I fear I may have lost my good reptutation my local cops.

[Vessol]

I work at a gas station full time while I go to school. Yesterday I noticed that the cops were pulling people over left and right just on the stretch of main street that our store is located on, especially as they drove out of our store. I was curious, as it was the middle of the day so I doubted if there was that many drunk drivers.

Our store is a local hangout for the police, we give them free soft drinks and coffee and we're right next door to their station. In turn, they provide our store extra security and I've even been pulled over once for speeding and was dismissed because the officer knew me and just gave me a warning.

A cop came in and I asked him what was going on that had them pulling over so many people. He said, with a hint of proudness I might add, that they were pulling people for not wearing a seatbelt and issuing them a fine under 'Click it or a Ticket'. I asked how much the fine was, and he told me that it was 130$ and he had already pulled over 30 people over that day so far.

This just got me bothered, so after he left I made it a point to tell every customer that came into the store to make sure they put on their seatbelt because the cops are pulling people over for that.

Later that day another police officer came in and I decided to make a sarcastic remark of "So, I see you've been busy today". He nodded and talked on how they've been pulling people over.

I asked him politely what he thought about fining people 130$ for that. He then came on the offensive and asked "Don't tell me you're one of those crazy people who don't believe in wearing seatbelts." As I do wear a seatbelt, all the time, I informed him of this and told him simply that "Somebody that is not wearing a seatbelt is not a danger to anyone else, so how is it your business if they wear a seatbelt or not?"

He took a moment to digest this while he sipped on his free soda. He then got in that lovely stance that police always get into. You know the one where they rest their hands on their gun and tilt their head to the side and try to look down at you while they puff out their chest. He then told me that my personal safety is his top priority and job. I then pointed out "You know, there are some who would argue that soda is not safe to drink".

His face just soured then and he told me "I just enforce the laws, I don't write them". I then told him, admittedly shakily, that "It's your job to question those who pass the laws." He just shook his head and left. I know I'm going to get shit from my manager for this, but I couldn't just let that slide and do the little ego jerk that everyone else gives to police officers.

[Travlyr]

Nice work. :cool:

[acptulsa]

Well, all I can say is when I see the insanity of the lawmakers and the anger of the public is, I'm glad I'm not one of 'the middlemen'.

There was a discussion of federal involvement in highway funding a while back. Seatbelt laws and the .08 BAC standard on drunk driving laws are all part of that. There's a reason these things are so standardized nationwide. We need to repeal the federal fuel tax. Yesterday.

That said, I can't let your locality off the hook. Last I heard, seat belt tickets around here were still twenty-five bucks.

[Vessol]

Well, all I can say is when I see the insanity of the lawmakers and the anger of the public is, I'm glad I'm not one of 'the middlemen'.

There was a discussion of federal involvement in highway funding a while back. Seatbelt laws and the .08 BAC standard on drunk driving laws are all part of that. There's a reason these things are so standardized nationwide. We need to repeal the federal fuel tax. Yesterday.

That said, I can't let your locality off the hook. Last I heard, seat belt tickets around here were still twenty-five bucks.

In North Carolina, seat-belt enforcement is a primary enforcement. Meaning that that they can pull you over simply for not wearing a seatbelt and for no other reason. Whereas in other states, it's only a secondary enforcement, they have to pull you over for something else first. So that may add to the cost of why it is so expensive.

As for feeling sorry for the "middleman". I guess I'd feel more sorry for them if they actually had some kind of regret for what they are doing. I personally have never seen that. They think they are doing the right thing. I don't feel any remorse for those who are self-righteously enforcing those laws.

I also wanted to add a hilarious side story. A lady came in yesterday and when I told her to remember to wear her seatbelt, she asked me why. I informed her and then because it was slow, I gave my personal opinion on how someone not wearing a seatbelt is only a danger to themselves. She then said, with some conviction I might add, "Well you do know, they could fly out of the front window and hit someone else, so really they are a danger to others." I stared at her for a moment and then smiled and told her to have a nice day.

[TomtheTinker]

I got a ticket for not wearing my seat belt a couple months ago..so I go to court and I was the 1st one called up. I walk slowly to the judge look him in the eyes as he asked me what I plead..I simply reply

" I didn't tie my left shoe this morning" he was obviously confused so I continued " I didn't tie my left shoe this morning since that isn't the safe thing to do..are you going to give me a ticket for that also??"

slightly aggravated he tells me that I can plead not guilty and have a trial but knowing how that whole trial thing works I just simply pleaded guilty and went on with my day.

The seat belt law is bull shit..it has nothing to do with keeping us safe and has everything to do with $$$. I just thought I'd share that with you guys. Happy Easter.

[AtomiC]

Good for you, Vessol.

Once more people start questioning authority, then we are on a fast track to liberty.

