Libertarians Too Busy Fighting Each Other to Fight the Real Enemy

[FrankRep]

http://users.rcn.com/k.brennan/badnarik.jpg


Michael Badnarik Libertarian Party Convention 2010 Speech


Michael Badnarik gives a big dose of the truth to the Libertarian Party: STOP FIGHTING



Michael Badnarik: If you can't learn to like each other, then at least learn to work together. I've never been associated with an organization as hostile and self-destructive as the Libertarian Party. Most of what passes for conversation at Libertarian events is rumor, gossip, and vicious personal attacks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRBdKMitPIg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmqXS5XSn10

[TNforPaul45]

Here Here! It's time for the Liberty Caucus to unite. The problems we seek to end outweigh the differences that we hold.

[Carehn]

Am not!

[AuH20]

It's like herding cats!

http://propheris.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/herding-cats-185x185.jpg

[heavenlyboy34]

Bah, humbug.
http://cdn.stereogum.com/files/2010/07/Robyn-Dont-Fucking-Tell-Me-What-To-Do-Album-Art.jpg

[FrankRep]

Michael Badnarik:


I've never been associated with an organization as hostile and self-destructive as the Libertarian Party. Most of what passes for conversation at Libertarian events is rumor, gossip, and vicious personal attacks.

[Carehn]

Michael Badnarik:


I've never been associated with an organization as hostile and self-destructive as the Libertarian Party. Most of what passes for conversation at Libertarian events is rumor, gossip, and vicious personal attacks.

I take it you never have been to a Republican meeting. Its not all that different. Republicans just smell better.

[FrankRep]

Obituary for the Libertarian Party (http://www.constitutionpreservation.org/articles/july-2-2010/obituary-libertarian-party)


Michael Badnarik:



...
So here's the bottom line. The Libertarian Party is an endangered species. Unless you dramatically change the way you do things, the Party will soon be extinct. If you REALLY want to save the Party and restore Liberty, I have a few suggestions.

* Establish a dress code. If you want to be a major league player, you've gotta wear the uniform. No T-shirts. No shorts or blue jeans. No flip-flops. Jackets and ties for men, skirts or dress slacks for women. Pretend you're going to the prom.

* Eliminate paper candidates. If you're not going to run to win, then stay at home. Better yet, volunteer for a candidate who is committed to going all the way. We have limited campaign resources, and its stupid to waste money on someone who's not going to do any more than answer a few surveys. Contrary to popular theory, paper candidates do NOT generate credibility for active candidates. People simply assume that ALL Libertarians are paper candidates with no chance of winning.

* If you can't learn to like each other, then at least learn to work together. I've never been associated with an organization as hostile and self-destructive as the Libertarian Party. Most of what passes for conversation at Libertarian events is rumor, gossip, and vicious personal attacks. If you can't say something nice about someone, then don't say anything at all. If you hear someone else spreading rumors, then have the guts to confront them and demand that they stop.

* Elect people to the LNC because you trust them, not because they've been there for years, or because nobody else is dumb enough to want the job. Perhaps you should nominate yourself for the position. You probably consider yourself smarter than the people on the committee, anyway. And if there is anyone on the LNC that you DON'T trust, then form a coalition to have them removed. It only takes one insane pilot to fly a plane into the ground. It only takes a handful of neo-Libertarians to destroy what little is left of the party.

[doodle]

Cubs sharpen their paws to stay alert and fit.. but they should/would unite when they face the real threat :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0-qbUZFRKw

[FrankRep]

Cubs sharpen their paws to stay alert and fit.. but they should/would unite when they face the enemy :)
Libertarians act like everyone is an enemy, including other Libertarians. No one is "Libertarian enough."

Michael Badnarik just giving some tough medicine to the Libertarian Party.

