly the same amount of characters. If we birthers are wasting our time here, then aren’t your posts guilty of worse? I mean at least we are posing legitimate questions to authority. But your efforts don’t seem to be based in any principle of individual liberty. IOW the worst that can happen to our efforts is that something may eventually be provided like it was today, but your efforts appear to be an absolute waste of time. I don’t understand what you expect to accomplish by ridiculing those who keep the government under a microscope. Isn’t that what the people are supposed to do? I mean please feel free to focus on the issues you listed. They are certainly good ones. So why are you here focusing on insulting us? Just think: if you wasted less time making personal remarks in threads you don’t like on issues you think are unimportant, you could focus on your choices even more.

[idirtify]

I think the terms "sense" and "birther" are mutually exclusive.

It would be good if you stopped posting mass insults.

[kahless]

Not only do you anti-birthers ridicule we who question authority and say we are wasting our time, but you “waste” large amounts of your time coming to the threads that are obviously about the issue and posting nearly the same amount of characters. If we birthers are wasting our time here, then aren’t your posts guilty of worse? I mean at least we are posing legitimate questions to authority. But your efforts don’t seem to be based in any principle of individual liberty. IOW the worst that can happen to our efforts is that something may eventually be provided like it was today, but your efforts appear to be an absolute waste of time. I don’t understand what you expect to accomplish by ridiculing those who keep the government under a microscope. Isn’t that what the people are supposed to do? I mean please feel free to focus on the issues you listed. They are certainly good ones. So why are you here focusing on insulting us? Just think: if you wasted less time making personal remarks in threads you don’t like on issues you think are unimportant, you could focus on your choices even more.

^Which leads people like me to believe that there is something to the birth certificate issue that the media and people are going over the top in their attacks against birthers in an effort to shutdown the discussion.

[BlackTerrel]

BT adding nothing to the discussion....shocker.

Why don't you address some of the dozen or so issues with the copied document that people legitimately question?

Because it never friggin ends. The more evidence thrown at you the more BS you throw back. At some point enough is enough.

[idirtify]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jHqGctWy0Q&feature=feedu

Hmm. So since politicians have often ignored the constitution, then it’s silly for some of them to try to respect/enforce a part of it, especially if it’s a part that you feel is “an obscure point that doesn’t mean anything”. That does not seem like a reasonable position for anyone interested in individual liberty. Maybe this guy is campaigning to be someone who will clarify for us which parts of the constitution really mean something.

[idirtify]

This birther shit is the most useless and pointless debate.

Then it sounds like you won’t be dropping in anymore to waste any more time participating in the debate. Great!

[idirtify]

Birthers not convinced... shocker.

I am convinced if Doc Brown came in a time machine and took these people to Hawaii the day Obama was born and they sat in the delivery room and saw everything live they would still say it was a fake.


If there is an African American reading this who is about the same age and born in Hawaii, please go get your BC and see if it lists your race as “African”.

[idirtify]

God, I hate conspiracy theories. No amount of evidence can ever convince the believers that they are wrong. They will claim that you are brainwashed, sheep, close minded, whatever, but they are the ones who are close minded and stubborn about hearing the other side.

So you don’t think the questions are legitimate, or you disagree with the concept of questioning authority, or you are just here to insult a lot of people who are trying to keep the government in check?

[Bruno]

Because it never friggin ends. The more evidence thrown at you the more BS you throw back. At some point enough is enough.

See, there you go! Enough is not enough for you, apparently. You'll post that same blather a dozen times but not spend the same amount of energy to put together a single rebuttal to a single claim. Your true colors show through. Move along instead of continually saying the same thing.

[idirtify]

"I just checked the official web site for Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital and according to the information there, the name of the hospital at the time of his birth should have been Kauikeolani Children's Hospital. According to the web site the name didn't change to Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital until Kauikeolani Children's Hospital merged with Kapi‘olani Maternity Home in 1978. So how could his official long form birth certificate that was generated in 1961 have the name of the hospital that wasn't created until 1978?"

Looking good there Bruno.

Apparently Zippyjuan and BlackTerrel missed your excellent research, so I’ll add to it.

-----------------
http://www.kapiolani.org/women-and-children/about-us/default.aspx

In 1908, Albert and Emma Kauikeolani Wilcox donated $50,000 to start a children's hospital. The community, concerned that two of every seven infants in Hawai‘i did not live to see their first birthday, rallied to match the Wilcox's gift. A year later, Kauikeolani Children's Hospital opened.

The two hospitals joined in 1978 to become Kapi‘olani Medical Center for Women & Children.
----------------

[idirtify]

Because it never friggin ends. The more evidence thrown at you the more BS you throw back. At some point enough is enough.

