Have you seen this 'Progressives for Ron Paul' site lately?

[sailingaway]

The author came on here once and was probably chased off forever by those eager to argue, but he/she still works his/her site.....

http://progressivesforronpaul.blogspot.com/

[KurtBoyer25L]

Yes, and I'm working on a similar site myself. It's a damn shame how derisive and insulting many posters were to this cat. We're supposed to be the tolerant ones, and we can't afford to cast away support from liberals.

[libertybrewcity]

Yes, and I'm working on a similar site myself. It's a damn shame how derisive and insulting many posters were to this cat. We're supposed to be the tolerant ones, and we can't afford to cast away support from liberals.

Well I haven't been insulting, but a progressive converting strategy is not the way to go. I've been making this argument for a while now:

For the time it takes to convert one democrat, you could fly to Iowa, knock on doors, get at least 100 Iowa Republicans to pledge support to Ron Paul, and fly back home.

Seriously, I worked on the John Dennis campaign. 19% of the vote for millions spent. The door was routinely slammed in my face at the mention of even the prefix "Re.."(publican).

To win this thing we need to become precinct captains, go door to door with literature, and donate money.

I'm not trying to stifle the grassroots here. If it's your thing, by all means do it; but if we're serious about this, we can do it with a simple strategy.

[KurtBoyer25L]

But why is it either-or? Why can't I go to Iowa, knock on Republican doors and also try to persuade independents and liberals in Iowa (and everywhere else)?

[TheeJoeGlass]

I have no problem turning liberals. It will not help with the primaries, but would in the general election. Nothing wrong with thinking forward a little.

[heavenlyboy34]

I have no problem turning liberals. It will not help with the primaries, but would in the general election. Nothing wrong with thinking forward a little.
Cool. I personally helped push a left-liberal democrat into the RP camp in 2008, but he was already quite enthused about RP-esque libertarianism because RP talked about key issues like ending the wars. Persuading hardcore partisans will be more difficult.

[nayjevin]

Understanding the nature of the primary process where you plan to work, get in where ya fit in!

[Vessol]

How did we chase Progressive4Paul off? We debated him pretty harshly, but you should be willing to take harsh rhetorical debates and defend your stance if you truly believe in it.

I imagine he just doesn't have the time to sit here and debate. Nothing wrong with that, but I didn't think we "chased him off"

[KurtBoyer25L]

I have no problem turning liberals. It will not help with the primaries, but would in the general election. Nothing wrong with thinking forward a little.

I disagree completely. Our best chance to get over the top in the primaries is to convert, motivate & usher independents who don't normally vote in them. Many independents I know are left-leaning or at least consider themselves "liberal on social issues." If one isn't afraid of a simple word, you find out that such independents are not necessarily self-proclaimed economic experts with big stubborn ideas about taxing and spending. They are, however, anti-racist, anti-homophobic, anti-corporatist & pro-free speech, and the Republican party/conservative movement is perceived (fairly or not) as pro-racism, pro-censorship, anti-gay rights, pro-prison for weed smokers, etc. The "liberal" position on a social issue is synonymous with the "tolerant" position. I'm not talking about the reality but about public perception.

Once you convince independents that this image is deceptive, Ron Paul is a fairly easy sell. Among the people I know, I've converted seven independents and only two registered Republicans.

Ron Paul has unique, unprecedented appeal with independents and social liberals. His campaign style also turns every voter into a potential activist. This can work exponentially like Invasion of the Body Snatchers. We'll die a slow death trying to convince only mainstream republicans in their 60s, clutching Bibles and SS checks. Let's try to convince everyone over 18 to go vote for the man.

And it defies logic to say if we walk into some anarchist punk rock show in Iowa City and hand out literature about a pro-weed, pro-gay tolerance, pro-unpopular speech, anti-war, anti-patriot act, anti-corporatist libertarian we won't motivate any kids to do anything for our side. We should be open-minded about what our movement can represent to different individuals.

[DDkrutsinger]

I disagree completely. Our best chance to get over the top in the primaries is to convert, motivate & usher independents who don't normally vote in them....

