Waco siege ended 18 years ago today

[tropicangela]

http://youtu.be/PCblw0_ls7M

[Anti Federalist]

Government murder and incineration of 80 plus men women and children.

All because ATF had to pull a high profile stunt to maintain their funding. (And show all of us mundanes who the boss really was.)

Watch FLIR footage of fed agents blasting people with automatic weapons fire as they to escape from the church building.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLXhmPuBmd4

[tropicangela]

Why won't my tube embed with the video code?

[daviddee]

...

[tropicangela]

Judy Shneider was shot while nursing her baby -- through the chest," said Dr. James Tabor, professor of religious studies, Univ. of N. Carolina when he spoke before Congress.

Davidians claim Jaydean Wendell, 34, had just finished nursing her baby and was asleep when a bullet shot from a helicopter came through the ceiling and penetrated her skull, killing her.

[fisharmor]

None of this matters, as long as cops keep shooting dogs.

[TheNcredibleEgg]

I hate to admit it : but I cheered for the state that day.

[doodle]

Obama Warns Violence by Libya Government 'Unacceptable'
Mar 7, 2011 ... Obama Warns Violence by Libya Government 'Unacceptable' ...
www.voanews.com/.../Obama-Warns-Violence-by-Libya-Government-Unacceptable-

[awake]

I bet the whole lot of goons that perpetrated this have been notably promoted. Did any one loose their job on this?

To save the children we must kill the children.

[fisharmor]

I bet the whole lot of goons that perpetrated this have been notably promoted. Did any one loose their job on this?

There was an attempt to bring Lon Horiuchi up on manslaughter, though it was over Ruby Ridge, not Waco... and it was dismissed.
That was the last time I heard of a jackboot getting anything more than paid vacation for killing a prole.

[wizardwatson]

16 years ago this day was OKC bombing.

[Agorism]

Didn't seem that long ago. Wow

[Pericles]

Lesson: When your opponents run out of ammunition, they are to be captured and not be allowed to escape to fight again another day.

[doodle]

16 years ago this day was OKC bombing.

Was it on same day? That's a remerkable coincidence.

It reminded me of the this claim I came across last week by an Indian woman regarding Sept 11, 1922 through a news story from Indian newspaper on miseast violence discussion in FP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90TX7gE2iwQ

[wizardwatson]

Was it on same day? That's a remerkable coincidence.

Don't think it was coincidence. McVeigh claimed to do the bombing as revenge against gov for Ruby Ridge and Waco. I think he purposely picked that date, or that's what I remember reading anyway.

[Pericles]

Was it on same day? That's a remerkable coincidence.

It reminded me of the this claim I came across last week by an Indian woman regarding Sept 11, 1922 through a news story from Indian newspaper on miseast violence discussion in FP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90TX7gE2iwQ

Sorry to continue the hijack, but September 11, 1683 is the date of the battle of Vienna in which the Christian alliance broke the siege of Vienna, and started to force the Ottoman Empire out of continental Europe, which along with the defeat of the Moors in Spain, reversed the Islamic conquest of southern Europe.

[doodle]

It was just a BTW mention of similar coincidence claim, I should start a seperate thread in FP on that on second thought.


Don't think it was coincidence. McVeigh claimed to do the bombing as revenge against gov for Ruby Ridge and Waco. I think he purposely picked that date, or that's what I remember reading anyway.

I recall I had read something about it being blowback for waco later on, but don't think this date was highlighted in MSM TV reporting at the time when I used to get news from MSM TV pros.

[hamilton1049]

Please! Waco, OkC? How about PATRIOTS DAY!!! Lexington Green? Concorde? The Shot heard round the world? Paul Revere's ride? Any of this sound familiar? We should be dancing in the streets, as a well armed and regulated Militia and rub their noses in it.

[Pericles]

Please! Waco, OkC? How about PATRIOTS DAY!!! Lexington Green? Concorde? The Shot heard round the world? Paul Revere's ride? Any of this sound familiar? We should be dancing in the streets, as a well armed and regulated Militia and rub their noses in it.
+1775

[DXDoug]

I hate to admit it : but I cheered for the state that day.

Its ok we all were perhaps cheering for them or something evil before we ever knew ron paul, or just general information.

its not your fault

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Waco: The Rules of Engagement (wonderfully done documentary)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIUec0mYEMU


Waco: A New Revelation (same link in the OP)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCblw0_ls7M&feature=youtu.be

[Bruno]

I feel old

[mrsat_98]

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=578&q=Peter+Kawaja+murrah+building&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&fp=62a0ac3ad8be019c

[Anti Federalist]

None of this matters, as long as cops keep shooting dogs.