It’s good that you respect the concept of “evidence”. See Bruno’s discovery above. You see “evidence” is like “theories”; once an old one is “trumped” (pun intended) by a new one, the old one is no longer valid. I’d say the “evidence” you are talking about barely lasted 24 hours.

[SilentBull]

I read somewhere that Kenya was not "Kenya" until 1963, when it became independent. Can anyone verify this? If this is true, then this would be another interesting mistake, besides the hospital name.

[HarryBrowneLives]

Frankly, Obama is the only one playing games. The states will likely proceed with their legislation requiring proof of natural-born citizenship which should include not only the candidate, but both parents as well being born in one of the 50 states. The states would be wise to ignore the 14th amendment ... ;)

Why didn't the Obama produce his alleged birth certificate years ago? Because, HE is the one playing games....

WTF? The 14th Amedment is the law of the land and ratified by the states. If a law ignoring the 14th ever got through a state legislature (which I doubt) it would thrown out by a federal court anyway. Both parents being citizens won't work becuase of current law and case law on the subject. OK, Obama's a bad ... really bad President. He provided is birth certificate. Some of you guys want to find some kind of weird technicality in the Vain hope of a 1 to ten million chance that he might be impeached or something. Like saying Tiger Woods won The Masters by 3 strokes, but it wasn't valid because he didn't dot the I on his signed name of the scorecard. Geees ...

[pcosmar]

Curiouser and curiouser.

He has a birth certificate from a hospital that did not exist at the time.

That makes the other aspects of this document even more questionable.

[Stary Hickory]

"I just checked the official web site for Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital and according to the information there, the name of the hospital at the time of his birth should have been Kauikeolani Children's Hospital. According to the web site the name didn't change to Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital until Kauikeolani Children's Hospital merged with Kapi‘olani Maternity Home in 1978. So how could his official long form birth certificate that was generated in 1961 have the name of the hospital that wasn't created until 1978?"


Ok just once I would like to see someone explain why you found this. Instead of name calling, insulting and acting shamefully....logically respond to why this is the way it is. Why does the certificate have a hospital listed that could not possibly have existed under that name back then? How is this possible. Dont ignore the post and call me a name, don't demand it be moved to hot topics, logically sit down and explain to me how this is possible?

I can't figure out why really. Makes no sense. There may well be a valid explanation. But it escapes me.

[Stary Hickory]

Curiouser and curiouser.

He has a birth certificate from a hospital that did not exist at the time.

That makes the other aspects of this document even more questionable.

Lord ya THINK?

I dunno man, what in the hell? LOL really? I am not invested in this either way, but let me tell you I would not buy a used car from Obama.

[idirtify]

OK, Obama's a bad ... really bad President. He provided is birth certificate. Some of you guys want to find some kind of weird technicality in the Vain hope of a 1 to ten million chance that he might be impeached or something. Like saying Tiger Woods won The Masters by 3 strokes, but it wasn't valid because he didn't dot the I on his signed name of the scorecard. Geees ...

I don’t think forgetting to dot an “i” invalidates anything, but I do think listing the birthplace as a hospital name that was not even imagined for another 15 years invalidates a birth certificate. Don’t you? Or are you not really here to discuss such questions (beyond calling them “technicalities”)?

[Stary Hickory]

Curiouser and curiouser.

He has a birth certificate from a hospital that did not exist at the time.

That makes the other aspects of this document even more questionable.

Looked into it a bit more, the names they list on their website don't match anything. I think they have called their hospital different generalized names for the public and on official documentation its different. Just saying that is a logical reason why its listed as what it is. Kapiolani Maternity home is the first hospital, where I imagine Obama was born right? That means it might had have an internal name of Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital, or people refered to it as a Maternity home without the Gynecological part attached(not very tasteful to say the whole name).

So I don't think the name of the hospital is an issue. Easy test, get someone else's certificate from that time and look at it.



debunked for sure

http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/educating-the-confused-kapiolani-maternity-gynecological-hospital/

[tpreitzel]

WTF? The 14th Amedment is the law of the land and ratified by the states. If a law ignoring the 14th ever got through a state legislature (which I doubt) it would thrown out by a federal court anyway. Both parents being citizens won't work becuase of current law and case law on the subject. OK, Obama's a bad ... really bad President. He provided is birth certificate. Some of you guys want to find some kind of weird technicality in the Vain hope of a 1 to ten million chance that he might be impeached or something. Like saying Tiger Woods won The Masters by 3 strokes, but it wasn't valid because he didn't dot the I on his signed name of the scorecard. Geees ...