And it defies logic to say if we walk into some anarchist punk rock show in Iowa City and hand out literature about a pro-weed, pro-gay tolerance, pro-unpopular speech, anti-war, anti-patriot act, anti-corporatist libertarian we won't motivate any kids to do anything for our side. We should be open-minded about what our movement can represent to different individuals.

I agree, with the way primaries are set up, reaching out to those outside the party can be a winning strategy.

I actually live in Iowa City, Iowa, and have had some success on the local level reaching out to non-Republicans for RP. So I am taking it a little more national as well. I have developled a website that can be used as a tool for this. republican4aday.com It is named after the fact that you can register as a Republican as you enter the caucus. So if a Dem wanted to caucus for Paul, he could change his registration that day at 'the polling place' then change back the next business day. He could literally be a Republican for a day. Each state's rules are a bit different. The site is designed to make the case to non-republicans to vote for Paul (or Johnson) in the primary, and will have complete state by state rules and important deadline dates if needed.

It is a work in progress, but I think it will end up being a useful tool. I think many Dems, Libertarians, Independents would like to support Paul, but are not aware that they can do this. This site will tell them how, and in a way give them permission.

Republican4aday.com

Check it out, like it on FB/Twitter, post a link on FB, tell your friends and family, use it as a tool to widen the support for RP.

[Gumba of Liberty]

I disagree completely. Our best chance to get over the top in the primaries is to convert, motivate & usher independents who don't normally vote in them. Many independents I know are left-leaning or at least consider themselves "liberal on social issues." If one isn't afraid of a simple word, you find out that such independents are not necessarily self-proclaimed economic experts with big stubborn ideas about taxing and spending. They are, however, anti-racist, anti-homophobic, anti-corporatist & pro-free speech, and the Republican party/conservative movement is perceived (fairly or not) as pro-racism, pro-censorship, anti-gay rights, pro-prison for weed smokers, etc. The "liberal" position on a social issue is synonymous with the "tolerant" position. I'm not talking about the reality but about public perception.

Once you convince independents that this image is deceptive, Ron Paul is a fairly easy sell. Among the people I know, I've converted seven independents and only two registered Republicans.

Ron Paul has unique, unprecedented appeal with independents and social liberals. His campaign style also turns every voter into a potential activist. This can work exponentially like Invasion of the Body Snatchers. We'll die a slow death trying to convince only mainstream republicans in their 60s, clutching Bibles and SS checks. Let's try to convince everyone over 18 to go vote for the man.

And it defies logic to say if we walk into some anarchist punk rock show in Iowa City and hand out literature about a pro-weed, pro-gay tolerance, pro-unpopular speech, anti-war, anti-patriot act, anti-corporatist libertarian we won't motivate any kids to do anything for our side. We should be open-minded about what our movement can represent to different individuals.

This.

[VBRonPaulFan]

It's pretty easy to turn independents either way, that's why they're independents. They don't spend a lot of time thinking about ideology and their political stances on things.

Liberals who are more set in their views are much harder, in my experience, to turn to Ron Paul because they've got this notion ingrained in their brain that people will always fundamentally do the wrong thing and you need regulations/big government to keep those who would steamroll others in place.

[Dreamofunity]

I run with the assumption that Ron's campaign, if he were to run again, would be educational - and should be. Limiting our outreach, and especially limiting our message, to Republican primary voters is a detriment to the whole of the liberty movement. Going after primary voters, having Ron do well in the primary, etc are all important goals, and I wish any of those working to achieve those the best of luck (YAY division of labor) but I personally feel it's too short sighted. To limit the message on the anti-war front as to not scare away Republicans, or even limit it on the civil liberties aspect to not scare them away is not a viable long term goal.

I want Ron to come out as a hardcore anti-war libertarian. That voice is needed.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

We need to make a deal with Ron Paul. He is willing and we've got nothing to lose. Before you jump all over me with the obvious, let me say that the libertarian fantasy of laizzez-fairy tales is just that. There is no way that we make massive tax, spending and regulation cuts and get anything but massive unemployment and dog eat dog economic Darwinism.

