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tsai3904
04-15-2011, 02:28 PM
Not sure how many of you play poker online but this is pretty big news in that industry.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2011/04/three-largest-online-poker-sites-indicted-and-shut-down-by-fbi.html


The founders of the three largest online poker sites were indicted by the FBI on Friday in what could serve as a death blow to the thriving industry.

Eleven executives at PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker and Absolute Poker were charged with bank fraud and money laundering in an indictment unsealed in a Manhattan court. Two of the executives were arrested on Friday morning in Utah and Nevada. Federal agents are searching for the others.

Prosecutors are seeking to immediately shut down the sites and to eventually send the executives to jail and to recover $3 billion from the companies. By Friday afternoon Full Tilt Poker’s site displayed a message explaining that “this domain name has been seized by the F.B.I. pursuant to an Arrest Warrant.”

The online gambling industry has taken off over the last decade, drawing an estimated 15 million Americans to bet online.

In 2006 Congress passed a law prohibiting online gambling. Most of the leading sites found ways to work around the law using foreign banks, but prosecutors allege that in doing so they broke the law.

“These defendants concocted an elaborate criminal fraud scheme, alternately tricking some U.S. banks and effectively bribing others to assure the continued flow of billions in illegal gambling profits,” Preet Bharara, the U.S. attorney in Manhattan, said in a statement.

Here's the story on how the Fed's brought them down:
http://www.businessinsider.com/boy-genius-online-poker-scandal-2011-4

TheNcredibleEgg
04-15-2011, 02:34 PM
Something tells me this is a prelude attack to Senator Reid's bill to allow U.S. casinos to operate online poker sites. Shut down the competition first then awhile later pass a bill to let online casinos operate again.

But ONLY U.S. casinos - as per a provision Harry made sure is in the bill. You have to have operated a real brick & mortar casino for at least 5 years in order to qualify to run one online. Corporatism at its worst.

specsaregood
04-15-2011, 02:35 PM
In 2006 Congress passed a law prohibiting online gambling. Most of the leading sites found ways to work around the law using foreign banks, but prosecutors allege that in doing so they broke the law.

Dr. Paul's objection to said law:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b7_h_OyTI0

gls
04-15-2011, 02:36 PM
Wow...isn't it great to live in such a "free" country? :rolleyes:

I thought this matter had been settled since poker is a game of skill, therefore not technically "gambling". Apparently it had not. :(

Kotin
04-15-2011, 02:37 PM
yet another case of Government protecting corporate interests as well as its own.

tsai3904
04-15-2011, 02:38 PM
Dr. Paul's objection to said law:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b7_h_OyTI0

Most poker players will support Democrats because of this single issue that affects their profession/livelihood. We can present Ron Paul as the only candidate running for President for legalizing online poker.

JamesButabi
04-15-2011, 02:46 PM
Yep we need to target groups. This is the perfect example. Poker players will be furious as this and Ron Paul is the shining beacon on the hill who has always stood against.

dannno
04-15-2011, 02:56 PM
Those sites are such a rip off.. even if you win big it's hard to get your money out (but not impossible apparently).

I wish they would legalize it already so there could be some good healthy competition.

Matt Collins
04-15-2011, 02:58 PM
But we live in a free country, right?

specsaregood
04-15-2011, 02:59 PM
Those sites are such a rip off.. even if you win big it's hard to get your money out (but not impossible apparently).

Well its difficult to get the money out because of the govt's rules, which is what these executives have been indicted for -- circumventing the law.

gls
04-15-2011, 02:59 PM
But we live in a free country, right?

Look at the silver lining here -- maybe the terrorists will hate us less now.

TheNcredibleEgg
04-15-2011, 03:00 PM
I wish they would legalize it already so there could be some good healthy competition.

The legalization here is not going to be in the form of healthy competition. It's going to be in the form of a Vegas Bill sponsored by Reid that ONLY allows the bricks & mortar casinos to operate an online casino.

Letting these sites stay open and letting any other domestic based site compete (anybody) against them would be the only good solution. But that won't happen.

Proph
04-15-2011, 03:37 PM
Heh. Twoplustwo is blowing up. In the midst of this financial crisis, who thought it would be a good idea to take even more jobs away? There are some people out there whose sole source of income is money made from online poker. I had actually been following someone's post on there who had *just* completed a 200->10K challenge (verneer) and was going to donate it to charity. I hope he withdrew it already.

specsaregood
04-15-2011, 03:42 PM
So the lesson here is: if you want to service the wants of the American people then don't come to the US, don't live in the US and don't incorporate in the US. Just take the money out of the US via the internet and call it a day.

