My debate with a fellow Ron Paul supporter regarding the birther issue.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

Me: My question is why is it that you guys all of a sudden have questions about Obama's citizenship? Why not Bush's, Clinton's, Reagan's, the hundred's of senators and house reps, etc. I am a Ron Paul supporter and believer in liberty, but I ju...st do not buy into this birther issue. If anything, it gives the liberal establishment more ammunition to pain the liberty movement as a bunch of crazies and racists. He will never show his BC because as long as birthers are out there it helps him paint the tea party, republicans, and libertarians as nut jobs.

Him: "but if it's true it should be pursued. We should know the truth and we should follow the rule, we should follow the law, we should follow what the Constitution says about who is qualified to be President."
- Ron Paul
http://www.yout...ube.com/watch?v=CoQ3kO9xzcs#t=1m30s

Him: ...Bush's wife, Clinton's wife, Reagan's wife, etc never said Kenya is their husband's home country...like Michelle did
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M7Rp_Ghv6k

Me: You are missing the point. I am not here to argue if Obama is, or is not a natural born citizen of the US. I am just saying that the issue has come to point to where it will only be used TO HURT OUR CAUSE. The national media will never truly investigate it. And I am sure the liberal establishment only smiles every time it is mentioned.

Him: The governor of Hawaii was afraid this issue was going to hurt Obama's chances of being re-elected...that's why he went looking for the birth certificate...with the purpose of "torpedoing the birthers" in his own words...and failed to find it. I think the other more controversial issues Ron Paul talks about...like legalizing pot...hurts the cause more than this.

Me: Well, marijuana should be legalized, and the War on Drugs should be ended. If anything, that is what has peaked interest in the liberty movement. On top of that we actually have a chance to tackle the so called war on drugs. But the birther issue will never be handled because Obama will never show it, and no one will ever force him to produce it because he is the face of the establishment. It's pointless fight and only hurts us.

Thoughts?

[low preference guy]

Thoughts?

I think you should leave alone people who question him. At least they don't want to fight the war on drugs on you or support bombing other countries. Those are the people whose minds you need to change. Someone who believes Obama should show his birth certificate doesn't do you any harm, but statist policies do harm you.

[specsaregood]

Plenty of people here objected to McCains candidacy on the same exact grounds.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

I think you should leave alone people who question him. At least they don't want to fight the war on drugs on you or support bombing other countries. Those are the people whose minds you need to change. Someone who believes Obama should show his birth certificate doesn't do you any harm, but statist policies do harm you.

Not saying they do me harm. They dont effect me one way or another. What I am saying I think it hurts the movement. Once Ron Paul 2012 gets rolling you better believe the media will be searching for every RP supporter who is a birther and putting them on camera.

[Agorism]

Just stay away from this issue as the whole thing has become ridiculous.

[madfoot]

I've never seen that video of Michelle, and I was a little surprised. But I agree that the birther issue hurts the right, ourselves included. Frankly, I think that answers the question of "Why doesn't he release his birth certificate?" pretty well. He already released his short-form certificate. If he was interested in being nice and alleviating people's fears (if he was born in Hawaii), he'd release the long-form one too. But, politically, he has a very strong incentive not to release the birth certificate - the birther issue being as strong as it is among the Republican base, he puts Republicans in a very uncomfortable position of having to pay lip service to a belief that effectively discredits them on the national scale.

[low preference guy]

Not saying they do me harm. They dont effect me one way or another. What I am saying I think it hurts the movement. Once Ron Paul 2012 gets rolling you better believe the media will be searching for every RP supporter who is a birther and putting them on camera.

I don't believe so. When the economy is in shambles, people aren't going to pay attention to a gotcha moment about someone who isn't even the candidate.

Plus, this is an obvious political strategy by Obama to demonize people. He either doesn't have a birth certificate or doesn't show it to demonize people and avoid talking about the important issues. People will not stop questioning his birth certificate no matter what you tell them, until the media asks Obama why he uses this issue to demonize people instead of talking about the important issues, why doesn't he just release it to shut them up.

And I don't think Ron Paul will be hurt if an isolated supporter demands to see a certificate, considering that Chris Matthews, Sean Hannity, and Donald Trump asked to see it too.

[acptulsa]

I'd be inclined to tell him I'm tired of the subject and ready to talk about Declarations of War.

Leave the other to the trumpheads. If anyone objects, show them the threads here (if they're still in the archives) about McCain and the Republic of Panama.

[specsaregood]

./

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Born here or not, the mutherfucker could come out tomorrow and declare publicly that he was born in Kenya and show proof and it wouldn't matter. He would not be Impeached nor Removed. I'd be willing to bet that SCOTUS would not overturn a single law enacted under him even in spite of this. I'm more inclined to nail his testicles to the floorboards over the illegal war. At least that has SOME, however small, tangible Left/Right crossover.

[Carson]

Thoughts?

I didn't read the article but it sounds like you resorted to name calling in the title.

[dannno]

Not saying they do me harm. They dont effect me one way or another. What I am saying I think it hurts the movement. Once Ron Paul 2012 gets rolling you better believe the media will be searching for every RP supporter who is a birther and putting them on camera.