[mczerone]

http://users.rcn.com/k.brennan/badnarik.jpg


Michael Badnarik Libertarian Party Convention 2010 Speech


Michael Badnarik gives a big dose of the truth to the Libertarian Party: STOP FIGHTING



Michael Badnarik: If you can't learn to like each other, then at least learn to work together. I've never been associated with an organization as hostile and self-destructive as the Libertarian Party. Most of what passes for conversation at Libertarian events is rumor, gossip, and vicious personal attacks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRBdKMitPIg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmqXS5XSn10

May 30th, 2010. Almost a year ago. And I know I've seen these posted here before. Here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?248228-Video-Michael-Badnarik-gives-a-big-dose-of-the-truth-to-the-Libertarian-Party!&highlight=Badnarik), here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?247875-Michael-Badnarik-Libertarian-Party-Convention-2010&highlight=Badnarik).

You can't just use this video to filibuster arguments you are in. This is a forum where the small points get argued, sometimes without any single goal in sight. But many, if not most, of us here agree with Badnarik, in that the LP party can't manage itself with a bunch of petulant little gossipers running the show. That's a different sort of in-fighting than agreeing to debate the rights involved with abortion or the constitutionality of non-war military spending.

Maybe if you said anything original when posting these, we'd be able to settle differences

[FrankRep]

May 30th, 2010. Almost a year ago. And I know I've seen these posted here before. Here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?248228-Video-Michael-Badnarik-gives-a-big-dose-of-the-truth-to-the-Libertarian-Party!&highlight=Badnarik), here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?247875-Michael-Badnarik-Libertarian-Party-Convention-2010&highlight=Badnarik).

The video needs to be posted a few more times before Libertarians get the message.

[mczerone]

The video needs to be posted a few more times before Libertarians get the message.

And since you cropped the last paragraphs of my post, I take it YOU DIDN'T GET THE MESSAGE.

[FrankRep]

And since you cropped the last paragraphs of my post, I take it YOU DIDN'T GET THE MESSAGE.

Michael Badnarik's tough medicine for Libertarians is too tough for mczerone.

[raystone]

A libertarian joke ....when two libertarians agree on something, they both think the other one sold out.

[mczerone]

Michael Badnarik's tough medicine for Libertarians is too tough for mczerone.

Again, you're short on arguments, long on accusations. Badnarik was addressing the LP convention, and was admonishing them for in-fighting based on personalities and past associations. He was not saying that policy should not be debated. He was not telling the LP not to argue about which course was the best way to win voters.

And most importantly, he was not addressing RPFs. He was giving the specific organization of the LP a dose of medicine. He was not speaking to libertarians (or Ron Paul Forum members) generally.

Michael Badnarik's tough medicine for Libertarians is fully supported by mczerone, not understood by FrankRep

[low preference guy]

Michael Badnarik's tough medicine for Libertarians is too tough for mczerone.

My suspicion that FrankRep is a dumb computer bot and not a human being seems to be confirmed.

[Agorism]

I'm not too concerned as real voting doesn't happen at the ballot box. All these countries go on a natural path to bloated bureaucracy and national bankruptcy. That's just the natural trajection. Real voting is people moving funds into metals or foreign markets or whatever solution they come up with if needed. Whatever they need to do to avoid being completely hosed.

[doodle]

Libertarians act like everyone is an enemy, including other Libertarians. No one is "Libertarian enough."

Michael Badnarik just giving some tough medicine to the Libertarian Party.

You make a valid point.

But in few cases lately, especially in some neocons branding themselves as Tea Party ( N-wing), TPE etc to get pro big gummit spending/pro police state/pro foreign interventions politicians elected to try and hijack disgust with same using bait n switch, there is some reason to be vigilant. Big tent can happen without abandoning some fundamental principles.

[Sentient Void]

Agreed!

SOLIDARITY, COMRADES!

Lol... 'like herding cats' pretty much nails it.

Hey, libertarians! Stop being so libertarian!

I kid, I kid!

... Or do I?