LoL .... Yeah, the 13th and 14th amendments were certainly ratified by the states without duress or violation of the US Constitution's original intent, weren't they? /sarcasm ... If the federal government isn't going to play by the rules, i.e. the original intent of the US Constitution, then neither do the states and their people. How do you like anarchy? Let's get the second civil war started so we can finally correct the abuses of the federal government .... I even laugh harder at "case" law based on an unconstitutional amendment... yes, UNCONSTITUTIONAL, because it violates original intent, e.g. a natural-born citizen by the common-law definition MUST be born within one of the 50 states in addition to his or her parents. PERIOD. Lastly, there was a very good reason for this common-law interpretation of natural-born citizen. ;)

[idirtify]

Ok just once I would like to see someone explain why you found this. Instead of name calling, insulting and acting shamefully....logically respond to why this is the way it is. Why does the certificate have a hospital listed that could not possibly have existed under that name back then? How is this possible. Dont ignore the post and call me a name, don't demand it be moved to hot topics, logically sit down and explain to me how this is possible?

I can't figure out why really. Makes no sense. There may well be a valid explanation. But it escapes me.

I’m with you all the way. I cannot fathom any possible way this can be explained away. I probably should not get too excited about it yet, but I can’t come up with any logical explanation. How could a doctor mistakenly write the name of a hospital that would not exist for another 17 years? Wait…I got it…Obama is a time traveler! No wait…that’s backwards. Damn!

Obama sir, you may be fucked. This error is simple and bold enough for any average American to see. You may have been wiser to hold out and stick to your story.

Anyway, we might want to “screen-shot” that web page. Who knows when it might disappear.

[TIMB0B]

Snopes says he was born at Kapi'olani Medical Center for Women and Children according to Barbara Nelson, a teacher at Obama's prep school in Hawai'i. Don't know what that proves or disproves.

But who is David Sinclair, which is the name signed under "Attendant"? Is the attendant the obstetrician? Because, again, snopes reports the obstetrician who delivered Obama was Dr. Rodney T. West. And if the attendant is just a "witness" and not an obstetrician, then is it normal for a birth certificate to not have the name of the doctor who delivered the baby? Just curious. Cause I don't know.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

[CaliforniaMom]

I posted this in the other thread.. but here is what my uncle had to say on the topic:

This morning I heard that Obama's birth certificate was posted on the Whitehouse website as a PDF file. I later heard that some people were saying it was altered or faked. Not knowing what to expect, I decided to look for myself.

I have worked with PDF files for over 20 years. I'm also hands-on fluent with most major PC graphics applications over the last 30 years.

It's absolutely true that the document has been altered. Big time. In fact, it's worse than poorly done (with many obvious problems).

I actually discovered this before it made the news this morning.

Attached is the original Whitehouse PDF file from 8:00 AM this morning (in case they decide to flatten the layers and re-post it later). You can load it into Adobe Illustrator (not Photoshop) to release the clipping mask. A clipping mask means that sections have been editied, on purpose. Why? Also notice it has 18 layers!! You'd never have all that digital "work" from a simple scanned piece of paper.

If you don't have Illustrator, I attached a JPG screengrab showing all the above. Notice all the edited frame areas. Someone put them there, on purpose.

Obama wants us to believe this is a simple scanned document, made by a typewriter in the early 1960's (long before computers). A simple paper scan would never have all those digital layers (with different fonts and cut-and-paste sections). The errors stick out more than a sore thumb. You'd think someone would at least have the brains to flatten all the layers before attempting to pass it off as a "legit" bitmap page scan.

I have not seen this mentioned on the TV news yet. Maybe it will be ignored, like Dan Rather's faked Microsoft Word documents on president Bush. But others have noticed this. The links below are from 2 other guys that discovered the same thing and they go into more technical detail (with enlargements of text edits and font changes). Remember, typewriters could not do all this in the 1960's:

http://market-ticker.org/post=185094

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=73096

Why is the fake so poorly done? Obviously places like the CIA or FBI could do a perfect job. My guess is that they told Obama to pound salt. And this is what you get when amateurs fake PDF files. Like my dad used to say, "That's the difference between a pro and a schmo"...

There are other things wrong too. Like the hospital name. The name was different in 1961. The name printed on the birth certificate is the "new" name (which changed in 1978).

Also, the National Review article which supposedly "debunks" the layers is complete BS. OCR programs do not create little bitty areas of edited regions (I've been using them for over 30 years). OCR does entire line-by-line logic. The small layer frames on the birth certificate were done by hand, piece by piece, for the purpose of constructing the document.