The media is using that narrative, but eventually it will probably turn on them.

[madfoot]

I'd be inclined to tell him I'm tired of the subject and ready to talk about Declarations of War.

Leave the other to the trumpheads. If anyone objects, show them the threads here (if they're still in the archives) about McCain and the Republic of Panama.

It just occurred to me now would be a good chance for us to pass the birther stuff entirely onto Trump. Which is possibly unfair to him, but it'd be a good way to get rid of an easy smear and really get the debate rolling on serious policy issues like welfare and defense spending.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

I didn't read the article but it sounds like you resorted to name calling in the title.

huh?

[Inkblots]

Thoughts?

My advice to Birthers is the same as my advice to Truthers: I may not be able to convince you that you're wrong; that's fine. But it is absolutely true that by talking about these things in conjunction with Ron Paul's campaign, you hurt his candidacy's chances with 90% of voters.

People try to besmirch Ron Paul's good name by smearing him with the views of groups of his followers. They will do this in any case, but the less true the generalizations they try to make against Ron Paul's supporters, the more obviously desperate they will appear, and the more they will backfire. Contrariwise, the more true they are in general, the more effective the smears will be at turning off mainstream voters.

Now, if Ron Paul becomes President, that would be a huge and immediate victory for liberty in the country, probably unrivaled by any development in more than 100 years. So, if you really believe in these conspiracies, and you really want to show off your deep knowledge of them at every opportunity, you really need to ask yourself one question: do you want to be right, or do you want to be free?

And since in a free society the truth will out in any case, I should think the answer would be obvious.

[Carson]

huh?

Birther

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

Birther

Oh, I didn't know this what a derogatory term.

[Carson]

Oh, I didn't know this what a derogatory term.

Then my apologies.

Usually when it is used it sounds derogatory to me.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I'd be inclined to tell him I'm tired of the subject and ready to talk about Declarations of War.

If you are not going to accept the constitution and the rule of law in it's entirety...

...willing to pursue truth and justice on every matter of law

...there is no point talking about other parts of the constitution such as war.

Either the constitution and the rule of law is 100% bullshit or 100% valid.

[lynnf]

Thoughts?

you are wrong about so much it's hard to know where to start, so I'll go with the biggest - this didn't happen all of a sudden. Phil Berg (a Democrat, by the way) was looking at this in June of 2008 even before the Great O had the nomination. maybe you only HEARD about it lately because the lamestream media is firmly in the Great O camp.

lynn

[Stary Hickory]

you are wrong about so much it's hard to know where to start, so I'll go with the biggest - this didn't happen all of a sudden. Phil Berg (a Democrat, by the way) was looking at this in June of 2008 even before the Great O had the nomination. maybe you only HEARD about it lately because the lamestream media is firmly in the Great O camp.

lynn

Exactly this issue was discussed before Obama was anointed POTUS by the media. What we saw was attempts to verbally intimidate and ridicule anyone who brought the issue up. This was nothing more than am attempt to stifle inquiry and questioning about a legitimate issue. One that if was true meant our POTUS was forging documents or presenting false information to the public to ensure his election.

The media and many people even here(sad to say) went on a ridiculing offensive that transcended logical attempts at discussion. People who proclaim to be seekers of the truth tried their best to prevent it from even coming to the light.

The only thing we can know for sure, is that many people have said Obama is not who he says he is including his own Grandmother who died quickly after being telephoned and asked about it. Now we can not say for sure what is going on, there is plenty of reason to harbor doubts and suspicions. Obama's actions are typical of someone hiding something from the public, and it has not helped him in the political arena. It is a constitutional requirement that many other presidents and presidential hopefuls before him were more than happy to show that they are complying with the law.

If Obama is found to be lying I am all for immediate impeachment and repeals of legislation he has had a hand in. The thing is if you believe it is ok to selectively ignore the Constitution come out and say so. If you are running for office in blatant disregard for the rules in the Constituion, come out and say so. This is ridiculous Obama may have(may as we know nothing for sure) lied to get into office, defrauding American voters whilst the media defended him like attack dogs resorting to name calling to try and intimidate anyone questioning the matter.

Time will tell what is going on with Obama, he has spent millions to keep this hidden, and sat by why military members got court martialed trying to uncover the truth when the simple presentation of one piece of paper would resolve everything. I do not care if I hated the military with every fiber in my body I would not sit by and let a man lose his career and face criminal penalties out of my own pride..if this is indeed what it is. It would have to be some twisted sociopathic type of self adoration if you ask me.

Not to mention,.I would not serve the public as POTUS and let doubts linger in their minds over such a trivial issue if I could so easily resolve the problem. To not do so is almost to show disdain and contempt for those you are imposing your will on. It really is outrageous, either way this goes. If he is telling the truth he has acted shamefully and if he has been lying it is even worse.

[acptulsa]

Either the constitution and the rule of law is 100% bullshit or 100% valid.