I, for one, am tired of this ridiculous meme. We HAVE dog-eat-dog economic Darwinism NOW and its BECAUSE of government intervention. Its time for Progressives to get their blinders off and realize this. Yes, I do think we can work with them, but the idea that somehow massive spending by the government on 'infrastructure' is somehow going to lead to anything OTHER THAN graft, crime and inflation is fantasy.

[sailingaway]

But why is it either-or? Why can't I go to Iowa, knock on Republican doors and also try to persuade independents and liberals in Iowa (and everywhere else)?

This. Only so many GOP are receptive and a bunch of independents/dems are but have never thought of registering in the primary. If you look at Ron's poll numbers, his support is much higher with independents and dems than other GOP candidates, and one pPP poll had his support nearly LEVEL accross the three groups. Ron practically IS the independent candidate in some polls. Ignoring them is a mistake. this isn't any other Republican.. No other Republican polls like Ron does. That was the REASON this poll came out like this (I saw it before most of it went behind the subscription wall): http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2012/election_2012_barack_obama_42_ron_paul_41 and without the independents he won't get the nomination, because many of the most conservative/most revolted by Bush GOP left to become independents and they are the ones we need.

[JCLibertarian]

I have no problem turning liberals. It will not help with the primaries, but would in the general election. Nothing wrong with thinking forward a little.

Are "liberals" incapable of registering Republican for a primary? I don't think so, in fact, I know two former democrats who are reregistering to vote for Ron Paul this time around. So anyone can vote in any primary what we need to do is get as many people regardless of party affiliation right now to reregister to vote for Paul if they respond positively to his ideas.

[erowe1]

It's a damn shame how derisive and insulting many posters were to this cat.

What did they say that was derisive and insulting?

[sailingaway]

What did they say that was derisive and insulting?

Just the usual bit about being an idiot for thinking what he thought when everyone knew it was stupid...it was more the volume jumping on this one poor guy....

[Sola_Fide]

My 2 cents about the whole thing is that the Progressives4Paul guy came here with the most eggregious economic errors....it was a difficult nut to crack.

What a lot of the differences boil down to is whether or not you have a sound view of economics. I think you will find that most people on the right or the left will disagree with us because they are economic interventionists in one way or another.

[pcosmar]

Education +1000

Progressives? liberals? conservatives?
Ba humbug. and gobbledegook

until folks reject nanny state socialism they will not grasp the concept of liberty.

[sailingaway]

My 2 cents about the whole thing is that the Progressives4Paul guy came here with the most eggregious economic errors....it was a difficult nut to crack.

What a lot of the differences boil down to is whether or not you have a sound view of economics. I think you will find that most people on the right or the left will disagree with us because they are economic interventionists in one way or another.

Um... I think it boiled down to whether we have an absolute need to make people think what we think when they are offering an alliance. I think he might have been more receptive to learning stuff on his own, gradually, than to massive numbers of challenges at once just saying he was wrong. I'm not saying he was right, I'm just saying he was a guest and we shut him down, imho.

[Sola_Fide]

Um... I think it boiled down to whether we have an absolute need to make people think what we think when they are offering an alliance. I think he might have been more receptive to learning stuff on his own, gradually, than to massive numbers of challenges at once just saying he was wrong. I'm not saying he was right, I'm just saying he was a guest and we shut him down, imho.

Yeah, we did. We libertarians have a bad habit of being sticklers for economic purity. I don't know if that is good or bad...

[sailingaway]

Yeah, we did. We libertarians have a bad habit of being sticklers for economic purity. I don't know if that is good or bad...

I'm not saying it's either. It just has consequences.