[MelissaWV]

You did just fine, though the manager MIGHT be upset about it. I doubt it. The owner/manager's got that free soda thing going most likely because he gets cops coming in and out of his business, which discourages people (in theory) from robbing the place. It's not necessarily because he loves the police.

I give people warnings about the police, too, and encourage fellow employees to take different routes when I see the "click it or ticket" crap out. There are also speed traps all over the place, usually at the bottom of a hill so they can maximize the fine. I have had this all brought to my attention by a police officer before, but I've pointed out to them that they usually have their lights flashing and barricades up and announce ahead of time when there's to be a DUI checkpoint, too. They "warn" people about them.

That fine... $130... for a lot of people that's going to be a day's pay. For some, even more. Does he really think it's a good idea to pull people over for endangering themselves and docking them 20% of the week's pay for that? Possibly, but spot-on about the soda.

[acptulsa]

She then said, with some conviction I might add, "Well you do know, they could fly out of the front window and hit someone else, so really they are a danger to others."

So, my car comes to that rapid a stop that close to you, and you're worried about my flesh and bones hitting you? Really? What makes you think my grill and your intestines will still be distinguishable one from another at that point?

Someone was reaching. Hard. Don't assume from this defensive silliness that you didn't get through to her. No way she actually believed this.

[nobody's_hero]

No, you did the right thing. You said something that no one has probably ever thought to say to that cop. (or if they did, it was probably while they were being written a ticket, so he probably wrote it off as trying to get out of a ticket).

Hell, he might have even started thinking about your comments after he left.

Cops don't usually get challenged like that, so his response was not surprising.

Plus, you said you were polite, so if there's any negativity on his part, it's only because he makes it so.

Seatbelt fines around here are $15. I'm not sure if that's a statewide fine in Georgia or a locally-defined one.

[lester1/2jr]

thanks for peering into my car officer. I feel so much safer now.

I'm a courier, I get in and out of my car 50 times a day. I'd have callouses on my hands if i put my seatbelt on each time!

[IDefendThePlatform]

In North Carolina, seat-belt enforcement is a primary enforcement. Meaning that that they can pull you over simply for not wearing a seatbelt and for no other reason. Whereas in other states, it's only a secondary enforcement, they have to pull you over for something else first. So that may add to the cost of why it is so expensive.

As for feeling sorry for the "middleman". I guess I'd feel more sorry for them if they actually had some kind of regret for what they are doing. I personally have never seen that. They think they are doing the right thing. I don't feel any remorse for those who are self-righteously enforcing those laws.

I also wanted to add a hilarious side story. A lady came in yesterday and when I told her to remember to wear her seatbelt, she asked me why. I informed her and then because it was slow, I gave my personal opinion on how someone not wearing a seatbelt is only a danger to themselves. She then said, with some conviction I might add, "Well you do know, they could fly out of the front window and hit someone else, so really they are a danger to others." I stared at her for a moment and then smiled and told her to have a nice day.

Great job, Vessol. Also, studies have shown that when people wear seat belts they are more likely to drive faster and less safely. So actually, seat belt laws make drivers MORE dangerous to other drivers.

[nobody's_hero]

I also wanted to add a hilarious side story. A lady came in yesterday and when I told her to remember to wear her seatbelt, she asked me why. I informed her and then because it was slow, I gave my personal opinion on how someone not wearing a seatbelt is only a danger to themselves. She then said, with some conviction I might add, "Well you do know, they could fly out of the front window and hit someone else, so really they are a danger to others." I stared at her for a moment and then smiled and told her to have a nice day.

Actually, that wasn't a terrible point (although your odds of hitting someone after you fly out of the car are minimal, if someone is in the car with you, it's a different story). One of the few times I make an effort to wear a seatbelt is if I have someone else in the car with me. In the event of a crash, I don't want my body to cause injury to someone else because I was flopping around in the car. Don't laugh it off:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rww9oFNoNi8

But you definitely aren't bothering anyone else if you're in your car by yourself and you aren't wearing a seatbelt.

[Matthew Zak]

As long as there are laws in place which could potentially put an innocent person in jail for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, I completely support seat belt laws. I don't need manslaughter charges because some idiot crossed the median, hit my car, and killed himself.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

nice work Vessol. my rep message got cut off. I hope they don't start messing with you for that.

[MelissaWV]

No idea who came up with the current seatbelts in cars, but I have problems with them sliding all over the place. I'm also not strangely asymmetrical enough for them to lie flat. I share a vehicle, so I can't get the nifty harnesses that would make things better. My mom is 4'11"; she gets choked by the seatbelt slipping up. In the event of an accident, I'm thinking that between the seatbelt and the airbag she would be decapitated.

But at least she's safe!

[IDefendThePlatform]

As long as there are laws in place which could potentially put an innocent person in jail for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, I completely support seat belt laws. I don't need manslaughter charges because some idiot crossed the median, hit my car, and killed himself.