[heavenlyboy34]

My suspicion that FrankRep is a dumb computer bot and not a human being seems to confirmed.

I knew it!

[FrankRep]

My suspicion that FrankRep is a dumb computer bot and not a human being seems to confirmed.


Michael Badnarik: "... Most of what passes for conversation at Libertarian events is rumor, gossip, and vicious personal attacks."


The "vicious personal attacks" just keep on coming from the Libertarians.

[Agorism]

Come on people. Quit complaining and go vote for Bob Barr!

[heavenlyboy34]

I'm not too concerned as real voting doesn't happen at the ballot box. All these countries go on a natural path to bloated bureaucracy and national bankruptcy. That's just the natural trajection. Real voting is people moving funds into metals or foreign markets or whatever solution they come up with if needed. Whatever they need to do to avoid being completely hosed.

This!! ^^ +a zillion

[BuddyRey]

Frank, please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you consider yourself a conservative instead of a libertarian? If you're a conservative, why do you even care what libertarians do, or what level of purity we demand of those who claim to represent us? If we settle for nothing less than ideological consistency from the leaders of the movement and never really get anywhere with our relatively radical agenda (inside electoral politics, anyway), all the better for conservatives, right? Competition in the marketplace of ideas is a good thing, isn't it?

[heavenlyboy34]

Come on people. Quit complaining and go vote for Bob Barr!

lolz! :D

[FrankRep]

Frank, please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you consider yourself a conservative instead of a libertarian? If you're a conservative, why do you even care what libertarians do, or what level of purity we demand of those who claim to represent us? If we settle for nothing less than ideological consistency from the leaders of the movement and never really get anywhere with our relatively radical agenda (inside electoral politics, anyway), all the better for conservatives, right? Competition in the marketplace of ideas is a good thing, isn't it?

I'm keep promoting an alliance (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?286967-Constitution-Party-Libertarian-Party-Tea-Party-Alliance-TRUE-Third-Party-Initiative) between the Constitutionalists and the Libertarians to create a Third Party that will have a better chance of winning elections. I'm willing to work with the Libertarians to accomplish common goals.

Right now the Libertarians are losing the Competition, FYI.

[heavenlyboy34]

I'm keep promoting an alliance (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?286967-Constitution-Party-Libertarian-Party-Tea-Party-Alliance-TRUE-Third-Party-Initiative) between the Constitutionalists and the Libertarians to create a Third Party that will have a better chance of winning elections. I'm willing to work with the Libertarians to accomplish common goals.

Right now the Libertarians are losing the Competition, FYI.

How many Constitution Party members have won elections recently? The LP has won 161 (http://www.lp.org/candidates/elected-officials). Chuck Baldwin only made a single digit of the percent of votes in the national election, even with RP's promotion.

[FrankRep]

How many Constitution Party members have won elections? The LP has won 161 (http://www.lp.org/candidates/elected-officials).

How many elections can they win if they ... worked together ... ?

[heavenlyboy34]

How many elections can they win if they ... worked together ... ?

That's not what I asked you. ;) Try again, please.

[FrankRep]

That's not what I asked you. ;) Try again, please.

I don't know how many Constitution Party members are elected, but I do know that Ron Paul endorsed Chuck Baldwin of the Constitution Party.


How many elections can they win if they ... worked together ... ?

[AGRP]

He's half-way correct. Every group has infights for selfish reasons. It's natural.

It's vital that Libertarians (honest people) must unite/educate because they're facing a two party system of crooks and liars. Its' an unfair playing field.

[torchbearer]

get 4 libertarians in a room together and they will have 5 different opinions.

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't know how many Constitution Party members are elected, but I do know that Ron Paul endorsed Chuck Baldwin of the Constitution Party.


How many elections can they win if they ... worked together ... ?

I imagine 2-3% of the offices they run for instead of the usual 1-2%.

[TheTyke]

I approve this message!!

