When Libertarians and Conservatives talk about Big Government or the State and how it mean

[aid632007]

When Libertarians and Conservatives talk about Big Government or the State and how it means less freedom I thought that we the people are the Government or am I confused the Government is made up of people right ?

[kah13176]

When Libertarians and Conservatives talk about Big Government or the State and how it means less freedom I thought that we the people are the Government or am I confused the Government is made up of people right ?

Involuntary taxation is the very essence of government. Taxation is inherently theft because it entails government taking away the fruits of your own labor at the point of a gun (i.e. try not paying taxes, then refusing to go to court, and later jail). So, you are correct, the government is comprised of people just like us. But then again - so is the Mafia.

The state means less freedom simply because it's a democratically elected gang that enforces arbitrary laws against victimless crimes, robs the people of their own property, etc. Yes, some benefit - the recipients of the stolen money/the benefits that money buys. But MANY, usually the middle class, get screwed over royally.

I suppose the best place to begin is to define what "freedom" is. Quite simply, every form of freedom imaginable (life, liberty, speech, press, religion) ALL depend exclusively on the rights to private property. Government cannot exist without some sort of infringement upon property rights, taxation being the most obvious example. Therefore, the larger government is, the more taxation that is necessary to support it, meaning the less free the people are.

Any democratically elected authoritarian bureaucracy is authoritarian nonetheless.




In reading my response over, I realized how poor of a job I do at explaining things. If you have questions, please ask.
If you're relatively new to libertarian ideas, I would HIGHLY recommend these books:

Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul
For a New Liberty, by Murray Rothbard

They do an excellent job at giving the reader a general knowlege of libertarianism to get him started, especially the first one. The first one can be read in maybe 2 days, it's very short. The second will take a little longer. However, these are the best places for anyone to start even if they know nothing about liberty beforehand.

[heavenlyboy34]

When Libertarians and Conservatives talk about Big Government or the State and how it means less freedom I thought that we the people are the Government or am I confused the Government is made up of people right ?

Nope. The government is of, by, and for the elites. (especially at the Federal level) Their public spectacles are only eyewash for the masses so they can collude on their various scams behind closed doors while the booboisie argue amongst themselves.

ETA: Kah's response^^ is very good too. :cool:

[torchbearer]

Nope. The government is of, by, and for the elites. (especially at the Federal level) Their public spectacles are only eyewash for the masses so they can collude on their various scams behind closed doors while the booboisie argue amongst themselves.

ETA: Kah's response^^ is very good too. :cool:

the federal government is a racket. short and simple.
it offers no protection of rights, just threat of force.

[heavenlyboy34]

the federal government is a racket. short and simple.
it offers no protection of rights, just threat of force.

Agreed. :cool: I'd +rep you, but I'm out of ammo right now. :(

[torchbearer]

Agreed. :cool: I'd +rep you, but I'm out of ammo right now. :(

Lately i've been feeling like those really old libertarians who are at the point they hope the whole house of cards comes crashing down.
People in this area know i'm politically involved and often engage me in political discussion, especially presidential politics.
I've gotten to the point that the only thing i tell people when they come at me with their stupidity is "i am very confident you will get the government you deserve"
i'm that fucking jaded.

you'd think after all the shit we went through in the last decade or two, people would be more aware. it seems like the furthest they can remember is about an hour ago.

[akforme]

Government is the legal ability to use force that's up for sale to the highest bidder.

Freedom is the opposite of force and that's how the government accomplishes everything because they have a monopoly on it.