[thedude]

Say what you will, but I think this idea has merit.

http://progressivesforronpaul.blogspot.com/2011/03/one-last-gasp.html

Furthermore, I have witnessed how defensive some can be with those who offer differing opinions and strategies. It's like debating religion, or with "truthers". I'm not privy to the debates with this individual, so I am only speculating. I have personally been on the receiving end of many ad homs for offering up alternate solutions myself, so I know how it feels. One cannot simply "hold his/her stance" against an army of those whose minds are already made up. He was probably backed into a corner by the masses, and you can only fight so hard before the bruises overcome any momentum that had initially existed and even the motivation to continue. What is so wrong with teaming up with disenfranchised liberals where we do happen to agree? Do we all have to have the same mindset to move forward? I doubt anybody here has the same exact political beliefs as the person next to him/her. Why can't we agree to disagree on some issues but team up on those we do agree? Why is it always "my way or the highway"? Let us not focus on converting others, but working alongside them. We're all in this boat together, and we're all headed for that waterfall together. Instead of rowing on different sides which keeps us on this straight and deadly path, let us come together to turn this thing around. This is my opinion, anyway...

[acptulsa]

The funny thing is that any liberal who comes here has given up on the federal government and wants to get it the hell out of the way so his or her state can do something worthwhile. Now, if this person doesn't happen to live in your state, this person is no way, shape or form your enemy. This person is your ally.

This isn't a hard concept.

[IDefendThePlatform]

I like his website, and its a good idea, but I draw the line when he wants RP to compromise on economic policy. And I don't think anyone was overly rude, just very unreceptive to this concept when he posted it.

Hopefully he'll be back.

[MaxPower]

How did we chase Progressive4Paul off? We debated him pretty harshly, but you should be willing to take harsh rhetorical debates and defend your stance if you truly believe in it.

I imagine he just doesn't have the time to sit here and debate. Nothing wrong with that, but I didn't think we "chased him off"
More than a couple people were downright crass and derisive towards him.

[sailingaway]

More than a couple people were downright crass and derisive towards him.

It was about 20 to 1, as well.

[IDefendThePlatform]

The derisiveness must have been in an earlier thread, cuz this is the last thread he started and commented on:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?286617-The-bottom-line&highlight=progressiveforpaul

Nothing there looks rude to me. Just 5 "no" votes.

[Mordan]

Education +1000

Progressives? liberals? conservatives?
Ba humbug. and gobbledegook

until folks reject nanny state socialism they will not grasp the concept of liberty.

Alaska universal allocation?

Liberty in theory or in practice? Slaved to a wage to eat.

[MaxPower]

Um... I think it boiled down to whether we have an absolute need to make people think what we think when they are offering an alliance. I think he might have been more receptive to learning stuff on his own, gradually, than to massive numbers of challenges at once just saying he was wrong. I'm not saying he was right, I'm just saying he was a guest and we shut him down, imho.
I did send him a message apologizing for some of the treatment he was receiving and encouraging him to keep up the good fight, and he thanked me. Hopefully he isn't close to throwing up his hands and abandoning the cause.

[MaxPower]

The derisiveness must have been in an earlier thread, cuz this is the last thread he started and commented on:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?286617-The-bottom-line&highlight=progressiveforpaul

Nothing there looks rude to me. Just 5 "no" votes.
It was the "How Ron Paul Libertarians Can Better Communicate With Progressives" (at least a near-quote of the title, there) which drew the most negative response.

[IDefendThePlatform]

Ok after reviewing about half of that thread Im still proud of 95+% of what was posted. Yes, debating a potential ally requires some tact, but i don't think he was going to be happy until someone on our side agreed to compromise, which IMHO would have been a bigger mistake.

[sailingaway]

Sometimes you have more allies if you overlook differences and work together where you agree, rather than insist on challenging their differences.

Just saying...

[MaxPower]

Ok after reviewing about half of that thread Im still proud of 95+% of what was posted. Yes, debating a potential ally requires some tact, but i don't think he was going to be happy until someone on our side agreed to compromise, which IMHO would have been a bigger mistake.
I was referencing remarks such as:

10 ways Ron Paul libertarians can better communicate with progressives

1. Kiss progressive ass
2. Kiss progressive ass
3. Kiss progressive ass
4. Kiss progressive ass
5. Kiss progressive ass
6. Kiss progressive ass
7. Kiss progressive ass
8. Kiss progressive ass
9. Kiss progressive ass
10. Kiss progressive ass
and
11. Watch them vote for Bush on steroids (Obama)


This is so full of fail.