JamesButabi
04-15-2011, 04:13 PM
So the lesson here is: if you want to service the wants of the American people then don't come to the US, don't live in the US and don't incorporate in the US. Just take the money out of the US via the internet and call it a day.

Or just provide a service that millions of US citizens are willing to voluntarily support without being threatened with violence.


edit* not sure im interpreting your statement correctly as I read it over a second time

Wesker1982
04-15-2011, 04:41 PM
This is beyond lame. I am glad I took my money out a while ago.


Heh. Twoplustwo is blowing up.

Off topic: I discovered Ron Paul (and eventually ancap) thanks to the twoplustwo politics forum.


Those sites are such a rip off.. even if you win big it's hard to get your money out (but not impossible apparently).


I never had any problems getting my money by check.

KCIndy
04-15-2011, 04:47 PM
But we live in a free country, right?


Yeah, of course. After all, "they hate us for our freedoms," right??? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Wesker1982
04-15-2011, 04:54 PM
I don't know about you guys but I feel a lot safer now!

TY U.S. gov for protecting us.

KramerDSP
04-15-2011, 05:11 PM
Off topic: I discovered Ron Paul (and eventually ancap) thanks to the twoplustwo politics forum.

Thanks for the heads up. I did a search of Ron Paul on their Politics forum and came up with tons of links (http:http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/search.php?searchid=17866503//).

mport1
04-15-2011, 05:31 PM
Such terrible news. I have a lot of friends with money on the site that they will likely never see again. The government will just steal it and never return it to anybody. However, I think there is an opportinity here to recruit a lot of libertarians. Millions of people play online poker and now they have been directly impacted by the violence of government. It should be a lot easier to get the ideas of liberty across to them now.

AZKing
04-15-2011, 05:41 PM
Dangit, I love Pokerstars. Bastards.

tsai3904
04-15-2011, 05:42 PM
Such terrible news. I have a lot of friends with money on the site that they will likely never see again. The government will just steal it and never return it to anybody. However, I think there is an opportinity here to recruit a lot of libertarians. Millions of people play online poker and now they have been directly impacted by the violence of government. It should be a lot easier to get the ideas of liberty across to them now.

Yea, I agree. To the poker players who think Democrats are on their side, you can point them to the actual vote of making online gambling illegal here (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll363.xml). 115 out of 191 Democrats (60%) voted to make it illegal. Also, Obama was able to instruct the DOJ to stop defending the Defense of Marriage Act, so he is also able to instruct the DOJ to stop enforcing the illegal online gambling laws, which he didn't.

KramerDSP
04-15-2011, 05:44 PM
WWF Legend Hacksaw Jim Duggan's take on this news:


Jim Duggan · Glens Falls Senior High School
This is an incredibly corrupt, overbearing, and overreaching government that has just alienated millions of people of their trust.

tsai3904
04-15-2011, 06:21 PM
Wow...I guess this was the government's incentive:


The Indictment and Civil Complaint seek at least $3 billion in civil money laundering penalties and forfeiture from the Poker Companies and the defendants

Source: http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/April11/scheinbergetalindictmentpr.pdf

AlienLanes82
04-15-2011, 06:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6huoaAZEwU0

Remember the good times, fellow fallen soldiers.

Wesker1982
04-15-2011, 07:01 PM
WWF Legend Hacksaw Jim Duggan's take on this news:

lol that is random. I used to watch him when I was a kid. HAAAAAOOOOOOOOO!*


*i'm drunk

cindy25
04-15-2011, 07:40 PM
why did they still USA domains? torrent sites have been switching to .me, .it, .bz, .eu for months.

I am surprised this site does not have a back up non-USA domain, because after gambling and copyright they will come for gold and political sites.

TheeJoeGlass
04-15-2011, 07:41 PM
Feel bad for all the pro's! They just lost their sponsors.

AGRP
04-15-2011, 07:44 PM
Remember kiddies:

State gambling: GOOD

Private gambling: BAD

malkusm
04-15-2011, 07:55 PM
Does anyone have a link to Harry Reid's bill, or an article explaining his bill? I'd like to pass that along.

tsai3904
04-15-2011, 08:00 PM
Does anyone have a link to Harry Reid's bill, or an article explaining his bill? I'd like to pass that along.