If they crossed the median, the accident is their fault and you are blameless, no?

[cheapseats]

So, my car comes to that rapid a stop that close to you, and you're worried about my flesh and bones hitting you? Really? What makes you think my grill and your intestines will still be distinguishable one from another at that point?

Someone was reaching. Hard. Don't assume from this defensive silliness that you didn't get through to her. No way she actually believed this.

Agreed.

HOWEVER, if your injuries in an accident that is my fault OR THAT IS NO-FAULT are worse - probably far worse and possibly needlessly fatal - for not wearing a seatbelt, my and ultimately all insurance rates increase to provide for larger medical bills and higher liability awards.

"Follow me on Twitter" to be assured that I routinely lambaste Law Enforcement for LYING IN WAIT TO PENALIZE THEIR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN.

I have a theory that commands to comport themselves LIKE SNEAKY LITTLE PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE GIRLS in some situations promotes venting of machismo BRUTALITY in other situations, to compensate.

[brandon]

nicely done matey. There is a fine line between being rude and respectfully disagreeing, and I think you walked it nicely.

[acptulsa]

In the event of an accident, I'm thinking that between the seatbelt and the airbag she would be decapitated.

But at least she's safe!

You just had to mention air bags. They're the biggest reason for seat belt laws, which is pretty ironic since they were originally sold as a way to protect people who never buckle up. But if you're not wearing the seatbelt, an airbag will kill you in a fender bender. I've never owned a car so equipped, and when I have to I'll disconnect the one in the steering wheel immediately and beyond a shadow of a doubt. Much more harm than good.

Suppose you're driving on a mountain road and someone sideswipes you. Now you get to regain control before you smash through the guard rail and fall down the mountainside. How are you supposed to do that when the airbag has just knocked your hands off of the steering wheel? If you actually keep your hands on the wheel, both of your wrists will be broken.

I believe there's a reason these things turn the car into a padded cell. They're insane.

As for the fact that one size fits none when it comes to seat belts, there are two major factors there--convenience and federal government micromismanagement. You'll never find anything so unsafe in a racing car. And if you were to try the seat belt in an antique 1970 model, odds are you'll find it superior to the modern variations.

[Travlyr]

HOWEVER, if your injuries in an accident that is my fault OR THAT IS NO-FAULT are worse - probably far worse and possibly needlessly fatal - for not wearing a seatbelt, my and ultimately all insurance rates increase to provide for larger medical bills and higher liability awards.

On the other hand,

HOWEVER, if your injuries in an accident that is my fault OR THAT IS NO-FAULT are worse - probably far worse and possibly needlessly fatal - for wearing a seatbelt, my and ultimately all insurance rates increase to provide for larger medical bills and higher liability awards.

My insurance rates did not go down when wearing a seatbelt became a law. And medical bills have never been reduced in my lifetime.

[MelissaWV]

Yep, hence why I mentioned the harness. Since the vehicle is slightly more my mother's than mine, I'm not about to change it. I'll be getting something 100% my own, soon, and it will have no airbags and boob-friendly 5-point belting.

Don't worry, though; technology is striving to find even dumber things to do in the name of safety every single day.

http://images.fastcompany.com/upload/Screen%20shot%202010-06-08%20at%206.11.20%20PM.png

[cheapseats]

I work at a gas station full time while I go to school. Yesterday I noticed that the cops were pulling people over left and right just on the stretch of main street that our store is located on, especially as they drove out of our store. I was curious, as it was the middle of the day so I doubted if there was that many drunk drivers.

Our store is a local hangout for the police, we give them free soft drinks and coffee and we're right next door to their station. In turn, they provide our store extra security and I've even been pulled over once for speeding and was dismissed because the officer knew me and just gave me a warning.

A cop came in and I asked him what was going on that had them pulling over so many people. He said, with a hint of proudness I might add, that they were pulling people for not wearing a seatbelt and issuing them a fine under 'Click it or a Ticket'. I asked how much the fine was, and he told me that it was 130$ and he had already pulled over 30 people over that day so far.

This just got me bothered, so after he left I made it a point to tell every customer that came into the store to make sure they put on their seatbelt because the cops are pulling people over for that.


Right on.




Later that day another police officer came in and I decided to make a sarcastic remark of "So, I see you've been busy today". He nodded and talked on how they've been pulling people over.

I asked him politely what he thought about fining people 130$ for that. He then came on the offensive and asked "Don't tell me you're one of those crazy people who don't believe in wearing seatbelts." As I do wear a seatbelt, all the time, I informed him of this and told him simply that "Somebody that is not wearing a seatbelt is not a danger to anyone else, so how is it your business if they wear a seatbelt or not?"


POLITE sarcasm?

How it's "his business" whether people are wearing a seatbelt or not is 'cuz he collects his paycheck by ENFORCING LAWS.

