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View Full Version : Coupon abuse? Is it moral to a libertarian? Free market? Scam or legit use of a promo?




Reason
04-11-2011, 12:07 AM
http://youtu.be/IW2FRWaNviI

This seems immoral to me in terms of respecting private property & the fact that these businesses exist by charging money for their products, I don't doubt for a second that this lady couldn't care less if one of these companies she is abusing went out of business, part of this irritation on the subject for me is the fact that I work in retail & had this happen the other day.

We had a customer come in that wanted to buy an item that was on sale for 100$ (normally 180$). He wanted to use a 20% off discount coupon he had as well as a 10$ off coupon...

We looked up how much the item costs the store and it costs the store 90$ not including shipping it etc

We agreed to honor either the 20% off OR the 10$ off coupon, not both.

The customer threw an absolute temper tantrum & demanded that we scan the 10$ coupon after we had applied the 20% off discount bringing it down to 80$.

We said he no, he whined more, we said no, he got angry, we said no, he demanded management, we said we were, he demanded we show in writing where it shows that he can't use both, we pointed to the fine print that said "we reserve the right to decline use of these offers for any reason", he said that "didn't matter", lol... we tried to explain to him that he was already getting the item for less than what it cost us and we were loosing money already so he should be pleased he is getting such a crazy deal, he literally shouted "I DO NOT CARE IF YOU LOOSE MONEY!" then stormed out of the store...

Good riddance. He then called us "loosers" as he walked out :rolleyes:

TheNcredibleEgg
04-11-2011, 12:15 AM
I don't see anything wrong with "coupon abuse." In fact, I applaud it.

If enough people do it - the stores or manufactures will change policy to avoid losing money. So there's no risk of a company going bankrupt. If it's just a select few - which it apparently is - more power to them.

As far as the guy in your store, I don't blame him for asking for the maximum discount. It doesn't hurt to ask. I do blame him for throwing a tantrum once you said no and showed him the fine print backing your position.

Zippyjuan
04-11-2011, 12:23 AM
It will be up to the store to determine their own policy. Sometimes coupons are put out by the manufacturer and the store gets re-imbursed for those. The store has no incentve to restrict those. If the coupon is put out by the store, then the discount comes off their bottom line. Some stores do not allow using multiple discounts. A customer who costs you money is not one you get upset about losing. Now if this was a good customer who puts down thousands of dollars in your store on a regular basis, you probably want to do what you can to keep them happy (within reason). Some stores or companies will sometimes sell thing below cost just to get people in to buy more things to go with it (like say thanksgiving turkeys and not reducing the stuff that goes with them like the stuffing and gravy)- loss leaders. I don't think you did anything wrong in this case. The store has the right to restrict it.

Kludge
04-11-2011, 12:46 AM
So what are we talking about? Is "coupon abuse" taking advantage of coupons even when the store... looses money or trying to use coupons when they shouldn't apply?

Guy referenced in the OP sounds like a jackass, but I'm not going to turn my nose up at a deal just because the promo manager's a dumbass. $.80 coupons on a $1.75 grocery item doubled by a local grocer -- I've got no problem taking a $1.75 item for $.15. I 100% approve of winning.

-- Here's another scenario. A lot of goods-producing companies on the Internet employ the "give and pray" business model. They give their product away (at a loss, obviously) and pray the customers will later buy it. This is especially common with luxury items. I've got more free tobacco than I'll be able to smoke in a year, gourmet coffee, 4-packs of unreleased Pepsi products shipped by air in an iced container, and large quantities of sea weed extract. Do I have any intention of buying the products? No. Do I lose any sleep in requesting the offered products, anyway? Nope.

-- Or here's another. Many credit card companies offer $100 or so if you apply for a credit card and make $500 or so in purchases. You can put $500 on it, pay it off the same month, make a $100 purchase with the money the credit card company gave you, and then close the account.

-- Or another. Amazon offers a 15% discount if you sign up to receive food products at regular intervals. You can cancel at any time. Cancel right after the product has shipped and you've saved 15% on what you were going to purchase anyway, and don't have to buy the product at regular intervals.


There's no moral reason I can find not to take advantage of poorly-designed systems. When they lose money because of it, it's their own fault. I don't make purchases out of charity.

goldencane
04-11-2011, 01:01 AM
Adjust your policy so that it says only one or two coupons at a time. While on the surface it may seem OK to lose a customer that costs you money, don't forget about the additional customers you may lose because he told them about his bad experience with the company.