In KY, we are seeing this before our eyes.... Phil Moffett (http://www.philmoffett.com) is a serious states rights candidate running against the most anti-liberty Establishment candidate in KY. Yet the coalition that supported Rand is either A) Bashing Moffett on the forums, dampening enthusiasm from the national support we'd need to win - just because they don't like his campaign manager, or B) Bashing Rand for "selling out the Tea Party" by not endorsing Moffett (despite his fantastic job in the Senate.)

Neither of those aid any logical goal, and are merely destructive emotional responses. Ron & Rand can't win this fight on their own.. we need to find a way to elect a lot more and quickly. Perhaps even learn not to rely too heavily on the liberty movement (didn't Amash mostly get elected with his own network?)

I tell ya... sometimes... politics are just so frustrating. But Ron didn't give up after all those years, so neither will I.

[BlackTerrel]

I take it you never have been to a Republican meeting. Its not all that different. Republicans just smell better.

Do Republicans smell good or Libertarians bad? Or some combination of the two?

[TheDriver]

Ron & Rand can't win this fight on their own..

Imo, if Ron or Rand truly cared about "changing" things, they'd ditch the GOP. Even if they lost their elections, the scars they would leave would help the 3rd party alternative ten-fold. And, yes I understand Ron tried back in the 80s as a libertarian. However, I think being an "independent" is the way to go. What are you independent of? The two parties!

[sailingaway]

Imo, if Ron or Rand truly cared about "changing" things, they'd ditch the GOP. Even if they lost their elections, the scars they would leave would help the 3rd party alternative ten-fold. And, yes I understand Ron tried back in the 80s as a libertarian. However, I think being an "independent" is the way to go. What are you independent of? The two parties!

I think Rand as a Senator and Ron in the House with his subcommittee are changing things more than Perot did, for example, and that was back when third party candidates could get into the presidential debates, as they can't now that the league of woman voters no longer manages them.

[FrankRep]

Imo, if Ron or Rand truly cared about "changing" things, they'd ditch the GOP. Even if they lost their elections, the scars they would leave would help the 3rd party alternative ten-fold. And, yes I understand Ron tried back in the 80s as a libertarian. However, I think being an "independent" is the way to go. What are you independent of? The two parties!

Ron Paul is a Congressman and Rand Paul is a Senator.

[TheDriver]

Ron Paul is a Congressman and Rand Paul is a Senator.

No shit, Sherlock.

[FrankRep]

No shit, Sherlock.
Ron and Rand Paul ARE changing things. Do you fail to see that?

[Dr.3D]

If I had to judge solely by the content of this thread, I'd have to say it pretty much proves itself.

[Southron]

Unfortunately, not all libertarians want this this thing to work out. If I ever became as cynical as some here, I would swear off politics and never think another thought about it.

[Indy Vidual]

I'm much happier without politics, but the smartest, most interesting people tend to hang out here at RPF's.*
Think happy thoughts! :D

*With some obvious exceptions.

[acptulsa]

If I had to judge solely by the content of this thread, I'd have to say it pretty much proves itself.

If this nation is to be saved, we must win. If we are to win, we will win by pulling our heads out and finding out how we can get the voters' attention. The voters' attention.

You know. The voters. The people who wouldn't spend fifteen pages arguing over privatized roads on a double dare. The ones who want to know how draining the Washington swamp is going to make their lives concretely better now.

[Mach]

If I had to judge solely by the content of this thread, I'd have to say it pretty much proves itself.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/icons/icon14.png You beat me to it.

~

There is a definite self-righteousness in the Libertarian Party and around here, it does have it's positive sides, but after awhile it gets downright dog eat doggish.

"Some days you're the dog; some days you're the hydrant." ::rolleyes:

The Libertarian Party seems to be grounded in logic, principle and freedom, and those are the three things that I'm the least capable of giving up, or even stretching on.... of course.

It seems like once people give in to move forward, as far as what they feel deep inside, they become just another politician.