That Law is unjust and Law Enforcement is capricious doesn't change his JOB DESCRIPTION.

What say you to Troops?



He took a moment to digest this while he sipped on his free soda. He then got in that lovely stance that police always get into. You know the one where they rest their hands on their gun and tilt their head to the side and try to look down at you while they puff out their chest. He then told me that my personal safety is his top priority and job. I then pointed out "You know, there are some who would argue that soda is not safe to drink".


Really nicely written.




His face just soured then and he told me "I just enforce the laws, I don't write them". I then told him, admittedly shakily, that "It's your job to question those who pass the laws." He just shook his head and left. I know I'm going to get shit from my manager for this, but I couldn't just let that slide and do the little ego jerk that everyone else gives to police officers.

HIS job or OUR job, to question those who pass the laws?

It is purely speculation, what goes on inside another's head, but I would have perceived the exchange as mildly confrontational, and highly judgmental.

It is also speculation, whether the exchange would have continued if you had posed a question as applicable to All Americans, rather than issue a remark as applicable only to Paycheck Collectors who (granted, grotesquely) follow orders by fining and penalizing Americans at every turn:

But isn't it OUR job to question those who pass laws? Aren't there so many WORSE problems to address? Aren't hardworking people already REELING from low wages, high prices, high taxes and low morale? Do you ever feel like Officials pit you against the Public by steering you into Revenue Generation - make Police the Heavies, while Officials remain safe in Ivory Towers?

[Vessol]

Right on.

POLITE sarcasm?

How it's "his business" whether people are wearing a seatbelt or not is 'cuz he collects his paycheck by ENFORCING LAWS.

That Law is unjust and Law Enforcement is capricious doesn't change his JOB DESCRIPTION.

What say you to Troops?

Really nicely written.

HIS job or OUR job, to question those who pass the laws?

It is purely speculation, what goes on inside another's head, but I would have perceived the exchange as mildly confrontational, and highly judgmental.

It is also speculation, whether the exchange would have continued if you had posed a question as applicable to All Americans, rather than issue a remark as applicable only to Paycheck Collectors who (granted, grotesquely) follow orders by fining and penalizing Americans at every turn:

But isn't it OUR job to question those who pass laws? Aren't there so many WORSE problems to address? Aren't hardworking people already REELING from low wages, high prices, high taxes and low morale? Do you ever feel like Officials pit you against the Public by steering you into Revenue Generation - kinda like they make police the Heavies, while Officials remain safe in Ivory Towers?

Yes, polite sarcasm. I'm always courteous and polite, however you can do this with an edge of sarcasm as well.

And believe me, I am no glass cannon firing wildly at only a few people. I'm aiming my rhetorical ironsights every which way at any and all responsible. I'll admit I could've made myself more clear and less confrontational, but let's just say that I'm not the most comfortable person when it comes to talking with someone who is holding a hand on their gun casually and has the right to beat the shit out of me.

[cheapseats]

My insurance rates did not go down when wearing a seatbelt became a law.

They won't go down for brushing your teeth, either. But your DENTAL EXPENSES will vary according to maintenance AND PREVENTATIVE MEASURES, such as avoiding sweets and not opening bottles with your teeth.



And medical bills have never been reduced in my lifetime.

Nor have they gone as high as they'll go.

[speciallyblend]

strongly suggest you job hunt in colorado;) glad i wasn't there i would of got arrested;) United States of Colorado ,Wolverines!!!!!

[TNforPaul45]

Vessol you are a brave human being. You gambled with your life my friend. Notice how his first reaction was a threat reaction, kill or be killed.

"A mundane just thought. My masters didnt give me a routine for that, i feel fear and trepedation at citizens thinking. Good thing this weapon is here."

A large number of cops have been ingrained with the idea that the citizenry are their enemies. We can change that through ideas, because we are the only ones standing up for them, in reality.

[cheapseats]

Yes, polite sarcasm. I'm always courteous and polite, however you can do this with an edge of sarcasm as well.

And believe me, I am no glass cannon firing wildly at only a few people. I'm aiming my rhetorical ironsights every which way at any and all responsible. I'll admit I could've made myself more clear and less confrontational, but let's just say that I'm not the most comfortable person when it comes to talking with someone who is holding a hand on their gun casually and has the right to beat the shit out of me.


I'm with ya. I maintain that POLITE SARCASM is not a good tool with Police.

I also maintain that it is OUR job just as much as it is THEIR job to question those who pass Law. Particularly since WE pay both Lawmakers and Law Enforcement.

[AGRP]

I think the cop is right.

The people are the ones who voted for and are going along with the law.

[Travlyr]

They won't go down for brushing your teeth, either. But your DENTAL EXPENSES will vary according to maintenance AND PREVENTATIVE MEASURES, such as avoiding sweets and not opening bottles with your teeth.




Nor have they gone as high as they'll go.