Here is my brother-in-law's response as well

I have also worked with technology for almost 14 years and heavily with PDF documents and scan/conversion tools (especially recently). I can COMPLETELY confirm that scanned (or converted) PDF documents do NOT contain layers. They, by design, contain a single layer (no clipping paths as well) and I will explain a little about why.
PDF [portable document format] was designed by (or at least made popular by, and enhanced by) Adobe. The reason they created this type of document was because all other methods of sending documents electronically (excluding fax) were modifiable (MS Word and Word Perfect). This type of document became so secure, and popular, that Bill Clinton signed the Digital Signatures Act in 1997 allowing people to actually sign Real Estate and Mortgage documentation (and more) as long as it was a PDF (with verified certificates).
Since then, people have come up with ways of editing these documents, ironically using tools developed by Adobe. Even the most high end scanners with OCR technology and conversion tools, there is a layer (no, not the same "layers") of security ingrained to prevent people from modifying the document. PDFs are almost ALWAYS a single layer.
As Don stated, a professional would always flatten a document to reduce the evidence of modification, especially considering it is literally 2-3 clicks of the mouse. Why this wasn't done is a mystery. The idea of having more then a single-layer flattened document from a scanned image is absolutely ludicrous. There is absolutely NO excuse to have more than one layer on this document; period.
I did not believe for one moment that the birth certificate was fake; until now. Don, what you sent proves to me, without a doubt, that there is foul play happening here. Again, there is NO reason this document should have been modified. What Don has found is incredible.

[Stary Hickory]

Snopes says he was born at Kapi'olani Medical Center for Women and Children according to Barbara Nelson, a teacher at Obama's prep school in Hawai'i. Don't know what that proves or disproves.

But who is David Sinclair, which is the name signed under "Attendant"? Is the attendant the obstetrician? Because, again, snopes reports the obstetrician who delivered Obama was Dr. Rodney T. West. And if the attendant is just a "witness" and not an obstetrician, then is it normal for a birth certificate to not have the name of the doctor who delivered the baby? Just curious. Cause I don't know.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

Hospital name is just fine, debunked already. The website simply used one of the unofficial names for the hospital. Whoever wrote it did not necessarily go back and use the technical name that appears on BCs from that period. I don't know who said this stuff about West, very possible they are either lying or are confused.

[idirtify]

Looked into it a bit more, the names they list on their website don't match anything. I think they have called their hospital different generalized names for the public and on official documentation its different. Just saying that is a logical reason why its listed as what it is. Kapiolani Maternity home is the first hospital, where I imagine Obama was born right? That means it might had have an internal name of Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital, or people refered to it as a Maternity home without the Gynecological part attached(not very tasteful to say the whole name).

So I don't think the name of the hospital is an issue. Easy test, get someone else's certificate from that time and look at it.



debunked for sure

http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/educating-the-confused-kapiolani-maternity-gynecological-hospital/

Well apparently the hospital name WAS imagined long before it was officially changed in 1978.

[idirtify]

I posted this in the other thread.. but here is what my uncle had to say on the topic:

This morning I heard that Obama's birth certificate was posted on the Whitehouse website as a PDF file. I later heard that some people were saying it was altered or faked. Not knowing what to expect, I decided to look for myself.

I have worked with PDF files for over 20 years. I'm also hands-on fluent with most major PC graphics applications over the last 30 years.

It's absolutely true that the document has been altered. Big time. In fact, it's worse than poorly done (with many obvious problems).

I actually discovered this before it made the news this morning.

Attached is the original Whitehouse PDF file from 8:00 AM this morning (in case they decide to flatten the layers and re-post it later). You can load it into Adobe Illustrator (not Photoshop) to release the clipping mask. A clipping mask means that sections have been editied, on purpose. Why? Also notice it has 18 layers!! You'd never have all that digital "work" from a simple scanned piece of paper.

If you don't have Illustrator, I attached a JPG screengrab showing all the above. Notice all the edited frame areas. Someone put them there, on purpose.

Obama wants us to believe this is a simple scanned document, made by a typewriter in the early 1960's (long before computers). A simple paper scan would never have all those digital layers (with different fonts and cut-and-paste sections). The errors stick out more than a sore thumb. You'd think someone would at least have the brains to flatten all the layers before attempting to pass it off as a "legit" bitmap page scan.

I have not seen this mentioned on the TV news yet. Maybe it will be ignored, like Dan Rather's faked Microsoft Word documents on president Bush. But others have noticed this. The links below are from 2 other guys that discovered the same thing and they go into more technical detail (with enlargements of text edits and font changes). Remember, typewriters could not do all this in the 1960's:

http://market-ticker.org/post=185094

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=73096

Why is the fake so poorly done? Obviously places like the CIA or FBI could do a perfect job. My guess is that they told Obama to pound salt. And this is what you get when amateurs fake PDF files. Like my dad used to say, "That's the difference between a pro and a schmo"...

There are other things wrong too. Like the hospital name. The name was different in 1961. The name printed on the birth certificate is the "new" name (which changed in 1978).

