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Brett85
04-23-2011, 02:45 PM
http://harrisforpresident.com/?page_id=51

RJ Harris is running for the Libertarian Party nomination for President, and I thought his views on the abortion issue were interesting. He goes beyond Ron's position on the issue and suggests that abortion itself is unconstitutional under both the 5th and 14th amendments. Even pro life libertarians generally believe that abortion should be a state issue rather than a federal issue, so I was just wondering what people here thought about this.

"The due process and equal protection provided by the fifth and fourteenth amendments to all persons, including unborn persons, makes abortion unconstitutional. What is in order then is not an activist court ruling, but a Constitutional Amendment defining the beginning of personhood. Until such time as this well overdue legislation is passed, I will use the full power of my office to protect the lives of the unborn Citizens of this Republic.

A women killing her innocent child to protect her Liberty is no more right than a slave owner keeping an innocent person in bondage to protect his Property. Killing another person for any reason other than self Defense or the common Defense is WRONG. The Congresses of the 19th Century had a Supreme Court ruling to hide behind which stripped the personhood of the Republic’s Black Citizens so as to keep them in bondage. The Supreme Court rulings we have today allowing the murder of the Republic’s Unborn Citizens are no better and neither is our Congress for hiding behind them.

Without Life there is neither Liberty nor Property."

nate895
04-23-2011, 02:59 PM
I actually think that it's in the original text of the Constitution. Any state that does not protect the right to life from conception is guilty of not having a republican form of government. I am not sure as to the practicality of enforcing that provision, considering we have not had a republican form of government for over a century now. That's one of a multitude of reasons why I think it might be better for the U.S. to simply dissolve and form smaller confederacies. I am not entirely sure if I'm willing to confederate with states that allow the murder of the unborn. I might ally with them for temporary purposes, such as the repelling of an invasion, but not confederate with them. I'd be too worried that they'd facilitate "legal" abortions of children from my state. That's one problem with the outlawing of abortion in Northern Ireland (and the Republic until the '80s); it's just too easy to fly over to Great Britain and obtain a legal abortion.

Given this position, it might be better for Harris to run on a CP label, or fuse the two.

Brett85
04-23-2011, 03:18 PM
Given this position, it might be better for Harris to run on a CP label, or fuse the two.

The CP might not accept him since he has very libertarian views on the immigration issue.

nate895
04-23-2011, 03:23 PM
The CP might not accept him since he has very libertarian views on the immigration issue.

And the LP might not accept him because of his "radical" views on abortion. It's really a catch-22.

eduardo89
04-23-2011, 03:40 PM
I completely agree with him and that's why I also believe abortion is a federal issue, as we all, born or unborn humans, have a constitutional right to life.

South Park Fan
04-23-2011, 03:45 PM
So, by Harris's logic, murder and rape would also have to be federal crimes.

nate895
04-23-2011, 03:49 PM
So, by Harris's logic, murder and rape would also have to be federal crimes.

There is a difference between federal issues and federal crimes. For instance, in these cases, it would be unlawful for a state in the Union to allow murder and rape without prosecution because it would violate a multitude of constitutional provisions. However, it is still a state crime. That is basically what Harris is arguing here. He isn't saying that abortion should be prosecuted at a federal level, he is saying that any state in the Union would be violating constitutional provisions by legalizing abortion.

Brett85
04-23-2011, 03:55 PM
There is a difference between federal issues and federal crimes. For instance, in these cases, it would be unlawful for a state in the Union to allow murder and rape without prosecution because it would violate a multitude of constitutional provisions. However, it is still a state crime. That is basically what Harris is arguing here. He isn't saying that abortion should be prosecuted at a federal level, he is saying that any state in the Union would be violating constitutional provisions by legalizing abortion.

Exactly.

juleswin
04-23-2011, 04:02 PM
I agree with Harris on the fact that if you or anybody believes that an/a embyro/fetus is a person then it should not be left to the states. I on the other hand do not consider then as person that why am pro choice

Also if you follow Harris's login then a woman who mistakenly aborts her child should be fully investigated and charged with some degree of murder.

eduardo89
04-23-2011, 04:03 PM
There is a difference between federal issues and federal crimes. For instance, in these cases, it would be unlawful for a state in the Union to allow murder and rape without prosecution because it would violate a multitude of constitutional provisions. However, it is still a state crime. That is basically what Harris is arguing here. He isn't saying that abortion should be prosecuted at a federal level, he is saying that any state in the Union would be violating constitutional provisions by legalizing abortion.

I've said this before but it's always been criticized on this forum for infringing on states rights...but that logic also says the 2nd amendment infringes on states rights by forcing them to allow citizens to bear arms.

Brett85
04-23-2011, 04:08 PM
Also if you follow Harris's login then a woman who mistakenly aborts her child should be fully investigated and charged with some degree of murder.

Abortion was mostly illegal prior to the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, and the situation that you described never happened then. If it didn't happen back then, I don't know why it would happen if abortion were once again made illegal.

nate895
04-23-2011, 04:11 PM
I've said this before but it's always been criticized on this forum for infringing on states rights...but that logic also says the 2nd amendment infringes on states rights by forcing them to allow citizens to bear arms.