So you weren't being serious about the use of seatbelts reducing costs?

I would be much safer if I wore full body armor every time I went outside of my house too, but hopefully they'll stop passing laws to keep me safe before it gets that bad.

[cheapseats]

So you weren't being serious about the use of seatbelts reducing costs?

I am dead serious about seatbelt use having a mitigating impact on the medical expense portion of vehicular accidents. Whatever INCREASES the costs of accidents INCREASES the cost of insurance. Whatever increases the cost of "medical" ALWAYS increases the cost of insurance. Medical is to Insurance as a WILD CARD is to poker.

Should there be LAW requiring use of seatbelts, that is another question.

Me, I'm okay with people filing a Liability Waiver, that whatever extraneous damage/death is due to absence of a seatbelt is the problem of the person thru the windshield.

Just like I'm okay with Professional Athletes using "performance enhancing drugs," so long as they waive liability for negative consequences of the drugs' use. I ask, for WHOM would "performance enhancing drugs" EXIST, if not Professional Athletes? And limp dicks, a'course.




I would be much safer if I wore full body armor every time I went outside of my house too, but hopefully they'll stop passing laws to keep me safe before it gets that bad.

And flying remains safer than driving, Terrorists and TSA Terrorists notwithstanding.

Libertarians and "liberty-leaning Republicans" will gain few or fewer supporters by advocating repeal of Seat Belt laws, at THIS stage of Nanny State.

Given the MOOD of the country, the winnable fight is the capricious, rapacious and incessant taxing/fining/penalizing of Americans, to replenish coffers SQUANDERED by bad-faith officiating.

NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION still plays in Peoria.

[Travlyr]

I am dead serious about seatbelt use having a mitigating impact on the medical expense portion of vehicular accidents. Whatever INCREASES the costs of accidents INCREASES the cost of insurance. Whatever increases the cost of "medical" ALWAYS increases the cost of insurance. Medical is to Insurance as a WILD CARD is to poker.

Okay, then how come my insurance rates did not go down when they started forcing us to use seatbelts?

[MelissaWV]

Okay, then how come my insurance rates did not go down when they started forcing us to use seatbelts?

cheapseats is mostly correct on this one, but I think a slight misuse of terms is what's putting you off.

Vehicles with seatbelts actually do receive a discount. Vehicles with airbags receive a discount. The seatbelt one is hardly noticed on your insurance, considering nearly all vehicles on the street today have seatbelts.

Your insurance overall did not magically go down across the board, no. It wouldn't. What changes in the hypotheticals cheapseats is discussing is the cost of the CLAIM. If your insurance has to pay out a $10,000 claim versus a $1,000 claim, your insurance will go up more for the former. If you were involved in a contributory negligence accident where someone was injured, it will be viewed a certain way. If you were involved in one where someone died, it will be viewed a certain way.

To summarize, the difference is in the outcome of the accident. You get a discount based on safety features on your car (anti-lock brakes, too, for instance).

Ideally, though, this would be how people decide to wear seatbelts... and not because the Government is going to fine them a day's work for not doing so.

[mport1]

What a bunch of thugs. You should not let them into the store.

[MelissaWV]

What a bunch of thugs. You should not let them into the store.

Not his choice, and as I pointed out a lot of gas station or convenience store folks will give the cops free soda from the fountain (costs them almost nothing). Most people who'd rob the place will look for another target if there are cops parked at the business.

[Matt Collins]

If you are going to change people's minds you must (usually) first have rapport with them. If you can get these cops actually thinking about what they are doing you might be able to actually change their minds about this and dishearten them causing them to lose their will to do it. Maybe your questions will tug at their soul over the long term.

Have you ever heard Sheriff Mack's story about how he eventually ended up changing his worldview?

[james1906]

Not his choice, and as I pointed out a lot of gas station or convenience store folks will give the cops free soda from the fountain (costs them almost nothing). Most people who'd rob the place will look for another target if there are cops parked at the business.

Yeah, this is where the whole cops love donuts thing came from. Donut shops are one of the few places to eat at night and the cops would get free donuts to prevent robberies.

[Travlyr]

Seatbelt usage is smart, imo, but these thugs are just funding their paychecks.

I was just making the point that seatbelt usage does not reduce insurance premiums or medical costs. People make that claim, but if it was a true statement, then seatbelt usage would indeed result in lower medical costs and lower insurance premiums. They don't, so it is not accurate to make the claim.

Real cost savings would result if fewer accidents was the goal. Most drivers do not understand safe driving practices. Defensive driving used to be taught to everyone. Now we have airbags and seatbelts so that WHEN you get T-boned or smashed... your bones are less broken than they would have otherwise been.

Courteous, careful, conscience driving would reduce the number of accidents and thereby reduce the associated medical costs and insurance rates.

[Anti Federalist]

Nothing better illustrates the validity of the "slippery slope" argument better than primary seat belt enforcement.