Also, the National Review article which supposedly "debunks" the layers is complete BS. OCR programs do not create little bitty areas of edited regions (I've been using them for over 30 years). OCR does entire line-by-line logic. The small layer frames on the birth certificate were done by hand, piece by piece, for the purpose of constructing the document.


Here is my brother-in-law's response as well

I have also worked with technology for almost 14 years and heavily with PDF documents and scan/conversion tools (especially recently). I can COMPLETELY confirm that scanned (or converted) PDF documents do NOT contain layers. They, by design, contain a single layer (no clipping paths as well) and I will explain a little about why.
PDF [portable document format] was designed by (or at least made popular by, and enhanced by) Adobe. The reason they created this type of document was because all other methods of sending documents electronically (excluding fax) were modifiable (MS Word and Word Perfect). This type of document became so secure, and popular, that Bill Clinton signed the Digital Signatures Act in 1997 allowing people to actually sign Real Estate and Mortgage documentation (and more) as long as it was a PDF (with verified certificates).
Since then, people have come up with ways of editing these documents, ironically using tools developed by Adobe. Even the most high end scanners with OCR technology and conversion tools, there is a layer (no, not the same "layers") of security ingrained to prevent people from modifying the document. PDFs are almost ALWAYS a single layer.
As Don stated, a professional would always flatten a document to reduce the evidence of modification, especially considering it is literally 2-3 clicks of the mouse. Why this wasn't done is a mystery. The idea of having more then a single-layer flattened document from a scanned image is absolutely ludicrous. There is absolutely NO excuse to have more than one layer on this document; period.
I did not believe for one moment that the birth certificate was fake; until now. Don, what you sent proves to me, without a doubt, that there is foul play happening here. Again, there is NO reason this document should have been modified. What Don has found is incredible.


OK. Just trying to keep up with the latest…
Wrong hospital name: debunked.
Multiple layers on PDF copy: active.

[Stary Hickory]

OK. Just trying to keep up with the latest…
Wrong hospital name: debunked.
Multiple layers on PDF copy: active.

Unless this OCR thing will do that. The thing is some parts of the text are not layered. I mean it makes no sense that someone would leave the "E" on none still attached...and erase the rest. Unless these were "markers" for overlaying new text down. But that is unlikely as it is all old typewriter style. If you look at it objectively why are there parts of the text that remain on the background? Why would someone do this? Split letters out and look at the dates, some of them are hand written...yet we are to believe that someone altered other dates leaving the 1 in place and working around it.

This all leans towards a computer program doing it automatically...but a little imperfectly.

[Maestro232]

It's fake. And because it is so obviously fake, Why? Incompetence? Political ploy? Coup? What's going on here?

[kahless]

It's fake. And because it is so obviously fake, Why? Incompetence? Political ploy? Coup? What's going on here?

One take on this is debating over the certificate is exactly what they want. The race card is now in play to be used to crush the opposition over this issue if they can keep it going up until the election.

[Maestro232]

One take on this is debating over the certificate is exactly what they want. The race card is now in play to be used to crush the opposition over this issue if they can keep it going up until the election.

The reason that doesn't seem likely to me is that it's so obviously fake that even non-birthers know it. So how does this help Obama isntead of just make him look like a jerk to even his supporters? ....or maybe I'm overestimating the rationality of his supporters....

[idirtify]

Update on latest:
Wrong hospital name: mostly debunked.
Multiple layers on PDF copy: active.
Wrong race name (“African”): active.
Wrong country name (“Kenya”): active?

[jmdrake]

Because it never friggin ends. The more evidence thrown at you the more BS you throw back. At some point enough is enough.

The whole point of asking for the document to be released is to scrutinize it to see if it's authentic. Maybe it will be shown to be authentic, maybe it won't be. But to summarily dismiss all challenges because an unverified PDF is put up on a website is silly.

[moostraks]

The reason that doesn't seem likely to me is that it's so obviously fake that even non-birthers know it. So how does this help Obama isntead of just make him look like a jerk to even his supporters? ....or maybe I'm overestimating the rationality of his supporters....

If responses on various websites are indicative of his supporters rationality you are way overestimating them. I agree with kahless this puts the racist issue back in to play hard core. Look for the newsletters to again become an issue.

[fisharmor]

Wrong country name (“Kenya”): active?

Well, just wikipedia research, but...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Colony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kenya#Kenyatta_regime:_1963-1978
Kenya was still a British colony in 1961. It didn't gain total independence until 1963 as mentioned. But it was in the works from about the mid-50's.
I think the larger question is this:
Would anything be put on his birth certificate denoting the fact that his father was at the time probably still a British subject?
GB generally takes these things seriously. I don't know if that would translate into his son's birth certificate.