Because of the fact we are a confederacy, which means we can freely cross the borders in between states and freely exchange our citizenship between the states, we are going to have to have the same basic laws in every state. We cannot allow absolute state authority over any and every law. The laws need to be mostly uniform. They don't have to be perfectly uniform, but they need to be uniform enough that we'd freely extradite people for crimes committed in other states. If you are unhappy with the legal system in this confederacy, secede. The primary difference between federations and confederations is not the practical power of the central government, it's the fact that the states are absolutely free to leave a confederacy.

nate895
04-23-2011, 04:12 PM
Also if you follow Harris's login then a woman who mistakenly aborts her child should be fully investigated and charged with some degree of murder.

At the very worst, I suppose she could be charged with manslaughter. I don't what it means to "mistakenly abort" a child though.

juleswin
04-23-2011, 04:26 PM
Abortion was mostly illegal prior to the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, and the situation that you described never happened then. If it didn't happen back then, I don't know why it would happen if abortion were once again made illegal.

So the unborn are going to be 2nd hand citizen types whose deaths warrants no investigation? With the number of lawyer and over zealous AGs we have right now, I have a feeling that it would be nothing like what we saw pre 1973. Unborn babies should not be forced to be born to mother who want nothing more than to see then die, at least lets give them a 2nd chance with a better mother by not banning abortion.

nate895
04-23-2011, 04:31 PM
So the unborn are going to be 2nd hand citizen types whose deaths warrants no investigation? With the number of lawyer and over zealous AGs we have right now, I have a feeling that it would be nothing like what we saw pre 1973. Unborn babies should not be forced to be born to mother who want nothing more than to see then die, at least lets give them a 2nd chance with a better mother by not banning abortion.

How about we give them to orphanages instead of killing them?

It is better to live than to die. This where we come from two different value systems: Sanctity-of-life vs. "Quality-of-life." That is why I don't vote for pro-choice candidates, plain-and-simple. We have a different value system on a fundamental level. I believe human life is worthy of protection from conception through natural death simply because it is human life. On the other hand, we have system that thinks life's only worth it if it's "quality," whatever that is.

Brett85
04-23-2011, 04:31 PM
at least lets give them a 2nd chance with a better mother by not banning abortion.

Huh?

juleswin
04-23-2011, 04:56 PM
Huh?

I believe aborted babies go back to the line and are given aother shot at life. I dont have any evidence or in fact get the idea from any where, its just something i came up with and believe it just as strongly as you believe fetuses are person. But lets not argue over this because even if Harris or any other liberty loving pro life person wins, I doubt they would restrict me or someone in my family from seeking abortion in Canada or Mexico if the need presents itself

Sola_Fide
04-23-2011, 04:59 PM
I believe aborted babies go back to the line and are given aother shot at life. I dont have any evidence or in fact get the idea from any where, its just something i came up with and believe it just as strongly as you believe fetuses are person. But lets not argue over this because even if Harris or any other liberty loving pro life person wins, I doubt they would restrict me or someone in my family from seeking abortion in Canada or Mexico if the need presents itself


Murder is justified because you believe in reincarnation?

Strange....

nate895
04-23-2011, 05:01 PM
I believe aborted babies go back to the line and are given aother shot at life. I dont have any evidence or in fact get the idea from any where, its just something i came up with and believe it just as strongly as you believe fetuses are person. But lets not argue over this because even if Harris or any other liberty loving pro life person wins, I doubt they would restrict me or someone in my family from seeking abortion in Canada or Mexico if the need presents itself

Wait, your speculation is equivalent to the simple facts of biology? The fact is that a fetus is a separate being from the mother. It has its own identity. Your mere opinion has zero evidential weight.

Sola_Fide
04-23-2011, 05:02 PM
http://harrisforpresident.com/?page_id=51

RJ Harris is running for the Libertarian Party nomination for President, and I thought his views on the abortion issue were interesting. He goes beyond Ron's position on the issue and suggests that abortion itself is unconstitutional under both the 5th and 14th amendments. Even pro life libertarians generally believe that abortion should be a state issue rather than a federal issue, so I was just wondering what people here thought about this.

"The due process and equal protection provided by the fifth and fourteenth amendments to all persons, including unborn persons, makes abortion unconstitutional. What is in order then is not an activist court ruling, but a Constitutional Amendment defining the beginning of personhood. Until such time as this well overdue legislation is passed, I will use the full power of my office to protect the lives of the unborn Citizens of this Republic.

A women killing her innocent child to protect her Liberty is no more right than a slave owner keeping an innocent person in bondage to protect his Property. Killing another person for any reason other than self Defense or the common Defense is WRONG. The Congresses of the 19th Century had a Supreme Court ruling to hide behind which stripped the personhood of the Republic’s Black Citizens so as to keep them in bondage. The Supreme Court rulings we have today allowing the murder of the Republic’s Unborn Citizens are no better and neither is our Congress for hiding behind them.

Without Life there is neither Liberty nor Property."

Thanks for posting this. I'm going to have to look in to RJ Harris a little more closely now. I have been waiting for an LP candidate to have a consistent position on liberty for the unborn, something I didn't like about Harry Browne or Badnarik.

Sola_Fide
04-23-2011, 05:15 PM
More RJ Harris on abortion:

"Don't believe the lies of the abortion movement."

http://rjharris2010.blogspot.com/2009/04/life-abortion.html

lester1/2jr
04-23-2011, 05:28 PM
hard to see libertarians nominating him.