I was living in NJ when it became the second state to pass a mandatory seat belt law.

At the time the cops, legislators and governor swore, literally, on the state house steps, that they would never support or push for "primary enforcement".

It took less than three years for them to break that promise and start lobbying for primary enforcement.

Now it's progressed to roadblocks and checkpoints.

Vessol, I wish I knew you were in NC, I just passed through there last week.


In North Carolina, seat-belt enforcement is a primary enforcement. Meaning that that they can pull you over simply for not wearing a seatbelt and for no other reason. Whereas in other states, it's only a secondary enforcement, they have to pull you over for something else first. So that may add to the cost of why it is so expensive.

As for feeling sorry for the "middleman". I guess I'd feel more sorry for them if they actually had some kind of regret for what they are doing. I personally have never seen that. They think they are doing the right thing. I don't feel any remorse for those who are self-righteously enforcing those laws.

I also wanted to add a hilarious side story. A lady came in yesterday and when I told her to remember to wear her seatbelt, she asked me why. I informed her and then because it was slow, I gave my personal opinion on how someone not wearing a seatbelt is only a danger to themselves. She then said, with some conviction I might add, "Well you do know, they could fly out of the front window and hit someone else, so really they are a danger to others." I stared at her for a moment and then smiled and told her to have a nice day.

[Anti Federalist]

So you weren't being serious about the use of seatbelts reducing costs?

I would be much safer if I wore full body armor every time I went outside of my house too, but hopefully they'll stop passing laws to keep me safe before it gets that bad.

You jest, don't give them ideas.

The "Safety Uber Alles" mindset is the single greatest threat to freedom that exists right now.

Under the guise of "keeping you safe" there is nothing, and I mean nothing, that would not be outside the realm of state regulation or restriction or outright banning.

I see it in my place of business, it has literally gotten so bad that you have to fill out a 7 page Job Safety Analysis and Risk Assessment to take a shit.

[payme_rick]

hmm, judging by the officer's reaction in your last paragraph, I'd say you may have gotten him to think about it... you may have thrown a little mind-bomb in his head... good work!

[Anti Federalist]

hmm, judging by the officer's reaction in your last paragraph, I'd say you may have gotten him to think about it... you may have thrown a little mind-bomb in his head... good work!

Aren't those great?

And the best thing about them is, you never have any idea when they will go off.

That mind grenade may sit there for years, it's fuse doing a slow burn, until one day, BOOM!

[Travlyr]

You jest, don't give them ideas.

The "Safety Uber Alles" mindset is the single greatest threat to freedom that exists right now.

Under the guise of "keeping you safe" there is nothing, and I mean nothing, that would not be outside the realm of state regulation or restriction or outright banning.

I see it in my place of business, it has literally gotten so bad that you have to fill out a 7 page Job Safety Analysis and Risk Assessment to take a shit.

No wonder you have so many green bars... you make a lot of sense. ;)

I understand that safety mindset is one of my greatest enemies. That's why I get so worked up by lies spread by them. I quit flying years ago because they wouldn't let me take my Leatherman with me. Nobody is safer because I don't fly on airplanes, and I still carry my knife wherever I go.

[Anti Federalist]

No wonder you have so many green bars... you make a lot of sense. ;)

I understand that safety mindset is one of my greatest enemies. That's why I get so worked up by lies spread by them. I quit flying years ago because they wouldn't let me take my Leatherman with me. Nobody is safer because I don't fly on airplanes, and I still carry my knife wherever I go.

Thanks brother, much appreciated.

It's tough to combat, but it can be done, look at the gun rights movement and the anti motorcycle helmet movement for lessons.

[payme_rick]

Aren't those great?

And the best thing about them is, you never have any idea when they will go off.

That mind grenade may sit there for years, it's fuse doing a slow burn, until one day, BOOM!

yep... you don't have to convince someone all at once because most of the time you can't...

[WyoLiberty]

Good for you Vessol...I wish I could respond with such diplomacy...but I usually get too worked up to make a compelling argument...I am better at writing a compelling argument than having a verbal discussion in a charged situation...

[emazur]

Nobody wants to know about the unintended consequences of fining people to make them safe. Let's say I'm out $130 for not wearing a seatbelt. That's $130 less I can use to keep myself healthy or safe by not being able to buy healthier food for a month or 2, not to be able to start a gym membership, not to be able to buy exercise equipment, not to be able to perform auto-maintenance to keep the car running running safely, not to be able to use on gas money so I might have to use a more dangerous transportation method like riding a bike, not to be able to buy medicine for an illness for myself or family member, not to be able to afford safety equipment for a child's sports activity, etc. These fees hit low income citizens the hardest

[Kylie]

Nobody wants to know about the unintended consequences of fining people to make them safe. Let's say I'm out $130 for not wearing a seatbelt. That's $130 less I can use to keep myself healthy or safe by not being able to buy healthier food for a month or 2, not to be able to start a gym membership, not to be able to buy exercise equipment, not to be able to perform auto-maintenance to keep the car running running safely, not to be able to use on gas money so I might have to use a more dangerous transportation method like riding a bike, not to be able to buy medicine for an illness for myself or family member, not to be able to afford safety equipment for a child's sports activity, etc. These fees hit low income citizens the hardest


That's why we have to make people understand that it isn't about keeping you safe.