These are the sorts of unnecessary, un-constructive put-downs which are only liable to pointlessly alienate someone from our own cause.

[MaxPower]

Ok after reviewing about half of that thread Im still proud of 95+% of what was posted. Yes, debating a potential ally requires some tact, but i don't think he was going to be happy until someone on our side agreed to compromise, which IMHO would have been a bigger mistake.
I was referencing remarks such as:

10 ways Ron Paul libertarians can better communicate with progressives

1. Kiss progressive ass
2. Kiss progressive ass
3. Kiss progressive ass
4. Kiss progressive ass
5. Kiss progressive ass
6. Kiss progressive ass
7. Kiss progressive ass
8. Kiss progressive ass
9. Kiss progressive ass
10. Kiss progressive ass
and
11. Watch them vote for Bush on steroids (Obama)


This is so full of fail.


These are the sorts of unnecessary, un-constructive put-downs which are only liable to pointlessly alienate someone from our own cause.

[IDefendThePlatform]

I was referencing remarks such as:




These are the sorts of unnecessary, un-constructive put-downs which are only liable to pointlessly alienate someone from our own cause.

Ok, I didn't see that one. lol yeah that's not helpful.

[Sola_Fide]

I was referencing remarks such as:




These are the sorts of unnecessary, un-constructive put-downs which are only liable to pointlessly alienate someone from our own cause.


I kinda lol'd at that post:)

[jtstellar]

ugh you going to throw the effort of 10 people to convert libs who care to come on here and argue individually, do so one person by one person? i'm glad you don't operate a company because that's the worst efficiency ever.. imo most intelligent liberals worth/capable of converting will do so by simply watching unfiltered, undigested videos of ron paul speeches on their own without having to take the time to argue.. those that do, likely are desperate for people to talk to more than they are interested in ideologies.. i've seen progressives turn a debate into some kind of a casual chat at the end.. it's like you're arguing with her about some important financial decision and she suddenly cuts you off and asks you if you want a cup of coffee or like what she's wearing.. brain dead or gone

[libertybrewcity]

But why is it either-or? Why can't I go to Iowa, knock on Republican doors and also try to persuade independents and liberals in Iowa (and everywhere else)?
You can, but guess who votes in Republican Primaries??? REPUBLICANS. On primary days, millions of Republican voters will head to the polls to vote. We can persuade independents all we want, but in the end the base of the party will choose the nominee. We have a better chance of persuading Palin-Republicans than getting leftists to stand in a Republican caucus for five hours, or even register as a republican.


I have no problem turning liberals. It will not help with the primaries, but would in the general election. Nothing wrong with thinking forward a little.

Exactly, it will not help with the primaries. Primary elections are won by actually going after those who will vote in that party's primary.

I disagree completely. Our best chance to get over the top in the primaries is to convert, motivate & usher independents who don't normally vote in them. Many independents I know are left-leaning or at least consider themselves "liberal on social issues." If one isn't afraid of a simple word, you find out that such independents are not necessarily self-proclaimed economic experts with big stubborn ideas about taxing and spending. They are, however, anti-racist, anti-homophobic, anti-corporatist & pro-free speech, and the Republican party/conservative movement is perceived (fairly or not) as pro-racism, pro-censorship, anti-gay rights, pro-prison for weed smokers, etc. The "liberal" position on a social issue is synonymous with the "tolerant" position. I'm not talking about the reality but about public perception.

Once you convince independents that this image is deceptive, Ron Paul is a fairly easy sell. Among the people I know, I've converted seven independents and only two registered Republicans.

Ron Paul has unique, unprecedented appeal with independents and social liberals. His campaign style also turns every voter into a potential activist. This can work exponentially like Invasion of the Body Snatchers. We'll die a slow death trying to convince only mainstream republicans in their 60s, clutching Bibles and SS checks. Let's try to convince everyone over 18 to go vote for the man.