AZKing
04-11-2011, 01:04 AM
I'm more interested in why anyone would need that much mustard O_O

MikeStanart
04-11-2011, 01:07 AM
If it's not against store policy, it's the store's coupon and the store accepts it, there's nothing wrong. Now, if there's obvious fraud going on....like editing coupon expiration dates, coupon duplication, or creating your own coupons...that's obviously wrong.

Kludge
04-11-2011, 01:10 AM
I'm more interested in why anyone would need that much mustard O_O
Stockpiling. Your jaw would drop if you saw how many paper towels and rolls of toilet paper we have downstairs. At one point, we had well over 20 unopened boxes of cereal. ... Nothing like the Youtube woman, but I guess that's why she was on a TV show.

Good during winter storms, long-term blackouts, military takeovers... And waaaaay cheaper than buying those cans of MRE-type foods.

Zippyjuan
04-11-2011, 01:16 AM
I love to find the values and use coupons- it is economically rational thing to do. Rather than merely taking advantage of legitimate offers, the person in the OP was trying ot get even more of a discount which the store had the right to say no to.

When I worked in a grocery store, they had double coupons. You could often get items for free or very low cost. Well, some people took advantage of it. They come in with stacks of coupons, get all the free or nearly free stuff they can, and then resell it (swap meets most likely). It was a business for them. So the store put in a limit of three of the same coupons to be doubled. So the family would split up and each would have three coupons each for dozens of items and all go thorugh different check-outs and hit different stores as well. Where did they get the coupons? My guess was from newspaper vending machines. Pay for one paper, take them all (or at least all the coupon sections- but would be faster to take the whole stack and sort at home). Then the store cut it to one double and now they only double to a maximum of $1 (a 75 cent coupon plus 25 cents double for $1 total savings). The double portion gets paid by the store- the rest by the manufacturer so it was costing the store money so they had to change it.

Fox McCloud
04-11-2011, 01:51 AM
http://youtu.be/IW2FRWaNviI

This seems immoral to me in terms of respecting private property & the fact that these businesses exist by charging money for their products, I don't doubt for a second that this lady couldn't care less if one of these companies she is abusing went out of business, part of this irritation on the subject for me is the fact that I work in retail & had this happen the other day.

We had a customer come in that wanted to buy an item that was on sale for 100$ (normally 180$). He wanted to use a 20% off discount coupon he had as well as a 10$ off coupon...

We looked up how much the item costs the store and it costs the store 90$ not including shipping it etc

We agreed to honor either the 20% off OR the 10$ off coupon, not both.

The customer threw an absolute temper tantrum & demanded that we scan the 10$ coupon after we had applied the 20% off discount bringing it down to 80$.

We said he no, he whined more, we said no, he got angry, we said no, he demanded management, we said we were, he demanded we show in writing where it shows that he can't use both, we pointed to the fine print that said "we reserve the right to decline use of these offers for any reason", he said that "didn't matter", lol... we tried to explain to him that he was already getting the item for less than what it cost us and we were loosing money already so he should be pleased he is getting such a crazy deal, he literally shouted "I DO NOT CARE IF YOU LOOSE MONEY!" then stormed out of the store...

Good riddance. He then called us "loosers" as he walked out :rolleyes:

Funny; not surprised he wanted you to scan the 20% off first.

In either case, I don't mind extreme coupon hunters if they're doing so legitimately; that is to say, the coupons are legit, the store honors them, and they're not cheating.


I've always found "extreme couponing" interesting, but it'd never work for me; I'm extremely picky about the way some of my things are (one-hundred fold worse if its food, as I'm an extremely picky eater), and that's one thing with that lifestyle; you can't be picky about brand particulars.

In either case, some of these individuals seem to have a hoarding problem....I mean....62 bottles of mustard? Her husband specifically said he doesn't ever eat mustard. What's the point? There's also the factor of all the hours you have to invest in organizing, looking, searching, and synchronizing---here's where you'd have to ask and compare--what's the total amount of hours required to do all the work+money saved...and how much money, per hour, could you be making doing your actual job? If you could make more at your job, it'd be silly to do the couponing, as it'd ultimately be a loss.