This is an article about his bill from last Congress:
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2010/12/pokernews-op-ed-legalize-it-9453.htm

He hasn't sponsored a bill yet regarding online poker for this session of Congress.

angelatc
04-15-2011, 08:08 PM
pokerstars.net seems to be up, as does fulltiltpoker.com.... ?

tsai3904
04-15-2011, 08:19 PM
pokerstars.net seems to be up, as does fulltiltpoker.com.... ?

The .net sites are marketing sites. The software you download from the .net sites only let you use play money.

It can take up to 48 hours for the sites to show them as being seized on some browsers/geographic locations. Pokerstars.com and fulltiltpoker.com show up as being seized for me.

Echoes
04-15-2011, 08:23 PM
Like others have stated, this is a good opportunity to bring more voters to our side. Every vote counts, and 15 million online gamblers is a significant amount. Most of them have probably never even heard of Ron Paul.

Kregisen
04-15-2011, 09:01 PM
Washington D.C. legalizes online gambling - http://www.gambling911.com/gambling-news/online-gambling-becomes-legalized-united-states-thanks-washington-dc-041211.html


Washington, D.C., with its under 1 million population, has become the first jurisdiction in the United States to legalize online gambling.

The District of Columbia is looking to raise millions of dollars from a multi-billion dollar industry that, until now, has operated exclusively offshore from the United States. That apparently is about to change.

Both Full Tilt Poker and PokerStars have announced alliances with Las Vegas casino properties in recent weeks. PokerStars is backing a measure to legalize online poker in the state of Nevada.

dean.engelhardt
04-15-2011, 09:37 PM
pokerstars.net seems to be up, as does fulltiltpoker.com.... ?

I am playing on Pokerstars.net now. The free games that give real rewards are blocked because of the new law enforcement. You can only play for play money. I steaming over this. 6 years ago, my rep Joe Pitts came into my home and took away my ability to play poker for money on the internet. Tonight he came in my house again. EFF YOU JOE PITTS

nayjevin
04-15-2011, 10:25 PM
Such terrible news. I have a lot of friends with money on the site that they will likely never see again. The government will just steal it and never return it to anybody.

What are you talking about? Didn't you read the article?


Prosecutors are seeking to immediately shut down the sites and to eventually send the executives to jail and to recover $3 billion from the companies. By Friday afternoon Full Tilt Poker’s site displayed a message explaining that “this domain name has been seized by the F.B.I. pursuant to an Arrest Warrant.”

It's the government's money - it was stolen from THEM!
:rolleyes:

Poker Players Alliance (http://theppa.org/) would be natural allies to the cause.


[Press Release] PPA Comments on Federal Action Against Online Poker Companies (04/15/2011)

WASHINGTON, DC. (April 15, 2011)
– Former Senator Alfonse D’Amato, Chairman of thePoker Players Alliance (PPA), the leading poker grassroots advocacy group with more than one million members nationwide, issued the comment below on today’s announcement on federal action taken against online poker companies.“On behalf of the millions of poker players across the country, we are shocked at the action taken by the U.S. Department of Justice today against online poker companies and will continue tofight for Americans’ right to participate in the game they enjoy. Online poker is not a crime and should not be treated as such. We are currently gathering all of the information around today’s announcement and will offer detailed analysis when the full facts become available.”

tsai3904
04-16-2011, 11:55 AM
In the House, there's already a bill (HR 1174 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-1174)) to regulate/legalize online gambling that was sponsored by a Republican, John Campbell. There's no doubt that the poker players will rally behind this bill and possibly John Campbell.

I think if Rand Paul were to be the first to sponsor a similar bill in the Senate, he could gather the same support from hundreds of thousands of poker players. However, if he were to just cosponsor a bill that was sponsored by a Democrat, I don't think he would get that support.

I would guess that a large portion of the poker community isn't interested in politics so this would be a large segment of the non-voting population that we can turn into supporters for Ron / Rand Paul.

Can anyone in Kentucky contact Rand Paul's offices and get his views on online gambling or at least get the question to his staff so that he is aware of the issue?

mport1
04-16-2011, 12:26 PM
It's the government's money - it was stolen from THEM!
:rolleyes:

Poker Players Alliance (http://theppa.org/) would be natural allies to the cause.

How can anything every be stolen from the government? They do not legitimately own anything since everything they have was stolen from others to begin with.

IDefendThePlatform
04-16-2011, 01:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6huoaAZEwU0

Remember the good times, fellow fallen soldiers.

Great video. Damn this pisses me off.