It's about control and larceny. The fleecing continues everyday.

[libertybrewcity]

just don't start filming them with a camcorder every time they come into the store and you should be fine.

[PreDeadMan]

I work at a gas station full time while I go to school. Yesterday I noticed that the cops were pulling people over left and right just on the stretch of main street that our store is located on, especially as they drove out of our store. I was curious, as it was the middle of the day so I doubted if there was that many drunk drivers.

Our store is a local hangout for the police, we give them free soft drinks and coffee and we're right next door to their station. In turn, they provide our store extra security and I've even been pulled over once for speeding and was dismissed because the officer knew me and just gave me a warning.

A cop came in and I asked him what was going on that had them pulling over so many people. He said, with a hint of proudness I might add, that they were pulling people for not wearing a seatbelt and issuing them a fine under 'Click it or a Ticket'. I asked how much the fine was, and he told me that it was 130$ and he had already pulled over 30 people over that day so far.

This just got me bothered, so after he left I made it a point to tell every customer that came into the store to make sure they put on their seatbelt because the cops are pulling people over for that.

Later that day another police officer came in and I decided to make a sarcastic remark of "So, I see you've been busy today". He nodded and talked on how they've been pulling people over.

I asked him politely what he thought about fining people 130$ for that. He then came on the offensive and asked "Don't tell me you're one of those crazy people who don't believe in wearing seatbelts." As I do wear a seatbelt, all the time, I informed him of this and told him simply that "Somebody that is not wearing a seatbelt is not a danger to anyone else, so how is it your business if they wear a seatbelt or not?"

He took a moment to digest this while he sipped on his free soda. He then got in that lovely stance that police always get into. You know the one where they rest their hands on their gun and tilt their head to the side and try to look down at you while they puff out their chest. He then told me that my personal safety is his top priority and job. I then pointed out "You know, there are some who would argue that soda is not safe to drink".

His face just soured then and he told me "I just enforce the laws, I don't write them". I then told him, admittedly shakily, that "It's your job to question those who pass the laws." He just shook his head and left. I know I'm going to get shit from my manager for this, but I couldn't just let that slide and do the little ego jerk that everyone else gives to police officers.


you sir are a hero for being brave enough to confront a cop on that matter +1 for liberty to you cheers!

[cubical]

I have gotten a 'click it or ticket' ticket before. I was furious. I asked the police officer if they were going to start outlawing all activities that were at all dangerous. I then backtracked and said I'll take that up with congress.

[Bman]

I really don't mind police in general. I mean they are people just doing what they are told like so many other people. You know the whole forgive them they no not what they do, and let me tell you. With many police officers I've talked to I really don't think there's a lot going on upstairs. When I think of law enforcement a thinker is not what I perceive.

[Kregisen]

My thoughts on this are like what a couple others brought up already...what are everyone's views on this??

If you as a driver do indeed hit someone like fender bender or something, and they don't have their seatbelt on, obviously there will be much more medical damage, maybe even chance of it being fatal.

Should the driver at fault be liable for all the damage when the other driver isn't wearing a seat belt and gets thrown out his window and dies?

I sort of agree with both sides here....that said, tickets for seat belt use is ridiculous, plus, how do they enforce them? It's not exactly easy to see if someone is wearing a seatbelt or not.

[Vessol]

I sort of agree with both sides here....that said, tickets for seat belt use is ridiculous, plus, how do they enforce them? It's not exactly easy to see if someone is wearing a seatbelt or not.

One cop sits in the middle of the highway and watches for drivers who are not wearing their seatbelts. He then radios to his fellows cops a few miles down the road who is not wearing a seatbelt and describes their car.

Or at least, that is how it was described to me by a police officer.

[Anti Federalist]

If you as a driver do indeed hit someone like fender bender or something, and they don't have their seatbelt on, obviously there will be much more medical damage, maybe even chance of it being fatal.

A dangerous precedent to set.

Then full time lifestyle monitoring is acceptable, since, now socialized, health care presumes that everything you do that is not "healthy" has an unacceptable cost to everybody else.

[BlackTerrel]

Good for you. You did the right thing.

As far as the job - if management really has issues with what you did you can always go work somewhere else.

[Vessol]

Good for you. You did the right thing.

As far as the job - if management really has issues with what you did you can always go work somewhere else.