'Course, most people aren't going to make that comparison *chuckles*

edit: it occurred to me that a computer could probably do all the analysis for this in an incredibly short order, provided it had access to the proper information channels....sadly, I can't see a system this powerful emerging in even the next 5 years.

DamianTV
04-11-2011, 02:00 AM
I have a bigger problem with the "Loyalty" or "Membership" cards than I do coupons due to the privacy issues.

Reason
04-11-2011, 02:54 AM
I dunno; I feel good when I spend some of my hard earned money supporting groups/organizations/companies that I feel provide a product/service I want/like.

I spend solid amounts of time researching which companies I want to support, I don't want to get a product from a company I like if my receiving that product harms that company...

am I looking at this all wrong?

RonPaulIsGreat
04-11-2011, 05:30 AM
I think the company should have an explicit set of rules, available to the public for such things as opposed to "we reserve the right to decline use of these offers for any reason", that is a slimy method of backing out of ill conceived promotions if it doesn't suit the company.

nobody's_hero
04-11-2011, 05:48 AM
Gotta read the fine print. If the coupon says 'not valid with other coupons or offers' (which many do), then that's the way that the merchant has decided to make his coupons and there's no sense in throwing a fit over it.

It's almost like a contract, but it's not really binding since the customer doesn't have to use the coupon.

johnrocks
04-11-2011, 06:08 AM
I had a boss when I was in the automobile business that once told me something that I try to remember since I'm in sales and I think it serves to post it here.

90% of the people that come in are good,decent people.
5% are so bitter and rude that no matter if all you say is "good morning", they will find a way to turn that into an argument.
5% are so stupid that they think that the 1994 Ford Escort with 187000 miles on it is still worth within a couple of thousand dollars of what they paid for it and there is a $10000 mark up in a $20000 car.
So concentrate on the 90% and don't let the 10% ruin your day,week,month or year.

Looks like you had a "twofer" ;one that was stupid AND rude.

angelatc
04-11-2011, 06:18 AM
http://youtu.be/IW2FRWaNviI


We had a customer come in that wanted to buy an item that was on sale for 100$ (normally 180$). He wanted to use a 20% off discount coupon he had as well as a 10$ off coupon...

We looked up how much the item costs the store and it costs the store 90$ not including shipping it etc

We agreed to honor either the 20% off OR the 10$ off coupon, not both.

Wah. Stacking coupons isn't abuse. If your employer doesn't want to accept coupons, he doesn't have to. But making individual decisions based on the whim of the cashier or the manager is customer abuse.

If the 20% coupon didn't specifically say that it wasn't valid for sale items, and/or the $10 coupon didn't say it couldn't be combined, the customer was right" you guys were acting like losers.

dean.engelhardt
04-11-2011, 06:49 AM
Coupon abuse? Is it moral to a libertarian?

I think it is very moral from a libertarian view point. The private business is in charge of what discounts they allow toward their product. In the private business discounts themselves out of business, it literally is their own business. If the solution is to get government involved (regulating coupons or reimburing losses) that would be imoral from a libertarian view point.

Bottom line is let a business make its own coupon and discount mistakes. If they go out of business, the free market will replace the business with better management.

UtahApocalypse
04-11-2011, 07:03 AM
Most stores will only allow 1 store coupon, and 1 manufacturer coupon. The store gets reimbursed for the manufacturer coupon so it is not a loss to them at all. If anything the manufacturer coupon made the item worth it for the customer to visit your store (which he wont come back ever again now)

About two months ago we hit or best deal so far: A camera retail priced at $190 went on sale for $149 we had a manufacturer coupon for $50. That sounded like a great deal to get $90 off.... the store made it even better; The cashier reminded us to use our loyalty card which took an addition 10% making our total about $90. Since then we get all of our electronics there.

As to groceries its all about how you combine the various offers that the manufacturer, and stores have at any given time. I use a Coupon Service (http://sa2.me/bnn) that costs $20 a month, then buy a couple newspapers each Sunday. We have not bought anything at the grocery store full price in months. I think the least amount saved on a shopping trip this year was 25%. We normally are paying between 40-60% of the total valued cost.