IDefendThePlatform
04-16-2011, 01:47 PM
Yep we need to target groups. This is the perfect example. Poker players will be furious as this and Ron Paul is the shining beacon on the hill who has always stood against.

Totally agree. What other groups could I add to target in this ad? Poker Players Alliance is the only one its targeting right now.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=336&d=1302980479

Links Here:
http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-07-20/ron-paul-legalize-online-gambling-and-dont-tax-it/


Estimated Reach
40,020 people
who live in the United States
age 16 and older
who like poker players alliance

tsai3904
04-16-2011, 02:03 PM
Totally agree. What other groups could I add to target in this ad? Poker Players Alliance is the only one its targeting right now.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=336&d=1302980479

Links Here:
http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-07-20/ron-paul-legalize-online-gambling-and-dont-tax-it/


Estimated Reach
40,020 people
who live in the United States
age 16 and older
who like poker players alliance

That's a great idea. How much does it cost? I would help chip in on that.

Are you able to target people who "like" certain things like PokerStars or FullTilt?

IDefendThePlatform
04-16-2011, 02:42 PM
That's a great idea. How much does it cost? I would help chip in on that.

Are you able to target people who "like" certain things like PokerStars or FullTilt?

Yes, the ads can be targeted to just about any "like" that exists on facebook. Here is the current list of targets for the above ad:

Estimated Reach
918,500 people
who live in the United States
age 16 and older
who like betting, betting is exciting, betting on sports, bodog, bodog poker, fulltiltpoker, gambling, gaming, online casino, online casino games, online gaming, online poker fanatics, poker, poker blitz, poker league, poker palace, poker west, pokerguru or pokerstars

And I can definitely get a chip-in going, just have to setup my account with them again. Which I've been meaning to do anyway. Cost for one month runtime with roughly ~150,000 impressions and 200 clickthroughs would prob be about $100. But we could also run similar ads after its done.

Cleaner44
04-16-2011, 03:10 PM
Those sites are such a rip off.. even if you win big it's hard to get your money out (but not impossible apparently).

I wish they would legalize it already so there could be some good healthy competition.

I won plenty but it is the govt that has ripped me off. Had money in both Full Tilt and PokerStars.

BlackTerrel
04-16-2011, 03:38 PM
I got a text this morning from by buddy. I had over 8K in Full Tilt (started from an initial investment of $300 over 2 years ago). Right now it says my money is frozen and "safe". I have gone from thinking it was a joke to WTF, to anger, to more anger, to really fucking pissed.

So glad our government is using our tax dollars to bust these violent criminals and make us safe :eek:

BlackTerrel
04-16-2011, 03:44 PM
Totally agree. What other groups could I add to target in this ad? Poker Players Alliance is the only one its targeting right now.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=336&d=1302980479

Links Here:
http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-07-20/ron-paul-legalize-online-gambling-and-dont-tax-it/


Estimated Reach
40,020 people
who live in the United States
age 16 and older
who like poker players alliance

I'll be honest. This is a GREAT idea.

malkusm
04-16-2011, 03:49 PM
I encourage everyone to +rep IDefendThePlatform....he has been running targeted Facebook ads in Iowa and New Hampshire for several months now, on his own dime (as far as I am aware). Really a great way to connect with people who are apathetic when the government pisses them off on a passing issue, such as internet poker.

No1ButPaul08
04-16-2011, 03:55 PM
I got a text this morning from by buddy. I had over 8K in Full Tilt (started from an initial investment of $300 over 2 years ago). Right now it says my money is frozen and "safe". I have gone from thinking it was a joke to WTF, to anger, to more anger, to really fucking pissed.

So glad our government is using our tax dollars to bust these violent criminals and make us safe :eek:

I'm with you man. I got 10k tied up between Stars and Absolute.

gerryb
04-16-2011, 03:56 PM
Digg article just hit frontpage -- currently light on the comments..

http://digg.com/news/business/online_poker_companies_indicted_for_fraud

mport1
04-16-2011, 04:01 PM
Unfortunately I don't think people will ever get their money back. I have a few friends that are professional poker players who mainly play online. Now they cannot get to the hundreds of thousands they have online and are effectively unemployed.

tsai3904
04-16-2011, 06:17 PM
Looks like some people on the twoplustwo poker forums are having a discussion about Ron Paul:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/ron-paul-internet-gambling-x-post-legislation-1021624/

Pretty interesting to see individuals who don't aren't as on top of the latest Ron Paul news debate him and his ideas. I would say there's been more positive comments than negative, but not by too much.