Don't take any of this the wrong way, I agree with Badnarik.

[acptulsa]

The Libertarian Party seems to be grounded in logic, principle and freedom, and those are the three things that I'm the least capable of giving up, or even stretching on.... of course.

It seems like once people give in to move forward, as far as what they feel deep inside, they become just another politician.

The architect who would build himself a house must become a brickmason and a carpenter. Please tell me, if you will, what the fuck good are our high and mighty principles if we don't run enough good candidates, educate enough voters, and make the tough choices of which battle to give quarter in so we may win another, more important battle outright? Without this, our glorious and oh, so practical principles look good but only on paper.

The rubber is about to meet the road. Either we shove some little part of The Answer down their throats and make them see how good it tastes, or we're the worst sort of useless academia and we fiddle while Rome burns.

[acptulsa]

'All there is to politics is trading. That's why politics is not as good as it was years ago. They don't have as many old-time horse traders in there. These we got are just amateurs. They're crude with their trades. There really is no finesse.'--Will Rogers

These crude, obvious, arrogant bastards have gone too far, they've become too obvious, they've shoved that inbred idiot Dubya out there and followed him up with Cheney's Cuz Obama and no one can tell the difference. The currency is about to turn into toilet paper and they're still knotting the general public up over abortion and whatnot and netting us in the same rope and laughing at us all the while, because we're still pitifully disorganized, constantly bickering libertarians and as easy to thump as ever. And all because all it takes to blow our sales pitch to kingdom come is to get us arguing over how to privatize a sewer system.

The voters are out there scratching their heads and wondering if there's a solution that makes sense, and you can't even get a libertarian to say make the corporate bastards buy fifty state legislatures instead of one convenient national legislatures if they want to run this whole country out of their corporate boardrooms! Because admitting to the possibility that state governments could legitimacy run a scrap of socialism without the world ending wouldn't be the principled libertarian position. So, the real world full of real voters can go hang.

It's April of 2011. Super Tuesday is one short year away. The time for putting the finer points on how to privatize a fire department has passed. We had better figure out how to make people understand how to get these arrogant thieves the fuck out while there's still something left to save. And we do that by figuring out how to make the voters understand why it's vital they give even a tiny morsel of our principle a chance to work for them. Now.

[acptulsa]

dup

[Tal]

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Kasper0007/spread-anarchy-dont-tell-me-what-to-do.jpg

:D

[acptulsa]

In 1964 Goldwater got the nomination asking, why not victory? He got painted as a warmonger for it. He found out why not victory--the military industrial complex sells more during stalemates. I was too young to remember. And now? The electorate is willing to turn away from the blaring propaganda box once again. Will we define ourselves this time, or fall into their definition of us? We had better figure it out, because...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1wg1DNHbNU

[TheDriver]

Ron and Rand Paul ARE changing things. Do you fail to see that?

Do you fail to see my point? If they ran 3rd party and made enough noise, it would easy the load for future candidates. Instead they tip-toe around trying not to piss the GOP off, because they think they can't win without their money. Maybe some of you are fine with one family making it to higher office, I'm not. I'm more concerned about an alternative to the two parties, and Ron and Rand aren't offering that, instead they are trying to blend. It worked to get them elected but besides that I don't see much change in the general direction of our country.

[MN Patriot]

This is why I quit the LP 12 years ago. Too busy debating each other. Nobody wants to figure out how to become a serious political party.

[freshjiva]

Libertarians (with a big L) should switch their party membership to Republican and support RP 2012.

How's that for solidarity and unity.

[MN Patriot]

Imo, if Ron or Rand truly cared about "changing" things, they'd ditch the GOP. Even if they lost their elections, the scars they would leave would help the 3rd party alternative ten-fold. And, yes I understand Ron tried back in the 80s as a libertarian. However, I think being an "independent" is the way to go. What are you independent of? The two parties!