Feel free to try the service yourself. give it a couple months so you get enough coupons "stashed" to always be able to match. You would be amazed in the savings:

http://sa2.me/bnn

ItsTime
04-11-2011, 07:05 AM
Ive been buying a $1.25 item at the store for 15 cents for the past few weeks, maybe even a month now. The item has a 55 cent off coupon on it and the store doubles it. I assume they know what they are doing.

TNforPaul45
04-11-2011, 07:07 AM
http://youtu.be/IW2FRWaNviI

This seems immoral to me in terms of respecting private property & the fact that these businesses exist by charging money for their products, I don't doubt for a second that this lady couldn't care less if one of these companies she is abusing went out of business, part of this irritation on the subject for me is the fact that I work in retail & had this happen the other day.

We had a customer come in that wanted to buy an item that was on sale for 100$ (normally 180$). He wanted to use a 20% off discount coupon he had as well as a 10$ off coupon...

We looked up how much the item costs the store and it costs the store 90$ not including shipping it etc

We agreed to honor either the 20% off OR the 10$ off coupon, not both.

The customer threw an absolute temper tantrum & demanded that we scan the 10$ coupon after we had applied the 20% off discount bringing it down to 80$.

We said he no, he whined more, we said no, he got angry, we said no, he demanded management, we said we were, he demanded we show in writing where it shows that he can't use both, we pointed to the fine print that said "we reserve the right to decline use of these offers for any reason", he said that "didn't matter", lol... we tried to explain to him that he was already getting the item for less than what it cost us and we were loosing money already so he should be pleased he is getting such a crazy deal, he literally shouted "I DO NOT CARE IF YOU LOOSE MONEY!" then stormed out of the store...

Good riddance. He then called us "loosers" as he walked out :rolleyes:

Looters vs. Producers, Reason. His feelings tell him that such things as "legal fine print" dont matter.

Dreamofunity
04-11-2011, 07:23 AM
I saw one of those extreme coupon shows. I'm not sure I'd consider it immoral, just inconsiderate - mostly to the cashier. I think some of them have some form of mental problem too, the one lady bought 62+ bottles of mustard because she could get them for $0.39 and they don't spoil. She was the only one in her family that uses mustard...

WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED THAT MUCH MUSTARD!

I'd feel too bad for the cashier.

thedude
04-11-2011, 07:34 AM
Wah. Stacking coupons isn't abuse. If your employer doesn't want to accept coupons, he doesn't have to. But making individual decisions based on the whim of the cashier or the manager is customer abuse.

If the 20% coupon didn't specifically say that it wasn't valid for sale items, and/or the $10 coupon didn't say it couldn't be combined, the customer was right" you guys were acting like losers.

Free market response:

he demanded we show in writing where it shows that he can't use both, we pointed to the fine print that said "we reserve the right to decline use of these offers for any reason"

Never enter into a contract until you read it first. All of those people claiming to be "victims of predatory lending" never read the fine print. They were too busy counting the money on their way out of the bank. "May the buyer beware" is the first warning. "It's too good to be true" is the second.

Coupons are contracts and those little words are binding agreements. The property owner has every right to refuse to enter into a damaging contract when stipulations allow for it. They didn't just refuse to accept a coupon because they didn't like the guy...

thedude
04-11-2011, 07:37 AM
I saw one of those extreme coupon shows. I'm not sure I'd consider it immoral, just inconsiderate - mostly to the cashier. I think some of them have some form of mental problem too, the one lady bought 62+ bottles of mustard because she could get them for $0.39 and they don't spoil. She was the only one in her family that uses mustard...

WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED THAT MUCH MUSTARD!

I'd feel too bad for the cashier.

It's funny, my wife and I saw an advertisement for that program. Whenever we take coupons to the grocery store, we usually find the store brand item has a cheaper sticker price than the coupon savings for the name brand. What you described could possibly be a mental problem similar to the hoarders. It's more a thrill to see the reduction (I win mentality) than it is a need for the item. The biggest coupon of all = not buying it in the first place.

reduen
04-11-2011, 07:51 AM
Dude, I only wish I knew how to do this type of thing... I don't remember ever using a cupon in my life!

One thing that I noticed in the video was that all the managers and employees were happy for the first lady and acted like they were impressed. (Except maybe the cashier...)

angelatc
04-11-2011, 08:27 AM
Ive been buying a $1.25 item at the store for 15 cents for the past few weeks, maybe even a month now. The item has a 55 cent off coupon on it and the store doubles it. I assume they know what they are doing.