It's not that we somehow dismiss the people, and only weep and gnash teeth over dogs.

There are reasons for the dog stories:

They are getting more and more common, indicating a nationwide shift in "policy" to just blast the dogs first and ask questions later. Waco was probably the first occurrence of that. Government swore up and down that it did not fire first at the church when the whole thing started 56 days earlier. That is a lie. The ATF opened fire on livestock and dogs in the front of the church property before ever confronting anybody at the front door.

It makes the comparison that people are not much different than dogs in the eyes of the state enforcers.

Sadly, many people do place more value on a dog's life than a fellow human being's. Remember the Marine/Puppy tossing outrage? Never mind that Marine unit probably spent the prior week lighting up Iraqi families, no, tossing the puppy got them in hot water.

[Anti Federalist]

I hate to admit it : but I cheered for the state that day.

Serious question: Why?

[Indy Vidual]

The Moral Promise of Freedom by Rep. Ron Paul

The Free Market
March 1994

The moral promise of a free society involves the boundaries of private property. The promise is this: property boundaries cannot be legally invaded or trampled upon. When property is protected, people can keep the fruits of their labor and investment, and not have them plundered by others. People can own land, for example, and this land can be used as the owners see fit. Private property allows wide latitude for experimentation. Property holders can form communities with internal cultures. Just as business can conduct its own affairs, people can separate themselves out entirely from the rest of society if they so desire. They need only respect the rights of others to do the same.

It's the nature of private property and a free society that it allows room for diversity of work, modes of production, and ways of life. That's how Mr. Jefferson wanted it, and that's what the authors of the Constitution promised. In the sixties, for example, hippie communes sprang up all over the country. The participants were eccentric and the utopias didn't work, but the attempts were tolerated by society and state.

Today the promise of private property is routinely violated by both private criminals and government. The attack on property began subtly at first, but today it has become explicit, sometimes brutal, and sometimes even deadly.

The community of faith that once lived at Mount Carmel in Waco, Texas, believed the promise of free society. They chose to separate themselves from society, as so many others have done in our nation's history. This was not allowed in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, or Maoist China. That's one reason we regard these regimes as tyrannical.

Yet in its dealings with the Waco religious dissenters, the central government revealed that it has become intractably opposed to any individual or group that represents a challenge to its singular authority. To counter this challenge, the central government resorted to tactics that resulted in the death of 86 men, women, and children. As for the survivors, the government has put them on trial.

This sort of brutality is inevitable in a system of absolute and centralized power. A government that invades private business by demanding confiscatory taxes, imposes unbearable regulations, and rules over business culture through pervasive labor controls, builds an appetite for even more power. As the power builds, so does the extent of corruption at the top and the disinformation that covers up the truth about its tyranny.

So it was in Waco, where the tragic events combined all the elements of a government out of control. Most of what the public thinks it knows about David Koresh, the group's spiritual leader, is false. But as with war, military invasions, and other acts of state – as J.S. Griffey of the University of Houston argued in an outstanding article in the Southern Partisan – the first impression is the one that lasts.

For example, most people probably believe that the government attacked the Waco Christians because they were "stockpiling" weapons. Were they? Texans own 60 million firearms, about 3.5 per person. At Mt. Carmel there were two firearms per person, most of them locked away. The rest of their protection consisted of hay bales and plywood.

The stockpiling accusation was an act of projection, for the real stockpiler was the government. In the attack on Waco, agents used MI 13 personnel carriers, M2AO Bradley fighting vehicles, Sikorsky Blackhawks, Apache and UH-1 Bell helicopters, Abrams MI tanks, 7.62mm machine guns, FBI SWAT snipers, two varieties of hand grenades, and the FBI's psychological warfare experts. The government even fired canisters of CS gas, banned in warfare by international treaty, through windows and walls.

The BATF got their helicopters from the Texas National Guard. Under the law, the military cannot be involved in domestic law enforcement. But a special provision of the U.S. Code allows the government to use military equipment in drug cases. So the BATF told Texas governor Ann Richards that they suspected Mount Carmel had a drug lab. This canard was not in the BATF's search warrants and it hasn't been mentioned since.

Did Koresh want a confrontation with law enforcement agents? All evidence indicates he desired good relations with the law. In 1992, Koresh had actually invited the BATF into the compound so agents could see for themselves. But the government reneged. "Why do you all have to be so big all the time?" Koresh asked the FBI during the month-long standoff. "Why didn't you just talk to me?"