[Pericles]

The whole point of asking for the document to be released is to scrutinize it to see if it's authentic. Maybe it will be shown to be authentic, maybe it won't be. But to summarily dismiss all challenges because an unverified PDF is put up on a website is silly.

And if it had been released 3 years ago, it probably would not have gotten the scrutiny it is now going to get.

[politicsNproverbs]

I read somewhere that Kenya was not "Kenya" until 1963, when it became independent. Can anyone verify this? If this is true, then this would be another interesting mistake, besides the hospital name.

That would have been a great blunder, but per wiki, 1963 is merely the year Kenya became an Independent nation. The territory of the same name was around long before that. Per Yahoo Answers, the British came up with the name Kenya as follows:


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_did_the_name_kenya_come_from

Where did the name kenya come from?

Kenya is named after a mountain of the same name. It was given by the Kikuyu people who lived around present day Mt. Kenya which they referred to as Kirinyaga or Kerenyaga, meaning 'mountain of whiteness' because of its snow capped peak. Mt Kirinyaga which was the main landmark became synonymous with the territory the British later claimed as their colony. However, the name Kenya arose out of the inability of the British and others to pronounce Kirinyaga correctly.

The British began moving into the area in the late 1800's, so I'm guessing the area became known as Kenya from around that time forward:


http://www.kenya-information-guide.com/kenya-history.html

The colonial history of Kenya dates from the Berlin Conference of 1885, when the European powers first partitioned East Africa into spheres of influence. In 1895, the U.K. Government established the East African Protectorate and, soon after, opened the fertile highlands to white settlers. The settlers were allowed a voice in government even before it was officially made a U.K. colony in 1920, but Africans were prohibited from direct political participation until 1944.

[pacelli]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-We8ogMQ-U

[BlackTerrel]

The whole point of asking for the document to be released is to scrutinize it to see if it's authentic. Maybe it will be shown to be authentic, maybe it won't be. But to summarily dismiss all challenges because an unverified PDF is put up on a website is silly.

Nope. There are some people who will never be convinced. Watch.

[Bruno]

Nope. There are some people who will never be convinced. Watch.

There are some such as you who strangely refuse to question. I posted this on another thread, but it applies to you as well.


Everything is fake.

How do we know that Obama isn't manipulating our computer and television screens?

He may not even have a forged birth certificate. It may all be a computer generated image. Has anyone who was not under Obama's control seen the actual piece of paper? I think not!

Wrap your heads around that one, tin foil hatters!

For that matter, how do we know Obama is real? Has any of you actually seen and touched him?

This may go even deeper than the Mossad, SPECTRE, the Bilderbergers, et al.

It's possible that we are being controlled by agents from the Planet Rejak 9 who have installed the fake Obama into the Presidency to keep us calm until they come to take us away and turn us into Soylent Green!

Make sure your tin foil hats on tight, my fellow birthers, we're in for a bumpy (and insane) ride!

This is the model I recommend (the male model here is shown posting on RPF, even as Obama tries to control his mind):

http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/i_0586.JPG

I wish I could blindly believe things like you and others, and accept them at face value when they have been oddly hidden from the public for years and millions have been spent to hide them from the public. When this birth certificate was released, I wish I could just say to myself, "See, there ya go, people within the first few hours are already finding many issues with its authenticity, but I will choose to think they are crazy , must be racists, and that Obama has nothing to gain, so why would he lie?"

It must be blissful.

http://i55.tinypic.com/anygir.jpg

[Bruno]

By the way, myself and other always said if it does get released it should be independently verified. Why would it not be? There a a dozen isses with it. Is it so wrong to question?

[jmdrake]

Nope. There are some people who will never be convinced. Watch.

I don't think you actually read what I wrote and you just put up a canned response. Whether there are "some people" who will never be convinced is irrelevant to the fact that there are problems with the BC that was released. There are many people in the middle (like myself) who could go either way. Your flippancy isn't helping your argument.

[BlackTerrel]

I don't think you actually read what I wrote and you just put up a canned response. Whether there are "some people" who will never be convinced is irrelevant to the fact that there are problems with the BC that was released. There are many people in the middle (like myself) who could go either way. Your flippancy isn't helping your argument.

When will there not be problems with the Birth Certificate? I don't friggin buy it. There are "layers"? Yeah right.

These people are not your friend.

[jmdrake]

When will there not be problems with the Birth Certificate? I don't friggin buy it. There are "layers"? Yeah right.

These people are not your friend.

You aren't my friend either. It's not about friendship. It's about the truth. Even Obama defenders admit there are layers. They just came up with a cockamamie "it was because of OCR" argument. I don't buy that. I'd love to see something definitive. If you're going to swallow whatever comes out that's on you.

[Don Lapre]

By the way, myself and other always said if it does get released it should be independently verified. Why would it not be? There a a dozen isses with it. Is it so wrong to question?