The best I ever did was ...there was a Catalina (the coupons that print after you checkout) for $5.00 if you bought 5 items from a particular company. Ivory soap was one of the items, and it was on sale for .39 a bar, so I bought the whole damned shelf and made money on the deal.

ItsTime
04-11-2011, 08:29 AM
The best I ever did was ...there was a Catalina (the coupons that print after you checkout) for $5.00 if you bought 5 items from a particular company. Ivory soap was one of the items, and it was on sale for .39 a bar, so I bought the whole damned shelf and made money on the deal.

Nice deal. I never seem to find anything that good.

angelatc
04-11-2011, 08:29 AM
Free market response:


Never enter into a contract until you read it first. All of those people claiming to be "victims of predatory lending" never read the fine print. They were too busy counting the money on their way out of the bank. "May the buyer beware" is the first warning. "It's too good to be true" is the second.

Coupons are contracts and those little words are binding agreements. The property owner has every right to refuse to enter into a damaging contract when stipulations allow for it. They didn't just refuse to accept a coupon because they didn't like the guy...

The thing is they lost a customer forever. (And I've never, ever seen a coupon that says "We don't really have to take this." Just sayin.....)

angelatc
04-11-2011, 08:32 AM
Nice deal. I never seem to find anything that good.

Me either. There was a Yahoo group that I belonged to that was run by one of those women you see on the TV shows about extreme couponing, They were always giving hot deal tips like that. Unfortunately, she died young and the group fell apart after that. I read a couple of blogs that try to serve the same function, but none of them are as good.

Freedom 4 all
04-11-2011, 08:33 AM
http://youtu.be/IW2FRWaNviI

This seems immoral to me in terms of respecting private property & the fact that these businesses exist by charging money for their products, I don't doubt for a second that this lady couldn't care less if one of these companies she is abusing went out of business, part of this irritation on the subject for me is the fact that I work in retail & had this happen the other day.

We had a customer come in that wanted to buy an item that was on sale for 100$ (normally 180$). He wanted to use a 20% off discount coupon he had as well as a 10$ off coupon...

We looked up how much the item costs the store and it costs the store 90$ not including shipping it etc

We agreed to honor either the 20% off OR the 10$ off coupon, not both.

The customer threw an absolute temper tantrum & demanded that we scan the 10$ coupon after we had applied the 20% off discount bringing it down to 80$.

We said he no, he whined more, we said no, he got angry, we said no, he demanded management, we said we were, he demanded we show in writing where it shows that he can't use both, we pointed to the fine print that said "we reserve the right to decline use of these offers for any reason", he said that "didn't matter", lol... we tried to explain to him that he was already getting the item for less than what it cost us and we were loosing money already so he should be pleased he is getting such a crazy deal, he literally shouted "I DO NOT CARE IF YOU LOOSE MONEY!" then stormed out of the store...

Good riddance. He then called us "loosers" as he walked out :rolleyes:

I dunno where you work, but every store I've ever seen or heard of has "may not be used in combination with other promotions" stamped on the bottom of their coupons.

angelatc
04-11-2011, 08:34 AM
I'm more interested in why anyone would need that much mustard O_O

A lot of these people donate their overages to food pantries, or sell it on eBay. Bargain hunting is like a sport for them.

angelatc
04-11-2011, 08:36 AM
I dunno where you work, but every store I've ever seen or heard of has "may not be used in combination with other promotions" stamped on the bottom of their coupons.

That's not what he said it said.

Kludge
04-11-2011, 12:10 PM
Self-checkout saves the scowl of the cashier ;)

Consider how much more money I have to give to legitimate causes, Reason. I do research who I want to support and then support them, but when I shop, it isn't a charity. I'm shopping to get the most goods at the lowest price. Whichever store is happiest to oblige, I shop there, and I'm more willing to shop there when I *don't* have coupons - or use their pharmacy - because I remember how much they've saved us.

Fox McCloud
04-11-2011, 04:46 PM
As I eluded to earlier, once we have computers that are cheap enough to analyze sales and coupons an find deals all by themselves, coupons will probably end or be drastically changed, because the amount of people taking discounts will incur a loss to the manufacturer or the retail store.