Did the community have a death wish? Twenty minutes before the fire began, the community hung out a sign reading: "We want our phones fixed." (The government had cut them off, along with the electricity.) That's not a message sent by people hungering for the Apocalypse. None of the survivors report discussion of suicide plans.

There is still no evidence that the religious people set the fire that destroyed their building. The place was a firetrap, entirely made of wood and sealed shut. Since the government had cut off their electricity, lanterns were their only light. The government shot out the windows, so sheets were their only protection from the weather. The tanks that battered the building probably set the fire, either accidentally or deliberately.

The initial raid was on February 28, 1993. Several people say the government shot through the roof from a helicopter, but we cannot know for sure. The physical evidence is reduced to ashes, and the government plowed the land over a week after the home went up in flames.

As the standoff continued, the women and children were upstairs because they were afraid of the government. The tanks destroyed the stairways that would have allowed them to escape the fire. The underground shelter was destroyed as well.

After the fire, the FBI made three claims it later retracted. First, the Bureau said that two agents saw community members lighting a fire. Second, the Bureau said one agent saw someone dressed in black "cupping his hands," as if to light a fire. Third, the Bureau said some members trying to flee the fire were shot by others. All assertions were false and were subsequently dropped.

The Justice Department contributed its share of lies. Spokesmen said an "independent arson investigator" concluded that members of the community started the fire. But the "independent investigator" turned out to be Paul Gray, an agent for the BATF from 1962 to 1990 whose wife stills works for the agency as secretary to the man who planned the raid. They apparently could not be sure a genuinely independent investigator would come to the preordained conclusion.

The stated purpose of the raid was to save children from abuse. Yet Janet Reno lied about that too. The information she used was already discredited, and she later admitted it. The real child abuse was committed by the government: to harass community members, the FBI turned on massive floodlights at night and played recordings of Buddhist chants, dental drills, and screaming, slaughtered rabbits. Reno herself ordered the house to be saturated with CS gas, knowing that the community's gas masks couldn't fit the children.

In ways that have become typical, the media and government worked together in this disaster. One day before the raid, the Waco Tribune-Herald started a series on "The Sinful Messiah." On the morning of February 28, 1993, before BATF arrived at Mt. Carmel, at least 11 reporters were on the scene already. After the religious community was torched, the entire media participated in the beatification of Janet Reno for her actions in Waco.

The consequences for the victims were public humiliation and death. There were zero consequences for the perpetrators, unless we consider the three agents who were suspended with pay and perks, which is no punishment at all.

The methods and strategies of the government's assault against Waco had been used for years by the military, but against foreign governments and their leaders, not against the domestic citizenry. The most familiar case of foreign intrigue was the government's attack on Manuel Noriega, in which it used similar tactics (blaring music, planting evidence, spreading disinformation), and therein lies the connection between foreign policy and domestic. Anything a government allows itself to do to foreign countries will eventually be done at home. That's one reason George Washington warned us against foreign entanglements.

We may never know the full truth about Waco or the extent of government perfidy, but we can draw lessons from the experience. This particular event was a fiasco, but it also tells something about what our government has become: "the organizer-in-chief of society," as Bertrand de Jouvenel said, which is "making its monopoly of this role ever more complete." It is a parasite and a monster that acts to protect itself. Mises was right: government's nature is coercive. It is "beating, killing, hanging." Coercion is necessary in society to protect the rights of property holders against those who do not respect property. But when government itself become the source of arbitrary violence, we have tyranny. That's why unchecked power should never be invested in a centralized government, even one with a democratic mandate. This power will invariably be exercised at the expense of peaceful social relations.

In its dealings with the community of believers at Mount Carmel, the central government abandoned the moral promise of a free society, and, as all tyrannies eventually do, ignored its own standards of law and ethics. But it paid the price of losing some measure of public confidence, which is already at historic lows. A government that governs by fear alone eventually finds itself unable to govern at all.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/paul1.html

[Bruno]

+ rep ^^^

[Ekrub]

If you haven't seen this Bill Hicks clip, it's a must watch. Saw it first on the Bill Hicks documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVMGc0n_aVU

[oyarde]

There were violations there in those murders that noboby was held accountable for ..

[pcosmar]

There were violations there in those murders that noboby was held accountable for ..

They were promoted. :(
RONALD K. NOBLE (the Enforcer) is now the head of Interpol.

[Acala]

They were promoted. :(
RONALD K. NOBLE (the Enforcer) is now the head of Interpol.

Willingness to slaughter the innocent in broad daylight, on camera, without remorse, is an extremely valuable character trait in some circles. In other words, it was a merit-based promotion.