Of course it should and will be seriously questioned.

There are multiple abnormalities that pop out with very little effort put into finding them.

Beyond that, when a person goes to great lengths to keep a document hidden - and then goes ahead and releases the document, does it make any sense at all to just smile and say, "Oh, see, he did have it after all. It must be legit. Next!"

LMAO!


This is just preseason, anyway.
The 'game' begins when Corsi's book comes out.

[idirtify]

When will there not be problems with the Birth Certificate? I don't friggin buy it. There are "layers"? Yeah right.

These people are not your friend.

When will there not be disguised allegiance to power? When will there not be less-disguised attacks on people who question power? I don’t know when. Maybe never. But that is no basis for me to stop advocating individual liberty or opposing its enemies.

[Bruno]

Of course it should and will be seriously questioned.

There are multiple abnormalities that pop out with very little effort put into finding them.

Beyond that, when a person goes to great lengths to keep a document hidden - and then goes ahead and releases the document, does it make any sense at all to just smile and say, "Oh, see, he did have it after all. It must be legit. Next!"

LMAO!


This is just preseason, anyway.
The 'game' begins when Corsi's book comes out.

Any why is the media not asking, and not interviewing, Obama's close friend the Governor of Hawaii who "searched" for it and couldn't find it and said it appeared one did not exist? And then suddenly it is reproduced from a book listing it in supposedly chronological order? WTF? No red flags? Right.

[HarryBrowneLives]

I don’t think forgetting to dot an “i” invalidates anything, but I do think listing the birthplace as a hospital name that was not even imagined for another 15 years invalidates a birth certificate. Don’t you? Or are you not really here to discuss such questions (beyond calling them “technicalities”)?

No, I'm really not here to discuss it. I would rather discuss things besides the "to infinity and beyond/Shroud of Turin" Birther thingy like actual issues that might have some bearing on the future of my children and country if it can still be saved. It's not so much that they're "technicalities" as that the issue is politically irrelevent. I would rather spend my time and research working and advocating matters that actually have some small chance in hell of success in that I've been fighting for Libertarian ideas and ideals in the wilderness for the last 25+ years when most of the people involved in the Birther movement couldn't spell Libertarian.

In other words, it's still a semi-free country and you guys are welcomed to discuss and investigate long after Obama has left the White House. I just feel like there's an opportunity cost in that many could be spending time helping the Paul's or something else that may have an effect on our freedom.

[Don Lapre]

More thoughts to be posted later.

[idirtify]

No, I'm really not here to discuss it. I would rather discuss things besides the "to infinity and beyond/Shroud of Turin" Birther thingy like actual issues that might have some bearing on the future of my children and country if it can still be saved. It's not so much that they're "technicalities" as that the issue is politically irrelevent. I would rather spend my time and research working and advocating matters that actually have some small chance in hell of success in that I've been fighting for Libertarian ideas and ideals in the wilderness for the last 25+ years when most of the people involved in the Birther movement couldn't spell Libertarian.

In other words, it's still a semi-free country and you guys are welcomed to discuss and investigate long after Obama has left the White House. I just feel like there's an opportunity cost in that many could be spending time helping the Paul's or something else that may have an effect on our freedom.

Do you typically spend 166 words to come into threads and tell posters that their thread is irrelevant and you would rather discuss other things? Do you realize that you could have been far more efficient by using zero words and not coming here at all?

[idirtify]

Any why is the media not asking, and not interviewing, Obama's close friend the Governor of Hawaii who "searched" for it and couldn't find it and said it appeared one did not exist? And then suddenly it is reproduced from a book listing it in supposedly chronological order? WTF? No red flags? Right.

Good point. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the media suck up to government more than with Obama and his eligibility. It will be interesting to see how Judge Napolitano handles all the inconsistencies with this latest BC (which, instead of answering questions, only poses more), or whether he ever will.

[Don Lapre]

Good piece by Joseph Farah.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=292553

Beyond the fact that there should have been a Supreme Court ruling on Barry's natural born status (or lack thereof) before the '08 election, I have three primary issues with the current document released by Obama.

1. Farah's point. He said:

First, let's look at the document itself. I would like you to compare and contrast it with what I call the "control" long-form birth certificate from Hawaii circa August 1961 – the one belonging to the Nordyke twins, born just one day later than Obama's reputed Aug. 4 birthdate.

What do you see?

Do you see two documents that provide the same information? No. Do you see two identical documents? No.

Why not?

It's a simple question. Why would two long-form birth certificates from Hawaii, filled out at the same hospital within 24 hours of each other be so different?


2. The Obama document has a certificate number which does not match what it ought to be in relation to the Nordyke certificates.


3. Is African a race? lol


I have many other issues too, and a lot of them involving forensics.