Oh I know. Yay free market! However, for the most part I like my job. I get regular raises, the hours I need(sometimes more), and I'm not treated like shit(which is my experience at many other jobs).

To go back previously to something that Melissa said. Part of the reason cops do get free drinks to try to deter any kind of robbery attempts, we haven't been robbed apparently in over a decade. However, she also is married to a part-time deputy/fire marshal I believe, so she knows a lot of the police department as personal friends. That's where my worry stems from, however the same officer came in today at work and seemed to hold no ill will towards me.

[low preference guy]

What you did is awesome.

I'm sorry to say, but if management finds out, I think you'll at least get a talk.

[pcosmar]

To go back previously to something that Melissa said. Part of the reason cops do get free drinks to try to deter any kind of robbery attempts, we haven't been robbed apparently in over a decade. However, she also is married to a part-time deputy/fire marshal I believe, so she knows a lot of the police department as personal friends. That's where my worry stems from, however the same officer came in today at work and seemed to hold no ill will towards me.
I worked as a cook at a truck stop years ago. the owner was a retired cop that didn't walk around with less than three guns on him at any time.
We were never robbed.

The gas station next door had been robbed several times, till the owner blew a robber through the front glass with a shotgun.
They didn't get robbed any more.
Arm the clerks.

[Vessol]

I worked as a cook at a truck stop years ago. the owner was a retired cop that didn't walk around with less than three guns on him at any time.
We were never robbed.

The gas station next door had been robbed several times, till the owner blew a robber through the front glass with a shotgun.
They didn't get robbed any more.
Arm the clerks.

I've suggested it multiple times. So much so that my manager once made a joke that I probably have enough guns in my house to arm a small army(God I wish this was true). However, it's out of our control as we are not locally owned, but rather a national company and it's against our policy.


Vessol, I wish I knew you were in NC, I just passed through there last week.

Send me a PM if you're ever in Eastern NC near New Bern or Greenville. We'll grab some drinks or something on me. Same goes for any RPF member.

[Anti Federalist]

Send me a PM if you're ever in Eastern NC near New Bern or Greenville. We'll grab some drinks or something on me. Same goes for any RPF member.

Son of a bitch, I just spent three days in Swansboro last week.

My host made contact with Gunny to try and get him out that way, but that was too much of hike I think.

Dammit, I wish I had known that...I just missed Pericles in Dallas the week before too.

[Kregisen]

A dangerous precedent to set.

Then full time lifestyle monitoring is acceptable, since, now socialized, health care presumes that everything you do that is not "healthy" has an unacceptable cost to everybody else.

So are you saying you think a driver who rear-ends you is liable for your death if you flew out of your window with no seat belt?

I'm not saying I disagree, just that it's very tricky.

[Vessol]

Son of a bitch, I just spent three days in Swansboro last week.

My host made contact with Gunny to try and get him out that way, but that was too much of hike I think.

Dammit, I wish I had known that...I just missed Pericles in Dallas the week before too.

Damn, haha. Were you there for the storm front that hit last Saturday? I know that all up along the eastern board it got slammed, including the Jacksonville area. Five marines were killed when a tornado touched down at Camp Lajeune and tore it up bad, though dont think they have said anything public about it yet.

[Anti Federalist]

So are you saying you think a driver who rear-ends you is liable for your death if you flew out of your window with no seat belt?

I'm not saying I disagree, just that it's very tricky.

Well sure.

Regardless of the severity of my injuries, there is no doubt that there would have been no injury, if not for the fault of driver hitting me.

Now, if it was me causing the accident, that's another story.

[Anti Federalist]

Damn, haha. Were you there for the storm front that hit last Saturday? I know that all up along the eastern board it got slammed, including the Jacksonville area. Five marines were killed when a tornado touched down at Camp Lajeune and tore it up bad, though dont think they have said anything public about it yet.

Yup, sure was, and I had not heard about the Marines. What a set of storms, shit.

I was staying with friends, (net friends that we had known for years but were meeting for the first time) actually living closer to Cape Carteret then anything else, about five miles down 58 from the south Emerald Isle bridge.

Thankfully, by the time they got right near the coast, I think they lost quite a bit of their convection and started to fizzle out. We got a bunch of rain and wind and in the cloud lightening, but it only lasted for about 20-30 minutes or so.

[MelissaWV]

I worked as a cook at a truck stop years ago. the owner was a retired cop that didn't walk around with less than three guns on him at any time.
We were never robbed.

The gas station next door had been robbed several times, till the owner blew a robber through the front glass with a shotgun.
They didn't get robbed any more.
Arm the clerks.

Oh I'm not saying the police would DO anything. I think of them like that sign in the yard that says you have an alarm, or something that says "Beware of Dog." If there are several houses in a row, a criminal might decide yours isn't worth your while, even if alarms are stupid and your dog is mute and toothless.

Arming the clerks is great but if you can't advertise that fact it's only useful after the robbery's begun.