The word "independent" means nothing. Libertarian has a well defined meaning. If we are to create a third party, it should be a libertarian party. Not a "conservative" party, either. The word "conservative" means to maintain the status quo, which the Republicans want to do.

[MN Patriot]

Libertarians (with a big L) should switch their party membership to Republican and support RP 2012.

How's that for solidarity and unity.

How many big L libertarians are actually in the party? Maybe 20,000, if that. Wouldn't make any difference.

A better route would be all the libertarians in the Republican Party join the LP and put the Republican Party into third party status, or at least make it irrelevant so that Americans could see there really is no difference between the R's and D's.

[Travlyr]

A third party can win in 2012 or 2016.

"Spoiler" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?287771)

[Matt Collins]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRBdKMitPIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmqXS5XSn10

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

The architect who would build himself a house must become a brickmason and a carpenter. Please tell me, if you will, what the fuck good are our high and mighty principles if we don't run enough good candidates, educate enough voters, and make the tough choices of which battle to give quarter in so we may win another, more important battle outright? Without this, our glorious and oh, so practical principles look good but only on paper.

The rubber is about to meet the road. Either we shove some little part of The Answer down their throats and make them see how good it tastes, or we're the worst sort of useless academia and we fiddle while Rome burns.

Not to be Captain Obvious but...

Does the act of building a house require politicians?

[Fredom101]

The LP is already dead. The day they nominated Bob Barr sealed their fate. The LP will never be an effective way of educating people, or having any significant impact on true change.

[AGRP]

A lot of people need to take a giant step back and realize a few facts:

The third/multiple party idea has proven to be an defunct idea in our corrupt two party system.

Ron himself tried it and he got nowhere until he ran as a Republican.

Many "libertarians" who won in 2010 would have never won if they ran on a third party/libertarian ticket.

Listen to Ron Paul: Pick the party you think you can win with and run on it.

[acptulsa]

Not to be Captain Obvious but...

Does the act of building a house require politicians?

No. It requires statesmen. And so long as we can't see beyond the ends of our noses, we will neither produce nor promote any.

And we're picking out running mates for a man even though we can't stop arguing long enough to get to the nomination.

[TheDriver]

A lot of people need to take a giant step back and realize a few facts:

The third/multiple party idea has proven to be an defunct idea in our corrupt two party system.

Ron himself tried it and he got nowhere until he ran as a Republican.

Many "libertarians" who won in 2010 would have never won if they ran on a third party/libertarian ticket.

Listen to Ron Paul: Pick the party you think you can win with and run on it.


After Ron gets thumped by the GOP in the coming months maybe some people will view that sinister entity differently.

[TheDriver]

The word "independent" means nothing. Libertarian has a well defined meaning. If we are to create a third party, it should be a libertarian party. Not a "conservative" party, either. The word "conservative" means to maintain the status quo, which the Republicans want to do.

Wrong for politics. Because you don't want a strict platform. You want a platform to attract the sheeple, which means as vague as possible. Which is why the label independent is better than libertarian, imo.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

No. It requires statesmen. And so long as we can't see beyond the ends of our noses, we will neither produce nor promote any.

And we're picking out running mates for a man even though we can't stop arguing long enough to get to the nomination.

Have you ever considered something simple...

well...

like building one small house...

before...

say...

a Tower of Babel?

[AGRP]

After Ron gets thumped by the GOP in the coming months maybe some people will view that sinister entity differently.

Ron Paul would have never had the opportunity to "get thumped" if he didn't run as a Republican and there are plenty more people like Ron on the way to help him.

[Travlyr]

After Ron gets thumped by the GOP in the coming months maybe some people will view that sinister entity differently.

That's right Driver. "Spoiler (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?287771)" is worth taking the time to watch. A third party can win... in 2012 or 2016. It is up to us.

[TheDriver]

Ron Paul would have never had the opportunity to "get thumped" if he didn't run as a Republican and there are plenty more people like Ron on the way to help him.