Point is, this matter certainly belongs in a court, with testimony from people directly involved with this document - and with proper cross examination of their testimony.

At the very least, it belongs in a congressional hearing.

[Pillowpants]

He still comes from a lineage of CIA people though.

Prove it.

[Pillowpants]

WND is complicit in this deception. The women who's name escapes me from the Hawaii Department of Health has already stated that they use the self-description as the race of the parents. That means when his father was asked he called himself "African"

[Don Lapre]

Hawaiian officials have been all over the map with their statements regarding Barry's documentation.

Testimony under oath - and then cross examination - is what is needed.


As it stands right now, this released document doesn't come close to cutting it, imo.

[cswake]

I wasn't one of the "birthers", but Denninger brings up some facts that make sense to me:

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=185202


See, the issue isn't layers. Yes, the layers are suspicious, but they're not the smoking gun. The smoking gun is that there are no chromatic artifacts in the Obama document, but the document is allegedly a color scan of an actual piece of paper, and we know it had to be a color scan because the background is allegedly color safety paper.

I'm really curious to hear document experts weigh-in on this issue going forward...

[Wicklowwolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkbsonw1sgQ

[Don Lapre]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMLdrrC1-xs


Explain away, Barry.

har har





Wheel out the gallows, boys!




Btw, when this thing begins to unravel (and it's coming very soon), it's gonna be complete U.S. chaos, imo.

The implications resulting from having this fraud operating at the top of our government for 2+ years will be utterly devastating.

Not since the Civil War will America have seen the level of upheaval that is gonna come from it.


jmo

[tpreitzel]

Explain away, Barry.

har har





Wheel out the gallows, boys!




Btw, when this thing begins to unravel (and it's coming very soon), it's gonna be complete U.S. chaos, imo.

The implications resulting from having this fraud operating at the top of our government for 2+ years will be utterly devastating.

Not since the Civil War will America have seen the level of upheaval that is gonna come from it.


jmo

Uh, oh, as I tiptoe through the ooze of coincidence ... ;)

[Ball]

The smoking gun is if you use Adobe Bridge the layers have different dates.

OCR my ass!

This is becoming a bit of a national IQ test.

[Don Lapre]

More.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B1eQRJILO2U0ZWUwODM0ZDktZTg2OC00Yzc0LWI4YzA tODBkZWU2YjBhZDU1&hl=en&authkey=CKv6_hg



This is not going to end well for Barry.

[dbill27]

I have good reason to believe that Don Lapre is a sock puppet account of another birther here at rpf.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Peace&Freedom]

Hawaiian officials have been all over the map with their statements regarding Barry's documentation.

Testimony under oath - and then cross examination - is what is needed.


As it stands right now, this released document doesn't come close to cutting it, imo.

Amen. In fact, can any of the supporters of the authenticity of the BC tell us with a straight face that as it stands, it would be a court admissible document, given its already identified artificial elements? Why are the fraudulent aspects of the alleged Kenyan BC pointed out instantly by anti-birthers whenever it gets brought up, yet they can't bring themselves to accept the just as evident signs of fraud in the WH document? And why is the fact of the Indonesian citizenship status Barry had as a child not more widely recognized, as it means he LOST whatever US citizenship status he had, wherever he was born?

The more I think on it, quite likely the reason most of Barry's key records are locked up like Fort Knox is that they would reveal he never naturalized upon returning to America (meaning an illegal alien is sitting in the White House), or that they DO document he became a naturalized citizen, which would also disqualify him from being President. The theater of showing his shaky "birth certificate" last week was probably in reaction to the passage (though the Gov did not sign it) of the Arizona law requiring presidential candidates to present a certified BC, and was meant to take the air out of similar bills being contemplated in other states.

[HarryBrowneLives]

Do you typically spend 166 words to come into threads and tell posters that their thread is irrelevant and you would rather discuss other things? Do you realize that you could have been far more efficient by using zero words and not coming here at all?

You are correct. (and that was three words too many). Next

[tropicangela]

You aren't my friend either. It's not about friendship. It's about the truth. Even Obama defenders admit there are layers. They just came up with a cockamamie "it was because of OCR" argument. I don't buy that. I'd love to see something definitive. If you're going to swallow whatever comes out that's on you.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=316749

Zebest PDF REPORT FILE
http://www.wnd.com/files/Obama_LFBC_Report_final_draft.pdf -

http://live.radioamerica.org/loudwater/player.pl?upload=12297&name=wnd


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMyBhco3Fwg

[idirtify]

Bizarro world! What past psychic or science fiction author could ever have predicted this political scenario? An unconstitutional/illegal president! Just looking at the YT comments, the pro-birther opinions look pretty unanimous. Before, they were usually split about even.