Zippyjuan
04-11-2011, 05:00 PM
Stores are now "target couponing" customers. You buy something and either printed on your receipt or a separate piece of paper you get a coupon good for some future purchase. Sometimes to get you to buy more of what you just got (like a coupon off three of something next time if you bought one or two today) or sometimes to get you to try a competing product. I don't see them going away.

Kludge
04-11-2011, 05:05 PM
As I eluded to earlier, once we have computers that are cheap enough to analyze sales and coupons an find deals all by themselves, coupons will probably end or be drastically changed, because the amount of people taking discounts will incur a loss to the manufacturer or the retail store.
There's already at least one popular website which does that. Stores' item prices are entered into a database, as well as coupon conditions, and then of course, applicable coupons. The results are searchable by item and store, the % of discount, and price for items.

I don't have the site bookmarked on this computer, but I can get it in a few minutes.

Edit: Here it is: http://www.couponmom.com/drugstore_deals.php (might need to register -- free)

satchelmcqueen
04-11-2011, 06:57 PM
i dont think there is any such thing as coupon abuse.

Philhelm
04-11-2011, 07:04 PM
It's a lot easier to get such great savings if there is coupon fraud. After a little digging, Jaime Kirlew (the first coupon lady in the video) seems to have some accusations of coupon fraud. Apparently, she may have misused coupons that were not intended for the specific items she had purchased, counting on the coupon code system and the sheer number of coupons to cover her tracks. Apparently coupons can be abused after all.

Also, she apparently has a YouTube site that once had videos of her coupon adventures, but conveniently they are no longer up, or are private.

http://www.jillcataldo.com/node/16258

Kregisen
04-11-2011, 07:44 PM
As a Finance major, I have to say that yes coupons can come in handy, but none of these hoarders ever factor in these three important variables involving opportunity costs:

1. The value of space
2. The Value of time
3. The time-value of money


1. Storing items is not free. Yes you spent $.39 on a mustard bottle, and since you bought 62, 59 of them will be sitting in your closet for the next 22 years, which means you just lost a few square feet of shelf space for 22 years, and you paid money doing so....the mustard deal was just plain stupid, it wasn't even that big of a sale.

2. Obviously like the one youtube video said, these people are spending 6 hours every day they go on a shopping trip, plus who knows how many hours gathering coupons every other day of the week. Hey, if they want to spend all their time doing that, good for them....but opportunity costs of spending all that time is not spending that time in a paying job earning wages.

3. All of this food they have stored (one family had 30,000 items or something stored?) is food bought with today's money, which is worth a lot more than next year's money. Given an example rate of return of say 5%, spending $100 today on goods when you could have invested it for a 5% return means you missed out on $5. Multiply this by the $100 they spend every shopping trip every few days and it adds up since 95% of what they get it isn't used for a year.

I buy items in bulk to save on money whenever possible but I'm way too OCD and a clean freak to stock up anywhere close to that. Still interesting to watch though!

IBleedNavyAndOrange
04-12-2011, 09:28 AM
This is the best thing about running your own business. You tell the customer no. No you cannot get a discount on that product.

"Come on buddy, you know you could do it."

"No sir, that's the final price plus you pay the tax."

"Your competitor up the street said he'd deliver it for free and I don't pay the tax."

"Im sorry sir, if you'd like to purchase this item I'll be happy to sell it to you, but you're not getting a discount, you're paying the tax and the delivery fee."

"Ok, you call your boss and tell him I'm not going to buy because you wont price match."

"Sir I am the boss and we both know they didn't offer you a discounted price on that item. If they did, my competitor would have closed the sale and you wouldn't be in here."

Then resell yourself, resell the product, offer discounted delivery, collect his money.

-Tempurpedic by the way-

To anyone wanting a discount at a major retailer just ask to speak to the store manager. Be polite and dignified. Speak confidently and mention you know there is a 50% + mark up on said item and that you just want a small (15%) discount and that you're paying cash.

It works almost every time.


And on topic.... if nobody has the balls to tell the customer "NO!" of course the retailer gets walked all over. Let them get roudy and huff and puff... its all posturing.

Don't want to take a loss? Grow a set!

RyanRSheets
04-12-2011, 10:33 AM
I don't have a problem with it, I just think the lady is obnoxious and inconsiderate to clear the entire supply of mustard like she did, and I think the business should always be free to tell people like her to get bent.