HOLLYWOOD
04-16-2011, 06:24 PM
This was probably initiated by Harry Reid and his crones frienf Eric Holder...

For Harry Reid to win the US Senate Race and get the full support and manipulation by the Gaming Industry in Nevada... Harry Reid will start legislation that give Nevada based Casinos/Gaming corporations a monopoly to online gaming. Of course the legislation will be submitted/approved/voted upon on right AFTER all the other non-donating to Harry Reid for Senate are closed down, fined, and/or jailed.

Just watch, it's all lining up nicely.

Indy Vidual
04-16-2011, 07:07 PM
But we live in a free country, right?
You are free to accept your loss of rights.


Look at the silver lining here -- maybe the terrorists will hate us less now.

:)
Perhaps we can end the wars...

specialK
04-16-2011, 07:19 PM
As the FBI will now have access to names of everyone who used their credit card on those sites, do former players now have to be concerned about being listed on some kind of FBI/DHS database list?

Indy Vidual
04-16-2011, 07:53 PM
As the FBI will now have access to names of everyone who used their credit card on those sites, do former players now have to be concerned about being listed on some kind of FBI/DHS database list?

Officially connected to Cybercrime...
The Poker Player list doesn't seem too serious, IMO.

specialK
04-16-2011, 07:56 PM
http://www.pokerstars.com/

Not according to this

IDefendThePlatform
04-16-2011, 08:02 PM
http://www.pokerstars.com/

Not according to this

F***ing A. Really? 5 years in prison or $250,000? For online gambling? Unreal. Yeah I know, they are very *benevolent* and would probably let most of us off with just probation. Isn't our government generous?

TheNcredibleEgg
04-16-2011, 08:12 PM
F***ing A. Really? 5 years in prison or $250,000? For online gambling? Unreal. Yeah I know, they are very *benevolent* and would probably let most of us off with just probation. Isn't our government generous?

Well, since poker is out, let's bet on how long it will take Harry Reid to re-issue his Big Casino sponsored bill to resurrect online gambling - this time without international competition.

Over/under anyone?

(Does that ^^ constitute illegal betting according to the FBI?)

angelatc
04-16-2011, 08:18 PM
As the FBI will now have access to names of everyone who used their credit card on those sites, do former players now have to be concerned about being listed on some kind of FBI/DHS database list?

IIRC, the law was written so that the players couldn't be prosecuted, only the companies who moved the money around.

Echoes
04-16-2011, 08:18 PM
I've been on PokerStars for the last hour or so, it's still up. You can still use 'play' (fake) money. Anyway, i've been table hopping spamming RP and the freedom message. I've actually gotten a few responses--ill check out ronpaulforums :) If you're a member of these sites under attack, do the same.

angelatc
04-16-2011, 08:20 PM
How do they keep people from cheating on those sites? It seems like a cell phone and a few buddies could work some amazing scams.

IDefendThePlatform
04-16-2011, 08:25 PM
I've been on PokerStars for the last hour or so, it's still up. You can still use 'play' (fake) money. Anyway, i've been table hopping spamming RP and the freedom message. I've actually gotten a few responses--ill check out ronpaulforums :) If you're a member of these sites under attack, do the same.

Good work. +rep

Indy Vidual
04-16-2011, 08:27 PM
http://www.pokerstars.com/

Not according to this


IIRC, the law was written so that the players couldn't be prosecuted, only the companies who moved the money around.

I read it that way at first, but...
People who receive payments (winners) might also be targeted by the same laws?

tsai3904
04-19-2011, 05:11 PM
Article on Barney Frank's view on the crackdown:
http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/156655-rep-barney-frank-blasts-obama-admin-for-online-poker-crackdown

Article on Spencer Bachus' view (chairman of House Financial Services Committee where legislation would have to go through):
http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/156851-gop-standing-firm-on-internet-gambling-ban

dannno
04-19-2011, 05:21 PM
How do they keep people from cheating on those sites? It seems like a cell phone and a few buddies could work some amazing scams.

Hmm, that's a good point, you probably could get away with that at the regular tables.

In the big money tournaments you get randomly assigned to tables, though.

Napoleon's Shadow
08-24-2011, 06:27 PM
Rounders for Ron Paul:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/RoundersForRonPaul/240070542679882

JOIN IT!

Warrior_of_Freedom
08-24-2011, 06:30 PM
But we live in a free country, right?
Only if you're a welfare recipient!
ba-ding!