Right.

However, Ron Paul has been all over the news since the 2007 explosion, and has failed to garner enough support to "explode" in the polls. What does that mean? His message doesn't gain its strength from the GOP, it's pervasive. What does that all mean? There will be 10% of so of us, but never a majority. We'll never change the GOP's general direction. However we can define an alternative to A and B. It's not easy, but it's at least possible, where brainwashing the mindless GOP isn't, imo.

For example look at the recent budget fight: It was said the GOP cut 30 something odd billion. However is the budget not larger than the previous one? They only cut 30 billion from Obama's projected budget. If that's change, we're in trouble.

[jtstellar]

just call yourself a libertarian or conservative or constitutionalist.. whichever is most convenient for the occasion. just pretend that "L"ibertarians are too non-existent to call you out on the name switching.. it's not far from the truth anyway.

[AGRP]

Right.

However, Ron Paul has been all over the news since the 2007 explosion, and has failed to garner enough support to "explode" in the polls. What does that mean? His message doesn't gain its strength from the GOP, it's pervasive. What does that all mean? There will be 10% of so of us, but never a majority. We'll never change the GOP's general direction. However we can define an alternative to A and B. It's not easy, but it's at least possible, where brainwashing the mindless GOP isn't, imo.

For example look at the recent budget fight: It was said the GOP cut 30 something odd billion. However is the budget not larger than the previous one? They only cut 30 billion from Obama's projected budget. If that's change, we're in trouble.

You're expecting an entire system of government to change because of one man?

The Republican ticket has been 100xs more successful in getting Libertarians elected than the Libertarian ticket itself. The time to create a system that is kind to multiple parties is WHEN there are a substantial amount of Libertarian type Republicans/Democrats to make it happen.

[jtstellar]

Bah, humbug.
http://cdn.stereogum.com/files/2010/07/Robyn-Dont-Fucking-Tell-Me-What-To-Do-Album-Art.jpg

thereby you're telling what other people shouldn't do, rofl

big L (for loser) "L"ibertarians are a joke

[TheDriver]

You're expecting an entire system of government to change because of one man?

The Republican ticket has been 100xs more successful in getting Libertarians elected than the Libertarian ticket itself. The time to create a system that is kind to multiple parties is WHEN there are a substantial amount of Libertarian type Republicans/Democrats to make it happen.

Right. I am by no means defending the libertarian ticket. However, I am saying run as an "independent."

[AGRP]

Right. I am by no means defending the libertarian ticket. However, I am saying run as an "independent."

Sheep don't vote "independent."

[TheDriver]

Sheep don't vote "independent."

True, however look at where the sheep have gone.--run-away government with a 14 trillion dollar hole.

I spent the last 2 years playing the GOP-get-elected game, and we won. However, I don't see the future there.

[Peace&Freedom]

As I have reminded people whenever this discussion comes up, exactly what has the Republican Party done in 80 years LEGISLATIVELY to actually reverse the course of the total state? Can you think of anything? Hmm, thought not. I'll take Libertarian infighting any day, over eight decades of GOP solidarity over its TOTAL policy failure.

Winning elections is an illusion, given the corruption and permanent elite control of both major parties. What the LP has done for the last 40 years is maintain a consistent baseline for defining what the liberty position is, despite all attempts to infiltrate it and make it the GOP-LP lite (as with the RLC). Other than Ron Paul, and later the Mises/Rockwell family of websites, no other institution has provided that plumb line.

The LP HAS fought the enemy, by surviving long enough to see the results of the educational campaigns it seeded for decades bearing partial fruit with the Paul candidacy in 2007-8, and the success afterwards. It has taken the movement and Paul decades just to get the Federal Reserve up to the status of mainstream (and not marginal) issue. This is a long game, and the party has fought it that way, instead of being overly consumed with winning token elections at the expense of its principles.