Liberals might like some aspects of RP, but in the end RP Republicans have more in common with those mainstream republicans in their 60s clutching Bibles and SS checks than we do with some pro-civil liberties democrats who also like regulations on everything from the environment to education to health. The fact of the matter is Republicans are more likely to vote for Republicans, and Democrats are more likely to vote for democrats.

[KurtBoyer25L]

You can, but guess who votes in Republican Primaries??? REPUBLICANS. On primary days, millions of Republican voters will head to the polls to vote. We can persuade independents all we want, but in the end the base of the party will choose the nominee. We have a better chance of persuading Palin-Republicans than getting leftists to stand in a Republican caucus for five hours, or even register as a republican.


Primary elections are won by actually going after those who will vote in that party's primary.

Liberals might like some aspects of RP, but in the end RP Republicans have more in common with those mainstream republicans in their 60s clutching Bibles and SS checks than we do with some pro-civil liberties democrats who also like regulations on everything from the environment to education to health. The fact of the matter is Republicans are more likely to vote for Republicans, and Democrats are more likely to vote for democrats.

But if these mainstream Republicans dislike regulations, why have they consistently supported & helped to elect candidates for President, Senate, House, Judge, State Rep etc. who agree with the democrats exactly on regulatory principle? All mainstream politics carry an implied support for almost all Federal regulations. It's bi-partisan. Liberals and "conservatives" agree on it. The issue still falls largely unquestioned despite all of our efforts.

120,000 people (or thereabouts) voted in the 2008 Iowa primary, and 12,000 or so voted for Ron. The overall # of voters was up from 80,000 previously. Let's say there are 200,000 voters this time around, to be safe. If the 12,000 people who voted for Ron in 2008 (and one thing we know about this movement is once you're down with it, you're down with it) average converting *five* people, who did not vote in the GOP primary in '08, to come out to the polls (Republican for a day/week if necess'ry) for Ron in 2012, that would total 72,000 votes, or 36% of those 200,000 voting. Iowa front-runner Huckabee is currently polling at 21% among likely voters, aka not the people we're talking about converting. If that sounds farfetched, consider that as a fairly antisocial & unpopular person I've convinced 7 independents (including some hippie types) to go vote for Ron in the primary (in addition to two Republicans) and I haven't really gotten serious about it, yet. I'm sure many individuals reading have had similar good "trial" experiences w/ friends and family.

More to the point, I'm working on some hardened liberals to do it as well. Making progress! They know that Obama will rout his primary and might want to prevent a neoconservative jerkoff like Mitt Romney (or an "idiot" *attribution Tom Leykis* like Sarah Palin) from becoming President in the event of a Republican win in '12. In both converting independents & liberals to the cause, Ron's recent exposure has helped.

I'm not saying one won't have to keep ON some people to actually go through with it...and maybe even Aqua Buddha-Nap them on election day. I envision getting rides & doughnuts for everyone if necessary, shelling out cash & holding hands. But I think a Ron Paul victory in 2012 is worth that kind of temporary inconvenience, don't you?

[acptulsa]

The fact of the matter is Republicans are more likely to vote for Republicans, and Democrats are more likely to vote for democrats.

Don't you think it would be a good selling point to rank-and-file Republicans that our man can beat Obama? Come on, do you see Romney beating him? Newt? Really? We have the man who can win the general--but for that to be guaranteed, we have to keep the campfires burning while you keep the home fires burning. So tell me, is it a selling point worth having?

You know Republicans love to win.

[progressiveforpaul]

I am still around. I appreciate all of your comments.... I hope to respond to as many as possible. I have a full time job that keeps me pretty busy and I had no idea how much my blog would take off. It's getting a bit difficult keeping up. I just now discovered this thread. I do try to check in here every day but I just can't stay very long. Let's keep talking and I'll try to say something now and again. Thanks for telling all your liberal/progressive friends to visit my blog. Hopefully, it will help get more people to consider him seriously. Peace.

[Inkblots]

^ Yep, I well know that there are only so many hours in day. Keep up the good work!