You know that and I know that. But most of these people have no idea that they're the frog in the water and they almost have us up to boiling temperature. Years ago, people actually did get upset about Constitutional questions, though not upset enough (obviously), that would barely rate a yawn today.

I think they're a nice set. Who cares about the birther issue? Well, if they'll ignore that, they'll ignore Congress whenever there's someone in it who might demand a debate on whether or not we need a third war. And if we let them get away with this, then that, what next? Will they invade our privacy via our cell phones--and refuse to repeal it even if we elect someone because they promised to?

[Stary Hickory]

You know that and I know that. But most of these people have no idea that they're the frog in the water and they almost have us up to boiling temperature. Years ago, people actually did get upset about Constitutional questions, though not upset enough (obviously), that would barely rate a yawn today.

I think they're a nice set. Who cares about the birther issue? Well, if they'll ignore that, they'll ignore Congress whenever there's someone in it who might demand a debate on whether or not we need a third war. And if we let them get away with this, then that, what next? Will they invade our privacy via our cell phones--and refuse to repeal it even if we elect someone because they promised to?

The thing is this, the same people who are saying "who cares?", were the ones laughing, name calling, verbally assaulting people during the elections when it did matter...they did not want the public to make an informed decision. Now these same people are backing away from the issue because it has gotten quite odd Obama has acted very suspiciously and is becoming virtually impossible to defend on this issue....now these people have gone into the "who cares" argument.

What we see is a pattern to protect a president, it has nothing to do with the real issue. With both arguments you have people trying to either prevent discovery or minimize the impact of this hypothetical discovery. It would not be hard to find hypocrites who vehemently attacked the validity of such questioning as ridiculous previously and now who are saying the possible affirmation of these doubts is not really important.

[acptulsa]

It would not be hard to find hypocrites who vehemently attacked the validity of such questioning as ridiculous previously and now who are saying the possible affirmation of these doubts is not really important.

And, unfortunately, at this point they actually have an argument. Replacing Obama with Biden wouldn't make any difference whatsoever.

I suppose you could argue Biden would be disposed to behave, or disposed of, but it would make little other policy difference.

[Stary Hickory]

And, unfortunately, at this point they actually have an argument. Replacing Obama with Biden wouldn't make any difference whatsoever.

I suppose you could argue Biden would be disposed to behave, or disposed of, but it would make little other policy difference.

Well I don't care, as much as I do about some kind of justice being done. I'd rather have Biden than Obama for those reasons alone. I do not think Obama will be reelected as he has done nothing to warrant it.

[acptulsa]

Well I don't care, as much as I do about some kind of justice being done. I'd rather have Biden than Obama for those reasons alone. I do not think Obama will be reelected as he has done nothing to warrant it.

Well, that is one thing. Biden would be even weaker. But I agree that it's a one-term administration either way.

[treyfu]

It does not matter if Obama is the legitimate or illegitimate president of an illegitimate criminal organization. This "issue" should be dropped immediately to focus on destroying the criminal state in all forms.

[Carson]

It does not matter if Obama is the legitimate or illegitimate president of an illegitimate criminal organization. This "issue" should be dropped immediately to focus on destroying the criminal state in all forms.

Perhaps, It does matter if Obama is the legitimate or illegitimate president of an illegitimate criminal organization. This "issue" should be raised immediately to focus on destroying the criminal state in all forms.

[AGRP]

I can see it being an issue....2 years ago!

Now? It's a blatant distraction issue.

Focus on things that matter; things the states doesn't want you to focus on.

*cough* 10th Amendment *cough*

[Zippyjuan]

The only thing we can know for sure, is that many people have said Obama is not who he says he is including his own Grandmother who died quickly after being telephoned and asked about it. Now we can not say for sure what is going on, there is plenty of reason to harbor doubts and suspicions. Obama's actions are typical of someone hiding something from the public, and it has not helped him in the political arena. It is a constitutional requirement that many other presidents and presidential hopefuls before him were more than happy to show that they are complying with the law.



What did his grandmother say (the longer version of the conversation- not the edited one which conveniently leaves off the last part)?
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2009/07/23/liddy

Here's the conversation:


MCRAE: Could I ask her about his actual birthplace? I would like to see his birthplace when I come to Kenya in December. Was she present when he was born in Kenya?

OGOMBE: Yes. She says, yes, she was, she was present when Obama was born.

MCRAE: When I come in December. I would like to come by the place, the hospital, where he was born. Could you tell me where he was born? Was he born in Mombasa?

OGOMBE: No, Obama was not born in Mombasa. He was born in America.

MCRAE: Whereabouts was he born? I thought he was born in Kenya.

OGOMBE: No, he was born in America, not in Mombasa.

MCRAE: Do you know where he was born? I thought he was born in Kenya. I was going to go by and see where he was born.

OGOMBE: Hawaii. Hawaii. Sir, she says he was born in Hawaii. In the state of Hawaii, where his father was also learning, there. The state of Hawaii.



The birther issue and the "Obama is a musilm" issues were simply intended to portray him as "not one of us"- whatever "us" is.

[BlackTerrel]

Good argument Peter Schiff. For those who want to believe it, unfortunately, it will fall on deaf ears.